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Post by Zathras on Aug 31, 2010 20:08:18 GMT -5
I think Reid realizes that this is an awkward situation Agreed. I don't think we can say that Noah hasn't seen a doctor at all, or that he has seen a doctor. The guy's been AWOL for most of that time, and even when he was around, he never said a single word about it. As for follow-up treatment, when has ATWT ever done any realistic medical stories? Based solely on the clip (I haven't seen today's episode), I can't tell why Reid came up to Noah. Maybe he was trying to make "peace" before Noah left, or maybe it was just him trying to be a good doctor. Either way, I'm sure he didn't expect a warm welcome from Noah.
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Post by anthonyl on Aug 31, 2010 23:12:31 GMT -5
I thought it was a great scene. I think Reid was trying to be sincere. And I think he tried because of Luke's influence. I also think he actually cares about Noah's medical health, especially since he was his doctor and doesn't want to see his hard work go to waste. But Reid is Reid so naturally his ego gets in the way and can't help but brag about his good work. I can understand Noah being testy, but he's testy because he still thinks Reid 'stole' his boyfriend. Noah, again, forgets that he and Luke were broken up before anything happened with Luke and Reid. Plus, Reid tried to get Luke and Noah back together more than once, he pressed Noah to fight for Luke, etc. etc. It's not Reid's fault things turned out like they did. However, it is Noah's.
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HQ75
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Post by HQ75 on Sept 1, 2010 0:18:08 GMT -5
What difference does it make who's fault it is? Noah FEELS like Luke was stolen from him. I don't think you can steal someone's man even if they are together. People go where they want to be.
However, it is a common soap trope so I'll ride with it.
Noah wouldn't be the first soap opera character to feel that way. Hell Holden and Dusty and Damien have been playing the "You stole my Lily" card for 20 years.
Noah's justified in being angry and frustrated about losing the man he loves REGARDLESS of whose fault it is. He's said repeatedly that he knows he was wrong to push Luke away and he regrets it. There's not much more he can do about that. (I don't personally agree with him but he's fictional and I'm not)
It's not like Noah went looking for Reid. He was sitting their minding his own business and Reid approached him.
Love and romance and relationships are not about logic and right and wrong and good or bad. Noah loves Luke therefore he regrets that he can't be with him and he's mad that Reid gets to. That' basic human nature. Both Luke and Reid have felt similarly in the last 5 months.
Just like Reid was mad when he THOUGHT Luke had gone back to Noah because he saw them talking at Java and Noah convinced Luke that Reid was jealous and told him to go after him. Noah also was the one to tell Luke that Reid quit his job for Luke.
No one ever says "Oh, Noah must really love Luke to want him to be happy even if it is with Reid". He saves his ire for Reid because he doesn't want to be mad a Luke because he feels guilty for pushing him away (again, I don't agree with him on that)
I don't know why folks think that because two people break up all of a sudden they are supposed to have no feeling for the person they've loved for 3 years. 2 months ago Luke was saying he wanted Noah back and two weeks ago Luke was turning Reid down for sex because he was thinking of Noah.
Even Luke can't say he doesn't love Noah. It's just common sense that they would still feel connected.
Luke made a decision to be with Reid after Noah got angry at LUke for making out with Reid and lying about it. That's what I saw.
Am I the only one who remembers that? It happened in May. Luke said he was in love with Noah, wanted to get back together with Noah but failed to mentioned he'd been making out with Reid while Noah was blind and then recovering.
I'm not saying Luke's feelings for Reid aren't real. But they are NEW. Very new and not the same.
LUKE also has some fault to be claimed as does Reid.
But these are soap characters. Rarely are they expected to be held accountable ( if so Lily, Carly and Meg would be underneath a jail somewhere).
Noah didn't forget that he and Luke were broken up before Reid and Luke started making out. But LUKE is the one who did the breaking up. Not Noah. Noah moved out of Lily's house but he didn't want to break up. He told Reid, Allison and Lily that. He just wanted some independence and space to think (something Luke couldn't handle and something Reid even understood at the time before he got all twitterpaited with Luke)
Luke is the one who said he couldn't wait for Noah to get his head together so he broke up with Noah. It was his decision.
