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Post by final81 on Aug 5, 2008 15:17:08 GMT -5
I'm not intending to start a fight, and this is a potentially touchy point. But I have to wonder how this was a heterosexual performance. Might we not make allowance enough for differences in situation and temper, as Jane Austen might say? Restenergy, Christain and Oliver are lovers, but Christian's, almost lackadaisical, behaviour towards Olli gave the impression that he (C) was nothing more than a good buddy. No intimacy at the hospital, nothing. After the big outing yesterday, I'd expected him to be a bit more physical with Olli, but there was no sign of it. It would have been a marvellous homosexual performance if there was just "an atom of physical contact". As for Ms. Austen's words, I dare to add: Most certainly, my dear, but not where my boyfriend's concerned. I expect him to behave predictably, irrepective of the situation. I think the reason why Christian is not touching Olli at the hospital or in his room because he didn't know if it going to hurt Olli by hugging him or any king physical contact will cause pain.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 5, 2008 15:18:47 GMT -5
I didn't find it that surprising. Yes Christian can freak out, but he can also be very unsure of himself. And today he went for unsure. Only the future will tell us for sure how it goes.
I do have to say though, the Judith scenes are starting to bug me. There's just too many of them. It reminds me too much of Coco with Christian/Nico. At this point it's obvious that Christian isn't interested in her (take the good luck charm scene where he doesn't even look at her properly because he is looking for Olli and of course he needs Olli to bring him victory while her charm isn't enough for that). But that's the thing, back when Coco was playing best friend Christian also was completely dedicated to Nico, paticular in his mind and there were many examples of him totally brushing past Coco because Nico was his priority.
I have always got the impression that the idea of hooking up with your friend was fundamentally attractive to Christian because he liked the thought of a low effort and low drama relationship. And imo he has never been that good at emotionally taking care of his partners.
I'd like him to grow up and learn how to really act in a proper grown up relationship, but this is a flaw I definitely see in him. He is better with friends because he can comfort them without too much responsibility resting on him and he doesn't have to take care of them as much. But once it turns into a relationship it all gets messed up.
(which is not to say that I think they will do Christian/Judith. For once, while I can picture him being drawn to it, if they ever did hook up? He would be miserable within 2 days. And an important difference between the Coco/Christian/Nico situation and now is that Coco was in love with Christian even while she was his friend and becoming his friend. Also, VL has been on occasion been capable of doing male/female friendship and not taking it further;)
Heh, it's amusing how different people can see such different things. For example, despite the amoung and degree of intimacy, today felt much more on spot to me than yesterday. There wasn't anything bad about the writing yesterday, but something about the performances just didn't work for me.
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Post by aussie54 on Aug 5, 2008 15:21:47 GMT -5
Restenergy, Christain and Oliver are lovers, but Christian's, almost lackadaisical, behaviour towards Olli gave the impression that he (C) was nothing more than a good buddy. No intimacy at the hospital, nothing. After the big outing yesterday, I'd expected him to be a bit more physical with Olli, but there was no sign of it. It would have been a marvellous homosexual performance if there was just "an atom of physical contact". As for Ms. Austen's words, I dare to add: Most certainly, my dear, but not where my boyfriend's concerned. I expect him to behave predictably, irrepective of the situation. I agree with this ... I watched the clip before reading your comments, and thought exactly the same thing. No hugging, no hand holding, nothing ... Olli could've almost been a stranger Christian had run into on the street. From Tihkon I agree ... they're very friendly lately. Overall, I'd have to say I was disappointed in Christian today. At the end Olli even has to reach up to share their kiss.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 5, 2008 15:24:02 GMT -5
I have to admit that that bugged me. Mostly because my brain immediately went "shouldn't that hurt?". And this thing where they sort of have their hands crossed while they kiss generally isn't my favorite kissing style. Just a personal preference.
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Post by shanuti on Aug 5, 2008 15:25:54 GMT -5
In Christian's defence, he feels as though it's his own actions (IE being physical with Olli in public) that caused the beating in the first place, so it might be intentional to convey his guilt. That's how I felt it, anyway.
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Post by tihkon2 on Aug 5, 2008 15:31:40 GMT -5
I really don't think they're going to try to hook up Chris and Judith either. Which makes the way their scenes are shot and played and aired, even more annoying to me. ;D
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Post by final81 on Aug 5, 2008 15:38:52 GMT -5
If they really want Christian/Judith together, it would of started during the time they pretended to be a couple. And with Christian's record, everyone who kiss him, he fell in love with but that didn't happen with Judith.
