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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2011 13:25:25 GMT -5
well, .... doormat. thanks people, this discussion really amused me ;D this will probably be my second favorite discussion ( just after faking / pretending of moaning and groaning ) , but that discussion about Rafael just a few weeks ago (that he actualy didn't want Olli at all ) was also not bad
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 13, 2011 13:30:30 GMT -5
Aren't those two different pair of shoes?
Issue 1: Jessica only takes and takes and never gives anything back, this makes Olli a doormat Issue 2: Olli forgives Jessica and not Christian, that is unfair
Answer to issue 1: She did things for him/he felt she did things for him aka helping him when he was messed up. And she sacrificed something fairly important for him due to his request/influence.
Answer to issue 2: the preexisting arguments: Christian's betrayal is bigger because they made vows to each other and Christian keeps doing things that are upsetting to Olli (Olli does not want Christian to have sex with women, Christian has and keeps having sex with Theresa; Olli was presumably ready to go towards forgiving Christian when Nico came to him to talk about Phil but then Olli saw Christian with Theresa and it fed into his prejudice that Christian likes women). Also, the kind of relationship Christian and Olli would have/should have if he forgave him is much deeper than the one he has with Jessica. If Jessica stabs him in the back again he can kick her out. If he takes back Christian and Christian stabs him in the back then Olli gets his heart broken again. So the relationship they have requires a lot more trust and includes a lot more risk, Olli's trust is shaken due to Christian hooking up with women. It's a state Olli maybe does not particularly want to return to. And if he forgave Christian then maybe he would have to justify/fight not returning to that. Just like Theresa is Christian's easy lay/no strings attached sex connection, Jessica could be Olli's easy emotional connection (not that deep yet).
If he loses Jessica as a friend he still has plenty of backup friends. (in fact Jessica has much more to lose since she doesn't have other friends and she would be losing her place to live; so in a way Olli has the longer legs here; that makes her less risky)
[note that doesn't mean that he doesn't genuinely like her or enjoy being around her, maybe he likes the lack of judgement? or he gets a kick out of mothering and guiding her?]
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Post by paulie2906 on Aug 13, 2011 13:34:36 GMT -5
I want to address the issue that Christian is not showing he misses the intensity he shared with Olli. That sentence might have been taken from Christian's updated bio which would be a cut down version of his entry in the series bible. For those who don't know most continuing drama series and soaps have their own 'bibles' which basically give an overview of the series then a break down of each of the characters and their backgrounds. It gets updated every year in order to reflect the current SL, and altered circumstances of characters and also gives a heads up to where the different SL's are headed. So Christian missing the intensity he shared with Olli may very well relate to future events within this SL rather than where it is at the moment.
But while writers might have been asked to hold off on Christian actually saying he misses the intensity of his relationship with Olli they would be expected to foreshadow this possibility by showing Christian reacting to Olli's attempts to move on by either knocking around a boxing bag or making the odd snarky comment in order to to prevent Christian's future need for intensity from seeming to come completely out of left field.
Now this is just my take on how things might be because I don't work on VL but most soaps and continuing dramas work along these lines and it would odd if VL didn't.
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Trish
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Post by Trish on Aug 13, 2011 13:35:51 GMT -5
Aren't those two different pair of shoes? Issue 1: Jessica only takes and takes and never gives anything back, this makes Olli a doormat Issue 2: Olli forgives Jessica and not Christian, that is unfair Answer to issue 1: She did things for him/he felt she did things for him aka helping him when he was messed up. And she sacrificed something fairly important for him due to his request/influence. Answer to issue 2: the preexisting arguments: Christian's betrayal is bigger because they made vows to each other and Christian keeps doing things that are upsetting to Olli (Olli does not want Christian to have sex with women, Christian has and keeps having sex with Theresa; Olli was presumably ready to go towards forgiving Christian when Nico came to him to talk about Phil but then Olli saw Christian with Theresa and it fed into his prejudice that Christian likes women). Also, the kind of relationship Christian and Olli would have/should have if he forgave him is much deeper than the one he has with Jessica. If Jessica stabs him in the back again he can kick her out. If he takes back Christian and Christian stabs him in the back then Olli gets his heart broken again. So the relationship they have requires a lot more trust and includes a lot more risk, Olli's trust is shaken due to Christian hooking up with women. It's a state Olli maybe does not particularly want to return to. And if he forgave Christian then maybe he would have to justify/fight not returning to that. Just like Theresa is Christian's easy lay/no strings attached sex connection, Jessica could be Olli's easy emotional connection (not that deep yet). If he loses Jessica as a friend he still has plenty of backup friends. (in fact Jessica has much more to lose since she doesn't have other friends and she would be losing her place to live; so in a way Olli has the longer legs here; that makes her less risky) I give you that and I thnk they both will be hurt in the end. So just like people don't want Chrisitan with Theresa, I don't want Olli with Jessica.
