Trish
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Post by Trish on Aug 13, 2011 18:28:11 GMT -5
Thanks, Joanna. I didn't think that "missing the intenstiy" was STILL considered to be a spoiler. Well actually, I think it's both a spoiler and not a spoiler all rolled into one! Nite, y'all! Night Joanna. I guess it's how you look at it. Some like me think that has been missing the intensity, so it's not a spoiler anymore. However, if you are one that thinks he's not "missing the intensity" yet, it is a spoiler. Oh who cares anymore.
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Post by andc39 on Aug 13, 2011 18:31:33 GMT -5
Yes, I do expect Christian to repeatedly talk and show that he's "missing the intensity" of Olli. I don't think that would be considered to be "ad naseum", especially by folks on this forum. We've got folks already complaining about how Chrolli "aren't being treated" like Helandi or Phico and when I suggest something that would bring some focus onto Christian, it's shot down? I just don't get it. I agree, Difficult Diva, It wouldn't bother me one bit to hear Christian, repeatedly say how much He misses the intensity He had with Olli...
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Trish
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Post by Trish on Aug 13, 2011 18:38:45 GMT -5
Well, we had Olli talking about how his been affected by Christian being gone and Christian seemed to be affected, IMO, by an actual person being with Olli, as opposed to just a picture. So with any luck the next step will be for Christian to finally stay how he's been affected. So maybe, we are getting there.
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Post by sonia38 on Aug 13, 2011 20:04:09 GMT -5
Was it my imagination that when Christian walked into Schneiders' he overheard Olli telling Charlie that he can't wait for her to meet Tobi and that's why Christian could not get his jacket off fast enough to get over where Olli and Charlie was so he could be nosey and find out what's going on with Olli.
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pru
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Post by pru on Aug 13, 2011 21:04:53 GMT -5
Oh, I'm pretty sure he heard most of Olli's convo concerning Tobi when he was speaking to Charlie. It also begs the question of why jockey girl wasn't wondering why Christian left her and ended up talking to the bar keeper who wouldn't serve her a drink at NL.
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Post by blaykee on Aug 13, 2011 21:12:13 GMT -5
Oh, I'm pretty sure he heard most of Olli's convo concerning Tobi when he was speaking to Charlie. It also begs the question of why jockey girl wasn't wondering why Christian left her and ended up talking to the bar keeper who wouldn't serve her a drink at NL. I get the idea that Theresa doesn't care at all. She cares about one thing, horses.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 13, 2011 21:19:00 GMT -5
Let's say that you are right and the audience expects Christian to declare that he misses the intensity he had with Olli. From a writing point of view if Christian shows his hand now how then do you handle his character for the months during which this SL will most probably drag on? Do you have him keep on repeating how much he misses the intensity he had with Olli until like the boxing bag scenes we are sick of it? And if so, how do you explain the fact that he continues sleeping with Theresa? You could start by having him portray the things people here have been claiming he feels. Blabla, he is in so much pain, he doesn't know any other way to deal with, he sees no way out. You could show him abtractly talking to let's say Hagen about loss and his father. You could show Theresa being manipulative of his feelings and his past when they are together. You could show him waking up from a nightmare, playing the break up scenes with Olli over and over again as he wakes up next to Theresa. You could show him spend the nights with the horses (like Dana used to) to drive home the point that he feels like he can't talk to anybody. You should show him lash out at Olli and then feel horrible about it in private. You could show him feel awkward and ashamed around Charlie and consider finding a different place to live. You could show scenes of their various friends trying to talk to him and him declining and them shaking their heads and telling him that this not talking will be a big problem for him. You could have him actually talk to people about how important the job and the race are too him because his job is the only thing he has left (the way Dana vocalized it). You could have him have those "misguided" scenes where he talks to somebody and talks about how maybe this is a good thing and that Olli is better off without him etc. This could go on for months and it could culminate in a big cathartic wall breakdown of some sort. Would it be frustrating maybe even boring at times? Would the Christian doubters still needle and find something to complain about? yes and