General Discussion - The Young & The Restless

[pepe1958]

While I'm certainly looking forward to this development and I think that Y&R is generally a very superior soap, I do think that they've done a poor job of really integrating Rafe into the fabric of Genoa City's social set: as I stated elsewhere, he was missing for an entire month, when he could've been at Lily & Cane's wedding, could've provided a sounding board for Billy's troubles with Chloe, and could've been more pro-active about what's happened with his Aunt Estella.

After all, based on what we've seen on-screen, only 2 people know that Rafe is gay: Colleen (who's also been seen only once in the past month) and J.T. So how does Adam know that Rafe is gay? I hope they establish this somehow before the seduction takes place.

Again, I hate criticizing what I think is the best soap on the air, but it is a justified criticism; I'm looking forward to the Rafe/Adam event, but they've failed to properly set it up, and I also think OLTL has managed to steal their thunder with a strongly written and acted set-up for the Fish/Kyle romance.

[davedoty]

I don't see any reason to suppose that the people we've seen him come out to are the only people he's told. He was pretty comfortable and casual about coming out, so he's clearly done it before. Just not to anyone who would have told Colleen or JT. He's had plenty of conversations with Adam, and I don't have any difficulty believing it came up at some point.

I think we're just used to series that keep a scorecard of "who knows" and "who doesn't." With Rafe, I don't think that matters. The coming out scene was mostly for the viewers benefit, I think, rather than the start of a coming out storyline.

One thing I find interesting that I haven't seen anyone mention yet is how much the story seems designed to make us root for Adam. Most of the major cliffhangers of late seem to be of the "Oh, no! Will he be exposed?" variety. Almost being caught off the grounds, all the blood on the stairs, the computer mishap, almost being caught with the botox box.... Normally, you'd expect the terrible thing they threaten to be the villain getting away with it; instead, we get the villain constantly about to fail, and breathe a sigh of relief when he can continue to do terrible things to Ashley.

[tihkon2]

I agree, that is interesting davedoty.

I also agree they should have shown Rafe at least once or twice around Genoa City before this past week. But, Rafe is just an accessory in Adam's story for now, so I can see how they didn't really feel he needed to be developed much more.

[harmonium]

Hey guys, I'm new to this storyline. Anyway, I need to ask a few questions in order to help me get into the storyline. Any help will be appreciated!

From what I have read, Adam will be sleeping with Rafe. But if I'm not wrong, Adam has been with girls all the while, hasn't he? So is Rafe the first guy he will be with? So is this current storyline going to make Adam gay? And are there going to be more gay characters coming up? I'm getting a little confused because, I'm currently catching OLTL and EE. All brand new stuff to me, so I need to get into the background of these characters to get into the storylines.

And what a coincidence that OLTL and Y&R are involving one gay character that is a "bad" guy.

[justinate]

harmonium, to our knowledge Adam has only been with women in the past (currently, Heather). Spoilers seem to indicate he is neither gay nor bisexual, but seducing Rafe to distract him from learning the truth (Adam is framing Rafe's aunt Estella for the gaslighting of Adam's stepmother Ashley).

There have also been indications that more gays are on their way to Genoa City. Speculation is rife with either Philip Chancellor III or his son, Philip IV. Philip IV has tested opposite women, and Philip III is played by an out gay actor, who made some comments which hinted (to me, at least) that he might be having a gay s/l. IMO, Philip III being gay would be a plausible reason why he faked his death, abandoning his wife and baby son.

[harmonium]

justinate: Thanks for the information. So basically, if according to spoilers, this is just a start of more things to come for Rafe? So Adam may not turn out to be Rafe's love interest? Hmmm. Interesting.

And another question, this Phillips IV (how lazy can people be with naming their sons. Hahaha), he has not been seen in the show since his teenage years rite? So he is brought back as an adult who may be gay? According to wikipedia, he is last heard to be serving in the army. It will be interesting to see the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" storyline. A gay soldier in soap, that will be a first rite?

[davedoty]

I don't really get the view that Rafe will have A love interest. (Lots of people have that view, and I don't mean to single you out.) True, there are characters on soaps who are permanently tied together, no matter what comes between them (Lilly and Holden on ATWT seem to be one of those.) But there are also plenty of characters who don't have A single love interest. They have a storyline that goes on for as long as it goes on. So, it might be fairer to say that one character may be romantically linked with Rafe for a while, but there may be someone else later.

I always take everything back to Melrose Place. Billy and Alison always wound up back together, no matter what. (Well, not at the very end, but there was always a sense that they would be back together, even though they cheated us at the end.) Characters like Amanda and Jake, OTOH, had a series of love interests. Some would last a brief time, others much longer, but I don't think you can really say that either had A love interest who was their permanent soulmate. I think they tried to do that with Amanda and Peter towards the end, but I really think that was more of a function of them being the only viable pairing left from the Golden Age of Melrose.

We've already got eternal soulmates in Nuke. I wouldn't mind a gay character who can go through some of the same partner-switching contortions the straight characters go through.

