thunderkat
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By Scissorknot
Posts: 2,053
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Post by thunderkat on Apr 24, 2010 16:28:08 GMT -5
Unfortunately, that is simply NOT in Chrissie's DNA and that's probably why Olli loves him so much. once Christian settles on a course of action, once he decides he feels something, he doesn't play games he's direct, up front, often graceless, but honest. in the past that worked for Olli, it was probably refreshing, but now, when it's working against olli's professional dreams...sigh. it's a problem YES. Even if she didn't have something constructive to say - and she would, cause she's judith - she could take his mind off his problems by ranting ceaselessly about her own and making Christian laugh about how worked up she gets. Katrin is one of the biggest casualties of the VL good actor bleed off.
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Post by ivaniv on Apr 24, 2010 16:36:12 GMT -5
I don't think Christian is worried Olli would want something from Ropp. But he knows what a flirt Olli is and that Ropp will keep hitting on him and he's not sure what would happen then. BTW, Olli usually moves out as far as the sofa but Christian decides to go to the castle where Rebecca is already waiting with open legs Or is it just that unlike Olli Christian does mind all the stains and the smell of the sofa?
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SF
Junior Member
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Post by SF on Apr 24, 2010 17:20:53 GMT -5
She actually went a very long way to making it realistic and believable to me. And I'm not talking about looks - because when she was allowed to change out of the hard hat, Katrin was an absolute stunner - but she had a very real quality, and a kind of charm that is missing from the glossy, high budget soaps VL seems to be emulating these days. She was just your average girl, with average problems - no car explosions, no paternity disputes - she just wanted a bloke, and every time she failed it wasn't a huge and teary, end-of-the-road catastrophe (like Helena), it was on the sofa with a bucket of ice cream. And I think she was magic with Thore. I don't know what it is. She just brought out a very soft side to a very masculine character. I always wonder if I'd have bought Christian falls for Olli as much as I did, if Judith didn't move in right when it happened, and wasn't there to be the voice of the audience (and of reason) when she needed to be. Christian doesn't talk to a lot of people, well not convincingly, because lately he's shouting to Nico about his emotional problems and confiding in Rebecca about his emotional crisis - but it comes off as false. And it definitely alters my perception of Christian. Judith was like family to him. She really was. Especially when Gregor didn't have time to console his little brother. I can't praise Katrin enough for making the flatshare real, and for the part she played in Chrolli being as affecting as they are. I honestly can't say I would still be watching two years down the line, if Christian-as-he-is-now and Olli-as-he-is-now were just falling in love. And Katrin was a HUGE part of that. Oh I really miss her. I still adore the scenes when Christian first cooks for her and burns his finger, and then the scene on the sofa where she tells him they make a nice couple and he opens up to her about it - the first person other than Olli (and Coco) he told about his feelings. I even miss the scenes where Judith has got back from a failed date and the guys are consoling her with their ever ready Proseco supplies.
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Post by irinobabe on Apr 24, 2010 22:22:42 GMT -5
loved the performances by Jo and Thore, so nuanced and emotional. Yays all around. *sigh* love a good soapy story that I can somewhat relate to. It's exhausting dealing with a jealous boyfriend who questions your every move. It is EXHAUSTING having to defend yourself, it's like walking through a land mine not knowing what is going to set him off. But you also have to stop planting the mines. I'd say Christian is unreasonably jealous if there was NO indication that Olli or Rob could get together, there was no reason to be jealous at all. But I keep thinking, if it were me, how would I feel if: 1. A hot, skanky girl was all over my boyfriend at every turn 2. He works with that hot skanky girl because she has something that he needs to further his career 3. As much as he tells me that he's not interested in her, they go out together at all hours of the night without me. He even forgets to call me while partying all night with her and not coming home. 4. She's kissed him. He doesn't tell me for weeks, even after I confront him about the possibility. I hear it from someone else. 5. She tells me that all she wants to do is take him from me and get into his pants, not because she likes him, but just for kicks. 6. She tells me that she's going to screw him over and deal drugs at the bar he owns 7. She hugs and kisses him, knowing I'm watching, and throws me a look like, I will own your bf. She insults me to my face in front of him and he does nothing about it. 8. She shows up in OUR apartment, as I'm just about to leave for work. 9. I can't do a damn thing about it because every time I tell my boyfriend, he takes her word over mine. If this happened to me, could I think Christian is being overjealous and irrational? I would be thinking, doing and saying a whole lot worse than he is right now. A whole lot more. And I would seriously think of packing it in, if I was ever treated like that. I get the fact that Olli wants to be successful in his future. I get that he believes nothing will happen between him and Rob. I get that Olli feels unsupported by Christian right now. But he is not getting the incredible blow to the relationship Rob is having on his relationship, and that he is, for now, choosing Rob over Christian, because he CANNOT have both. Do people really expect Christian to meekly put up with Rob? Is it realistic to have Rob coexist with Christian, given Rob's goal of destroying Olli, and his relationship with Christian? Bring on the drama
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Post by luckycharm on Apr 24, 2010 23:41:04 GMT -5