THEN Luke threw a hissy fit because Noah had the nerve to have dinner with someone who was male and gay (that was AFTER Luke broke up with Noah). We had no evidence other than the fact that Richard was male and gay that anything other than dinner was going on and in fact we STILL have no evidence that they didn't just hang out and have dinner as friends. Maybe Richard was crushing on Noah but Noah was DEFINITELY not dating Richard since the FIRST thing he wanted to do when he realized he could see was get to Luke's to surprise him.
My point? Being broken up didn't stop Luke from being jealous of Noah and Richard (with no good reason). Not even being with Luke yet didn't stop Reid from being jealous of Luke and Noah sitting in Als talking and being broken up doesn't stop Noah from being in love with Luke.
Noah has a right to his feelings just like Luke and Reid have a right to theirs.
Love is not a switch you turn on and off.
Since when on a soap do you have to be free of fault to get to be in love or have a boyfriend or even have your boyfriend take you back?
If Luke could forgive Damien, he could CERTAINLY forgive Noah just as Noah has forgiven him in the past.
People on ATWT regularly get back together with ACTUALLY evil people but somehow Noah is untouchable because he has abandonment issues and an inability to let Luke wait on him hand and foot and dictate his every move?
Noah's worse fault in my book is an inability to express his emotions or let himself be vulnerable. He is fucked up in that area and just like Luke he's a product of his upbringing. At 22 or 23 I wouldn't expect him to have it all together given his past and the series of traumas he's experiences.
I'm not saying he's in the best emotional shape since his blindness or that he isn't responsible for his own actions, but folks are acting like he was secretly locking Luke in the basement or burning him with hot curlers under his shirt. Seriously.
As for the preview spoiler, whatever Reid's intentions were, I think the better part of valor would be to give Noah some space and just let the poor boy lick his wounds in piece. At this point it just feels like the show is mocking Luke and Noah's relationship by having Luke knock Noah back every few episodes so he can get to say how "serious" his relationship is with Reid so his anguish when Reid dies can be believable.
Noah's already thanked Reid a million times for the surgery and the follow-up is not something that requires Reid's expertise (as he himself said at the hospital).
If Reid is really worried about Noah's health (and I can't say he isn't) he could easily give that info to Luke to pass on to Noah or even have a nurse mail the info to Noah for follow up in LA.
I think Noah made it pretty clear how he feels but praising Reid to "Mona" then socking him one in the kisser.
Anyway, all this "Noah doesn't have a right to feel bad or be angry/frustrated or even tell Luke he loves him because everything that has ever gone wrong under the sun is his fault" is just partisan shenanigans IMO.
Being wrong or at fault never stopped Luke or Reid or anyone else on this show from going after what they want or being upset about not getting it. Why should Noah be held to a different standard?
Noah may not have a shot in hell with Luke but if I was him, I would go down fighting. I would pull out every stop I had till my flight to LA was ready for take off. Better to lose out to Reid for good after trying your best than to wonder what might have happened.
Noah loves Luke (whether you like him or not or think he "deserves" Luke or not, love is worth fighting for)
If I was Noah I'd be editing a short film of every sweet loving moment he and Luke have had for 3 years so that I could project it on the wall outside Java and threaten to not stop until Luke took me back a la John Cusack "Say Anything" style. But I'm a child of the John Hughes 80s romantic comedy.
It's just a shame that the writers couldn't break free of the choke hold P&G has on their cajones so they could write a proper send off for NUKE and for Reid.
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Post by anthonyl on Sept 1, 2010 0:47:08 GMT -5
What difference does it make who's fault it is? It matters a lot. And in this case it matters because until and unless Noah is ready to accept his role in what happened (and not make excuses, just own up period), nothing is going to go nowhere. And Luke and Noah were pretty much broken up BEFORE Luke made it official. When you move out from your lover, cut yourself off from him and refer to you being 'just friends', that's breaking up. So the relationship was over before it was over. I can't see Noah's viewpoint but his view is not based in reality. His perspective is the wrong one. As long as he continues to see things not as they happened but with his own spin that makes him the victim, a role he loves to drape himself in, there's no chance for resolution.
