restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Aug 14, 2008 14:47:42 GMT -5
It seems to me that Olli wasn't being happy about hurting Olivia. I don't think that's really what his aim was, nor do I think that was what actually happened. Olli got a zinger in. I took a dig at Olivia. He's giving her a bit of her own medicine. Who hasn't sometimes been pleased with a zinger they've been able to plant? Notice, too, how Olli closed the door. It wasn't slammed in Olivia's face. It was closed gently. Sure she was standing right there, so a message was given, but that Olli didn't slam it seems important to me. And maybe part of the smile was some self-satisfaction along the lines of "So, I guess I don't have to be Olivia's doormat." I see it as being a long way away from smiling at a malicious act of hurting someone. And, as Lola pointed out, Olivia's done far worse in a cavalier, off-the-cuff manner. She should be able to take this, and worse without really being wounded.
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Post by Bonobochick on Aug 14, 2008 14:51:52 GMT -5
It seems to me that Olli wasn't being happy about hurting Olivia. I don't think that's really what his aim was, nor do I think that was what actually happened. Olli got a zinger in. I took a dig at Olivia. He's giving her a bit of her own medicine. Who hasn't sometimes been pleased with a zinger they've been able to plant? Notice, too, how Olli closed the door. It wasn't slammed in Olivia's face. It was closed gently. Sure she was standing right there, so a message was given, but that Olli didn't slam it seems important to me. And maybe part of the smile was some self-satisfaction along the lines of "So, I guess I don't have to be Olivia's doormat." I see it as being a long way away from smiling at a malicious act of hurting someone. And, as Lola pointed out, Olivia's done far worse in a cavalier, off-the-cuff manner. She should be able to take this, and worse without really being wounded. Which is true but isn't what my problem was.
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Post by psionycx on Aug 14, 2008 14:55:33 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from though while I agree Olivia takes Olli for granted, I don't think he's her long suffering victim. Olli standing up for himself & being pleased about it is one thing, Olli seeming to take pleasure in hurting someone else, even someone he is angry with, is another. Putting aside that she's blackmailed him twice (and keeping in mind that he's been back in town less than a year!) he's also been one of her staunchest defenders even with Charlie, whom eh adores like a mother. That Olivia pulled the stunts she did (and Olli knows only a fraction of the real story), especially during the tense run-up to Christian's first big fight really hurt him I think. To me it makes it look like the loyalty is all one-way. Olivia expects Olli to support her no matter what she does. If he steps out of line and chooses not to do so she immediately resorts to threats. To me that makes it seem like Olivia sees Olli's friendship and support as an entitlement and not a gift. It's something she feels she has a right to and doesn't need to feel grateful for. Given that Olli just had the stuffing beaten out of him recently, on top of all the stress from the weeks before (which Olivia certainly did not help with) I think it's to be expected that he's a little on edge. That he had a chance to vent at Olivia and make it clear how he feels about the way she casually expects him to be there for her is something I can easily see bringing a smile to his face. he doesn't want to be used anymore. Remember that he had a blow-up with Christian on this same topic just before the fight. This is an interesting discussion I think, because a lot of people have commented before that Olli lets people use him too much. Now he seems to be standing up for himself more.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 14, 2008 14:59:00 GMT -5
You used words like hurt and malicious to describe what Olli did. I don't see how that can be claimed in this scene.
We can all speculate about why Olli was smiling (he was happy that he had finally told her off, he enjoyed being malicious, he finds it freeing to finally try it Christian's way and do a hard stance rather than be understanding), but I just don't see how telling Olivia that she drove her friends away with her attitudes can be considered malicious or hurtful. Particularly if one considers Olivia's normal mode of interacting with people.
Sure Olli is hyper understanding and sensitive, but he is that mostly in regards to Christian who is after all the person who is giving him good sex. Before that he was quite capable of snark.
