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Post by lucrece on Aug 6, 2008 1:50:42 GMT -5
My home was not the most pleasant of places. However, my room was always a haven, separate from whatever feelings the rest of the place evoked.
In that way, Olli may just be wanting to get to his bed, and sleep/rest the episode over.
As for the hospital behavior, I'd venture to say that, since Olli seems to be socialized like an average male, he'd react like average males do when they become victims: They shut the episode out. Realizing the becoming of a victim would send them on an identity crisis, as it is unbecoming of what a man is (I'm speaking through society's perspective).
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Post by ivaniv on Aug 6, 2008 5:21:19 GMT -5
Well, like I've been saying, the big sticking point for me is that Axel is running loose. It's seems just plain irrational to not consider that a point of concern given what just happened to Olli. In fact, Axel very explicitly said he was going to attack Christian next. Considering that Olli was beaten badly enough to go to a hospital one would think that he would not consider that an empty threat. Axel knows where he lives and is a potential threat to Christian (as well as Gregor, Judith and Lydia quite frankly). This wasn't a random mugging. Olli was attacked by a known person with an openly stated grudge and intent to commit further violence. That Olli would suddenly be so unconcerned once he's back in Christian's bedroom is just plain weird. It also displays a bizarre lack of concern about Christian's (or anyone else's) safety. Which is even more strange since he's worried about Christian feeling guilty, but apparently not worried that Christian will get clubbed over the head from behind by Axel. But Christian called the police once Olli was at home. I think that "I want to go home" is quite a normal reaction when something like that happens and Olli was quite obstinate about it. So Christian was just being considerate when he did not push it then and there. Later the police got involved and it was the right thing to do. And at the end, I think Olli was putting on a brave face for Christian to cheer him up, even when he's not OK himself. He had to tell Christian it really wasn't his fault. It probably won't work immediately or at all, but it may have helped for a while.
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seven14
New Member
James Marsters-My Spike!
Posts: 177
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Post by seven14 on Aug 6, 2008 5:42:38 GMT -5
Some people have to internalize what has happened and if there are guilt feelings there, they have to deal with those as well...there is so much happening with both Olli and Christian..I think they reacted very much in keeping with their personalities. I feel Olli is once again trying to be protective...remember he was the one there...not only getting the beating, but hearing all the vile things Axel had to say about Christian and their being together.....Olli knows that he needs to tell Christian who did this to him, but, protectively, this is probably all he wants to say on the subject, so that Christian doesn't go out there acting rash and getting himself in more trouble out of revenge. Christian to me showed his love to Olli...by doing the opposite of his nature because of Olli...he held himself back, he didn't fly off in a rage knowing Olli would worry about him, he tried to lighten the mood feeling inside that because of his actions, Olli was hurt. When we're in love, don't we always think of the other person's welfare much more than our own? To me, it was all there today. I want to say again, how much I think Christian and Olli were reacting to this episode in their lives, very much in character. Olli is just the kind of person who always thinks about Christian's welfare before he thinks of his own. In this instance, I really feel it's because Olli knows Christian's unfortunate past with jail, and Christian's tendency to fly off the handle emotionally when he is upset. I really feel his actions are motivated by keeping Christian safe and out of trouble. Of course Olli may have some self-esteem issues, don't we all, but I feel his actions are more in line with wanting to protect Christian. Just think about the scene where Olli does overhear Christian speaking to Gregor...I mean, Olli should have been in bed....but he was so worried that he came back downstairs I feel to make sure Christian was there at home. Axel may be roaming free, but he isn't some homicidal maniac on the loose...his target was very specific...he wanted to beat Christian--he wanted to destroy this person who so embarrassed him in the ring, I mean, the man, brought a weapon to fight with..he already knew he wasn't going to win a fair fight...... and Don't forget, Christian and Gregor both told the Police what happened and who did the attack..so they know and Axel will at least be picked up and brought in for questioning, I'm sure. Even if Olli didn't want to tell the Dr. --he didn't really have[/i] to....Christian, saw his need to want to get away...he was very gentle with him...he joked --trying to make light of the situation--he tried to side with the Dr and have Olli stay--but he listened to Olli's insistance to wanting to leave and he abided--Christian is not a talker--he is one who shows his emotions better. Both Olli and Christian are being strong, loving and sweet for the other. I pronounce myself very satisfied and I am thankful for Nanna and Tihkon for putting out the subtitles so I could understand what was being said !! I think this was such a good episode and wonderfully acted by T & J .
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aldebaran
Full Member
Halunke, Ich liebe Dich so sehr!