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HQ75
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Post by HQ75 on Sept 1, 2010 1:35:14 GMT -5
What difference does it make who's fault it is? It matters a lot. And in this case it matters because until and unless Noah is ready to accept his role in what happened (and not make excuses, just own up period), nothing is going to go nowhere. And Luke and Noah were pretty much broken up BEFORE Luke made it official. When you move out from your lover, cut yourself off from him and refer to you being 'just friends', that's breaking up. So the relationship was over before it was over. I can't see Noah's viewpoint but his view is not based in reality. His perspective is the wrong one. As long as he continues to see things not as they happened but with his own spin that makes him the victim, a role he loves to drape himself in, there's no chance for resolution. Dude you are just biased. Period. There is no amount of sorry that would every be good enough for you. Noah HAD admitted he was wrong to push Luke away (which is Luke's major complaint with Noah while he was blind). Noah apologized to Luke and said to both Lily and Reid that he knows he was wrong to do it. He even said it to Richard. That IS taking responsibility. He can't go back in time and change the past and he can't automatically be a different person. And in terms of horrible things you can do to a person, not allowing them to coddle you and wait on you hand and foot and orchestrate your every move and cut your meat and tie your shoes is not the WORSE thing a person could do. Noah knew he couldn't deal with Luke hovering and smoothering (yes, coming from a loving and caring place but still...) and he knew Luke couldn't stop himself so he removed himself from the situation but made it clear that he loved Luke and just needed space to deal with his blindness. He didn't break up with Luke, he didn't leave town, he didn't send Luke to hell, he just moved out. He even offered to stay and help Luke deal with Damian's "death" but Luke was all "All of you or nothing now git!" So he got! Noh has never once made himself the victim, not in terms of Luke or anything else. Back in 2009, he was angry about the accident and his anger was misplaced but he was over that when he returned from blind school where he was able to calm down and gain some independence (for which he thanked Luke profusely) Noah has no way of knowing what was going on while he was blind and as far as he knew, Luke and Reid hated each other and neither one of them had the guts to let him know what was going on after Texas but then he gets his sight back and the day he gets out of the hospital, he sees them making out. Whether he had a RIGHT to expect Luke to want him or a RIGHT to feel jealous and angry, he still FELT IT and it made total sense that he would. His life had been put on hold (in his mind) for 6 months and his future was completely uncertain then he finally gets his sight back and THAT is the first time he actually, clearly sees Luke. Making out with his surgeon. I can't think of anyone who wouldn't be shocked by finding out that his VERY recent ex-boyfriend with whom they are still in love is making out with the doctor who just cut open their brain. The fact that you can't see why that would be upsetting to Noah (whether he has a RIGHT to be upset or not) just shows that you are too biased to see both sides. There is nothing unrealistic about how Noah FEELS. He feels like his life was stolen from him. It's perfectly normal reaction to a VERY unusual situation. Luke had a right to move on and Noah has a right to be jealous and hurt. I for one thing it was unrealistic for anyone to expect Noah to be focused on processing his relationship with Luke when he was trying to deal with the fact that he was blind and could never be a film maker and MIGHT be dependent upon others for the rest of his life. Moving out seemed like a perfectly reasonable thing to do under the circumstances and I think Luke over-reacted (like he always does) and jumped to conclusions about what Noah was going through (like he often does) and as usually, he pushed and pushed until they had no choice BUT to break up. Yet he was STILL jealous of Richard after he broke up with Noah. That was the point. FEELING are not logical and you can't control them. Luke, Reid and Noah each have exhibited questionable judgment in this situation and each has let his feelings run amok. I'm going to leave it alone. You are entitled to not like Noah and never see his side but even you have to acknowledge that there is more than one way to look at a situation and just as you seem to see things from Luke and Reid's perspective only and always, there are plenty of us who can see all sides equally. I also think the whole "You made your bed, now lie in it" kind of logic as applied to Noah is very convenient because no one EVER applies that logic to Luke or Reid or practically anyone on ATWT (accept Meg and Allison whom folks seem to hate as much as some hate Noah) We'll have to just retreat to our separate corners because talking about anything having to do with Noah with you has never served anyone well.