Oh yeah, Judith also have her own storyline.
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Post by danuta on Aug 5, 2008 15:42:09 GMT -5
I really need the translation but still… give Christian a break. As far as I know it is for very first time when Oliver really needs his help, usually Oliver is there for him, knows what to do and actually IMO is stronger than he is.
He took care of Oliver as best he knew. He feels guilty and afraid: he could loose Oliver.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 5, 2008 15:42:31 GMT -5
I really don't think they're going to try to hook up Chris and Judith either. Which makes the way their scenes are shot and played and aired, even more annoying to me. ;D If I were mean I would devil's advocate you and cite how much earlier they put in the hints for Ollian long before Olli fell for Christian, even longer before Christian officially started having feelings back and that they potentially laid the groundwork for C&C breaking up even before Olli had even come back. But I'm not that mean (though I have always said, I could live with a Roman/Deniz/Vanessa as long as it wasn't as badly written as Roman/Deniz/Vanessa; I wouldn't like it, but I could live with it; I might stop watching the show, but I wouldn't start hating the show. but imo that's the thing about VL, that if they want they can write a compelling break up if they want to, where you can truly understand why it happened rather than it being a whiplash kind of thing) But yeah, to get back on topic, I have always seen some traces of Christian's lack of emotionalism. Guess it is realistic (though not necessarily pleasant) that you sort of hope that love will cure him of that and it sort of doesn't. At least not completely and not from 0 to 100. Which doesn't mean that I'm 100% okay with how it was done. IMO the perfect way to do it (or to do it in the next episode) would be Christian talking to Gregor or Judith after this scene and as he talks about what happened slowly building up anger. I don't think that he would do it in front of Olli.
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sozment
Junior Member
Forget regret or life is yours to miss
Posts: 648
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Post by sozment on Aug 5, 2008 15:45:57 GMT -5
Maybe part of our "let down" is the fact he was so over emotional when he thought Olli was out having drinks with the village idiot but when he laying on the ground beaten to a pulp, he's like " what happened"...no frantic, no anger..or least I haven't seen that yet? Besides I want to see Thore do a throw down angsty highly emotional scene..not anger..we know he can do anger..I'm talking...crying..tears... torn apart. I want to see if he has it in him. I'm willing to bet he does.
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andru
New Member
Posts: 96
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Post by andru on Aug 5, 2008 15:49:27 GMT -5
Well, today's episode was ok to me, especially the last scene , but there were some things that annoyed me a bit. The first was Christian's reaction when he found Olli beaten by Axel. Shouldn't he be more shocked and angry??? He just asked Olli what has happened and that was it. But the scene that made me really mad was the one at the hospital. WHY didn't Olli just tell Leo what has happened??? And why didn't Christian, either??? They just acted as if Christian wasn't out yet. This reaction after yesterday's episode ? No, I expected a little more now. But otherwise we can't look into Christian and we don't know, if he is so calm as it looks like. To be honest, I don't think so. Maybe he just didn't want to bring Olli more down than he already was and tried to stay the strong one, even make some little jokes. But in fact he feels angry and is really worried about Olli.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 5, 2008 15:49:51 GMT -5
I want to see that too eventually, but IMO in this particular situation it would probably have felt overwrought if he had started crying.
To me Olli didn't want to tell for some unknown reason (shock maybe) and it would have been weird if Christian had just overruled him and told Leo anyway when Olli apparently didn't want to talk about it. And Christian did end up talking to the police.
(though I did find it interesting that he told Leo that it was some fan who was upset that he won, no mention of outing or the real culprit; he could just have well said it was a fan who was upset about the outing or that it was the other boxer who was upset about losing)
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Post by nanna on Aug 5, 2008 15:50:43 GMT -5
Overall, I'd have to say I was disappointed in Christian today. At the end Olli even has to reach up to share their kiss. While I sub the video, I watch it almost frame by frame and Christian was leaning down to kiss Olli and at the same time Olli was reaching up.
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Post by chrollifan on Aug 5, 2008 15:52:12 GMT -5
I would've expected a bit more emotion from Christian too, but actually it was quite good and interesting, that he didn't freaked out. I can get, that he blames himself. Only the hospital scene bugged me. Of course, Christian tried to cheer up Olli, but WTF When your boyfriend got beaten up and is in shock, you don't say something like that. C: Wie siehst du denn aus? O: Genau das will ich hören... C: Hey, es ist ja nicht Grufti-mäßig, aber es steht dir eigentlich ganz gut. I got almost heart attack. And how they left the scene. Christian walking before Olli. I would've wanted to see at least Christian's hand on Olli's shoulder (also when they talked with Leonhard).