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Post by Bonobochick on Aug 14, 2008 15:00:49 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from though while I agree Olivia takes Olli for granted, I don't think he's her long suffering victim. Olli standing up for himself & being pleased about it is one thing, Olli seeming to take pleasure in hurting someone else, even someone he is angry with, is another. Putting aside that she's blackmailed him twice (and keeping in mind that he's been back in town less than a year!) he's also been one of her staunchest defenders even with Charlie, whom eh adores like a mother. That Olivia pulled the stunts she did (and Olli knows only a fraction of the real story), especially during the tense run-up to Christian's first big fight really hurt him I think. To me it makes it look like the loyalty is all one-way. Olivia expects Olli to support her no matter what she does. If he steps out of line and chooses not to do so she immediately resorts to threats. To me that makes it seem like Olivia sees Olli's friendship and support as an entitlement and not a gift. It's something she feels she has a right to and doesn't need to feel grateful for. Given that Olli just had the stuffing beaten out of him recently, on top of all the stress from the weeks before (which Olivia certainly did not help with) I think it's to be expected that he's a little on edge. That he had a chance to vent at Olivia and make it clear how he feels about the way she casually expects him to be there for her is something I can easily see bringing a smile to his face. he doesn't want to be used anymore. Remember that he had a blow-up with Christian on this same topic just before the fight. This is an interesting discussion I think, because a lot of people have commented before that Olli lets people use him too much. Now he seems to be standing up for himself more. That's not all that shocking considering it was over the same matter and within a few weeks of each other. Not justifying it, just not seeing it as shocking. Like I said, from your point of view, I can see why the smile didn't bother you. To me, if just seemed out of character for Olli and so it bothered me (which I find interesting that my argument was solely that I found Olli smiling at being not nice really out of character and it seems to somehow be about Olivia when my comment was about Olli's behavior ). Different strokes and all...
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Post by psionycx on Aug 14, 2008 15:01:50 GMT -5
Sure Olli is hyper understanding and sensitive, but he is that mostly in regards to Christian who is after all the person who is giving him good sex. Before that he was quite capable of snark. This is an excellent point. Olli wasn't nearly so adoring of Christian in the beginning. There was actually quite a bit tension between them (gee, I wonder why...?). Then he fell madly in love with Christian and became a bit of a puppy. But even that has it's limits as we saw recently.
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eldanesh
Junior Member
insane in the membrane.
Posts: 251
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Post by eldanesh on Aug 14, 2008 15:06:06 GMT -5
Oh, and just because I'm wondering: why do men wear their watches in bed? Why not take them off? I notice Christian never takes off his watch. (It's a watch, right?) well i know i never take of my watch either, but that's mainly because i'd probably lose it by the time i woke up
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Post by psionycx on Aug 14, 2008 15:06:31 GMT -5
That's not all that shocking considering it was over the same matter and within a few weeks of each other. Not justifying it, just not seeing it as shocking. Like I said, from your point of view, I can see why the smile didn't bother you. To me, if just seemed out of character for Olli and so it bothered me (which I find interesting that my argument was solely that I found Olli smiling at being not nice really out of character and it seems to somehow be about Olivia when my comment was about Olli's behavior ). Different strokes and all... Well I think I would have a different opinion if I saw Olli smirking after saying something harsh to, for example, Judith. Then I would agree that he would be acting very odd. But it keeps coming back to Olivia's behavior because she's a special case. Of all the women Olli is surrounded by these days (Judith, Lydia, Rebecca and Charlie) it seems like Olivia has shown the least respect or appreciation for him. And she's the one he likes to think of as a sister! To me it's Olivia's behavior that makes the smile make sense. Not that Olli was being cross with somebody and happy about it.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Aug 14, 2008 15:07:14 GMT -5
It seems to me that Olli wasn't being happy about hurting Olivia. I don't think that's really what his aim was, nor do I think that was what actually happened. Olli got a zinger in. I took a dig at Olivia. He's giving her a bit of her own medicine. Who hasn't sometimes been pleased with a zinger they've been able to plant? Notice, too, how Olli closed the door. It wasn't slammed in Olivia's face. It was closed gently. Sure she was standing right there, so a message was given, but that Olli didn't slam it seems important to me. And maybe part of the smile was some self-satisfaction along the lines of "So, I guess I don't have to be Olivia's doormat." I see it as being a long way away from smiling at a malicious act of hurting someone. And, as Lola pointed out, Olivia's done far worse in a cavalier, off-the-cuff manner. She should be able to take this, and worse without really being wounded. Which is true but isn't what my problem was. And what I bolded wasn't may main point, either. One could completely remove that sentence and what I was trying to say would be fully there. If I understood your post correctly, the problem was that it seemed out of character that Olli was happy or cheerful after hurting someone. I was trying to respond directly to that and say why I didn't agree. It just seems to me that Olli doesn't really see it as a malicious attempt to actually hurt Olivia, all while still wanting little or nothing to do with her.