[harmonium]

davedoty: I don't know about the rest, but when I mean love interest, I mean someone who will be linked to the gay character (in this case, Rafe) romantically. Of course, I wouldn't mind if the gay character has several love interests during his stay in the show (that will be nice, so there will be more gay characters in the show). But the chances of a gay character getting involved in multiple partners during his stay in the show (esp. soap operas) is pretty low given how general public is still not keen on gay characters having love interests. I guess if 2 gay lovers in the show have the perfect chemistry, I don't see why there is a reason for not having them being tied down.

[jjose712]

Well the head writer of Y&R said that there will be more gays, but i think it's different in terms of pairing of straights and gays on soaps.
It's a lot easier for a straight character have a lot of succesive couples than for a gay character, because there are a lot of important straight characters to match anyone.
I have the feeling that Rafe will be coupled lately, when he achieved a supporting status.
To make a gay character have succesive couples, the character must be very well developed, because if it's not the case will have another Matt Fielding (citing Melrose place too), and not give him a serious relationship with character who will be more than the boyfriend of the gay character can mean that they will fear to go that path, and i don't have that sense from the interview of the head writer, she seems determined to invest in him

[pepe1958]

It also depends on the actors. If one of them decides not to renew his contract, what happens then? Now, on ATWT, if Van Hansis decided not to stay with the show, I suspect Jake Silbermann would be dropped from the show, as Noah would no longer have any reason to be there--Luke and Noah could ride off into the sunset together; conversely, if Silbermann decided to leave, Hansis could stay on, since Luke is a core character--Noah could leave town or die, leaving Luke to find another man to mend his broken heart.

[valso]

What I find really appealing about Y&R (and OLTL) is that finally a gay storyline isn't told in a politically correct way or in an educational way and we're finally able to see gay characters manipulative like Adam (or troublemaker like Kyle) and not always the good boy next door kind of guy.
I'm curious to know for how long Rafe will be clueless about Adam true intentions, it's gonna be really interesting.

[carld2]

Jun 20, 2009 9:17:46 GMT -5 valso said:

What I find really appealing about Y&R (and OLTL) is that finally a gay storyline isn't told in a politically correct way or in an educational way and we're finally able to see gay characters manipulative like Adam (or troublemaker like Kyle) and not always the good boy next door kind of guy.
I'm curious to know for how long Rafe will be clueless about Adam true intentions, it's gonna be really interesting.

Adam isn't gay. I don't even know if they're going to say he's bisexual. He may be a straight man who beds a gay man because he needs to keep him from learning secrets. So far the story doesn't involve homosexuality in a way which goes beyond shock value, ie, the audience is probably supposed to be stunned when Adam makes a move on Rafe. I think this may also be why we have seen so little of Rafe, his feelings, his thoughts, because the story may not be about him, it's about the jolt viewers are supposed to get at what Adam will do.

OLTL told a story a few years ago about a closeted gay man who killed several people so no one would find out he was having an affair with a college student. So it's not new for daytime, although that was more about being gay, while this isn't. Both stories seemed designed to get attention.

[carld2]

Jun 20, 2009 0:04:32 GMT -5 davedoty said:

One thing I find interesting that I haven't seen anyone mention yet is how much the story seems designed to make us root for Adam. Most of the major cliffhangers of late seem to be of the "Oh, no! Will he be exposed?" variety. Almost being caught off the grounds, all the blood on the stairs, the computer mishap, almost being caught with the botox box.... Normally, you'd expect the terrible thing they threaten to be the villain getting away with it; instead, we get the villain constantly about to fail, and breathe a sigh of relief when he can continue to do terrible things to Ashley.

I think this was true earlier in the story, but now that he's letting Ashley be examined by a doctor whom he knows sexually abuses women under his care, I've seen less fans rooting for him. I think that's a line many fans, especially female fans, may not want to cross. I think they've wanted to make Adam dark all along but some of the earlier parts of the story were easier to dismiss as camp. Once molestation of women who are being treated by their OBGYN comes into play, opinions start to shift.

Do you think Y&R would ever have Rafe and Billy get involved?

[pepe1958]

Do you think Y&R would ever have Rafe and Billy get involved?

If that were to happen, I think televisions around the nation would melt from the incandescent heat of those two beautiful men together!

[Bonobochick]

I think this was true earlier in the story, but now that he's letting Ashley be examined by a doctor whom he knows sexually abuses women under his care, I've seen less fans rooting for him. I think that's a line many fans, especially female fans, may not want to cross. I think they've wanted to make Adam dark all along but some of the earlier parts of the story were easier to dismiss as camp. Once molestation of women who are being treated by their OBGYN comes into play, opinions start to shift.

Well that and letting Ashley still think she's pregnant even though he caused her to lose the baby. That pretty much killed my enjoyment of the storyline. Now it seems more misogynistic than dark to me. I only half-ass watch it now cause I am just so turned off after the miscarriage and nasty doctor.

