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Post by jjose712 on Nov 7, 2013 4:18:58 GMT -5
IMO - There are viewers that are still highly upset about happened and are not at all ready to let those feelings go. The interviewer from TBL commented that he's been trying to get an interview with Chandler to get his opinion on what happened for months now. Nothing anybody attempts to say is going to make what happened change. Chandler is still off the show. Guy and Freddie are in the roles of Will and Sonny and the WilSon storyline will still be dull, tedious and bland. chandler will not tell us the truth as he depened on them..not to shut the gate for him so he can act again.. Chandler knows he did a mistake with the post emmy announcement, and tptb could end the situation with more tact, but the rest is history. I understand Chandler not wanting to do interviews about this. He told his part of the story and it's time to move on. Gay couples will never (at least not for a long long time) be treated the same in daytime (with some exceptions like Spartacus, they are not treated the same in prime time either) because they have a very conservative audiences, and frankly, the fans of gay couples don't want them being treated equally either (everytime the words love triangle, wich is a typical soap opera plot, appears, fans react very very bad)
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 6, 2013 18:07:31 GMT -5
Well the truth is Days was way ahead in terms of physical affection than previous american shows, unfortunately the key word is WAS, because relently they are more chaste than poor Luke Snyder
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 6, 2013 17:21:11 GMT -5
Yes, but using sex to humiliate other people has a lot to do with enjoy the situation. A lot of rapist enjoy the humiliation and dominate the victim, but the truth is most victims are women, and most attackers are straight men. Apart of a french movie, i never heard of a case of a gay male rapist and a female victim, and frankly if such case were reported i'm pretty sure it would make news.
Nobody is objecting to the fact that rape is not about sex, but forgetting that it's a sex act is forgetting a lot.
As i say, not all the rapist are the same, in fact Finn (for what we know) doesn't fit into the sexual predator role.
What i say, it's that the whole situation needs to be well explained because a rape is not a fight or a bash. Most people who hate or want to humiliate others don't rape them, so there must be an explanation for Finn's behaviour, and i hope they give us that explanation
And sorry, but the any human is able of everything is bullshit. People is different, not everyone react the same way. I believe under the right circumstances everybody (or almost everybody) is able to kill (wich is very different of being a killer), but pretending that everybody is a potential rapist is simply not true
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 6, 2013 14:37:42 GMT -5
Sorry but that's not totally true. Rape has a lot to do with sexuality. Most rapist are sexual predators.
The fact that JP is gay is irrelevant, in fact a lot of male rape victims are straight, but the fact the agressor is straight is relevant, because that's not common in the kind of rape the show is going to portray.
A straight agressor is not uncommon in closed enviroments when power is very important (prison, army, gangs).
Rape is violence, but sexual violence, so a motivation is needed. He can be drugged or drunk when he met JP and think raping him is the perfect way to shut up him. He can be a psycho, or have some kind of mental disorder. Because that's not a standard reaction to the situation Finn will be
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 6, 2013 9:46:18 GMT -5
I only say that it's a very unusual situation, and that needs a good explanation. It's possible that thing happening in real life? of course it is, but probable it isn't.
There are a good bunch of studies about rape, and rapist are basically two types of persons, the sexual predator (there's no redemption for that type of rapist), and the people who is unable to read the signals on what started as a consensual sexual relationship, basically the typical example of a man (generally young) who is unable to understand that no means no (and that type can be educated to not commit the crime again).
And yes, a lot of rapes (and even more when the victim is a man) are not reported, and yes, the humiliation and domination are big parts of a rape, but a straight raping a man it's very very uncommon without very specific circumstances, and the show seems (or at least that what more articles imply) that a male rape is perfectly common in that circumstances, and sorry, but it's not
And what you describe in New Zealand is far more common, when there's a group with a strong personality leader (and weak followers) it's a lot easier that type of thing happening.