Meh... it has a time and place. My bf is so flirty that he makes Olli look like carrion. I mean, he'd flirt with lint. Though I'm never really worried, I do have a reaction when some guy gets too close: I puff up my chest, casually paw at my bf, interrupt with a sarcastic remark (totally ooc, I know), step between them just to move to the other side of my guy, and generally define my territory. Not all the time; just when a guy gets the wrong idea - and I swear when that happens I can smell it, almost taste it on his breath. And I think Christian is the same. Projection is not a just justification, JustaMannsMann. I do it, he does it, and since I believe I'm right, thus, he is right, too! Jealousy is understandable, and pretty common in relationships, but, that doesn't mean it should be acceptable. Understandable != acceptable. Oh yes he was. Christian was "trying" to be uber cool with this Rob dude showing up. Check out Chrissie baby's expression from 0:58-1:00, especially, but the first minute or so, is pretty telling as a whole, if you focus on Christian's actions from when Rob enters to Rob and Olli's brief convo/interaction. One thing I've noticed of VL, the writers, of recent, aren't very subtle....the introduction of Rob to Ollian was this clip. And, it set the stage right from the start of the conflict he'll create. Jealousy, Olli's starry eyes, their careers. And, Rob entered just after Christian, feeling excited looking at the future horizons, at his own path, at Olli, declared, "We have an amazing career ahead of us." Dun dun dun.... It's foreshadowing if I've ever seen one. Christian is on guard right off the bat. He notices that Rob completely ignores him and "dazzles" Olli. He even sarcastically repeats Rob's name, when he says to "call him Rob". The seed for Christian's issue with Rob was planted even from that very beginning. Christian is trying to show that he has "no problem" with Olli going out with Rob. The supportive boyfriend shtick. Does he feel as confident as he's showing? Now where have I seen this before? Deja vu time! Christian's match, the night before, and Christian seeing Olli at Sneider's with the gym dude, Mark, and telling Olli he doesn't mind, and for Olli to "have fun!" Riiiighttt..... Character flaw isn't a bad thing. It's human, and we all got 'em. It's only bad when it's excused away as a good thing, enabled, swept under the rug, dressed up as something good, and not something to be worked on. Insecurity is a flaw. Jealousy rising out of insecurity is a flaw. It's neither good nor bad, only its manifestation and subsequent action dictates such direction as so. I hear you, though, on the gut instinct, of judging characters. And, by extension, needing to warn/protect our loved ones from those we feel such vibes from. Christian rightly picks up on Rob's bad character. Christian wrongly ascribes it to his jealousy, rather than Rob's inherent bad character. This is the very reason the storyline, at least from Christian's part to play in it, has been the way it is. A frustrating emotional turmoil for the audience. With them hitting walls and walls. Christian would do well to separate his jealousy towards Rob and his doubt about Rob's character. Feeling of emotion versus feeling of intuition. Him not defining, from early on, that line of separation....has created the gap in communication with Olli, about his suspicions of drugs re: Rob...and thus, Olli's doubt to believe Christian so readily. Olli can't figure out if Christian's jealousy is motivating him, or, if Christian is calling it like it is. As, from Olli's angle, he has seen no evidence of drugs, but PLENTY of evidence of Christian's jealousy regarding Rob. Thunderkat explained it nicely here too: Unfortunately, that is simply NOT in Chrissie's DNA and that's probably why Olli loves him so much. once Christian settles on a course of action, once he decides he feels something, he doesn't play games he's direct, up front, often graceless, but honest. in the past that worked for Olli, it was probably refreshing, but now, when it's working against olli's professional dreams...sigh. it's a problem Unfortunately, so, so, very true. The last part that you wrote, I think this also explains Olli's little "smile" you talk about V: ^ Take a look at the ep where Christian pushes Rob back into the plush chair. I'm going to get flamed for saying this...but i think olli gets a little kick out of jealous christian...there was something in his face at that moment that was a really interesting combination of affronted, worshipful, angry and turned on. .... I have a different interpretation to that scene....and Olli's little hint of a smile. At 7:36 - Olli's "smile", to me, is one of exasperation and loaded with sarcasm. Like, "Christian, Christian, Christian, same as always. You just can't help yourself, huh? Well, are you happy now?" I think it's more of a smirk than a smile. Olli likes the fluffy feel-good jealousy Christian does, as a way to flirt. This was definitely, contextually, not one of those situations nor moments. Olli was embarrassed in front of Rob by Christian's behaviour. ^ There have been inklings of this before, yes? like when Christian was frustrated right after the miriam kiss, and goes to work on his punching bag. Judith confronts him about it and she says come on Olli's cool - or something like that and Christian finally grumbles "And I am not." hmm when you look back and these connections start happening, you have to wonder, is it intentional by feiler or a happy accident. That's maybe the first instance of Christian's "Am I good enough" insecurity. Olli is there with his successful bar, with his laissez faire attitude, and poor Chrissie must feel like a weak hearted provincial. The current storyline is now bringing that fear RIGHT to the forefront like it's bringing Olli's, does he want women fear to the forefront. ::ponder ponder:: Also true! And Christian is clingy, but until the last couple of episodes I don't think it is bad clingy. If he saw Olli all the time, and still got pissy about him spending time with Ropp, it would be less understandable. But because he feels he has to fight for time with Olli, it comes off clingy, when really he has less time with Olli than ever before. To me, clingy is clingy. It's always a negative word. There's no "good" or "bad" instances of clingy in consenting adult relationships. "Good" clingy is a child sticking to its parents side, or the parent sticking to a child's side. Protection. 