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Post by psionycx on Aug 14, 2008 15:08:44 GMT -5
well i know i never take of my watch either, but that's mainly because i'd probably lose it by the time i woke up Why wear a watch in this day and age anyway? Almost everyone carries a cellphone at all times and you can tell the time on that. I stopped wearing a watch years ago! Watches in bed, shoes on the furniture, Pesto from a can... Are we really sure these guys are gay?!
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Post by amber80 on Aug 14, 2008 15:08:47 GMT -5
Sure Olli is hyper understanding and sensitive, but he is that mostly in regards to Christian who is after all the person who is giving him good sex. Before that he was quite capable of snark. This is an excellent point. Olli wasn't nearly so adoring of Christian in the beginning. There was actually quite a bit tension between them (gee, I wonder why...?). Then he fell madly in love with Christian and became a bit of a puppy. But even that has it's limits as we saw recently. And even before Christian he wasn't always so nice and understanding. Last week I finally caught up on the old Tom/Olli episode and Olli wasn't always a nice puppy. ;D Which is a good thing, because people who are nice and understanding all the time just don't exist and to be honest: are quite boring too.
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Post by mona on Aug 14, 2008 15:09:37 GMT -5
I always thought Oliver was nice to Olivia because of his past. He lost almost everybody during his stealing phase. He wanted Olivia to live with them because no one wanted to help him and he was lucky to have Andi as a friend (He wanted to be this friend for Olivia). But the blackmailing was too much because it was about Christian and he has his loyalty now. I think that's natural. It was so sweet when Olivia told Olli before the fight that she would never do that to him and then: or to him (Christian). I believed her. She wouldn't have done anything because she loves Olli and she respects Christian now because he is practically family as Ollis boyfriend.
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Post by Bonobochick on Aug 14, 2008 15:16:17 GMT -5
Which is true but isn't what my problem was. And what I bolded wasn't may main point, either. One could completely remove that sentence and what I was trying to say would be fully there. If I understood your post correctly, the problem was that it seemed out of character that Olli was happy or cheerful after hurting someone. I was trying to respond directly to that and say why I didn't agree. It just seems to me that Olli doesn't really see it as a malicious attempt to actually hurt Olivia, all while still wanting little or nothing to do with her. That's not all that shocking considering it was over the same matter and within a few weeks of each other. Not justifying it, just not seeing it as shocking. Like I said, from your point of view, I can see why the smile didn't bother you. To me, if just seemed out of character for Olli and so it bothered me (which I find interesting that my argument was solely that I found Olli smiling at being not nice really out of character and it seems to somehow be about Olivia when my comment was about Olli's behavior ). Different strokes and all... Well I think I would have a different opinion if I saw Olli smirking after saying something harsh to, for example, Judith. Then I would agree that he would be acting very odd. But it keeps coming back to Olivia's behavior because she's a special case. Of all the women Olli is surrounded by these days (Judith, Lydia, Rebecca and Charlie) it seems like Olivia has shown the least respect or appreciation for him. And she's the one he likes to think of as a sister! To me it's Olivia's behavior that makes the smile make sense. Not that Olli was being cross with somebody and happy about it. Ah, it's all about intepretation and what one considers out of character & for me, I found Olli out of character in that scene. While I see where you're both coming from, it's not going to change how the scene came across to me but I am cool with folks not agreeing with me in how they intepretated the scene especially cause debating it doesn't change my mind at all. I am not trying to change anyone else's mind cause I honestly don't mind if no one saw the scene like me which is why I am not trying to change how other see it, just stating why it bothered me and being fine with just that.