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Post by angelarose on Aug 13, 2011 13:39:57 GMT -5
I didn't exactly say it was unfair that Olli forgave Jessica and not Christian. I was just pointing out that his reason for forgiving her is flimsy because Christian was also there for him during the accident thing. Also I was pointing out that Olli forgiving Jessica sans apology and remorse because she isn't the 'type' to offer it is also flimsy and a double standard where handing out forgiveness is concerned. It's not so much that I'm saying Olli should also forgive Christian, I can understand why that would be difficult and why he hasn't, it's more that I'm saying he shouldn't have forgiven Jessica. Just because she was easier to forgive or wasn't the one who betrayed Olli's trust or vows and he risks no heartbreak by forgiving her doesn't mean he has to, especially when his reasons for doing so are flimsy at best.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 13, 2011 13:43:50 GMT -5
I didn't exactly say it was unfair that Olli forgave Jessica and not Christian. I was just pointing out that his reason for forgiving her is flimsy because Christian was also there for him during the accident thing. Also I was pointing out that Olli forgiving Jessica sans apology and remorse because she isn't the 'type' to offer it is also flimsy and a double standard where handing out forgiveness is concerned. And I was pointing out that it makes sense the parameters for forgiveness are differnt/double standard. It's two very different relationships and two very different situations. So it makes sense that the threshold is different. Again, Olli was presumably ready-ish to forgive Christian when he walked in on C&T. So from his perspective Christian keeps doing the bad thing Olli does not like (aka doing the vagina dance) while Jessica is not still having sex with Olli's great loves at the moment.
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Post by chrischi on Aug 13, 2011 13:47:28 GMT -5
Aren't those two different pair of shoes? Issue 1: Jessica only takes and takes and never gives anything back, this makes Olli a doormat Issue 2: Olli forgives Jessica and not Christian, that is unfair Answer to issue 1: She did things for him/he felt she did things for him aka helping him when he was messed up. And she sacrificed something fairly important for him due to his request/influence. Answer to issue 2: the preexisting arguments: Christian's betrayal is bigger because they made vows to each other and Christian keeps doing things that are upsetting to Olli (Olli does not want Christian to have sex with women, Christian has and keeps having sex with Theresa; Olli was presumably ready to go towards forgiving Christian when Nico came to him to talk about Phil but then Olli saw Christian with Theresa and it fed into his prejudice that Christian likes women). Also, the kind of relationship Christian and Olli would have/should have if he forgave him is much deeper than the one he has with Jessica. If Jessica stabs him in the back again he can kick her out. If he takes back Christian and Christian stabs him in the back then Olli gets his heart broken again. So the relationship they have requires a lot more trust and includes a lot more risk, Olli's trust is shaken due to Christian hooking up with women. It's a state Olli maybe does not particularly want to return to. And if he forgave Christian then maybe he would have to justify/fight not returning to that. Just like Theresa is Christian's easy lay/no strings attached sex connection, Jessica could be Olli's easy emotional connection (not that deep yet). If he loses Jessica as a friend he still has plenty of backup friends. (in fact Jessica has much more to lose since she doesn't have other friends and she would be losing her place to live; so in a way Olli has the longer legs here; that makes her less risky) I agree. I think there's no way Jessica could ever hurt Olli anywhere near as much as Christian can. That's the risk when you love someone. And the more you love, the more it hurts.
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Post by angelarose on Aug 13, 2011 13:47:46 GMT -5
Aren't those two different pair of shoes? Issue 1: Jessica only takes and takes and never gives anything back, this makes Olli a doormat Issue 2: Olli forgives Jessica and not Christian, that is unfair Answer to issue 1: She did things for him/he felt she did things for him aka helping him when he was messed up. And she sacrificed something fairly important for him due to his request/influence. Answer to issue 2: the preexisting arguments: Christian's betrayal is bigger because they made vows to each other and Christian keeps doing things that are upsetting to Olli (Olli does not want Christian to have sex with women, Christian has and keeps having sex with Theresa; Olli was presumably ready to go towards forgiving Christian when Nico came to him to talk about Phil but then Olli saw Christian with Theresa and it fed into his prejudice that Christian likes women). Also, the kind of relationship Christian and Olli would have/should have if he forgave him is much deeper than the one he has with Jessica. If Jessica stabs him in the back again he can kick her out. If he takes back Christian and Christian stabs him in the back then Olli gets his heart broken again. So the relationship they have requires a lot more trust and includes a lot more risk, Olli's trust is shaken due to Christian hooking up with women. It's a state Olli maybe does not particularly want to return to. And if he forgave Christian then maybe he would have to justify/fight not returning to that. Just like Theresa is Christian's easy lay/no strings attached sex connection, Jessica could be Olli's easy emotional connection (not that deep yet). If he loses Jessica as a friend he still has plenty of backup friends. (in fact Jessica has much more to lose since she doesn't have other friends and she would be losing her place to live; so in a way Olli has the longer legs here; that makes her less risky) I give you that and I thnk they both will be hurt in the end. So just like people don't want Chrisitan with Theresa, I don't want Olli with Jessica. I suppose that's true that Jessica for Olli is akin to Theresa for Christian (though I'm not sure why Olli needed a bew BFF or a new 'friend' emotional connection when he has plenty of friends who haven't screwed with his life.) But I agree with twatts, I don't want to see Olli with Jessica any more than I want Christian with Theresa.