yes. But at least Thore would have something to sink his teeth in, at least it would be a major storyline, at least we would have an idea what Christian is feeling. Again, the probably most definining storylines at the moment, Helena and Viktoria follow exactly this pattern. Characters doing the wrong thing obsessively, frustratingly and for a long time because they are so lost in their obesseion, their pain, their fear. The audience KNOW they are going the wrong way and they might still hate them or judge them for it, but at least there is no lack of vocalizing and the occasional really good drama scene that explains what the characters feel even if they are completely misguided. From an audience POV you KNOW that Viktoria is wrong to want to keep together her family by lying and in a way by endangering Kim. But you still see that this is truly what she thinks and fears. Just like you see all the stages of Helena's misguided way. You see her cry, you see her try to confess, you see her hating herself, you see her drugging herself, you see her trying to kill herself, you see her making changes in her life, you see her relieved and collected for a short time, you see people try to reach her and her rejecting it, you see her rebelling against Ludwig and then acquiescing again etc etc. If Chrolli/Christian got this storyline would it be the best story eva (like compared to say original Chrolli)? Or course not. The problems that the Vicky and Helena stories have would probably be there too (like repetitiveness or people saying "Boo fricking hoo, my sympathies are still with the real victims of their behavior"). But at least it would be a story and it would be story equality/same treatment. But if he doesn't actually have this storyline, if he doesn't actually do these scenes, why should he get credit for them as if he had? You have him say it repeatedly in order to follow the soap structure that important things that the audience should know have to be repeated so everybody is up to snuff. Would a fresh eyes audience really watch these scenes and come away thinking that Chrolli is some great big love? Isn't it more likely that they would come away thinking that Christian is some kind of twatty opportunist who is sleeping with the stable bitch and that is his main story/purpose? No. Soap viewing doesn't work that way. Soaps are all about repetition and setting up moods. Not about having jump scare type stuff that pops up out of the blue. But isn't that worse? The people who don't know that Christian is supposed to be missing the intensity will walk away from this with the impression that Christian doesn't feel anything at all/doesn't care. Why should the average audience member who isn't locked on to Chrolli history walk away from this wanting Chrolli when on one hand you have Christian being all glum and passive and not doing anything and on the other hand you at least have Olli lively in the flatshare?
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LadyArmand
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Post by LadyArmand on Aug 13, 2011 22:39:59 GMT -5
There is a difference between telling a compelling story and simply telling a story. When it comes to Chrolli they are an afterthought at this point. Christian only seems to think about Olli when other people bring him up, or when he actually sees him. Other than that if you were new to watching this soap you wouldn’t think in any way shape or form that this man had just spent the last three and a half years completely in love with Olli. The subtleties that some people see, embellish and are clinging to wildly to me come off as poor writing. And poor not just in the sense that it’s bad writing (because for the most part it is) but bad because it shows a lack of imagination which to me is far worse. It dismisses the audience and especially fans of the pairing.
We’re supposed to fill in not a couple of blanks, but all of them. We’re all supposed to be seeing the exact same thing and come away with the exact same impression. I’ve never seen a soap work this way. There is always some sort of conversation, so much so that you are wondering when someone is going to overhear, and aren’t at all surprised when they do. Repetition is part of how soaps tell the story and let the audience know where the story is heading. Repetition in soap especially about couples is the way they mythologize them. How many times did Luke and Noah break up? Or one of the other (usually Noah) revert in some way and push the other away? At no time during all of their break ups did you doubt that Noah loved Luke or that Luke loved Noah, or that one or the other of them were miserable without the other. And you thought this while calling both on their bullshit. You thought this even as you were frustrated by how they were acting. And you thought this up until the moment they eventually got back together. Why? Because the writing of the story was repetitive in letting the audience know exactly how they felt about each other even as they were pushing the other person away.