Posts: 1,506
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Post by aldebaran on Aug 6, 2008 7:24:52 GMT -5
Hi, I didn't have time to join the forum yesterday, and I've seen that loads of comments have already been posted about the episode. I just want to say a few things: - I liked the episode, even though Christian's reaction really surprised me. This time that he was supposed to FREAK OUT he didn't... But he probably was too shocked to do that. - I can't blame Olli for wishing to go home immediately after being treated at the hospital, I'd have done the same. He just wanted to forget the whole thing asap, and be alone with his Mann. Chris trying to joke about Olli's injuries was sweet IMO. - I loved the final scene on the bed, Olli wanting to reassure Chris and saying that he loves him. Chris's "Ich dich auch" is a good progress, I reckon. And no more shoes on the bed, yay!!! ;D - Last, but not least: it's too bad that we couldn't see our beloved couple having fun together in the bath tub... Thanks Ivan, Nanna and Tihkon once again for your restless efforts!
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mgh48
Junior Member
Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on Aug 6, 2008 8:50:18 GMT -5
Well, this episode has really creeped me out. I'm guessing it was the attack and being helpless to do anything about it heh heh. I have the 'oldest sibling' disease where I feel it's my responsibility to take care of everyone else---even in a soap opera story LOL
;D
If only, if only I could've been magickally transported to NO LIMITS right when that bastard went for Olli...just for a few minutes! It's driving me crazy heh.
I must say, though, if I had been Christian, I would certainly have shown much more emotion than he did. I realize he was holding in his anger and trying to seem 'normal' for Olli: like, I'm not going to go to pieces while my guy is in serious injury---got to keep it together, I can hear him thinking. But for ME, I would've been fuming, overly concerned and extremely protective. I would've been in the examination room with him---and he wouldn't be alone unless he ordered me out of the room LOL.
But, hey, that's me. Chris is trying to keep it cool so he doesn't add any angst on top of injury to Olli. There is also the probability that Germans react differently in these kinds of situations---more stoically, perhaps? In private, maybe Chris will breakdown and show us more about how he's feeling about this---aka, another talking to a picture scene, or something similar.
Anyway, I loved this episode because it did, in fact, evoke emotion---which is the whole point, I guess. Thanks Ivan, Tihkon and Nanna, thanks so much!
Geoff
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Post by psionycx on Aug 6, 2008 13:45:50 GMT -5
Did Christian really say Olli's injuries look "Goth"?
I find that rather funny in a conversation between two German people. It would have been tempting to make the sarcastic retort: Yeah, a Visigoth specificially , right after the Arabs came...
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 6, 2008 13:48:18 GMT -5
He said "Grufti" which is the German expression for what would be goths in the US. Grufti stems from Gruft which is German for "tomb". So it essentially means people who hang out on cementaries/at grave sites.
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Post by psionycx on Aug 6, 2008 13:53:29 GMT -5
He said "Grufti" which is the German expression for what would be goths in the US. Grufti stems from Gruft which is German for "tomb". So it essentially means people who hang out on cementaries/at grave sites. Thanks. I had wondered. Obviously there is a historical meaning to the word "Goth" in Europe that is largely absent in America (mostly because Americans aren't good at history). So I thought it was an odd, and funny, choice of word. Your explanation makes sense.
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Post by GayTime on Aug 6, 2008 14:32:53 GMT -5
He said "Grufti" which is the German expression for what would be goths in the US. Grufti stems from Gruft which is German for "tomb". So it essentially means people who hang out on cementaries/at grave sites. Thanks. I had wondered. Obviously there is a historical meaning to the word "Goth" in Europe that is largely absent in America (mostly because Americans aren't good at history). So I thought it was an odd, and funny, choice of word. Your explanation makes sense. Just to make things even more complicated: In a figurative sense, Grufti is also used for old people, in the sense that they should become residents of a 'Gruft' (as in tomb) any day now...
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Post by psionycx on Aug 6, 2008 14:35:29 GMT -5
Just to make things even more complicated: In a figurative sense, Grufti is also used for old people, in the sense that they should become residents of a 'Gruft' (as in tomb) any day now... Well that's rather creepy then, given that Olli was injured. Although admittedly he was toddling around rather stiffly.
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Post by GayTime on Aug 6, 2008 14:36:43 GMT -5
Just to make things even more complicated: In a figurative sense, Grufti is also used for old people, in the sense that they should become residents of a 'Gruft' (as in tomb) any day now... Well that's rather creepy then, given that Olli was injured. Although admittedly he was toddling around rather stiffly. In Olli's case, does that necessarily have anything to do with his injuries? ;D ;D(*ducksforcover*)
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Post by psionycx on Aug 6, 2008 14:46:45 GMT -5
In Olli's case, does that necessarily have anything to do with his injuries? ;D ;D(*ducksforcover*) Well, he was fully-clothed and bed later on and showed no inclination to finally break that romantic fast they'd been on. "Not tonight honey, I have a headache...." It was almost Nuke-ish, or would be if we didn't have the solace of knowing they've already had sex in the past.