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Post by anthonyl on Sept 1, 2010 6:19:29 GMT -5
I never said Noah didn't have reason to feel like he does. He fu**ed over his boyfriend, but expected him to be there when he decided he wanted to be in the relationship and was shocked to discover that life and people move on. Now he's mad because unlike all the other times he dumped Luke for whatever reason, Luke wasn't ready and waiting, bowing and scraping when Noah came back. He can be hurt and upset and he has reason. He lost the guy he claims he loves. But what I'm saying is Noah needs to own that it HIS FAULT he lost his man. It's not Luke's. It's not Reid's. They didn't walk out of the relationship, Noah did. Doesn't matter why. He did it. He has a right to be angry, bitter, hurt and all that stuff. All I'm saying is it's misplaced. He can be mad at Luke and Reid and the postman and whoever. But it's not their fault he's going to LA alone. That's all on him. But Noah refuses to see that. Apparently he's not the only one.
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Post by Bonobochick on Sept 2, 2010 9:35:50 GMT -5
Now that it's open again, reminder for folks to:
- Stop personal attacks or post your drama elsewhere either by choice or by being banned.
- Cease telling folks what they like or don't like is wrong. It's all about perspective and not everyone is going to agree. Point out why you don't share the same opinion but respect the differences. Keep it about the characters and the storylines.
- Accept that if you can't prove something with FACTS, then move on instead of twisting things to try to fit. Have your own opinion but don't make shit up to prove a point that was not absolute truth in the first place. It only adds to an already tense situation.
- Speak for yourself and not other fans, whether it's the ones who share a similar opinion or the ones who don't. Enough with the baiting or inflammatory comments about other fans on the board.
Thanks.
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md1347
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Post by md1347 on Sept 2, 2010 10:36:39 GMT -5
FYI... according to soap mags... Reid dies tuesday, which will be the full hour. LuRe made cover of SOW.
According to SOD, Ali tells Noah about Reid dying and Noah offers to stay to be there for Luke, but Luke tells him not to. Van says you'll see a reconnection between Luke and Noah, maybe only as friends, but they'll love each other for the rest of their lives.
Luke tells Noah that he and Reid never had sex and it's his biggest regret about their relationship.
SOW has a spoiler for next week where Ali encourages Noah to be there for Luke.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 2, 2010 11:00:32 GMT -5
I wonder if Noah's sign that he's grown be that he realizes that Luke is right, and that he needs to leave. And, i wonder why does Allie need to tell Noah that he should comfort Luke, he should know this on his own.
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md1347
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Post by md1347 on Sept 2, 2010 11:08:17 GMT -5
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Post by Bonobochick on Sept 2, 2010 11:25:22 GMT -5
I wonder if Noah's sign that he's grown be that he realizes that Luke is right, and that he needs to leave. And, i wonder why does Allie need to tell Noah that he should comfort Luke, he should know this on his own. Maybe Noah after being dealt the blow with Luke's love declaration about Reid and realizing his own feelings are still raw doesn't feel it's his place to comfort Luke considering where things are left with their last conversation. I know I wouldn't expect one of my ex-boyfriends to race to my side to comfort me if my current boyfriend was fatally injured. Guess it's different for everyone. Boy really can't catch a break with his behavior it seems. Either he's a selfish stalker because he makes his feelings known when he runs into Luke or he's a selfish asshole because he doesn't immediately run to Luke's side when Luke's grieving (even though Luke has a family there to also hold his hand at this time). I guess like death & taxes the only other sure thing is Noah can't do anything right.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 2, 2010 11:46:28 GMT -5
If Noah is Luke's friend, I would expect him to set aside his own feelings, and put Luke first. But, I guess he wasn't just being childish when he said that they can't be friends.
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md1347
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Post by md1347 on Sept 2, 2010 11:51:03 GMT -5
Van quotes on another board.