If one were new to watching VL, they would have a very hard time in seeing how much Christian is supposed to love Olli. Or that they’d spent the last three years relatively happy with one another. Why? Because the writing hasn’t allowed the audience to know what Christian is thinking. The writing hasn’t allowed Christian to act in anyway like he’s a man who is deeply in love with another man and misses the closeness they once shared. The writing has instead depicted Christian in a highly unlikeable manner. Most of the time he comes off like a cold blooded, arrogant jerk who needs to have the shit slapped out of him by someone so he’ll snap out of it. The writing is relying heavily on what people should know about the couple and how they feel, instead of doing what most writers are taught which is to write as if the audience knows nothing about your characters. By doing that you allow for new audience members to catch up and get emotionally invested in whether or not they get back together or not., It also allows for old loyal viewers to know one they haven’t been forgotten and will be rewarded in the further for their loyalty, and secondly it allows for the audience to see how thing could work themselves out. Decent writing (we’re not even going to talk about good or great writing) allows you to still see the characters that you know and love while exploring different sides of them. This incarnation of Christian is hardly recognizable. Which I find as sad as it is unfortunate.
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pru
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Post by pru on Aug 14, 2011 1:18:31 GMT -5
Say it, LadyArmand.
That is exactly how I feel everytime I see him onscreen these days. And you're so right that the casual viewer would have NO CLUE that Christian was gay let alone spent the last 31/2 years in a relationship in love with a man.
I don't see any sign of the love these days. All I see is him being a hypocrite in his actions and coming off as the biggest ass walking.
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Post by mariesun on Aug 14, 2011 1:26:06 GMT -5
If one were new to watching VL, they would have a very hard time in seeing how much Christian is supposed to love Olli. Or that they’d spent the last three years relatively happy with one another. Why? Because the writing hasn’t allowed the audience to know what Christian is thinking. The writing hasn’t allowed Christian to act in anyway like he’s a man who is deeply in love with another man and misses the closeness they once shared. The writing has instead depicted Christian in a highly unlikeable manner. Most of the time he comes off like a cold blooded, arrogant jerk who needs to have the shit slapped out of him by someone so he’ll snap out of it. This is absolutely true and I think, we all see that..and I think , even those who are still looking around for reasons and explanations for this behavior of Christian . This kind of writting for his character is incredibly frustrating to the Chrollifans . Other viewers who don't care about Chrolli so much just say bhheeeee, who cares about Chrolli, who cares about Christian , he is just a cold blooded, arrogant jerk ..and those viewers don't have any reason for looking for explanations of this behavior and what he really thinks or might think. My problem with Christian is that I still like this role and it's more and more frustrating to see him that way. Once he has one or two scenes with Olli and I can say, hooray he still feels something for Olli and he's not just a cold, arrogant jerk , then in the very next episode he returns to his ass..le- and careless- mood and my all Chrolli-feeling is immediately gone. That we Chrollifans are still hard and mostly in vain trying to read in his scenes and trying to look for something in his scenes that is "pro-Chrolli" , is because we still love so much this couple , but every other neutral viewer is absolutely not interested in such a manner of his . and then it's no wonder that there's so many comments like - Chrolli who? , a new man for Olli, Christian is more believable with women, etc. it's high time to allow Christian to show his feelings in more expressive way ... and I hope it's not too late
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 14, 2011 2:00:08 GMT -5
There is a poll on the main forum where people ask which couple people think deserves a happy ending and less than 30 percent want to see a Chrolli happy ending.
There are more people who think that Tristan and Marlene (who aren't even a couple), Sebastian and Tanja (where she is essentially a serial killer) and Victoria and Ansgar (where she lied to him for 18 years about the existance of their child and is causing him to commit almost incest with his own daughter) should have a happy ending (out of 60 people who voted).
[though admittedly it's likely that the fans on the official forum just have very odd tastes ;D]
But on a personal level:I probably don't see the state of Christian as quite as drastic (he usually just seems aloof/removed/indifferent as oppposed to "want to slap him"), but generally I just don't think that Christian should get credit for being sorry when he is not shown being sorry (like when he makes a bitchy remark at Olli) simply because "obviously he has to be sorry" even if we never see it.
(for the record, my impression of the official forum is that there used to be a lot more casual "I guess they are nice" and "Yeah, I guess they deserve to be happy" fans of Chrolli (from the people who are primarily fans of other characters and couples, not Chrolli primarily), but those have mostly gone to the indifferent/dislike side with this story)
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Post by phoenix-feather on Aug 14, 2011 2:33:07 GMT -5
thanx for letting us know LR this poll is fan-created right? does VL actually consider anything that's posted over their? just curious...
