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Post by Bonobochick on Jul 9, 2009 18:24:07 GMT -5
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Post by davedoty on Jul 9, 2009 18:38:51 GMT -5
I couldn't disagree more. The P4 scenario that poster suggests sounds like the most tired, PSA-driven storyline I could imagine. She's pretty clearly still coming from the position that gay characters need to have "a message." She even starts off by saying "If this is the type of story that the writers think will bring some type of acceptance, they're way off-base." I don't think the writers are doing this story to "bring acceptance." If there's a message to it at all, it's a meta-message that gay stories don't NEED to carry a message. It's been raised again and again by gay fans of the storyline, that we love seeing gay characters and stories that can be as screwed up as anyone else.
I don't want a story that lectures us on how DADT is bad. I want a whacked-out, off-the-wall soap story. And I've finally gotten one.
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Post by tihkon2 on Jul 9, 2009 19:41:19 GMT -5
Thanks for posting the clips B'Chick!  More campy fun. Nikki was gossiping like a fishwife over the back fence to her neighbor! And Victoria was all scandalized. Too funny. And the convo with Heather. Oh...Nikki......  ;D re: The TWOP post... No offense meant, but I agree with DaveDoty, and didn't like that post at all. I see that argument, and I disagree with it. I like the fact that this storyline isn't a "message" storyline or an "example" storyline. It's as fucked up as all the other storylines on the show. And I reeeeaaaaallllllyyyyy dislike the poster calling P3 "Old-Ass". I 'm so totally over everyone that isn't 30 or less referred to online as old.  Once again, no offense meant to you.  And.... OMG!!!!Kitty in a carrying case!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Bonobochick on Jul 9, 2009 19:52:15 GMT -5
No offense taken, that's why I mentioned the part I spoilered in the other post.  I am reserving judgement on that upcoming storyline until I see how things fit. I totally agree with the Lily/Black folks stuff on the show. That's a serious problem. As for Rafe and Adam... that is a tougher one for me cause I see the soapiness of it but yet, I am not entertained by the storyline (and this is from someone who watched Passions & OLTL's Todd with loyalty). It's not bad but... meh. I watch Adam & Rafe cause I watch the show but I am not invested in it. About the two storylines I am about on the show are the P3 reveal & fallout and MJ & her enemies list fallout. I think the problem for me is that I don't care about Rafe and I don't care about Adam so when I watch them do this game (it's still iffy if Rafe is conning Adam in return), I remain indifferent to them and their storyline. I want to care if only to be entertained yet... still no cake for me. Obviously mileage varies. |
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HQ75
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Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Posts: 4,201
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Post by HQ75 on Jul 9, 2009 23:14:23 GMT -5
I love the Adam and Rafe stuff. It's sick and twisted and has nothing to do with gay rights or homophobia or coming out (for a change)
Rafe just happens to be gay (and no one cares) and the fact that he's gay just means Adam can use "seduction" as one of his devious deflective tools. I'm sure if Rafe was female, he'd do the same thing.
I don't think Rafe is stupid enough to fall for this. We've had more than a glimpse or two of what Rafe thinks about Adam. I think because we don't get to hear Rafe's inner dialogue, folks assume he's just being played but I think that is as likely to be untrue as it is to be true. That's what's so great. We have NO IDEA where it's going.
I hated that Nikki didn't approach Rafe directly instead of running around and telling everyone what she saw. That was ridiculous.
Why would she tell Victor (who's the one trying to have Estella put in jail and who is a murderous, homophobic arse) that she thinks Adam and Rafe are in cahoots. Does Nikki really think Rafe would sell out his auntie to help Adam torture Ashley?
It would be in Estella's best interest for Nikki to approach RAFE first.
What Adam has done and is doing to Ashley makes me sick to my stomach and makes me hate him all the more. It's so disgusting but also so crazy soapy that it works. Hysterical pregnancy? Gaslighting?
Which is why I hope Adam get's his behind handed to him by a combination of Jack, Nikki and Adam blowing his SHITE out of the water.
I really like Yani Gellman's performance and Michael Muhneys' layered performance has made me engage with Adam in a way the previous actor didn't.
Crazy Maryjane and her KITTY IN A CARRIER!!! Love it!
I cannot stand Nina. I can barely stand scenes with her in them because I just want to smack her (which I guess is a testament to the talent of the actress). I feel similarly about Lily. I hate weak women on soaps. Grrrr!. I'll take crazy car crashing talking to stuffed kitties ladies over meek girls any day. Either smack the crap out of Cane and take him back and demand that he tell you ever last word of the truth (FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE LADY) or divorce him. Enough whining and hiding behind daddy.