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Post by angelarose on Aug 13, 2011 13:52:04 GMT -5
I didn't exactly say it was unfair that Olli forgave Jessica and not Christian. I was just pointing out that his reason for forgiving her is flimsy because Christian was also there for him during the accident thing. Also I was pointing out that Olli forgiving Jessica sans apology and remorse because she isn't the 'type' to offer it is also flimsy and a double standard where handing out forgiveness is concerned. And I was pointing out that it makes sense the parameters for forgiveness are differnt/double standard. It's two very different relationships and two very different situations. So it makes sense that the threshold is different. Again, Olli was presumably ready-ish to forgive Christian when he walked in on C&T. So from his perspective Christian keeps doing the bad thing Olli does not like (aka doing the vagina dance) while Jessica is not still having sex with Olli's great loves at the moment. Yes, the threshold or parameters for forgiveness can be different or less for Jessica than for Christian, that makes sense, but I don't think it should be zero either. I don't think she should be forgiven without showing any remorse at all or offering any apology. Again, it's not as if Olli was required to forgive either of them.
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pru
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Post by pru on Aug 13, 2011 13:57:38 GMT -5
Is Jessica his doormat then too because she ended the campaign for him? Exactly, lolaruns. She was being a real friend to Olli because he has been one to her, thus making him sweet and awesome. ETA: I like your new term "vagina dance" that is so fitting and so on point. And I suspect I will be using the term in the future.
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Trish
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Post by Trish on Aug 13, 2011 14:10:21 GMT -5
Is Jessica his doormat then too because she ended the campaign for him? Exactly, lolaruns. She was being a real friend to Olli because he has been one to her, thus making him sweet and awesome. ETA: I like your new term "vagina dance" that is so fitting and so on point. And I suspect I will be using the term in the future. Good maybe "sexy fun times" will be givne a rest. Note: Sorry Joanna. I'll go back to lurking.
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kira
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Post by kira on Aug 13, 2011 14:12:22 GMT -5
I´m sorry, I don´t think it´s awesome if Olli becomes best friends with a woman, who accused his best friend of raping her and so on. I don´t want to repeat everything that happened with Jessica. The problem is not that he gave her a place to live or didn´t let her pay for the water damage and that she ended the campaign for him. I agree that all of that could be the beginning of a nice friendship. The point is that this friendship is unbelievable because no one in Olli´s place would befriend her in the first place after everything that happened. Who would seriously want to live or be friends with the woman his/her partner cheated with and so on?!
On the other hand, one could always use the argument that it´s a soap and viewers are supposed to ignore such things and forget the past every few months when a new storyline starts. However, in this case everybody should also not have a problem to forgive Christian and think Chrolli are a great couple once the writers start to redeem him and write him as a sweet boyfriend again. Just like with Jessica all should be forgiven and forgotten within a few weeks then.
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joanna
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Post by joanna on Aug 13, 2011 14:22:14 GMT -5
I like your new term "vagina dance" that is so fitting and so on point. And I suspect I will be using the term in the future. Hopefully not very much (on this public board!), though, Pru! It is rather, er, 'personal'!
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Trish
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Post by Trish on Aug 13, 2011 14:22:18 GMT -5
Would be easy to forgive, if the things she's done and the results of such didn't keep being brought up, so I don't think we are suppose to forget them.
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joanna
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Post by joanna on Aug 13, 2011 14:23:28 GMT -5
Note: Sorry Joanna. I'll go back to lurking. Don't know what you're referring to here, btw!