1) Olli is not Christian's child. 2) Olli needs protecting from Rob by Christian insofar as the drug angle ONLY. 3) Christian seems more concerned with Olli/Rob - the attraction angle - than the drug angle. 4) Thus, Christian isn't protecting Olli from bad Rob the drug dealer, but bad Rob the pant(y) raider. Christian is trying to proverbially piss on Olli to mark his territory. It's cute to watch as an audience cuz Christian is so easy on the eyes, and we can *swoon* at the passion of it all. If it was reality, I don't think it translates as sweetly. Jealousy is always tied to insecurity [not speaking of the flirty, play "jealousy" - as Christian is so not playing in those instances re: Rob]. If insecurity is a good thing, one that should not be on the "to work on, to overcome" list, then, sure, so is jealousy a good thing. Christian's past of losing a lot of things that he holds dear explains why he clings so hard to those that he finally lets into his inner sanctum. It's sometimes *desperate* how he holds on to Olli. Esp. now, given that his only family is gone (Gregor, and even Stella). He basically has only Olli left, in terms of those he can call his "own". It's understandable, and there's certainly then just cause for it to be acceptable in some instances. But, it shouldn't be accepted as a rule, but an exception. And, the exceptions should be tolerated at best, not enabled, like some of the audience's reactions seems to do (i.e., want Olli to do) with regards to Macho-Man-Christian-the-Jealous-Hot-Head...rwar. (I admit, I'm guilty of finding pleasure in Christian's anger and jealousy, only 'cause Thore does it so well, but, looking at it, and analyzing from the storyline's pov...yeah...no) She actually went a very long way to making it realistic and believable to me. And I'm not talking about looks - because when she was allowed to change out of the hard hat, Katrin was an absolute stunner - but she had a very real quality, and a kind of charm that is missing from the glossy, high budget soaps VL seems to be emulating these days. She was just your average girl, with average problems - no car explosions, no paternity disputes - she just wanted a bloke, and every time she failed it wasn't a huge and teary, end-of-the-road catastrophe (like Helena), it was on the sofa with a bucket of ice cream. And I think she was magic with Thore. I don't know what it is. She just brought out a very soft side to a very masculine character. I always wonder if I'd have bought Christian falls for Olli as much as I did, if Judith didn't move in right when it happened, and wasn't there to be the voice of the audience (and of reason) when she needed to be. Christian doesn't talk to a lot of people, well not convincingly, because lately he's shouting to Nico about his emotional problems and confiding in Rebecca about his emotional crisis - but it comes off as false. And it definitely alters my perception of Christian. Judith was like family to him. She really was. Especially when Gregor didn't have time to console his little brother. I can't praise Katrin enough for making the flatshare real, and for the part she played in Chrolli being as affecting as they are. I honestly can't say I would still be watching two years down the line, if Christian-as-he-is-now and Olli-as-he-is-now were just falling in love. And Katrin was a HUGE part of that. Oh I really miss her. I still adore the scenes when Christian first cooks for her and burns his finger, and then the scene on the sofa where she tells him they make a nice couple and he opens up to her about it - the first person other than Olli (and Coco) he told about his feelings. I even miss the scenes where Judith has got back from a failed date and the guys are consoling her with their ever ready Proseco supplies. Nicely said. I really enjoyed this post with its insight into the Judith character and what she did to the Chrolli dynamic. I agree wholeheartedly, esp. the bolded. Judith and Christian was one of the very best portrayals of a big brother/little sister dynamic I've seen on a show.
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talula
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Post by talula on Apr 24, 2010 23:43:51 GMT -5
You know guys something always bothered me with Christian jealousy,i think there is something more than just fear of lose Oliver,i mean he is jealous not just becouse he deeply loves Ollie which i have no doubts about,but obviously that Chris much more emotionally attached and much more emotionally vulnerable than Oliver,i always found it very cute but now i think it's something more here,looks like possibility to lose Ollie it's the BIGGEST Chris' fear,like he just can't Imagine how he would live without him,don't know maybe it's only my impression but i always felt that Oliver is much stronger person,with more self confidence than Chris, i think Chris's jealousy it's not only display of big love it's also display of uncertainty and inner complex .
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angel
Junior Member
Posts: 390
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Post by angel on Apr 25, 2010 4:59:44 GMT -5
I think both makes soapy mistakes, without it we have no long going story.
But I cant see Olli at this time as the bad boy. Why should he say for ever goodbey to Rob, only because Chris knows he is a bad boy?
I can understand that Chris has a lot of fear to loose Olli. But with his actions, all other jealousy, Olli have no other chance to trust Chris. Chris is jealous, yes its right, but I think its a littler bit on overdose, Feiler have allways not the right hand to writting it in a normal way, so thats not sound childish. When Chris nearly goes to the top, only when Robs sits on the other side of the table at a business meeting, its to much for my opinion, what Feiler makes of Chris. Sometimes a little bit ist better, than to much.
Yes Olli can give his dream up, about to be the new partyking at Düsseldorf, but whats makes this of him? Is Chris a master and Olli his slaveboy, who allways commands in which way Olli has to go. Or is Olli, Chris boyfriend and is a own individual, with his own decisions. The real master ist Rob, he manipulates people like dools and I think its gread. Its a good drama for our boys. Rob must only say how high Chris must jump, and he jumps, he plays perfect with our guys.