I'm not a fan in general of TWOP so I'm not going to read that post (just too crazy making)
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Post by davedoty on Jul 9, 2009 23:17:25 GMT -5
The racial aspects of the post I can see much more. In that case, those are storylines that continue to play into current negative trends.
The only thing that gives me pause is the comments about Lily being "barely black." I can see what she was trying to say, but it gets into an entirely different, even uglier argument about how "black" various people are, or ought to be, or what makes someone "black." The same argument can be had for any group, but it gets into dangerous waters especially quickly with race.
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Post by davedoty on Jul 9, 2009 23:19:33 GMT -5
Oh, and for the record: I respect anyone's right to not like a storyline. I think sometimes we tie ourselves in knots trying to defend our dislike, when the fact is, just not enjoying it is more than enough valid reason to dislike it. I just take issue with anyone suggesting that it's in any way irresponsible to tell it. Certainly not an argument I would put in B-Chick's mouth. |
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Post by Bonobochick on Jul 9, 2009 23:22:19 GMT -5
That's when the enjoyment I originally had for Adam's machinations died... when Adam caused Ashley to miscarry then made the doctor lie to her that the baby was still alive. I am all for soapy but that was too sick for me to enjoy even in a dark way.
I don't care for Ashley and I think Victor is a narcissistic asshole but even I don't wish that miscarriage stuff on them. Ten to one that baby Sharon will have about the time Ashley is due will be stolen and given to Ashley in place of the miscarried fetus.
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HQ75
Full Member
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Posts: 4,201
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Post by HQ75 on Jul 9, 2009 23:35:16 GMT -5
On the Race thing. This is not about Lily or Olivia
I just ranted in the comments about a different soap character who's a teen, black and female because she's a gross, one-dimensional stereotype for absolutely no reason and the worse part is folks don't even seem to realize what a stereotype she is because folks just accept the "always sassy, street wise, sharp-tongued" thing as how black women really are. It turns my stomach.
Why couldn't she be bookish, shy and socially awkward and in love with scifi, pipi and anne of green gables (yes, that was me)
There are a few black female characters on soaps that I've discovered who I think are layered but I'm new to soaps so I don't know all the characters.
So far on Y&R I've only seen Olivia and Lily (are there others?)
I will say that a person's "blackness" is a combination of culture, upbringing, ethnicity and personal identification and no one other than that person get's to decide how they manifest said "blackness".
I think any time a black lady on a soap is allowed to have dreadlocs (like on All My Children) instead of the standard braids/perm/weave, it's a step forward for black women on tv.
I just think people can be so simplistic when thinking about ethnicity, race and sexual orientation and it's really offensive to reduce every black female or gay male character to a "symbol" instead of allowing them to be a complex person.
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Post by davedoty on Jul 10, 2009 0:59:01 GMT -5
It never really occurred to me the professional trouble Rafe could get in for this. It should have, given what's happening to Tea over on OLTL, but I guess I just never thought that far out. I must have missed the part that Nikki was worried for Rafe that Adam might be using her. It's nice that it was in there, since Nikki's been the one reading Adam like a book the whole time.
It's also been a good week for Nikki in terms of actually getting to take part in the stories, between this and getting custody of Summer. I've heard what an indispensable part of the show she is from various people because of her contract dispute, but all I've actually seen her do in my months with the show is wander on to be suspicious or supportive of various people, always the right people. She's basically been a Greek chorus, announcing to viewers who's right in a given storyline.
Of course, I doubt the Summer thing would go anywhere. For her to take custody in a practical way, Summer would have to wake up, at which point she will simply say what really happened, and it will all go away. Of course, that would require Summer to speak, so maybe not.
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Post by jjose712 on Jul 10, 2009 15:03:36 GMT -5
I don't know if i'm having problems to understand english now or i don't get into the story, because for me the last episodes don't work at all as intrigue but yes as comedy, i find it quite funny (even when i don't know if that's the intention).