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 6, 2013 6:36:57 GMT -5
Has Craig showed up in spoilers that haven't been posted? Why is he all up and through the Spoilers Discussion. It's weird and very distracting. As a gay person I take offense ate folks saying Doug, Brendan or any person was "straight" until they came out. They were both closeted. And we know that Brendan has been having sex with men since his teens or early twenties so while he was closeted and married, he still couldn't deny his own orientation completely. Doug SAID, it's cannon, written in the script, that he had feelings that he denied because he didn't want to admit he was gay. And he's never had a real girlfriend so he should be defined by how he FEELS and IDENTIFIES, not by what folks want him to be. Doug said he was gay. He said he knew it and he probably has always known it. Maybe folks who aren't gay don't get what the coming out process is like but I suggest educating yourself instead of saying people "turned gay" or "used to be straight" obviously if they are gay now then they were always gay, the just weren't out (to themselves or others) and I think that experience is a real part of the gay and lesbian story and should be shown on screen. Having said all that, we won't know how the rape of JP happens until it happens. All the questions about how and why and when and under what circumstances it happens and how Danny handles it will all be revealed once the storyline actually plays out on screen. So how could anyone possible know whether or not it will be realistic or reasonable? Yes HO is not the best at handling sensitive subjects. But Finn being the culprit and his size or sexual orientation isn't really relevant to whether or not the storyline is well-handled. Everything now is just guessing and conjecture based upon not even a script snippet but folks are being so definite in what will happen and how it will be received, etc. It's weird to have so many "concrete" opinions about something that hasn't even happened yet. There is no formula for rape. Actual rape victims can testify to that. It's not always "big hulking stranger jumps out from the bushes and rapes someone he doesn't know." This whole discussion about Finn reminds me of how folks behave when women rape men. Yes, women rape adult men who under other circumstances might be more physically powerful than them. They rape men the same way men frequently rape other men or women. They drug them or injure them or tie them up. It's just not that strange (unfortunately). People are so focused on Finn's sexual orientation (which is irrelevant, IMO) and his size (the relevance of which we won't know until we see the actual situation) that they're ignoring the central issue which is that JP McQueen will be raped. A horrible thing that regardless of the circumstances will obviously lead to a long and involved storyline for JP, Finn, Robbie and possibly Danny. So for folks wanting JP to have a big storyline, this seems pretty big (potentially). Should our opinions, in the context of this discussion about spoilers, be based upon facts and evidence and actual spoilers, not just random thing folks want to talk about or our own individual biases. It's very frustrating to try to participate in the Spoilers Discussion when it's so full of stuff that isn't a spoiler. Right now, all we know is that Finn rapes JP and Robbie goads him on but is shocked by how far it goes. That's it. That's all we know. We can't actually evaluate the execution of the storyline until we see it. Finn sexual orientation is not irrelevant for the storyline because most males who rape other males are gay or closeted, and the ones who are not are generally under very specific circumstances (jail, army, members of gangs or druggies). I never heard of a case of a straight teen who rape other male. It could be more realistic if the victim was another teenager and it was certain pression of group over Finn, but that's not what is going to happen here. Rape is not a simple act of agression, if someone can't contain his anger it will lead to a physical agression but no to a sexual agression. There are very specific things that lead to that kind of agression. That kind of agressions (when the agressor is not a sexual predator or the type that can accept a no) are usually in groups. Everyone can be a killer under the right circumstances, but not everyone can be a rapist, and frankly, Finn's circumstances are very far from being extreme. The concerns with te rape itself are different. As you say there are multiple possibilites to a small guy like Finn to overpower someone like JP (JP is not that big either), it could attack by surprise, knock him out, drug him, use a weapon, and JP could be semiunconcious or tied during the agression. As you say there's a lot of ways of making realistic. My fear (and i think i'm not the only one) it's that the scene doesn't work that way. It won't be the first time gays are portrayed as weak and unable to defend themselves. Hopefully it won't be the case, because raping someone is not that easy, even when the agressor is way bigger and stronger than the victim (wich is not the case). They say they are not going to show the rape scene, the problem is if they don't show the scene who lead to the rape, because in that case it won't be clear how Finn was able to overpower JP The story can be big, but given the fact of how badly HO dealt with other big storylines with sensitive themes, there are reasons to fear. And frankly, the possibilities of this end being a very frustrating storyline are really high. At least i hope they have very clear what they want to tell, and don't change the storyline for external reactions like they did with Stendan