And on the other hand, what did Chris that Olli can trust him, for Olli, Chris reacts out of jealousy and a little bit its true, ok we know its not only Rob is bad, but not for Olli himself. But instead Chris supported his boyfriend about his dreams, Chris have allways bad words about Ollis new dreams, only what matters, is him, that he is in a good mood, what about Ollis future its for Chris not so important. Chris is a man that wants turn the world about him, when its not, than he goes in a childish why, like a child who have got no lolly any more. He cant stand by his man, when Chris stand by his man, Rob has no chance. But so, Rob is the only guy, which Olli supports, thats the reason why Olli trusts Rob more, because Rob give Olli good advices about his futures and he believe in Olli, instead of Chris, ok we as viewers no it better, but Olli see only the good Rob and the unsupporter Chris. Which Person to you trust a this state more, someone that you love but says only bad thinks about your business, or someone that supports you and give you a strong feeling. So is it a little bit a double standart that Olli is only the supporter (and slave) and Chris the bully (and master). Must Olli be allways the supporter, when he was nearly for other two hears. And when its time for the other turn, Chris dont have the boyfriend mode, which means he should support his boyfriend in all moods and circumstances, nearly the same way which had Olli longtime ago. Chris thinks hes doing right, but instead he over reacted, and give Rob at first a chance by Olli.
And for some people who think Rob is a bad guy, who should go to hell, better yesterday than tommorow. Yes he is a bady, but without him, the boys have no storyline, only Becki love Chris. And I dont think, thats what people wants more to see. Or wants mostly all people, Chris makes out with Becki, is this better?
How I wrote in the beginning, both makes mistakes, its soap, without no long stories. But I think Rob is a good drama, instead of Becki. Its a soap, but with bad writting at this year. So I wish we had better, but the reality its called Feiler.
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Post by ivaniv on Apr 25, 2010 6:33:14 GMT -5
Christan knows directly from the horse's mouth, not Elias', the other one, that Ropp is a really bad news, privately and otherwise. Wouldn't you be worried if somebody like that was circling your b/f?
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Post by Lightness on Apr 25, 2010 6:40:40 GMT -5
Christan knows directly from the horse's mouth, not Elias', the other one, that Ropp is a really bad news, privately and otherwise. Wouldn't you be worried if somebody like that was circling your b/f? Of course! But there is no sense to vent it on your boyfriend. Quite the reverse - you run the risk of scaring your partner away.
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Post by JustaMannsMan on Apr 25, 2010 7:27:12 GMT -5
Projection is not a just justification, JustaMannsMann. Jealousy is understandable, and pretty common in relationships, but, that doesn't mean it should be acceptable. lol... fair enough. My intent was not to justify, merely to express understanding of a common experience among men. That said, my point was more that some guys don't respect boundaries or don't see boundaries because of flirty or charming behavior and that their disrespect or misunderstanding is perceivable. In that case, especially with determined types like Rob, it's understandable if not necessary to make those boundaries clear. Jealousy isn't always a matter of insecurity; it can also be protective. Naw... you missed the point: I'm right AND he's right. 'nuff said. ;D Oh no he wasn't. [note: for some reason I thought only the first part of your post referred to mine; I missed that you broke up what I'd posted. So the following reads as if you didn't point out the very same episodes, which, of course, you did.] The facial expressions you're referring to at around 1:00 started at around 0:28 with "Call me Rob." Christian is reacting to the pushy, fake, uber-cool jack-assery of Rob - as lots of people here do too; Christian's reaction is not distrust, it's distaste - and rightfully so. And if you look at 1:18, when he responds to Olli's question of "...and you're really fine with it?" there's not a hint of jealousy or concern. He moves back to his face to face position with Olli and reminds him about the morning and gives him a kiss. Compare that to Christian's response to Olli at the time of the big boxing match when Olli decided to go clubbing and Christian found him at Schneider's having a drink with another guy - ( here from the beginning) - the jealousy is obvious and belies his words: his face is tight, his eyes are wide, then, when Olli asks if he should come back with Christian, Christian's gives him fake, unconvincing smiles and can barely look Olli in the face. Clearly different. (though to be fair, there's a mix of jealousy and irritation at Olli for picking the night before the big match to suddenly go out clubbing - which I'll never understand. Ever.) Also compare this to the moment where Christian actually perceived the threat from Rob in this episode at around 6:52 on. I think there's a definite difference in reaction. One is unconcerned; one is concerned. When Rob puts his hands on Olli we see the moment he sensed Rob's attraction to Olli and, possibly, Olli's unknowing attraction to Rob. Additionally, we can compare the moment after reactions by Christian. After the dressage exam, when Olli pussed out and had to find a nice hay spread to nap on, Christian on the phone was disappointed Olli wasn't around - and then demonstrably happy to find him for a roll in the hay. Conversely, the morning after he perceived Rob as a threat, Christian was brusque and a wee bit condescending toward Olli about Rob and made plain his concern: "Olli, I saw the way Robert looked at you when you said good-bye. It was so obvious." It was. And to me, Christian was obvious too; look here, at about 1:22). So, yes, the ep. you posted was the formal introduction of Rob to Ollian and their eventual conflict was set-up, but the threat of Rob in Christian's eyes came later. There was no reason for Christian to be jealous at that point and I don't believe he was. It is a shame that Christian's face is hidden behind Olli's head when Rob is inviting Olli out... because I'm sure that it would add weight to my view of that moment. I agree and I'm glad that both characters have them. I look forward to the day when this SL, which is focused on Olli and his character flaw is resolved. My only hope is that the revelation of the drugs will show