My main problem now is that i don't get the characters, and i don't really care if something bad happens to Adam or even to Rafe
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Post by Duskysoda on Jul 10, 2009 15:08:03 GMT -5
I find the lack of a simple on-screen kiss between Rafe and Adam irritatingly predictable....I'm guessing Proctor and Gamble produces both Y and R and ATWT? HAHA
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Post by davedoty on Jul 10, 2009 15:32:15 GMT -5
I find the lack of a simple on-screen kiss between Rafe and Adam irritatingly predictable....I'm guessing Proctor and Gamble produces both Y and R and ATWT? HAHA In his interview on AfterElton, he said specifically "However, in the future, those blanks are going to be filled in by what you see on screen. " And yes, the blanks he's talking about are specifically on-screen physical intimacy between men (although I'm not sure if he's talking about Adam and Rafe, or Rafe and PC3.) Again, given the highly conservative nature of Y&R viewers, more so than even other daytime soaps, according to everyone I've heard weigh in on it, I think it's ENTIRELY reasonable to ease them in slowly. If the demands are 100% as we would like it to be first time out the gate or nothing, we're going to wind up with nothing. And if the gay/gay-friendly community turns on them at the first opportunity, they won't have much motivation to fight the fight. Give them a chance to bring their viewership up to speed. If we wind up with the extended kissing ban of ATWT, THEN lets start complaining. |
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Post by jjose712 on Jul 10, 2009 15:46:22 GMT -5
Well, but the kissing ban in ATWT was due to the pressure of conservative groups, i don't read anything about Y&R being pressured. And one of the good things about ATWT ended the kissing ban is that i thought that every new soap to introduce a gay character doesn't have the pressure they had. I thought that at least every new gay storyline will start in the point Nuke are today (wich is not to ask too much, because they are pretty chaste). Being a ground breaking storyline means that you have to face a lot more obstacles
I only hope OLTL don't do the same than Y&R
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Post by davedoty on Jul 10, 2009 15:49:38 GMT -5
I don't know if i'm having problems to understand english now or i don't get into the story, because for me the last episodes don't work at all as intrigue but yes as comedy, i find it quite funny (even when i don't know if that's the intention). This may just not be a story (or a show) for you. There's no law that says everyone has to like everything, or that you have to keep trying to make yourself like it. I certainly don't follow every show on this site. I find Y&R generally to be a very emotionally distant show. I'm not sure there's any characters I feel for, or am rooting for to be happy. I just find it interesting to watch the stories develop. Okay, I like Sharon. But I think that's the actress' performance more (MUCH more) than anything likable in the character. |
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Post by davedoty on Jul 10, 2009 15:58:24 GMT -5
Well, but the kissing ban in ATWT was due to the pressure of conservative groups, i don't read anything about Y&R being pressured. But as I say, I HAVE heard, from many sources, that Y&R has a much more conservative viewership than ATWT. They don't have the pressure ATWT had, they have their own, unique pressure. If my neighbor comes out before me, that doesn't magically mean I will have no trouble coming out. And because ATWT won over its audience, doesn't mean that Y&R has already won over its own, largely separate audience. Y&R has, what, 3 or 4 times as many viewers as ATWT? So that's several million very conservative viewers who HAVEN'T already been won over by ATWT, because they don't watch it. I don't think it's too much to ask that they be able to try to coax those viewers in gradually. |
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Post by davedoty on Jul 10, 2009 16:02:30 GMT -5
Ah, you know what, arguing endlessly about Torchwood has exhausted me. I give up.
Anyway, here's what I thought of today's episode:
Adam and MJ may seem like a perfect demonic duo, but I think Adam will find that her brand of crazy doesn't go with his "sane but evil thought out plan" any better than it did for Victor.
Does Heather have a mole I haven't noticed before, or has the actress had a poorly covered fever blister the last couple of days?
I'm not a big Phyllis fan, but credit where it's due: she's as hypercritical of herself as she is of everyone else.
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Post by jjose712 on Jul 10, 2009 16:17:17 GMT -5
Well, i can understand the reason they don't going that route, but i still thing is a little odd, it's like trying to gain new audience without taking the risks.
And even the no kiss it's not an obstacle to enjoy the show (or at least nor for me) i think the justification that some people give, that they reserve the kisses for a proper gay storyline, doesn't work for me. Soaps used to show adultery in all its splendor, so i find that kind of answer as anward as when Goutman said that Nuke mistletoe was an artistic choice
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Post by Bonobochick on Jul 10, 2009 18:51:45 GMT -5
That's pretty much where I am am on the issue though I actually understand Adam's motivation and related behavior. I just still don't care. And I think TPTB need to seriously flesh out Rafe cause right now I can tell you he's gay and he's a Latino lawyer. I couldn't tell you anything else about him cause the audience hasn't been told anything else.
I just want to be entertained and I found myself really enjoying all the other storylines on the show today but this one.
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Post by yahoorain on Jul 10, 2009 19:18:56 GMT -5
i can say honestly that the new Adam is growing on me.... he had a cute smirk at the end.... If he weren't such an @$$hole and a bit more open... I'd rather see those 2 get it on vs PCIII *runs and hides behind Rafe*
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HQ75
Full Member
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Posts: 4,201
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Post by HQ75 on Jul 10, 2009 20:17:26 GMT -5
We actually have no evidence that Y&R is under any pressure not to show men kissing. Come on folks. We don't have to be traumatized by the ATWT kissing ban forever. We can move on a bit.