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Post by ivaniv on Aug 6, 2008 14:52:02 GMT -5
Just to make things even more complicated: In a figurative sense, Grufti is also used for old people, in the sense that they should become residents of a 'Gruft' (as in tomb) any day now... I believe the English term for this is a coffin dodger
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Post by tihkon2 on Aug 6, 2008 15:05:34 GMT -5
Ahh..but in this case I'm sure Olli really did have a headache. And face-ache. And rib-ache. And arm-ache...
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Post by brownsugar on Aug 6, 2008 15:35:35 GMT -5
As for Olli in the hospital, I have to give props to Jo here, but I think he played it really well. Maybe some of it lost for non German speakers, but I was really impressed how he conveyed Olli's shock with so little dialog to work with. [/quote]
Lola...I completely agree with you here. I thought the acting from Jo during this episode, especially the hospital scene was one of his finest VL performances. Even how Thore conveyed Christian's reaction to the situation was actually very well done. I base this from many years of experience in hospitals and actually dealing with victims of violence and trauma. I've treated victims of gay bashing, and when you see their loved ones, there isn't ranting and raving as you would expect, but restrained emotion, there is a quietness or resigned feeling of hopelessness.
The wanting to 'just go home' as Olli expressed was right on the mark. Nothing else matters to these patients except wanting to leave the hospital and be with their family. They want to go back to a sense of being 'normal' again. Almost wanting to go back in time as though nothing happened. It's all so terribly sad. So even though there are a lot of complaints about how Christian's lack of emotion at finding Olli beat up and his light hearted joking at the hospital, it's actually a common reaction. How Jo and Thore played there scenes in this episode is more in line with what I've see over the years.
I commend them both on superb performances yesterday, which sadly isn't getting the praise deserved since we are lost in looking at how we wanted Christian to react...weeping, wailing and throwing a tantrum... instead of how in character and very realistic Thore played that part. And Jo's performance was quite brilliant.
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Post by ivaniv on Aug 6, 2008 15:40:45 GMT -5
It's probably the last thing Christian would want to do, to upset Olli by being angry or crying...
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Post by synapticmisfire on Aug 6, 2008 15:45:29 GMT -5
I found the reactions pretty realistic. Olli has that victim thing going on where he doesn't want to admit that he got the shit beaten out of him and doesn't want to have to deal with it. Christian's incredibly guilty and making bad jokes and distancing himself because of it. It makes them both kinda stupid, yeah, but it doesn't mean that it's not a realistic reaction. And as someone commented over on AE, Christian has been in jail twice for violent crimes. He doesn't have the luxury of going all Dark Avenger on Axel. Besides which, I don't think it's in his nature; smacking Axel around the face if he had been there at the time, yeah, but tracking the guy down and beating him up, not so much. Especially not if Olli is trying to sweep the whole thing under the carpet. I can't help but feel that SPOILER: this is all going to blow up on them both, especially since we know Axel isn't charged. Waiting to report the crime, Olli not saying it himself, the police not even bothering to take evidence 'cause it's the next day and the place is already open etc., just seems like they're shooting themselves in the foot.
Oh, and to anyone who ever worries about Chrudith, surely today assuages your fears? I mean, she's in the bathroom with naked Christian and doesn't even try to sneak a peek? And he doesn't even react to her being there, just chats away to her about how much hot (and loud) sex he's going to have with Olli? They view each other in a completely non-sexual manner, and whatever about couples coming from unlikely places and starting as friends, there's just no building blocks here for a relationship.
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Post by Bonobochick on Aug 6, 2008 15:51:01 GMT -5
Well that's rather creepy then, given that Olli was injured. Although admittedly he was toddling around rather stiffly. In Olli's case, does that necessarily have anything to do with his injuries? ;D ;D(*ducksforcover*) Ha! I see you have been dipping in Sheepie's meow mix.
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Post by psionycx on Aug 6, 2008 15:56:22 GMT -5
Oh, and to anyone who ever worries about Chrudith, surely today assuages your fears? I mean, she's in the bathroom with naked Christian and doesn't even try to sneak a peek? And he doesn't even react to her being there, just chats away to her about how much hot (and loud) sex he's going to have with Olli? They view each other in a completely non-sexual manner, and whatever about couples coming from unlikely places and starting as friends, there's just no building blocks here for a relationship. It was rather cute the way Christian was lounging in the tub, smugly stating that he anticipates having noisy mansex shortly. You put a beer in that boy and next thing you know he's gloating about his sex life. Maybe he is straight.