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 5, 2008 15:54:25 GMT -5
I kinda liked the very lame joking attempt. Felt very helpless Christian to me.
This bugged me more. I would have preferred Christian taking Olli's hand. Or Olli storming off and Christian following.
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Post by final81 on Aug 5, 2008 15:56:53 GMT -5
I really don't think they're going to try to hook up Chris and Judith either. Which makes the way their scenes are shot and played and aired, even more annoying to me. ;D If I were mean I would devil's advocate you and cite how much earlier they put in the hints for Ollian long before Olli fell for Christian, even longer before Christian officially started having feelings back and that they potentially laid the groundwork for C&C breaking up even before Olli had even come back. Well the biggest hint of Christian/Judith getting together is Judith have no storyline except for being in Christian/Olli like Olli with Christian/Coco and Coco with Christian/Nico.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 5, 2008 16:01:31 GMT -5
I don't think that any of us will ever feel properly secure until Judith has a proper "VL soulmate" (aka Sebastian and Lydia or Cecile and Leo where you KNOW it doesn't matter what kind of scenes she has with anybody or how often she has broken up with her guy, you just know there is no way that either her character nor the show will ever back off the soulmate relationship and no way that anything else she starts will ever be serious).
;D
Even though Constantin is around, unless the writers write it like a larger story or a true soulmate story it isn't really an obstacle to Judith hooking up with somebody else.
That said, SPOILer my speculation has always been that the point of Judith/Constantin is to drive Constantin insane, to Ansgarize-him as he grows bitter when he loses Judith to yet another Brandner boy, first Fabian, than David; and tadaaa, the next generation of Lahnstein/Brandner feuding is born. This is of course just my wild theory where they will get rid of Carla, Ansgar and Leonard eventually as they run out of storylines and replace them with Rebecca, Constantin and Sebastian.
Sebastian is the lucky son (Leo) who has messed up (Leo slept with his father's wife, Sebastian slept with his girlfriend's mother) who has the big soulmate relationship. Constantin will be unlucky in love and will always be bitter because he is the unloved son of his father. And Rebecca will be the girl except boring rather than a cool lesbian like Carla.
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sozment
Junior Member
Forget regret or life is yours to miss
Posts: 648
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Post by sozment on Aug 5, 2008 16:08:42 GMT -5
I want to see that too eventually, but IMO in this particular situation it would probably have felt overwrought if he had started crying. Oh yeah, definitely agree. Crying now would have been too much. Angry, upset is more what I was looking for today. If Olli had been more seriously hurt, then I would look for tears. I'm waiting for those scenes..I want to see the boys act..I mean REALLY act. I'm a drama/ theatre girl...I love this stuff.
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Post by aussie54 on Aug 5, 2008 16:13:32 GMT -5
Overall, I'd have to say I was disappointed in Christian today. At the end Olli even has to reach up to share their kiss. While I sub the video, I watch it almost frame by frame and Christian was leaning down to kiss Olli and at the same time Olli was reaching up. Yep, I could see that, but I think Christian should've made more of an effort to lean down more quickly, to save Olli having to reach up. I don't know ... it seemed to me Christian was even going to leave without kissing Olli at all at one stage there ... perhaps he was feeling guilty, or overwrought, whatever, but a little more TLC would've gone down better with me.
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Post by ivaniv on Aug 5, 2008 16:19:46 GMT -5
I think some people are too hard on Christian and expect from their couch a perfect reaction from him, but he just does not know what to do, how to cope and above all there's guilt that that was all his fault. I am sure we'll see him in better form later.
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Post by summerinthecity on Aug 5, 2008 16:27:32 GMT -5
I really don't think they're going to try to hook up Chris and Judith either. Which makes the way their scenes are shot and played and aired, even more annoying to me. ;D If I were mean I would devil's advocate you and cite how much earlier they put in the hints for Ollian long before Olli fell for Christian, even longer before Christian officially started having feelings back and that they potentially laid the groundwork for C&C breaking up even before Olli had even come back. But I'm not that mean . If I were mean (which I actually am ;D) I would say that if anything, it could be Christian/Olivia (given her: I would never have done that to you (facing Oli, talking about going through with her hideous attempt at blackmail) and neither to him (meaning Christian) - there was something to her voice that made me wonder ...). But then they would never last even a week as a couple, and Olivia is soo not the woman Christian would fancy ... . All in all I'd think up to now we haven't seen any real signs of doom as far as their relationship is concerned. The scene at the hospital was a bit strange - with Christian being really awkward as how to behave towards Oli - maybe he is like that when he is on a guilt trip So insecure - as he won't have thought that Leo would want to beat Oli up once he knew of their love maybe he was unsure of how Oli would react to him. Christian tends to mirror what he thinks of himself into others - like when he thought Gregor (and his dead father!) might be ashamed of him because he was gay and because the boxing didn't go too well at that time and it was so obvious that it was Christian (and most likely Christian alone) who thought so.