What ATWT went through was a moment in time and it involved a specific response because it was the FIRST.
By this point, any groups that tried to get rid of NUKE have realized it didn't work and would be a wasted effort on other soaps.
There will always be people and groups who are offended or want to pressure TV shows but there are groups who feel the opposite and well and I think the one good thing about Nuke is that it has taught fans to fight for what the Want, not just for what they Don't Want.
From the interviews with all three of the male actors that I've read, the Adam Rafe thing is not supposed to be romantic or sexy and the viewers are not supposed to engage them as any kind of couple.
Not seeing them kiss or in bed (for me) just adds to the mystery and the intrigue. What did they do? How far have they gone? What did Nikki see, exactly?
I know folks want to see every gay character on TV as having something to do with each other but there is a way in which the CONSTANT comparison doesn't allow for any diversity of stories or characters.
Rafe is a character who has no conflicts about being gay. No angst, not painful coming out, no gay bashing, no rejection from friends and family, no weird self-hated. How fabulous!
Being gay is just like having brown hair for him. No need to talk about it, everybody who knows him, knows. Done and done. I LOVE THAT!
Also, the story is just beginning. The mental war between Adam and Rafe has just begun and it's all ramped up by Ashley wanting to see the doctor and Nikki's bee line to Victor.
I'm sorry, I just love the crazy. There is like 87 kinds of crazy and Adam is just so evil. But he doesn't even really realize how evil he is. It's so good.
I think the only way to watch this show is to FORGET WHAT YOU KNOW about NUKE and just embrace this story for what it is and go with it because according to the spoilers there's going to be So Much More Happening this Summer.
If folks are waiting for big "love" scenes, that's not going to happen with the Adam Rafe story.
We might even get a sex scene on screen (I think that's what Michael M was alluding to) but it definitely won't have anything to do with love or romance and it's not about the audience investing in them as "partners"
This story is dirty in the best possible way.
I get it if folks just don't like the show or Adam or Rafe or the storyline. That's cool.
But you can't spend all your time being mad at frozen yogurt because it's not ice cream...
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HQ75
Full Member
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Posts: 4,201
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Post by HQ75 on Jul 10, 2009 20:26:41 GMT -5
Also, if folks don't know what's REALLY going on with Ashley, I suggest you look it up because it will give you a lot more insight into Adam and what he's capable of.
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Post by missunderstood on Jul 10, 2009 20:38:55 GMT -5
Don't forget, his aunt works for TGVN!! So far we know three things about Rafe. Three things in about seven months. Never a good sign, IMO.
I read where Yani is guest starring on some episodes of "Lincoln Heights". May as well, if TPTB aren't going to use him on the show.
And I will be absolutely shocked if they show hot sex scenes between Adam/Rafe. Kissing maybe, but anything more is unlikely.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jul 10, 2009 21:07:34 GMT -5
Don't forget, his aunt works for TGVN!! So far we know three things about Rafe. Three things in about seven months. Never a good sign, IMO. I read where Yani is guest starring on some episodes of "Lincoln Heights". May as well, if TPTB aren't going to use him on the show. And I will be absolutely shocked if they show hot sex scenes between Adam/Rafe. Kissing maybe, but anything more is unlikely. Yes. Dear Aunt Estella. Oh!! And Rafe went to school with Billy. And he's helping with Noah's emancipation. None of these things really say anything about Rafe himself but they are other things he's doing. In other news, I miss Miguel!  He was a fixture as TGVNs butler of sorts for so long. Anyhoo, I watch Lincoln Heights... am a pretty big fan of the show actually... and so I look forward to his appearance. I bet he'll end up in Cassie/Charles orbit. |
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Post by jjose712 on Jul 11, 2009 7:20:02 GMT -5
Yes, they need to develop Rafe before give him a proper romance storyline. When this happens people need to have feelings (like Adam) for Rafe, if people don't care about him, they don't be interested in a future love storyline.
For ATWT that was easy because Luke was a popular character, but they could follow OLTL path, making people know more and more than Rafe while he is in other storylines.
By the way, it seems Y&R audience is not getting scared by the storyline in fact they are up in the ratings this week This was a good week for all the soaps with gay storylines
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;D
I am reserving judgement on that upcoming storyline until I see how things fit.
He was a fixture as TGVNs butler of sorts for so long.