[davedoty]

I can't help but wonder if that tacked-on, insincere "I'm so sorry, Ashley" bit was designed to try to counteract just how horrible what he did in that particular episode was. It didn't work for me, mostly because, while I wouldn't expect him to confess and turn himself in, he could at least... you know, STOP if he felt so bad. I liked him fine as a complete mustache-twirler. As a self-deluding idiot convincing himself that he's not really a bad person because he "feels" for Ashley, he's just kind of... pathetic.

One reason MM may be perfect for the role is that on Veronica Mars, he played a repulsively unlikeable character (just watch that scene from the pilot when he literally mocked the lead character for trying to report her rape!) but made him a fan-favorite character by the second season despite that. So he's got plenty of experience redeeming repulsive characters based purely on his personal charisma.

[jjose712]

Jun 20, 2009 8:56:09 GMT -5 pepe1958 said:

It also depends on the actors. If one of them decides not to renew his contract, what happens then? Now, on ATWT, if Van Hansis decided not to stay with the show, I suspect Jake Silbermann would be dropped from the show, as Noah would no longer have any reason to be there--Luke and Noah could ride off into the sunset together; conversely, if Silbermann decided to leave, Hansis could stay on, since Luke is a core character--Noah could leave town or die, leaving Luke to find another man to mend his broken heart.

I'm not so sure, i always think that if Jake decides to leave, they give Luke another boyfriend, and if Van decides to go, they'll find another actor to play Luke as they did with Lily, because Luke as lily is a core character, even Van's departure could be more difficult to solve than Jake's.
I think the main difference between gay situation in ATWT and Y&R and OLTL, it's the status of the characters.
Luke was a main character, and they know he was popular, if Van hadn't good chemistry with Jake they will write off Jake without a second thought and find another boyfriend for Luke, because Luke was a popular character.
OLTL characters are minor characters, but both are at the same level, so there's no dependence of each other. And Y&R has the most difficult situation in the question to introduce a gay character, Rafe is a barely there character, but he will be introduced in the main storyline, so it's a hit or miss situation. If the audience will have a good response to Rafe, he will grow as character and gain importance, if not, he probably dissapear

[pepe1958]

But if the characters become popular enough--regardless of whether they're directly attached to a core family--they could remain around for quite awhile. There's a poll over at the OLTL SoapCentral board asking which upcoming storyline viewers are most eager to see and Fish/Kyle are winning. Given how strong OLTL is right now, they could do this storyline correctly, and Kish will become one of their supercouples.

[harmonium]

OK, after reading the thread right from the first page and with the help of the youtube clips done by anthonydlangford and all the background info from you helpful lot, I'm some sort kinda familarise with the storyline. God, this is why I "hate" soaps due to their complicated relationships. So much to learn from scratch. Hehehe.

Anyway, now that I have read how "evil" Adam is, I wouldn't really want Rafe to end up with him. But I will be very curious how they are going to draft the story between Rafe and Adam. Adam must be desperate enough to actually sleep with Rafe in order protect himself. And this kinda make me wonder what will become of Adam. I mean with the inference from the spoilers, it is almost sure that they won't end up a couple. So I guess Rafe's love story will most probably be a separate storyline (after he is done with Adam).

Just a crazy thought, since both Phillip 3 and 4 (gosh, it's like naming clones or something), do you think the writers will take a bigger risk to involve both of them with Rafe. Hahaha. Imagine that. Father and son fell in love with the same guy. That will cause a controversy on daytime tele. Hehehe. And I can't wait to find out who will be the new gay characters. Rafe's friend or ex-lover? Phillip 3 or 4's past lovers? Phillip 4's gay army buddy (that will remind me of the Grey's Anatomy's episode).

And also, I think I have so much to catch up given I have EastEnders and One Life To Live to follow. Hehehe. Insane.

[Bonobochick]

Hopefully the Rafe storyline will start soon so the comparisons to ATWT and OLTL will die. IMO, each soap should be taken on it's own merit and not compared, especially when the 3 storylines compared are completely different.

Also, it'll mean things will actually stick to being about the show the thread is for.

[jjose712]

Jun 21, 2009 13:05:39 GMT -5 pepe1958 said:

But if the characters become popular enough--regardless of whether they're directly attached to a core family--they could remain around for quite awhile. There's a poll over at the OLTL SoapCentral board asking which upcoming storyline viewers are most eager to see and Fish/Kyle are winning. Given how strong OLTL is right now, they could do this storyline correctly, and Kish will become one of their supercouples.

I think that don't being a member of a core family only makes a difference that it's easy to being written off in the case of the character doesn't work. But if the character become popular is not a problem at all.
For example Rafe only has a relative in the show, but if the character is a success that's not a problem at all

[floatilla]

Just wondering...when does the new Adam start airing?

[jjose712]

I read somewhere that the last episode with Chris engen will be the 24th

[Bonobochick]

Soap Opera Digest has a poll on how folks feel about same sex couples on soaps: soapoperadigest.com/snap-poll/

Voting is currently open!


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[floatilla]

Watching todays episode and am thinking as to how much of a waste CE is to his talent. He embodies bad so well.....

The Cane s/l is also getting really interesting...