"Luke's pretty broken at the end of it." Viewers will no doubt be broken, too, since Reid and Luke won a lot of, er, hearts. "I feel really bad about that, and I hope that the fans are able to see that although they're killing off Reid, they're not dishonoring his character at all...." "The show's not killing him because they want to kill him, or because they don't like this character," stresses Hansis. "I think that if this show hadn't gone off the air, Reid would not have been killed. They're really making Reid a hero...."
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Post by Hawthorne on Sept 2, 2010 11:52:24 GMT -5
So Luke and Reid don't have sex? That annoys me more than anything else about this ending. As if they'd be able to go five minutes without having sex in reality.
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md1347
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Post by md1347 on Sept 2, 2010 11:54:50 GMT -5
If Noah is Luke's friend, I would expect him to set aside his own feelings, and put Luke first. But, I guess he wasn't just being childish when he said that they can't be friends. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions until you watch it on screen. Noah is probably thinking that Luke probably wouldn't want to see him. I'll ignore the baiting in your post.
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Post by Bonobochick on Sept 2, 2010 11:57:29 GMT -5
If Noah is Luke's friend, I would expect him to set aside his own feelings, and put Luke first. But, I guess he wasn't just being childish when he said that they can't be friends. Noah already said it was too hard for him to be Luke's friend right now. He was honest about it and that's not wrong of him to feel that way. It wouldn't be easy for him to be in a place where the guy he wants to be with is with someone else and likely talking about that person non-stop. Nothing wrong with needing time and space to deal with his feelings, especially after Luke told him to enjoy LA. I don't think it is childish to not be able to immediately (or ever) be friends with an ex you're still in love with. I guess it's different for everyone but I would think it's too painful to hang out with someone you're in love with who is in a relationship with someone they've told you they love. I think the mature thing was that Noah acknowledged this finally and realized he needed time away to deal but I guess that was wrong of him too. If Luke had no one else for support like Noah has no one, then I could possibly see the argument where Noah should try to push his own pain aside having a stronger foundation but Luke has his whole family there to support him (and like the spoilers say, Lily and Holden help Luke through this time). He's not alone. Or as md1347 stated: Noah is probably thinking that Luke probably wouldn't want to see him. That is also a possibility in how things will play out.
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md1347
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Post by md1347 on Sept 2, 2010 11:57:38 GMT -5
So Luke and Reid don't have sex? That annoys me more than anything else about this ending. As if they'd be able to go five minutes without having sex in reality. With the history of the show, did you really expect them to have sex, especially since the summer was dry of virtually any contact?
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md1347
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Post by md1347 on Sept 2, 2010 12:00:40 GMT -5
If Luke had no one else for support like Noah has no one, then I could possibly see the argument where Noah should try to push his own pain aside having a stronger foundation but Luke has his whole family there to support him (and like the spoilers say, Lily and Holden help Luke through this time). He's not alone. Spumor is that Noah will show up a day or 2 extra than Jake says. But if the show wanted Noah on more, they could have. They just didn't want too. It's funny how it's all Noah's fault... actually, no, it's the writers fault for being dicks.
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Post by Bonobochick on Sept 2, 2010 12:02:34 GMT -5
If Luke had no one else for support like Noah has no one, then I could possibly see the argument where Noah should try to push his own pain aside having a stronger foundation but Luke has his whole family there to support him (and like the spoilers say, Lily and Holden help Luke through this time). He's not alone. Spumor is that Noah will show up a day or 2 extra than Jake says. But if the show wanted Noah on more, they could have. They just didn't want too. It's funny how it's all Noah's fault... actually, no, it's the writers fault for being dicks. No, it's Jake's fault for being busy with his movie (or running over one of the PTB's dog). Interesting spumor. Curious to see if it comes true.
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md1347
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Post by md1347 on Sept 2, 2010 12:05:10 GMT -5
Spumor is that Noah will show up a day or 2 extra than Jake says. But if the show wanted Noah on more, they could have. They just didn't want too. It's funny how it's all Noah's fault... actually, no, it's the writers fault for being dicks. No, it's Jake's fault for being busy with his movie (or running over one of the PTB's dog). Interesting spumor. Curious to see if it comes true. If Ali talks to him, that can't be the 16th, so it only makes sense. So much for CG saying the death would happen the in the last week.