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Post by chrollifan on Aug 5, 2008 16:29:48 GMT -5
I love your theory Lola, but it would be way over the top, although I haven't watched VL so long, to say it's impossible. Viewers probably wouldn't buy it, because Constantin has generally been very goodhearted and honest guy in this hypocritical Lahnstein palace. I remember, that Constantin already had this-kinda internal fight in kidney storyline (to let he's evil father Adrian die or not) and he came out as a good person. I thought a bit, why Christian is so emotionless, and suggested, that maybe SPOILER: writers spare he's total breakdown for further hospital scenes, which are coming up. It wouldn't be interesting to watch in September, if he had opened himself totally already now. But at the same time they (writers) were to stingy IMO
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Post by Torrid German Love on Aug 5, 2008 16:38:29 GMT -5
I think some people are too hard on Christian and expect from their couch a perfect reaction from him, but he just does not know what to do, how to cope and above all there's guilt that that was all his fault. I am sure we'll see him in better form later. Perhaps you're right, Ivan. People tend to react in strange ways when confronted with extreme situations. Maybe this is C's way of reacting. I don't know. I wish EvilGeniusLady were here now. Having read what others have written, I'd also love to know what her views are.
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Post by tihkon2 on Aug 5, 2008 16:43:30 GMT -5
chrollifan
I mentioned the exact same thing to Nanna a little while ago. re: your spoiler
;D
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Aug 5, 2008 16:54:08 GMT -5
Restenergy, Christain and Oliver are lovers, but Christian's, almost lackadaisical, behaviour towards Olli gave the impression that he (C) was nothing more than a good buddy. No intimacy at the hospital, nothing. After the big outing yesterday, I'd expected him to be a bit more physical with Olli, but there was no sign of it. It would have been a marvellous homosexual performance if there was just "an atom of physical contact". As for Ms. Austen's words, I dare to add: Most certainly, my dear, but not where my boyfriend's concerned. I expect him to behave predictably, irrepective of the situation. Not everyone behaves the same way in hospitals. Some show affection there and others do not, sometimes quite independently of how they might behave in more relaxed or normal situations in every day life. In my observation, there are a great many people who don't really know how to behave in hospitals. For some, hospitals feel more rigid and formal, one might even say clinical, if you will, and so behavior becomes more controlled and staid, and sometimes more uncertain. It sometimes just doesn't feel the place, at least to some, for behavior that's more natural in less formal, more relaxed settings. Sometimes people don't want to get in the way of care. Sometimes people put up defenses against uncertainties or emotions. And so it doesn't necessarily look to me as if Christian is behaving like some heterosexual guy brought a friend to the hospital. It seems to be in the range of behavior that even the most devoted can display in that situation. Besides, perhaps Olli asked not to have a fuss made. Maybe Christian senses that Olli doesn't want such displays just then. He didn't seem to be really looking for much affection in those hospital scenes. And then, if Christian is feeling a bit guilty for putting Olli in danger.... Even with the displays and declarations that Christian made in the boxing ring, he strikes me as the kind of fellow who usually doesn't put his inner emotional life on display for the whole world on a regular basis. I'll go back to my joke about the Norweigian-American farmer who loved his wife so much that he almost told her so. Christian is, I think, a bit like that farmer, at least in some ways. That he so wants to proclaim his love publicly, like he did in Friday and Monday's episodes, I think is a testament to how deeply he feels for Olli. But that doesn't mean that he will wear his love and affection on this sleeve at all times and in all places. From what I saw watching the video, and from what has been described of the episode so far, I'm far more curious about not sharing who it was who attacked Olli than I am about Christian's behavior toward Olli at the hospital, or even when finding Olli on the floor of No Limits. Maybe my perspective will change when I get a chance to understand the dialog. And maybe it's my own perspective and predilections, but I didn't see Christian's behavior at the hospital as odd, out of character, or something that seemed to forget that there is a relationship between Christian and Olli. On the other hand, I can easily see where one might wish for something more than we saw. Those scenes were not perfect, and they could have been done differently. And maybe doing them differently would have satisfied more of us. But all I can do is offer my own perspective.
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