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 6, 2013 5:29:37 GMT -5
Oh, that's for sure, if there's someone able to shake JP's life that's Craig. But Craig without Guy has no sense (at least not for me), i prefer they find new storylines for John Paul and let Craig in the past
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 5, 2013 15:31:43 GMT -5
Frankly, i doubt JP has a chance of being happy with Craig. The sunset ending was a big mistake, and the writers need to stop listen to fandoms, because that never ends in good writing. Guy was pretty uncomfortable playing a gay role (watching some of the roles he played after Craig i don't think that's an issue anymore) and he is getting jobs, so there's no reason to come back (and without him, there's no reason to bring Craig back to Hollyoaks)
And it's time JP chose a different kind of boyfriend. There are tons and tons of different types who can make his life miserable so there's no reason to always chose the closet case type. JP has a bullying, a rape and a closeted boyfriend with a loving family who is the father of his archenemy, his future looks really bright
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 5, 2013 13:21:42 GMT -5
In fact, Brendan was a hook up (and he was out of the closet when he slept with JP), and Doug was out when he met JP too. In fact Doug was a nice surprise because it's quite obvious JP has a thing for closet cases
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 5, 2013 8:00:56 GMT -5
It's curious how Alex is getting more attention than the people who won the Glee project
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 4, 2013 13:30:26 GMT -5
I hope that DS does a followup interview with the advisor guy from the male rape organization, during the aftermath of this rape storyline to get that advisor's opinion on what has been produced. I just really do not have faith in what the show's attempting to do, after what has happened in the past with other "topic" storylines. It had been YEARS since Kieron brought up the real life case regarding gay domestic abuse, during the time that the Ste character was involved with BB. It was all about love, BB's "pain" and how Ste should have been able to understand it, due to his past actions. Now, when that caracter is gone, Kieron's finally able to talk about that real life case and Ste's saga, when he's accepting an award about GLBT representation for Hollyoaks?! That's exactly my fear. I don't think the set up is correct, and in my opinion without more explanation is very hard to believe that a straight teen decides to rape his teacher (i know rape is about domination, but the truth is that Finn is going to have sex with JP, no matter the intentions), but the main problem is the aftermath. There a lot of thing that can go wrong before and during the rape, but the thing that can go wrong after that are a lot more. I'm tired of soap villains not being punished, i'm tired of violent acts without any consecuences. I know that some classic soap couples started with a rape, but i don't think that's acceptable anymore (well, never was). I put that as example of irresponsible writing on soaps not because i think it will be nothing between JP and Finn after the rape (unfortunately i think there won't be any rapist/victim relationship not because responsible writing but because Finn seem to not be that popular, so probably won't be shippers of that couple). I really doubt they really consult things with advisors before having the storyline writen (i highly doubt and advisor thinks that set up is realistic) but probably for the consecuences for JP after the rape. The problem is they did something similar with Stendan, and once the couple gained popularity they drop up what they are going to tell and changed into the mess we all know. I don't fear they will go that far here, but i wouldn't be surprised if this end with a Finn redemption and JP forgiving him
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 3, 2013 8:52:43 GMT -5
Well, i have serious problems to connect with both characters. In my opinion there's a clear change in Oliver by the middle of the book. At the beginning Aciman show him almost like an intelectual free spirit but by the end of the novel it's pretty clear he is unable to assume his feelings for Elio, wich end in his marriage (wich is not surprising at all). Elio is a character difficult to love, his intelectuality makes him look self entittled, and yes, i think he is gay, even when absolutely nothing in the novel really states that, because he spends half the novel having sex with his girlfriend (poor girl is used all the time), and at the end, nothing tell us that he came out (even when that's the logical deduction). The novel has a lot of positive things, because as i say, i really love Aciman's prose, but i was unable to connect with nobody in the book.
The young adult perspective is not a problem for me, i don't mind young adult novels (i really like the perks of being a wallflower), of course Call me by your name is not a young adult novel, but you can say the same about Someday this pain will be useful to you, and as weird as he is, i find a lot less trouble to connect with his main character.