Olli how wrong he has been about Rob and Christian all along - or put another way: how Christian has been right - AND that he allows himself to admit his personal faults so that he can resolve them. If he doesn't this problem will arise again in a different form. As I said above, not all jealousy is a result of insecurity. I agree that part of Christian's jealousy is from insecurity, but, at least before he learned of Olli's kiss with Rob, I don't think his reaction to Rob's laying his hands on Olli was wholly a manifestation of his insecurity - i.e. a lack of confidence in his own worth - rather it was a reaction to Olli's demonstrated inability to implement boundaries in response to a threat and keep a firm grasp on his priorities. If we look at The Food Critic Affair (and the top of the next ep.), we see a set-up of this dynamic - the entire episode was about it - and the important question asked by and in that episode was Christian's question to Olli: "How far were you prepared to go for that?" In that ep. Olli got himself into a predicament because he a) failed to identify the food critic to Christian as a food critic (and thus someone who could help the success of NL); and b) bewilderingly, interjected that Christian was "[His] employee" after Christian introduced himself to Weidner. Infidelity was indeed addressed in that episode, in the magazine article about whether humans are hardwired for infidelity, with Olivia's taunting of Christian at Schneiders and in Christian's dialogue. But the argument following the Food Critic Troll's hasty exit (after Christian nearly tried to shove a crate of papayas up his ass) was about Olli's casual dismissal of flirting (as being "polite") that began to cross the line and how far he was willing to go in order to advance the success of NL. Perhaps more importantly, that episode highlighted Olli's naive belief that he could effectively manage and control situations or people that threatened to crossed the line from flirting to something more destructive. It illustrated that Olli was in over his head. In my first couple viewing of that ep., I thought that the Food Critic Troll was just a smarmy quid pro quo creep (try saying that fast a few times). Then I saw that when he cuddled up to Olli and suggested they slip into something more invigorating, Olli's attempt to fend off Weidner with "But I have plans with Christian" was ineffective because as far a Weidner knew, Christian was just an employee because that's how Olli identified him. I don't think Olli would've taken Weidner to the store room and blown him to get a good review, but I do think his demoting Christian from bf to employee was a tactical move so that he could better parlay his flirting into an advantage for NL. But he played it wrong; he failed and showed that he couldn't handle himself well or properly. And that sets him up as someone who can be taken advantage of by a more skilled and determined player like Rob. So, yes, Christian does pickup on Rob's bad character, but more importantly he sees that Rob wants Olli and that Olli can't see it. And he knows that because Olli can't see it, he can't protect himself from it. The joke is that the person Olli really needs protecting from, is Olli. The morning after Rob puts his hands on Olli and Christian points out Rob's desire to Olli, Olli mistakenly ascribes Christian's motivation to his jealousy of Olli's success (or potential success) with NL. Later, Olli meets Stella in NL and tells her he doesn't know if Christian is jealous of Rob or jealous of his success with NL. Even Stella dismisses the idea that Christian is jealous of NL. But Olli responds as if he is by hauling out his glue stick and making a lovely Love Schedule as if the time he puts into NL and not into Christian is the problem. He does this after Christian clearly identifies Rob as the problem. And what happens? The Love Schedule doesn't work. Many episodes later, when Christian is on the couch with Rebecca, he tells her that he and Olli have been spending more time together but that it hasn't helped. The obvious reason is that time and attention aren't the problem. It's Olli and his confused priorities; his failure to identify a threat and his inability to simply look at his own behavior to explain his troubles with Christian. Now, I said all that to say: I don't actually believe it makes much difference if Christian seethes with jealousy in his accusations about Rob or if he remains cool and calm when telling Olli that Rob is a threat to them, to NL, and to Olli, because for Olli, Rob is the one and only golden ticket into the Chocolate Factory and it wouldn't be that unreasonable to say that Olli protects Rob and more importantly, protects Olli, in a word, jealously. Olli found out on his own that Rob was sexually interested in him and then let himself get drunk enough and close enough for Rob to kiss him. Olli tells Christian in the vlog that "[Rob] is a deceiver" and yet, unfathomably, refuses to even entertain the possibility that "a deceiver" might lie about his buddy Jörg being a drug dealer. Christian tried to calmly broach the subject of the badness of Rob before the last glorious love scene and Olli shut him down. Rebecca mentions how much time Olli spends with Rob and how close they are and Olli shuts her down - then proceeds to ask her how he could prove to Christian that he has nothing to worry about. Those are but a few examples, there are more, but they are all impotent because Olli has a firm Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Speak No Evil policy with regard to Rob. IMO, it wouldn't make a bit of difference if Christian separated his jealousy of Rob and his doubts about Rob's character (and I would add that even if he could or would separate them, both are still relevant)(and I would also point out that Rob has rather pointedly removed all doubts about his character). They are hitting walls, but they are walls that Olli erected. They are having difficulty communicating, because Olli won't listen. And honestly, if a man is deaf and blind, does it really matter if you try to warn him of danger with a whisper or a scream, or if you employ sign-language, semaphore or simply wave you arms about wildly? Frankly, I think Christian's walking out was a result of his realizing how ineffectual he is in this drama. And after being insulted in his own house, being asked to leave his own house, and then having to suffer through justifications for that, I think he was right to leave. Olli received all the evidence he should have needed. The word of his lover, which, jealous or not, is or should be, more valuable, have more weight than the word of a "deceiver" like Rob.