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 14, 2011 3:01:33 GMT -5
thanx for letting us know LR this poll is fan-created right? does VL actually consider anything that's posted over their? just curious... No, it's just one one of many cooky fan polls. It doesn't mean anything [60 people really isn't much] It was just an example.
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Post by phoenix-feather on Aug 14, 2011 3:58:38 GMT -5
ok. Danke
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Post by teachgirl on Aug 14, 2011 9:48:10 GMT -5
There is a difference between telling a compelling story and simply telling a story. When it comes to Chrolli they are an afterthought at this point. Christian only seems to think about Olli when other people bring him up, or when he actually sees him. Other than that if you were new to watching this soap you wouldn’t think in any way shape or form that this man had just spent the last three and a half years completely in love with Olli. The subtleties that some people see, embellish and are clinging to wildly to me come off as poor writing. And poor not just in the sense that it’s bad writing (because for the most part it is) but bad because it shows a lack of imagination which to me is far worse. It dismisses the audience and especially fans of the pairing. We’re supposed to fill in not a couple of blanks, but all of them. We’re all supposed to be seeing the exact same thing and come away with the exact same impression. I’ve never seen a soap work this way. There is always some sort of conversation, so much so that you are wondering when someone is going to overhear, and aren’t at all surprised when they do. Repetition is part of how soaps tell the story and let the audience know where the story is heading. Repetition in soap especially about couples is the way they mythologize them. How many times did Luke and Noah break up? Or one of the other (usually Noah) revert in some way and push the other away? At no time during all of their break ups did you doubt that Noah loved Luke or that Luke loved Noah, or that one or the other of them were miserable without the other. And you thought this while calling both on their bullshit. You thought this even as you were frustrated by how they were acting. And you thought this up until the moment they eventually got back together. Why? Because the writing of the story was repetitive in letting the audience know exactly how they felt about each other even as they were pushing the other person away. If one were new to watching VL, they would have a very hard time in seeing how much Christian is supposed to love Olli. Or that they’d spent the last three years relatively happy with one another. Why? Because the writing hasn’t allowed the audience to know what Christian is thinking. The writing hasn’t allowed Christian to act in anyway like he’s a man who is deeply in love with another man and misses the closeness they once shared. The writing has instead depicted Christian in a highly unlikeable manner. Most of the time he comes off like a cold blooded, arrogant jerk who needs to have the shit slapped out of him by someone so he’ll snap out of it. The writing is relying heavily on what people should know about the couple and how they feel, instead of doing what most writers are taught which is to write as if the audience knows nothing about your characters. By doing that you allow for new audience members to catch up and get emotionally invested in whether or not they get back together or not., It also allows for old loyal viewers to know one they haven’t been forgotten and will be rewarded in the further for their loyalty, and secondly it allows for the audience to see how thing could work themselves out. Decent writing (we’re not even going to talk about good or great writing) allows you to still see the characters that you know and love while exploring different sides of them. This incarnation of Christian is hardly recognizable. Which I find as sad as it is unfortunate. Lady Armand, this post is so on point. I have tried to express this point several times, but you do it so much more eloquently. Thanks!