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pru
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Post by pru on Aug 13, 2011 14:24:17 GMT -5
Exactly, lolaruns. She was being a real friend to Olli because he has been one to her, thus making him sweet and awesome. ETA: I like your new term "vagina dance" that is so fitting and so on point. And I suspect I will be using the term in the future. Good maybe "sexy fun times" will be givne a rest. Note: Sorry Joanna. I'll go back to lurking. Well since I didn't have the honor of coining that brilliant brain child, I doubt it. I can see it being used alot in the future.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Aug 13, 2011 14:35:03 GMT -5
Paulie - A show may put out a spoiler, that will supposedly be used in the future (long down the road) for a current storyline, but Christian hasn't even relayed the he IS "missing the intensity" for Olli TO anyone else on the show. It's like if a tree falls in the forest and NOBODY is there to witness it. The tree MAY have fallen in the forest, but on a soap, the audience needs to see (or at least have it be mentioned about the character that the spoiler is based on or about) it.
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Trish
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Post by Trish on Aug 13, 2011 14:39:22 GMT -5
DD spoiler talk
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joanna
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Post by joanna on Aug 13, 2011 14:49:25 GMT -5
'DD' as in 'Düsseldorf'? (There's only one other DD I know on these boards! ) I didn't think you'd mentioned a spoiler. I had to spoiler tag a post in here, but not one of yours.
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Post by chrischi on Aug 13, 2011 15:05:20 GMT -5
On the other hand, one could always use the argument that it´s a soap and viewers are supposed to ignore such things and forget the past every few months when a new storyline starts. However, in this case everybody should also not have a problem to forgive Christian and think Chrolli are a great couple once the writers start to redeem him and write him as a sweet boyfriend again. Just like with Jessica all should be forgiven and forgotten within a few weeks then. I think in general we're supposed to ignore a lot of flaws in VL. It doesn't mean however that there're no differences. Some things are easier to ignore than others. I think it's more difficult to ignore flaws in stories that I really care for. For example flaws in the Chrolli story are much more important for me than flaws in let's say the Helandi story. So it's (perhaps) more difficult for me to forgive Christian and see Chrolli as a super couple again than to forgive Jessica and accept her friendship with Olli.
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pru
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Post by pru on Aug 13, 2011 15:18:23 GMT -5
Paulie - A show may put out a spoiler, that will supposedly be used in the future (long down the road) for a current storyline, but Christian hasn't even relayed the he IS "missing the intensity" for Olli TO anyone else on the show. It's like if a tree falls in the forest and NOBODY is there to witness it. The tree MAY have fallen in the forest, but on a soap, the audience needs to see (or at least have it be mentioned about the character that the spoiler is based on or about) it. Good analogy, DD.
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Post by paulie2906 on Aug 13, 2011 17:34:30 GMT -5
Paulie - A show may put out a spoiler, that will supposedly be used in the future (long down the road) for a current storyline, but Christian hasn't even relayed the he IS "missing the intensity" for Olli TO anyone else on the show. It's like if a tree falls in the forest and NOBODY is there to witness it. The tree MAY have fallen in the forest, but on a soap, the audience needs to see (or at least have it be mentioned about the character that the spoiler is based on or about) it. Let's say that you are right and the audience expects Christian to declare that he misses the intensity he had with Olli. From a writing point of view if Christian shows his hand now how then do you handle his character for the months during which this SL will most probably drag on? Do you have him keep on repeating how much he misses the intensity he had with Olli until like the boxing bag scenes we are sick of it? And if so, how do you explain the fact that he continues sleeping with Theresa? Or do you have him say it once never mention it again and continue to sleep with Theresa? Either way would audiences really believe that he was being at all sincere? Would it not be more dramatically satisfying to hold off until such a time when he has been with Theresa for a good while and the audience believes that he is over Olli to then have him say it? Also you are assuming that the majority of VL audiences are privy to bios, spoilers and all the other titbits posted on this forum and even on the official site. Many of them may choose not to be spoiled and so may have no idea that Christian is or will miss the intensity he had with Olli and so will not be expecting him to make declarations to that effect.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Aug 13, 2011 18:01:26 GMT -5
'DD' as in 'Düsseldorf'? (There's only one other DD I know on these boards! ) I didn't think you'd mentioned a spoiler. I had to spoiler tag a post in here, but not one of yours. Thanks, Joanna. I didn't think that "missing the intenstiy" was STILL considered to be a spoiler.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Aug 13, 2011 18:16:52 GMT -5
Yes, I do expect Christian to repeatedly talk and show that he's "missing the intensity" of Olli. I don't think that would be considered to be "ad naseum", especially by folks on this forum. We've got folks already complaining about how Chrolli "aren't being treated" like Helandi or Phico and when I suggest something that would bring some focus onto Christian, it's shot down? I just don't get it.
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joanna
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Post by joanna on Aug 13, 2011 18:17:39 GMT -5
Thanks, Joanna. I didn't think that "missing the intenstiy" was STILL considered to be a spoiler. Well actually, I think it's both a spoiler and not a spoiler all rolled into one! Nite, y'all!
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