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Post by amber80 on Aug 14, 2008 15:16:50 GMT -5
well i know i never take of my watch either, but that's mainly because i'd probably lose it by the time i woke up Why wear a watch in this day and age anyway? Almost everyone carries a cellphone at all times and you can tell the time on that. I stopped wearing a watch years ago! Watches in bed, shoes on the furniture, Pesto from a can... Are we really sure these guys are gay?! I stopped wearing a watch too because I use my cellphone. But Christian obviously isn't glued to his phone yet; unlike Fabian.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Aug 14, 2008 15:26:51 GMT -5
Oh, and just because I'm wondering: why do men wear their watches in bed? Why not take them off? I notice Christian never takes off his watch. (It's a watch, right?) well i know i never take of my watch either, but that's mainly because i'd probably lose it by the time i woke up If I'm just taking a nap, then I usually leave it on. But if I'm going to bed for the night, the watch comes off. Why wear a watch in this day and age anyway? Almost everyone carries a cellphone at all times and you can tell the time on that. I stopped wearing a watch years ago! I always have a watch with me, either a wrist watch or a pocket watch. I feel naked without it. Even if I carried my cell phone with me at all times (which I don't), there are many situations where I think it is inappropriate to keep it on. Want to know what time it is in a movie. Please check your watch, not a cell phone. My watch I can at least have some knowledge about its accuracy. Clocks one finds here and there are not always accurate. And I haven't found the cell phone clocks entirely reliable. Of recent phones, one does sync regularly with at least some networks, but another one was almost always inaccurate (even on its home network). Sorry, this is getting off topic.....
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 14, 2008 15:27:54 GMT -5
My take on the discussion is this, you said it would be out of character for Olli to smile happily over hurting somebody. Many probably agree that that would indeed be out of character. But some of us argued that that isn't what took place because what Olli did wasn't malicious or hurtful (because Olivia snarks too, because he is just telling her the truth, because he has a reason to be mad, that what he said wasn't overly harsh anyway etc). You mean how you judged it before you had actually watched the clip just based on the pictures, by your own words. Let alone while having the dialog. I actually tend to see the a bit more laid back and snarky Olli as the natural Olli. And that the hyper sensitive Olli is really mostly Olli's mind being clouded by sex and romance [after all, we remember how that attitude went away when Olli wasn't getting any sex] Which is precisely why I wouldn't necessarily expect this attitude to extend to people other than Christian. Olli was loyal even before. He defended Olivia against Coco and Christian. He spoke up for Coco because he liked her and thought Christian wasn't treating her well. But he wasn't mindlessly sappy and understanding. He thought Christian was an ass at one point and told him so openly. He confronted Olivia about lying to Andi and that he could tell that she was lying and probably using the fact that Andi was really in love with her. He quite lashed into Coco and Christian when he thought they were wrong about Olivia rather than being all diplomatic and looking for a compromise. He let Coco down very clearly when she told him that she had feelings for him. And I seem to remember him dodging calls from Timo and snarking with Olivia about the guys they had or hadn't found hot while clubbing. So he wasn't all sweet sunshine Olli who is friendly to and loves everybody. [and back when Olli arrived Jo Weil said in a bunch of interviews that during his time on the ship Olli had grown a bit more hardass and wasn't as sweet and understanding as he used to be during his last stint (too bad that Christian seems to have canceled all that out again)]
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Post by Bonobochick on Aug 14, 2008 15:37:26 GMT -5
My take on the discussion is this, you said it would be out of character for Olli to smile happily over hurting somebody. Many probably agree that that would indeed be out of character. But some of us argued that that isn't what took place because what Olli did wasn't malicious or hurtful (because Olivia snarks too, because he is just telling her the truth, because he has a reason to be mad, that what he said wasn't overly harsh anyway etc). You mean how you judged it before you had actually watched the clip just based on the pictures, by your own words. Let alone while having the dialog. I actually tend to see the a bit more laid back and snarky Olli as the natural Olli. And that the hyper sensitive Olli is really mostly Olli's mind being clouded by sex and romance [after all, we remember how that attitude went away when Olli wasn't getting any sex] Which is precisely why I wouldn't necessarily expect this attitude to extend to people other than Christian. Olli was loyal even before. He defended Olivia against Coco and Christian. He spoke up for Coco because he liked her and thought Christian wasn't treating her well. But he wasn't mindlessly sappy and understanding. He thought Christian was an ass at one point and told him so openly. He confronted Olivia about lying to Andi and that he could tell that she was lying and probably using the fact that Andi was really in love with her. He quite lashed into Coco and Christian when he thought they were wrong about Olivia rather than being all diplomatic and looking for a compromise. He let Coco down very clearly when she told him that she had feelings for him. And I seem to remember him dodging calls from Timo and snarking with Olivia about the guys they had or hadn't found hot while clubbing. So he wasn't all sweet sunshine Olli who is friendly to and loves everybody. [and back when Olli arrived Jo Weil said in a bunch of interviews that during his time on the ship Olli had grown a bit more hardass and wasn't as sweet and understanding as he used to be during his last stint (too bad that Christian seems to have canceled all that out again)] That is assuming a lot. Who says in the interim of this discussion that I haven't watched the clip and that my opinion between seeing the screencaps and watching the clip didn't change anything at all regarding my intepretation? We don't have to agree on the interpretation of the scene. It doesn't always have to be a debate to make people see something the way you do; that others can have a different opinion and that's fine too.