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SF
Junior Member
Posts: 759
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Post by SF on Apr 25, 2010 8:27:56 GMT -5
Olli's flaws: - He doesn't believe Christian, despite Christian being right, because he thinks the accusations stem from Christian's pre-established jealousy. He is (willfully?) choosing to ignore the possibility that Rob could be dealing drugs because of the above. He is a bad judge of character. TOO TRUSTING - He hides stuff from Christian if he thinks it will upset him too much. I wouldn't call it deception, in either case (because Christian does it as well), because it's not born out a need to deceive, rather protect. So instead, FURTIVENESS - He gets passionate and hooked on one thing at a time. It used to be Christian and now it's the NLs. BLINKERED PASSION
Christian's flaws: - He is pathologically jealous. Of anyone who goes near Olli. Men or women. He's said as much when they were going on they're aborted picnic and getting stuff ready in the kitchen. Olli's attitude to other people is almost exactly the opposite, he teased Christian in the yoghurt episode about Christian's sexy student friends, and he set up the the Helena photoshoot with Christian and Helena. He honestly doesn't seem to mind if Christian flirts with other people, not that Christian ever would because he's a bit like a frigid, sixteen year old girl when it comes to sex. Everything means something. Hence the jealousy. Olli is more relaxed, unless there is an actual betrayal, even so SPOILER when he finds out about Rebecca being in love with his bf he is described as 'relaxed' about it. Just a testament to his character. Christian needs to relax about Olli, because as other people have said, jealousy on this scale is not endearing just because the person being jealous is a total hawtie. He is demonstrably marking his territory when it comes to Olli. But there comes a point when you're standing there, covered in proverbial piss, wondering if it's all worth it. I don't think Olli's there yet, but he's not far off - from being driven away. So, JEALOUSY. - He's aggressive to the point of physical threat. And while some might think it's sexy and Olli gets a kick out of it, I think he was flattered when it came to Axel that Christian was driven to protect him physically - but there as in here, he saw it as extra trouble for both of them, namely Christian. He's not a caveman - it's a sign of insecurity and fear when you react violently. And it's a lesser reaction. AGGRESSION - He hides things from Olli as well - Rebecca's kiss. But he believes his reasons for doing so are unlike Olli's and he does it for the right reasons, whereas Olli does it because there is some secret he is trying to hide. And he deliberately hides his feelings from Olli, I have no idea why. But it doesn't help there relationship. MORAL SUPERIORITY
There are others on both sides, but those are the ones that stick out most predominantly to me in this SL. So I guess that's why I'm on Olli's side. Because 'too trusting', 'furtiveness' and 'blinkered passion' sort of win out over 'jealousy', 'aggression' and 'moral superiority'. That's why I think it will be a shame if at the end of this SL, Olli apologises for being completely in the wrong and bows down to the awesome and ever-right Christian. I would stop watching if that were the case. Both are in the wrong here. Both of them are badly behaved. But Christian especially for me, is behaving like a child over the whole Rob issue, whilst being as guilty as Olli over the things he is accusing him of. Oh yeah add HYPOCRITE to Christian's list.
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Post by ivaniv on Apr 25, 2010 8:40:04 GMT -5
It's not a pathological jealousy when he knows for sure that Ropp wants to shag Olli and is doing what he can to get him. Christian told Olli about kissing R. himself, which must count for something. He can't be expected to pick up the phone in the middle of kissing Rebecca and call Olli. I had not seen Olli to agonise if he should tell Christian or not.
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SF
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Post by SF on Apr 25, 2010 8:45:46 GMT -5
actually, when christian came down to NLs the morning after and Olli was standing by the cappuccino machine Olli clearly went to tell him "Actually there was something else..." I think he said, but then didn't get round to it, because someone else walked in or something. And he clearly thought it better not to tell Christian. But you could see there was a pull to tell him. Christian on the other hand explicitly told Rebecca NOT to tell Olli because it would jeopardize their fresh start. Jeopardize his position as morally superior, the Rolli kiss having been revealed, jeopardized his position as the one with the upper hand again. He only told Olli because Olli made him feel guilty enough to express it. If Olli had said nothing, in bed, I wonder if Christian would have told him like he did?! I'm not so sure.
EDIT:- Also it is pathological jealousy, if your bf is not going to cheat on you anytime soon and has reassured you of this. I actually think, if Christian wanted, Olli would have no objection to him coming out with him and Rob, to all these parties they go to - it's his choice NOT TO. so you can't even use the excuse that Olli is deliberately keeping a part of his life from Christian, like Sebastian is with Lydia. It is entirely down to Christian.
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angel
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Post by angel on Apr 25, 2010 9:15:19 GMT -5
It's not a pathological jealousy when he knows for sure that Ropp wants to shag Olli and is doing what he can to get him. Olli knows, Rob is into him, but for him its clearly a no go, he dont cheat on his boyfriend. And he knows Chris is jealous all the time about nothing. So why should he trust Chris this time, only because he is his boyfriennd and we know the truth? For Olli its clear he knows nothing whats real about Chris thoughts, which one is real, which one is only a jealous phantasie of him. So Olli goes the lighter way and trust not his unsupporter boyfriend and trust instead his now better supporter, called Rob. When it was real and my friend have no trust in me and spent 24h a day to controll my day/live. Then for me its pathological. And for real I would break the relationship, when my boyfriend trusts me not 5 minutes, no matter about, that he knows someone is into me, or not. It was a business meeting, not spendig a night at the clubs, than jealous would be ok. But in this episode, Chris only hold of Olli, from his work. And I would kick out my boyfriend as well, because the working is than easier and goes faster. So both makes mistakes. Chris is right about the whole situation no question, but makes in my opinion much more mistakes than Olli.