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pru
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Post by pru on Aug 14, 2011 9:49:56 GMT -5
Cant' really say I'm surprised by the polls results.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Aug 14, 2011 10:03:47 GMT -5
If one were new to watching VL, they would have a very hard time in seeing how much Christian is supposed to love Olli. Or that they’d spent the last three years relatively happy with one another. Why? Because the writing hasn’t allowed the audience to know what Christian is thinking. The writing hasn’t allowed Christian to act in anyway like he’s a man who is deeply in love with another man and misses the closeness they once shared. The writing has instead depicted Christian in a highly unlikeable manner. Most of the time he comes off like a cold blooded, arrogant jerk who needs to have the shit slapped out of him by someone so he’ll snap out of it. This is absolutely true and I think, we all see that..and I think, even those who are still looking around for reasons and explanations for this behavior of Christian . This kind of writting for his character is incredibly frustrating to the Chrollifans . Other viewers who don't care about Chrolli so much just say bhheeeee, who cares about Chrolli, who cares about Christian , he is just a cold blooded, arrogant jerk ..and those viewers don't have any reason for looking for explanations of this behavior and what he really thinks or might think. My problem with Christian is that I still like this role and it's more and more frustrating to see him that way. Once he has one or two scenes with Olli and I can say, hooray he still feels something for Olli and he's not just a cold, arrogant jerk , then in the very next episode he returns to his ass..le- and careless- mood and my all Chrolli-feeling is immediately gone. That we Chrollifans are still hard and mostly in vain trying to read in his scenes and trying to look for something in his scenes that is "pro-Chrolli" , is because we still love so much this couple , but every other neutral viewer is absolutely not interested in such a manner of his . and then it's no wonder that there's so many comments like - Chrolli who? , a new man for Olli, Christian is more believable with women, etc. it's high time to allow Christian to show his feelings in more expressive way ... and I hope it's not too lateThat's why I feel that the show wants me to think that it must be "too hard and difficult" for Christian (right now) to supposedly express his "missing the intensity", because I'm not seeing anything of the sort. I know that the show, wants to keep us on pins and needles, but it shouldn't be like trying to find a needle in the haystack for me to try and see where Christian's coming from (right now) in regards to his pov. I (and others) shouldn't have to {SPOILER IN BEIGE} rely on a couple of responses from the VL Press office to appease that need.*Fixed LolaRuns
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 14, 2011 10:09:51 GMT -5
Doesn't that veer into spoiler territory? SPOILER because to me the press office answers did sound like they were refering to a specific future event (though potentially still quite a bit further away in the future). However, since we don't know what that is we can't really judge it yet. Maybe at some point not covered in the spoilers yet the actual story will be kickstarted. Or it might be another somewhat isolated event, but at least more noticable/overt.
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Post by blaykee on Aug 14, 2011 11:58:15 GMT -5
42 people, huh? out of how many Viewers? It also doesn't take into account the demographics of the sample. 1) were they chrolli fans before and have change their attitudes? 2) what are their views in general about homosexual couples? 3) how often do they watch the show? 4) do they watch the whole show? I'm sure you know how unreliable internet polls are. Given all that I'm not surprised either. You (lolaruns) yourself gave us a short course in soap writing and said that the writers weren't following the typical formula for showing the viewers that they should be rooting for a couple. If former chrolli fans don't want them back together, why should the general viewing audience? Still doesn't change what I want. And I can still have hope.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 14, 2011 12:09:09 GMT -5
These are just from the official board. Basically people who discuss there regularly (and as such people who watch the whole show). 60 people is also roughly what the polls from the official forum get so I think we can rule out that a ton of people signed on specifically just to answer this poll (that wasn't even very Chrolli specific).
Personally I think that it's unlikely that a high percentage of regular VL watchers hate gay couples considering that gay couples have been with the show for a long time.
It's my personal impression that the official forum used to be more Chrolli inclined (both from more German Chrolli fans posting there to general viewers genereally perceiving them as a nice couple) and that it lately has shifted to people being more likely to want Chrolli with other partners. Aka I think a year ago a lot more people would have agreed that Chrolli is a couple that deserves a happy ending and now a decent percentage of people don't see them like that anymore.
I do believe that internet polls are 1.) full of shit (for example I think general non internet audience is probably a lot more indifferent to everything than the type of viewers who would bother to sign up with a soap opera message board; I also think that internet fans are more likely to be willing to give odd couples a chance [like Ansgar/Viktoria or Tanja/Sebastian]) and 2.) are all ignored by the writers anyway (especially those small polls, but even the larger polls on the main website that usually have aorund 1000 votes). I just used this as an example that there are probably general viewers (not particularly primed towards or against Chrolli) who currently don't see Chrolli as very rootworthy/likable due to the current storyline. (again this might flip again if the story gets better, but I do think that this lack of emotion/portayal does influence people's opinion)
My impression is that around the time when the Jessica thing happened there was a lot more sympathy from the general (non Chrolli) audience towards Chrolli (in the sense of: Awwww, poor Chrolli is being screwed over by the writers, how unfair), but that attitude seems to have gone away by now. My guess is due to Christian not only sleeping with Theresa but continuing to sleep with her or a combo of that and Jessica becoming more likable (while around/before the threesome she was pretty much disliked and considered useless by most people).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2011 12:41:03 GMT -5
I think , it's possible that the writers occasionally read the comments in the official forum, but it does not affect their writing . more important to the writers and producers could be e-mails to the press- office or that official poll about all SL's ...