I read this book two years ago, and i was reading the line of beauty at the same time, and i find ironic that on paper Call me by your name was more my type of book, but i ended liking Hollinhurst's novel way more.
Even when i end being a little annoyed by the constant praising of how a straight man like Aciman could connect with gay sensibilities, it's quite interesting that a straight writer decides to publish a story like this as his first novel (the second one deal with coupling problems in a heterosexual relationship).
Of course i'm not the only one who didn't like the book, i remember reading a blog that describe Call me by your name as the closet cases novel, but the truth is it was almost unanimously praised
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 3, 2013 7:36:24 GMT -5
Frankly, i don't think so. McDean was a good storyline (with all its flaws), but the writers never do any effort to redeem Craig in the way they did to redeem Brendan. Craig was in the middle of the love triangle, but anyway it was JP the central character in their relationship. Ste was barely a sidekick to Brendan, and they changed totally the pace of the storyline, and even decide not to kill Brendan in the end (wich in my opinion was a very bad idea, because it gives hopes of a return, wich frankly reading Emmet interviews seem all but possible).
For some people Craig will be always the real love of JP's life, but that's because it was the first and any of the his other relationships never really had the same intensity. If they find a new man (i doubt Danny will bring nothing more than pain to JP) and the chemistry work, i think Craig ghost will dissapear of JP's future.
I don't think Ste will be so lucky, no matter who the future brings
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 3, 2013 6:19:27 GMT -5
honestly, if y'all have not learned that we as humans ARE NOT PERFECT, at this point, from watching HO (which remains an overarching theme of the show, as a whole) I don't know what else to say? I mean it's one thing to not agree with stories or characters' choices w/i stories, but to continue to judge and condemn characters as if we ourselves have no concept or comprehension of human error is just so wacky to me. LOL anyway, that Craig still has peeps soooooo mad, and sure he'll 'never dare show his face in Chester!' is how I know Craig WILL return, and probably sooner rather than later (well, not immediately. JP's super-duper-awesome-dark-dark-life-altering SL will probably be well-dusted, at that point). I can already see JP married to some awesome dood (hmm, Ste? Probably! LOLOL), all loved-up w/ job and everything in place. The picture of idyllic perfection. And then Craig shows up, and everything is hurled out of whack... i honestly think BK brought back James/JP with the intent to have Craig return, at some point, down the road. JP/Craig's history is honestly the 'gift that keeps on giving' as far as the potential for future, melodramatic mining. You are free to believe that, and in Hollyoaks you never know, but frankly absolutely nothing indicates that, and the fact that JP introduction paints a really bad image of Craig makes me think that Craig is an afterthought for HO producers. And i don't think Guy has any intention to come back, step by step he is building his career, and he never was comfortable playing Craig anyway. And yes, no relationship is idilic in a soap, but Craig was miles away of being a good boyfriend, Spike or Kieron treat JP far better than Craig. And a wedding between Ste and JP is almost surrealistic, a friendship in a future is a posibility, but a wedding, i don't think so. I think Craig like other characters in succesful storylines is way more in the mind of the fans than in the mind of the writers and producers
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 2, 2013 13:47:56 GMT -5
Because Craig/JP was not that, dio. In fact it was a pretty unbalanced relationship that showed good clues about how bad it will be that relationship in the future. It wasn't by any mean in the same cathegory that Stendan, and the story it was far better writen and a lot more entertainning, but Crais was very far from being an ideal boyfriend, in fact, i think he is the worse boyfriend JP had till Danny (Danny has the potential to be even worse), but he has a pass because he was a confused teen.
And of course there's the fact that Guy was pretty uncomfortable playing a gay character and he has other projects. And it would be absurd to recast a character who is out of the show for years, even if he has connections with some characters of the show.
Spoilers indicate a really black future for JP and Ste
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 2, 2013 9:29:07 GMT -5
I don't think so. There's no way they bring Craig back if it's not played by Guy. I wouldn't make any sense, it will be a total backslash for no good reason.