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lizg12
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Post by lizg12 on Apr 25, 2010 9:19:45 GMT -5
If we look at The Food Critic Affair (and the top of the next ep.), we see a set-up of this dynamic ....Then I saw that when he cuddled up to Olli and suggested they slip into something more invigorating, Olli's attempt to fend off Weidner with "But I have plans with Christian" was ineffective because as far a Weidner knew, Christian was just an employee because that's how Olli identified him. Do you think it would have made a difference if Olli had said "I have plans with my boyfriend" without naming names?
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SF
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Post by SF on Apr 25, 2010 9:35:49 GMT -5
it seems like the main defense of people who fall down on the side of christian is: "wouldn't you do the same if you were in his position?!" or "yeah, he is clingy/jealous/aggressive but he has reason to be". while i respect that everyone has a right to decipher the situation themselves - that, to me is not a defense. christian's behaviour is impossible to justify. even though there may indeed be reasons causing his behaviour - you can't call it *right*. similarly you can't call olli's behaviour right, but unlike christian, olli doesn't constantly insist he has the moral high ground. he's more agree to disagree, instead of trying to change christian's mind. "okay - you don't like rob, let's not talk about him then." the people who defend Olli aren't saying he is right to interact in some of the ways he does with rob, same as christian laughing at the gay snowman joke with wolle wasn't right - but it's not his fault. he can't help that rob is pursuing him. he just wants to make a go of his career. and christian is just making it more difficult for him. it's sad really. olli's between a rock and a hard place when it comes to his dreams and what he wants. christian was too, with the boxing, but back then he had olli like a soothing balm, or like a life aid - constantly there to support him and buoy him up. christian gave up on being that to olli after he helped with the first party. and, if they wanted me to see christian's POV they should have focused on the drugs and not made christian into a jealous, possessive ninny. it reduces his appeal and corrupts his character. which i loved when i started with this chrolli thing.
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maya
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Post by maya on Apr 25, 2010 9:48:16 GMT -5
I think both of them are responsable for the current crisis and that this sort of contest to decide wich one is more responsable than the other is completely useless specially because it seems that the same arguments are used over and over again. This won't change the minds of people who thinks differently
JMHO
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SF
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Post by SF on Apr 25, 2010 9:58:18 GMT -5
with the greatest respect maya, a "contest to decide wich one is more responsable than the other" is not my intention at all. i was just getting tired with how bashed olli can get on these boards sometimes - often going undefended in the end due to the sheer persistence of the pro-christian feeling - which in and of itself isn't wrong or bad or anything really. i'm not trying to say olli is 'better' than christian - i just wanted to point out that christian doesn't have the monopoly on being right. which is what comes across to me sometimes reading some of the commentary. personally though i love diversity of opinion. i don't mind if people disagree with me. but for exactly that reason, i won't not defend olli anymore because i'm worried about stepping on toes. but i agree. it's not a contest. and never should be. otherwise what would be the point of being a chrolli fan?
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angel
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Post by angel on Apr 25, 2010 10:46:47 GMT -5
and, if they wanted me to see christian's POV they should have focused on the drugs and not made christian into a jealous, possessive ninny. it reduces his appeal and corrupts his character. which i loved when i started with this chrolli thing. Yes, thats my point, too.
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angel
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Post by angel on Apr 25, 2010 11:01:42 GMT -5
That's why I think it will be a shame if at the end of this SL, Olli apologises for being completely in the wrong and bows down to the awesome and ever-right Christian. I would stop watching if that were the case. Both are in the wrong here. Both of them are badly behaved. But Christian especially for me, is behaving like a child over the whole Rob issue, whilst being as guilty as Olli over the things he is accusing him of. Oh yeah add HYPOCRITE to Christian's list. Thats my fear, too, but I hope Feiler makes it this time good and destroys at her end not Chrolli. Thats my bigest fear about Feiler and her stories. That in the end:Olli is allways the good guy and overperfect boyfriend who gives everythink for Chris and is allways a loser. And Christian is a hero, who his allways right no matter what. That would sucks, for my mind. Like my heavy example, which makes Chrolli a sort of Master and Slave Realtionship.