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Post by psionycx on Aug 14, 2008 15:42:26 GMT -5
So he wasn't all sweet sunshine Olli who is friendly to and loves everybody. I think Olli is a very nice guy, but he isn't a sappy one. Olli worships Christian because he's very much in love with him. But he also knows when Christian needs to be pushed as has been the case on numerous occasions. In fact, it's Olli's strength that helped Christian accomplish all that he these last few months and Christian freely (indeed very publicly) admits this. The main person for whom Olli has been a sap is actually Olivia, because he sees her as a little sister. He's shown that kind of indulgence that you feel for a younger sibling, until these last few episodes. Olli is still not the equal of Christian in this space. Christian who unleashes his Glare of Righteousness super power on others all the time (usually at his big brother). Obviously Olli is very sweet when he loves. He was adorable with Christian today and it's obvious Christian loves the affection.
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Post by GayTime on Aug 14, 2008 15:49:13 GMT -5
There's a rather poisonous atmosphere in this epi thread here today as opposed to the 'live and let live' which we all like and normally have. Or is that just me?
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Post by aussie54 on Aug 14, 2008 15:50:46 GMT -5
I think your discussion is going around in circles now. Back to the topic ... Thanks Ivan! Olli and Christian look stunning today. Perhaps it's because we haven't seen them much lately. They certainly compare well with the Olympians. ;D Olli, especially, is fit. Awwww... Gorgeous! Yes!! Olli's nose ... *sigh* I noticed that! Is there any part of Olli that isn't gorgeous? ;D
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Post by amber80 on Aug 14, 2008 16:02:58 GMT -5
Awwww... Gorgeous! Yes!! Olli's nose ... *sigh* Hahaha.... I actually meant Christian. ;D
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Aug 14, 2008 16:04:25 GMT -5
My take on the discussion is this, you said it would be out of character for Olli to smile happily over hurting somebody. Many probably agree that that would indeed be out of character. But some of us argued that that isn't what took place because what Olli did wasn't malicious or hurtful (because Olivia snarks too, because he is just telling her the truth, because he has a reason to be mad, that what he said wasn't overly harsh anyway etc). I'm in agreement with Lola on this. I would be one of those who would actually agree that it would be out of character for Olli to be smiling or happy at hurting another person. (Which isn't the same as saying that Olli might not actually hurt another person, even on purpose.) I don't agree that Olli is acting out of character because it doesn't seem to me that Olli was being hurtful. The way that Olli closed the door is an important piece of data for me on that. Further, my take on the conversation has been that it hasn't been about saying that anyone is wrong or about persuading people to a different view. Rather, it seems to me that the conversation has been about why each of us sees the scene as we each do, and sometimes seeking to clarify what that might be. I, for one, haven't seen anything particularly poisonous about it. Just that there exists a difference of opinion (and perhaps some places where greater clarity in expression or understanding may have been beneficial).
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Post by ivaniv on Aug 14, 2008 16:05:03 GMT -5
I noticed that! Is there any part of Olli that isn't gorgeous? ;D We haven't seen everything to be really able to tell BTW I wasn't sure about Christian's new hair at first, but I really like it now. I was watching older clips and his dark hair looked strange ;D
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Post by psionycx on Aug 14, 2008 16:07:50 GMT -5
The hair was pretty decent today. I guess I'm getting used to it.
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Post by GayTime on Aug 14, 2008 16:08:32 GMT -5
I noticed that! Is there any part of Olli that isn't gorgeous? ;D We haven't seen everything to be really able to tell BTW I wasn't sure about Christian's new hair at first, but I really like it now. I was watching older clips and his dark hair looked strange ;D I hated big on those highlights - but they seem to make sense for the lightning / post-production color adjustment they do on VERBOTENE LIEBE, cause on the show they work really well.
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