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Post by jjose712 on Sept 2, 2010 13:03:06 GMT -5
Wow, Van for sure is having a tough time trying to explain all this nonsense.
And Noah not conforting Luke after Reid's death is totally on character. Luke has a lot of flaws, but Noah has a good bunch of his own, and this is one of them. He had a tough time being by Luke's side when the Col shot Luke. And yes, that time and this time, he has reasons to believe that Luke doesn't want him there (well, this time has more reasons than in the past), but that shouldn't stop him to be there for Luke. Yes, he could expose himself to be rejected, but that's what he must to do. And this is not about him, or his feelings for Luke, is about Luke, the one he is in love, who is having a really bad time
{snip} Nuke became boring for two things, TPTB were scared of the pressure of conservatives, and specially because the writers are really really bad (because the fact that they can't show intimacy has nothing to do with write good storylines for them, and probably if people were entertained by what they watch, they would be a lot less mad about the lack of intimacy). The actors get a really hard time when they face the kiss ban, because the media didn't pressure P&G or even CBS, they pressure Van and Jake with a lot of uncomfortable interviews, when for someone with a decent brain, it would be obvious that they had any control over the storyline. And right now they are putting there in an unconfortable situation again, because all this storyline is very hard to sell. It's difficult to explain why an actor who make a lot of publicity for this show (and is on of the most popular actors of the show) is barely there. It's difficult to explain the necesity to kill a character who is the media darling all these months (and the writers praised him a lot), specially after saying that if the show continues LuRe will be the it couple (something that i think nobody really believes, maybe Reid is better integrated in other storylines that Noah ever was, but LuRe as a couple would face the same fate that Nuke in terms of the relationship if the show wasn't cancelled). And it's really really hard to explain why the only core character (in a show full of people of dubious morality) who has a bad ending is the gay one.
The situation is a lot worse for Van and Jake than for Eric, because they are a lot more concious about what the fanbases want, and they put a lot more in the storyline. So i hope they find new (and good) jobs soon, and they can pass all this as soon as possible (and not months and months of the same questions in interviews)
See the post on previous page regarding talking about other fans being a no-no. Also, please keep on topic and discuss the future and not the past. What has happened can go in a general discussion thread. -Bchick
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 2, 2010 13:36:44 GMT -5
No, it's not wrong that he feels that way, but it's not very mature to put those feelings ahead of something that is a lot more important. Being there for Luke isn't about Reid, it's about helping Luke. Noah can go back to being petty, and only thinking of himself a few days after he helps Noah.
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Post by Bonobochick on Sept 2, 2010 13:50:55 GMT -5
Thus he is petty to actually want time away to deal with his feelings & reflect on how to move past no longer selfishly stalking Luke to declare his feelings. How dare Noah not be there for Luke and push himself past the other 20 or so people supporting Luke to be there at that moment, including Luke's own parents, so that he could selfishly be Luke's sole support system.
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Post by jjose712 on Sept 2, 2010 13:56:31 GMT -5
It's not a question about if Luke is alone in his pain or not, it's about being there for someone he loves. Of course it will be painful for Noah, but it's what he has to do
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2010 14:11:09 GMT -5
I think one shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that for the instances where Noah might have had a sense of obligation to be there by Luke’s side as his boyfriend, there is no such thing there now. Some romantic relationships end in friendship, others don’t and yet others take more time to get there. Noah’s not even in “friend” territory now, even if it’s because of his own inability to move on yet. He also hasn’t thought or said the best things about Reid to Luke before the guy died, so, more awkwardness. It’s not like Luke’s been clinging to Noah’s friendship in recent weeks either. At best, their current relationship is undefined. I don’t see the need for expectations from either party at this point. But I think Noah can try to be there anyway simply out of lingering love, for as long as Luke lets him. There’s nothing to be forced here. How and how long he’ll actually be there will have to be essentially on Luke’s terms.
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