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 14, 2011 12:51:05 GMT -5
I think , it's possible that the writers occasionally read the comments in the official forum, but it does not affect their writing . more important to the writers and producers could be e-mails to the press- office or that official poll about all SL's ... They used to have semi regularly updated polls on the official page that had a lot more votes (between 1 and 3 thousand I think) than the forum polls (because they were ip based I think and didn't require any signup). But even they were always completely useless, particularly since they were usually only put up long after the things they questioned about had already been decided on and already been shot. I still remember the infamous Sarah/Leonard one where they asked whether Sarah and Leonard deserved to be happy now and it was like 90% of the votes either No or Hell No Not that that kept them from giving Sarah and Leo a dream wedding and a happy exit together.
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Post by mandalai on Aug 14, 2011 12:55:39 GMT -5
My impression is that around the time when the Jessica thing happened there was a lot more sympathy from the general (non Chrolli) audience towards Chrolli (in the sense of: Awwww, poor Chrolli is being screwed over by the writers, how unfair), but that attitude seems to have gone away by now. My guess is due to Christian not only sleeping with Theresa but continuing to sleep with her or a combo of that and Jessica becoming more likable (while around/before the threesome she was pretty much disliked and considered useless by most people). You are right but personally I don't like J at all. Writers have decided to make her more pleasant using Olli's character, the sweetheart in the town and they are "forcing" audience to ship this ridiculous, pointless friendship with olli. I'm too mentally independent to let writers to decide who I have to like. JMO
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Post by mandalai on Aug 14, 2011 13:02:19 GMT -5
Is Jessica his doormat then too because she ended the campaign for him? in Latin language they say: "do ut des" (I give something to you and you give something to me). She has stopped the ad campaign and very soon SPOLILER she'll oblige Olli to sell his soul to Tanja modelling for the bitch who tried to kill him... a very good person J, of course. When you have J as a BF you don't need enemies.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 14, 2011 13:08:04 GMT -5
You have to look at it from the general audience member perspective. For them, whether they like it or not Jessica is there. She was annoying in the Trilandi story, she was obnoxious in the story afterward, she was annoying throwing herself at Ansgar. But now she is measurably less annoying in the flatshare and occasionally genuinely funny. For them that's a win. If they have to have her on the show, it makes sense to pack her in a place where she is less annoying.
I think the general audience member does not really currently see a reason why they should like Chrolli together because the show isn't selling any romance, or major yearning for each other/being miserable for each other. If the characters don't call for it, why should the audience care? And it's not like the Rebecca time where people hated the alternative indefinitely more. Olli doesn't have a new partner to be more annoying/less chemistry laden than Christian. And with Theresa I think most people either think they have some chemistry or they just find them really easy to ignore because they have so little screentime (they aren't a pushed couple).
Anyway, that's why I still think that if they want to get the general populace to like Chrolli again Christian will have to eventually start doing interesting and romantic things, not so much to win back Olli but to win back the audience, give them romantic scenes and with that a reason why they should think that Chrolli is a good idea.
(I do think that the audience is completely capable of this kind of reboot thinking. aka that they will change their opinion when a new scenario is presented. I just think that the current situation is not perceived as pro-Chrolli/Chrolli-likable or relatable to people)
SPOILER I'm still not convinced that the modelling stuff is really going to be a bad thing. More a thing they both profit from. For Olli there are a lot of advantages too: - money - feeling desirable again - needs distraction from his normal life - a chance to spy on Tanja for Charlie
And since Jessica works for Tanja and even admires her, I don't think that she is doing this to Olli as doing something mean to him. For her perspective this is probably a dream job.
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