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Post by Zathras on Apr 25, 2010 12:00:27 GMT -5
I haven't been reading the VL part of the board much. I simply don't have time to read all the posts from the prolific posters here . I have read a couple pages of this thread, and wanted to throw in my 2 cents. So, I apologize in advance if you've covered this ground before. My take on the situation is that Christian feels he's losing Olli to Rob, and can't do anything about it. I don't necessarily mean in a romantic sense (though that seems to be what many people are assuming). Christian knows that Rob is trying to manipulate Olli to his own ends, and is doing so successfully. He knows Rob is dealing drugs in the NL, and he believes Rob would have no compunction of splitting them up or ruining Olli to achieve his goals (whatever they ultimately may be). And he knows that Olli has great dreams and aspirations for No Limits. Olli is blind to Rob's motivations, and has mistaken Christian's concern as one of purely romantic jealousy. That's a testament to Rob's manipulative abilities, and Olli's priorities. Christian is trying to protect Olli, NL, and himself from a threat, one which his partner is intentionally blinding himself to. Unfortunately, he's not particularly adept at it, and it manifests itself in apparent jealous "rage". Olli, having misconstrued Christian's full intentions, has stopped really listening. It's unfortunate, because if there's one person he should be able to trust, it's Christian. So Christian doesn't know anymore how to get through to Olli, and they both end up going in circles. I really wish Christian would sit down and explain all this to Olli, rather than doing his usual thing - walking away. And I really hope that Olli will really listen. I didn't like seeing the sadness in Olli at the end of Friday's clip. Now Olli feels he's losing Christian, and doesn't really understand why.
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SF
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Post by SF on Apr 25, 2010 12:16:09 GMT -5
i agree with a lot of what you're saying zathras. although i would say that if christian feels the need to walk away there are still more mature and civilized ways he could do this, ways that would probably have more of an impression on olli as well. he could even take a leaf out of his bf's book - like when it came down to it with the boxing/doping SL. instead of flying into a mad rage (like he has admitted (picnic episode) he is wont to do, where it comes to olli and other men) then storming out, so it looks like rage is the reason behind his need to get away - he could calmly tell olli "i won't watch you make this mistake with rob" and then leave. i'm sure if olli knew it was something christian was actually willing to sacrifice everything over, he would start taking more notice. in actuality i think of christian a bit like a sparrow on a string attached to olli's wrist, cept he's tied the string round himself. olli is the only person he has left that you could count as family - and christian has always been dependent on the intimacy of family - he loves olli above and beyond, so he can't make a reasoned, rational stand against what he perceives to be a mistake on olli's part because he is too afraid, for his own sake, of losing him. contrastingly, olli loved christian in equal measure - he was his ultimate dream after months of seemingly futile longing - but when he saw that christian was prepared to use steroids, he was strong enough to stand back and say "you know what? i'm not gonna stick around to watch." and it paid off, because christian came back to him almost straight away and they were stronger because of it.
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mycatfox
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Post by mycatfox on Apr 25, 2010 14:01:37 GMT -5
I think the Rob/Olli/Christian sub sub-plot seems to be a little bit out of focus. After having finally confirmed Rob's goals (using NL to expand his drug business and getting into Olli's pants) Christian should be very worried. I'd say absolutely, desperately worried because the love of his life is being the target of a man that is not only a hot manipulator but a ruthless crook . But by the way this story is written, IMO, it looks like Christian is more concerned because this guy shamelessly wants to shag his boyfriend. The whole situation has been presented in a way that Christian seems to fear more that Rob finally gets into Olli's pants, than the fact that Olli's dangerous association with Rob could send him to prison ( "if you tell the cops, I'll take Olli down with me" )... Just my humble impression after watching the last episodes
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SF
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Post by SF on Apr 25, 2010 15:07:33 GMT -5
That's my primary upset where the show is concerned. Christian could be well within his rights as a discerning, loving boyfriend to freak out with Rob and get upset with Olli for blindly keeping up this association. IF it was aboutt eh fact that Rob was breaking the law, distributing drugs from Olli's newly established business venture (that he and Christian worked damn hard to build up) and was totally prepared to make Olli into a scapegoat when it comes to the law. Instead he's a total dickhead because the writers are making it not about the drugs, but Rob's sexual motives when it comes to Olli. It makes it not about Olli's overwhelming desire to succeed, making him blind to Rob's bad side and the consequences for not only Olli but Christian's brother's bar and their home together, and instead about Christian's lack of trust in Olli after a moment of weakness. Which is nonsensical AND hypocritical, because Christian himself has been enjoying what Rebecca has to offer in the way of comfort and made as much of an effort to hide it from Olli, as Olli did his kiss with Rob from him.
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realgal21
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Love! Love!! Love!!!
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Post by realgal21 on Apr 25, 2010 16:41:26 GMT -5
I think the Rob/Olli/Christian sub sub-plot seems to be a little bit out of focus. After having finally confirmed Rob's goals (using NL to expand his drug business and getting into Olli's pants) Christian should be very worried. I'd say absolutely, desperately worried because the love of his life is being the target of a man that is not only a hot manipulator but a ruthless crook . But by the way this story is written, IMO, it looks like Christian is more concerned because this guy shamelessly wants to shag his boyfriend. The whole situation has been presented in a way that Christian seems to fear more that Rob finally gets into Olli's pants, than the fact that Olli's dangerous association with Rob could send him to prison ( "if you tell the cops, I'll take Olli down with me" )... Just my humble impression after watching the last episodes Yah, I too felt the same. The drugs definitely should take a higher priority coz not only Olli but Gregor as well will be affected should No Limits become a drug selling depot. Not to mention Christian is acting like a jealous eighth grader instead of the adult he is. Okay the dude told you he wants to get into ur bf's pants shouldn't you shower ur bf with more love and lavish him with attention instead of passing stupid comments. personally I'd kiss my Olli everytime Ropp was present to just nail the point home to Ropp that "THIS" belongs to me so - BACK OFF!!! Just my personal opinion But then it is a soap after all, so definitely they won't behave like normal people.
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