And the way they introduced JP will make quite difficult to present Craig as the savior this time, and Craig is supposely with a woman right now. Frankly i would prefer if they move for the old fanbases, Ste needs to move on from Brendan and JP needs a new and decent boyfriend
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 1, 2013 16:07:32 GMT -5
I must be the only gay male who don't like Call me by your name. It has everything to be liked by me because Aciman is really a good writer, but i couldn't connect with the characters at all. I read a lot of praise of the type "it's fantastic how he really connect with gay sensibility for a straight writer" but i couldn't feel that at all. In fact i really disliked the famous sex scene. At the end i didn't really know if the characters are gay or not. I probably will read other Aciman's novels because i really like his prose, but the story, not that much
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Post by jjose712 on Nov 1, 2013 13:23:39 GMT -5
Today it was a rerurn of one of Cold cases episode, and i get wrong the title of the episode, it was a time to hate and not a time to kill (that's a very bad John Grisham's novel)
Cold case was such a good show, but very very depressing, and not only the gay episodes. I remember other episode with gay content with one of the actors of Bones (the one expert on insects)
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Post by jjose712 on Oct 30, 2013 10:14:29 GMT -5
We don't know the circumstances of the attack because it hasn't happened yet. Part of the problem with rape is that folks have preconceived notions about who can be raped and who commits and act of rape and frequently those preconceived notions are built on stereotypes. This is why so many victims of rape never report it because they feel they won't be believed or that people will judge them. Since it hasn't happened yet, there is literally no basis for judging what happens to JP or why Finn does it or what role Robbie plays in it. I just think folks are being very premature in their denouncing of the storyline in general. I'm not saying Hollyoaks is the best and dealing with sensitive issues. Obviously it is good and bad. But to denounce the very idea of someone like JP being raped by someone like Finn seems to just be not connected with what we know in society about what humans are capable of. All humans regardless of age, gender or sexual orientation are capable of anything. We don't know the reasons, we don't know how, we don't know under what circumstances and we can't predict the actions of a sociopathic teenager (in real life or in fiction). I've lived long enough to know that saying something could "never" happen is just something we as humans say to make ourselves feel comfortable, in charge, or like we understand the world. It's not realistic given the actual world we live in. Easy scenario, Finn bashed JP over the head, across the back, in the knee with a rock, rapes him while he's unconscious or half conscious or just pinned down by Robbi. Done and Done. WHO KNOWS? WE DON'T. It's not that hard to entertain. I think we should just let it play out and then judge it after the fact. I mean there was a time when if you'd told me that Jacquie McQueen could be raped and the guy be left alive I'd have said that's completely impossible because she would never let him live to see another sunset. But you never know how someone is going to deal with a situation. Humans are a contradiction. No, sorry but i can't believe the everyone is able to do everything, because that's simply not true. And no, the set up tells clearly that Robbie induct Finn to do something (not rape, in fact they imply that Robbie thinks Finn went a little too far), but everything about the spoiler implies that Finn is alone when he rapes JP. I think nobody questions the fact that Finn is able to rape JP, there can be multiple circumstances when he will get advantage over JP (knock him unconcious, use a gun, drugs, etc), but there's some fear by the way other soaps treated gay bashing storylines that JP will be portrayed as a helpless victim totally unable to defend himsefl from someone obviously weaker than him. Hopefully it won't be that what will happen, but i won't be that surprised if it is. Anyway, the better explain really well the circumstances, because in not collective rapes, the aggresor is usually gay (and generally with big problems of self acceptance) and the victim is usually straight (and there are reasons for that, because the probabilities of being denounced are a lot less if the victim is straight). I find very difficult to believe that a straight guy in normal circumstances (not in prison, not in warzone, not in a gang, not under the influence of drugs) decides to rape a gay male, with a lot of probabilites of being reported to the police. I can understand rage issues, but rage usually ends in bashing not in rapes. I know not all rapist are sexual predators, but i've never heard a case like what Hollyoaks wants to tell. Maybe they end explainning this, but in my opinion there are only two possible resolutions, Finn having some issues with his sexuality or him being a psycho. Hollyoaks is full of psychos but there seems to be always room for one more. And HQ75, i know you are right and we need to watch how the storyline develops, but with HO writing in other difficult themes and what they really spoil about the storyline, is frankly difficult to be positive
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Post by jjose712 on Oct 29, 2013 8:01:19 GMT -5
Cold case has two very good episodes (and very depressing too), A time to kill and Forever Blue
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Post by jjose712 on Oct 29, 2013 7:32:47 GMT -5
They made such mistake when killed Tyler. Tyler was a delicious sociopath.