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Post by aussie54 on Aug 6, 2008 16:06:35 GMT -5
I also think Jo's acting was very good in this episode, and I think the emotions he portrayed were very believable. I don't have a problem with Christian's reactions either. The main thing I was disappointed in was the lack of affection - a little shoulder rub or hug (and I wasn't expecting bonecrushing hugs here) ... just something to show how much he cares. The contrast where he was so publicly affectionate to Olli at the boxing fight and at NoLimits afterwards, in comparison to how he is when Olli may need it more, is disappointing. I realise Olli is the one who's all touchy/feely, but I'd love to see more of that from Christian too.
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Post by jsg03jd on Aug 6, 2008 16:54:22 GMT -5
I don't think histrionics would have worked better for Christian's reactions either. I think he's building up slowly and surely, and then he'll just explode in a rage.
You know, kinda like how he never freaks out.
The timing was just not right for Christian to freak out. He had to be stable for Olli's sake.
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mgh48
Junior Member
Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on Aug 6, 2008 23:23:46 GMT -5
brownsugar! Thanks so much for telling us this. I had no idea. I've never experienced this in my entire life. As I keep saying, I'm a rather big guy and basically can handle myself in most confrontations. No one, not even my fellow neanderthalisch high school students ever DARED to say anything to my face. They certainly never attacked me. So, I just tend to look at gay-bashing as a routine violent attack---which I would react to like any other.
Thanks for the insight. It makes this episode even more poignant to me, now.
Geoff
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eldanesh
Junior Member
insane in the membrane.
Posts: 251
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Post by eldanesh on Aug 6, 2008 23:49:36 GMT -5
In Olli's case, does that necessarily have anything to do with his injuries? ;D ;D(*ducksforcover*) Ha! I see you have been dipping in Sheepie's meow mix. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 7, 2008 0:56:01 GMT -5
Not to step too close, but isn't it rather easy to say how you would have acted in an attack and then say in the same breath that nobody ever even tried it?
I have seen some men react very weirdly towards it precisely because they never saw themselves as being that, a victim. (incidentally there was a great article in the German Die Zeit/The Times about a very fit guy who was gaybashed outside a gay club and who not only hit back but actually chased his attacker down while coordinating with the police via mobile and nabbed him this way. In his interview he talked about how even though he was the "hero" and "won" and never saw himself as the guy who would ever get bashed months later he still isn't over it, is seeking out therapy and still doesn't feel safe. )
And of course there is the women version where you get taught that yeah, things like jabbing him in the eye with your keys, kicking him in the nuts or using special pressure points is a nice idea, but if you can run it's always better to run. Just like they teach that if somebody is mugging you it's always smarter to hand over your purse because your purse or your "honor" is never worth getting injured. It's just false vanity that gives you nothing if you are bleeding to death from a stab wound and can't go home to your family. (which doesn't mean that one shouldn't know self defense, just that the best self defense is not having to use it at all; of course there are cases where you do need it, situations of rape come to mind [which of course deliberately ignores that even rape is much more likely to happen in the form or date rape or acquaintance rape])
Of course we are also Europeans who think that the best protection against guns is to not have a gun because that increases the chances that whoever robs your house won't have a gun either, partly because they are just rarer and harder to get and partly because if the robber can assume that the people he plans to rob won't have a gun either there is no point in bringing one himself. That doesn't mean that violent crime doesn't happen in Germany, but it's a difference as to whether it gets played up or down by the media (especially copmared to home crimes like the husband killing the wife) and whether people consider it the norm or the aberration.
(did I ever tell the story how in some cities it is considered customary that when you are pickpocketed the thief takes the money and the mobile phone and then puts your wallet/purse into mailboxes where they will be found by Lost&Found the next day? That way you get your documents back and don't have to get duplicates which means extra costs and extra annoyance and bureaucracy. As stupid as it sounds, it's in the best interest of the criminals to do things like this because that way the population is less annoyed and less likely to scream for bloody law and order)
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mgh48
Junior Member
Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on Aug 7, 2008 2:07:09 GMT -5
lola, you have so many points in your rebuttal. I'm not sure which one to respond to.
Let's say this: though I've never been gay-bashed, I have been attacked. By more than one person at the same time. It was a cowardly attack and when I saw 4 or 5 ranged against me, I prudently left the scene. heh.
It's easy to say how you'd want to react in a situation; not necessarily how you would. I suspect the latter would be very hard to admit, indeed.
But, truthfully, I've never been attacked like I saw in yesterday's episode---so I have no idea how I'd react AFTER the fact. But during it, oh yes, I can definitely tell how I would react.
Geoff
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