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Post by jjose712 on Oct 29, 2013 6:20:14 GMT -5
I can't speak for other countries but I know in the U.S. there have been lots of cases of fraternities, sports teams and other groups of guys raping someone to punish or humiliate them. Rape is a form of control and violence. The sexual orientation of the perpetrator is irrelevant. The objective is to humiliate the victim and punish them and make them feel powerless. And we already know that Finn didn't just "wake up one morning" and decide to rape his teacher. It's about the context. You can't remove the act from the context. Men rape other men for the same reason they rape women, to assault their sense of agency to rob them of control over their own body. Criminal justice history and sociological evidence would beg to differ with the idea that you have to have sexual desire for someone in order to rape them. In fact, many gay men are raped by straight men because the victim is gay and they are using something that is normally a pleasurable act into an act of violence, intimidation and humiliation. People do horrific things every day. Unexpected people. In a world where a man could kidnap teenaged girls and keep them locked in his home for 10 years raping, beating and assaulting them, or a man in Europe could lock his own daughter in his basement for her entire life raping and beating and fathering his own grand children, in a world where this kind of thing happens all the time all over the world, what Finn does to JP is horrific but not exactly out of the box. Police officers in NYC raped a man with a nightstick and it's not the first time it's happened. Humans can be animals under the "right" circumstances. The "why" and "how" will be explained later when the storyline actually occurs. We can't answer those questions until we see what happens. The problems is that in HO storyline the right circumstances don't exist. All what you said is true, but that kind of rapes are in close enviroments, and in most cases are groups the perpetrators (and generally the victims are straight wich almost guarantie there's no denounce of the aggression). Because in group agressions is easier the things get out of control, and it's easier for some people to do things they wouldn't do in other circumstances if they are pushed by a group (but that's not everybody's case, because there are a lot of people who are inmune to group's pressure) Here is totally different, it's a small teen raping his teacher for no reason. Frankly i never read on news a similar case, and that's because when a student want to humiliate a teacher, he bash him, not rape him. I still think is not the correct set up for a male rape storyline, and given the lousy writen of HO, i doubt this will end well, or it will be explained at all.
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Post by jjose712 on Oct 28, 2013 16:12:00 GMT -5
Yes, but that's with straight character when you have tons of posibilities to hook up.
The fact is all attempts to love triangles with gay couples on american soaps tanked big time, because the writers were too scared to alienate viewers (and fans of gay couples can be very protective too).
Before making Will hook with another guy they will test chemistry with Sonny, and given the fact there's a new actor for Will, i will not be so sure it will be Freddie the sacrificed in case chemistry won't work between them.
In the long run there'll be a triangle for sure (if Days stays on air, of course, and if Wilson continues too) because soaps are quite predictable. But if they go there, i want them to go there with all consecuences, making the new guy likeable and throwing him in other storylines. When you know the new guy is a simple obstacle, the love triangle is just a waste of time.
And by the way, i still don't think Will is the right one to be in the middle of the triangle
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Post by jjose712 on Oct 28, 2013 4:27:39 GMT -5
And as we know Nov 14 is a very special day for the boys and Wilson fans. I was almost hoping that it meant that Will comes home with a new romance. (Starting off a new storyline for them). Umm, no. I want them to spice their storyline a bit, but betraying Sonny is just one week it will be too much (and part of the fun of a love triangle is the struggle of the tempted one)
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Post by jjose712 on Oct 27, 2013 15:42:38 GMT -5
And don't get me wrong i'm not against a rape storyline, the same way i wasn't about Stendan dysfunctional relationship. But this type of storylines need very good writing and Stendan was a disaster in the department, and the set up for the rape storyline doesn't make me feel hopefull this will be better.
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