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Post by lolaruns on Aug 13, 2011 2:42:07 GMT -5
Well the writers generally haven't been the smartest lately about optimally mining the dramatic potential. That's why the few times when they actually do it successfully (like Jan and Julia in the confessional) really stick out as being good by comparison.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 13, 2011 3:00:29 GMT -5
So, if we go with the assumption that VL doesn't do subtle then what are we 'supposed' to be interpreting? Are we supposed to just be feeling that they're being lazy and aren't showing us anything, positive or negative, especially from Christian and thus not interpret anything? I believe that is the case. It's lazy writing. ;D IMO for them for whatever reason the storyline is "on hold" for them. Once it kicks in mayve they will inform us what we respectively the characters are supposed to be feeling but right now that isn't the case so for the time being the characters don't feel much of anything. IMO it's still super dumb because to me that ruins any narrative of Chrolli being a great and impressive love but apparently that was their choice (to let other things have precendence over this). [this is why I still think that it's very likely that they will reunite but in a lazy anticlimactic underwritten fashion; probably at the same time where Helandi gets a much more flashy overwritten larger than life pretty reunion] [I'd gladly be proven wrong, especially on the Chrolli front aka that they find an actually interesting character exploring way to do this, regardless of whether it is flashy or more low key] No. I'm going with option "Lazy".
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Post by phoenix-feather on Aug 13, 2011 3:04:55 GMT -5
Olli's greatest fear>>Christian deep down wants to be with women, therefore Olli can never be adequate for him<< Right now, in Olli's eyes and many of fans' , his fear has become reality...... Christian claims otherwise, constantly. He has said "you can say it a thousand times, but it won't start being true", when Olli came back from Majorca. BUT WHY? I want an explanation for this from the writers, and how they are going to provide it, I don't know, since Christian doesn't seem to be their first choice.
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pru
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Post by pru on Aug 13, 2011 3:19:00 GMT -5
So we are supposed to believe that just because we were shown Christian punching a bag a few times that he misses the intensity of his relationship with Olli. We’re supposed to glean through osmoses that he misses Olli because he gave him puppy dog eyes. We’re supposed to take all of these so called visual cues to mean that he misses Olli’s intensity so much that he has to jump into bed with the first female that smiles at him. And not just once, not just twice, but an on going affair. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t want anyone to miss my intensity that much. When Christian was sick and went off with his brother to the woods he was a miserable mess and he articulated rather clearly that he was miserable because he missed Olli. He didn’t go punch a tree or throw a rock into the water or go yell at a mountain, he actually used those simple things called words and told his brother and us how important Olli was to him and how much he missed him. And then he did the damnest thing. He actually left his brother in the woods went home and told Olli that he loved and missed him. I only mention this because all this silent strong type people keep harping about when it comes to Christian is bullshit. When he wants to tell Olli anything he does. When he wants to keep his mouth shut he does. Christian want Olli to forgive him but on his terms. He wants to be with Olli again on his terms. He’d not actually willing to put in the work it takes to gain said forgiveness. He has done nothing to show Olli he is sorry, or miserable. What he has shown Olli is that while he keeps saying he’s gay and loves him he’s still sleeping with a woman. What he has shown Olli is that he has no regard for his feelings by flaunting the “jockey bitch” in his face, every chance he gets. Then he has to nerve, the unmitigated gall to say word one about Olli’s preferences. Well, hell Christian you should know what Olli’s preferences are, you used to be one. And could be again if your get your own head out of your ass for two seconds. And while Olli is certainly no saint in all of this and needs to own up to his share of the blame. Him being and doing something stupid out of grief does not mean in any way shape or form that he deserved to be cheated on. After three and a half years, Christian owed him more than that. I can understand Christian being pissed. I can understand him going out and knocking back a few and maybe not coming home and letting Olli stew in his own juices a little. But to cheat on his husband because of what happened was uncalled for. And then to basically demand forgiveness showed a level of assholeishness I didn’t think him capable of. He wants to be forgiven but only with addendums, provisos and guarantees. What kind of bullshit is that? He want to continue seeing who he wants to continue seeing while at the same time being able to stick his unwanted nose in Olli’s now private life (which by his own past and continued actions) he is no longer apart of (at present). Olli most likely would not have seen him and the shrimp from hell has Christian not made a concerted effort to put himself in Olli’s way, so he could then get snarky. What did he not think Olli would point out that kettle was calling the pot black? And Charlie just needs to shut up now. We get it she is pro Chrolli. But only lectures one side of the equation. Oh if only Olli would forgive Christian he’d stop slipping his sausage in her bun and be a good boy. Yeah, right. And I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you really cheap. DAYUM, LadyArmand! This post should seriously be FRAMED! Just when I thought you couldn't surpass your usually level of awesomeness and on pointness, you just DID! Everything you just said about Thursday and Friday's show was so damn true and conveyed everything I was trying to say about Christian's hypocritical, assy, and surpreme jerkiness but I was just too enraged at the epitome of his arrogance. How anyone could see that behavior at Charlie's as him supposedly caring about Olli is beyond me because if he really cared he would have spoken to Olli in a different tone of voice, not the one he uses when he purposely tries to start a fight with him, which is exactly what his trifling ass did.
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Post by angelarose on Aug 13, 2011 3:24:04 GMT -5
So, if we go with the assumption that VL doesn't do subtle then what are we 'supposed' to be interpreting? Are we supposed to just be feeling that they're being lazy and aren't showing us anything, positive or negative, especially from Christian and thus not interpret anything? I believe that is the case. It's lazy writing. ;D IMO for them for whatever reason the storyline is "on hold" for them. Once it kicks in mayve they will inform us what we respectively the characters are supposed to be feeling but right now that isn't the case so for the time being the characters don't feel much of anything. IMO it's still super dumb because to me that ruins any narrative of Chrolli being a great and impressive love but apparently that was their choice (to let other things have precendence over this). [this is why I still think that it's very likely that they will reunite but in a lazy anticlimactic underwritten fashion; probably at the same time where Helandi gets a much more flashy overwritten larger than life pretty reunion] [I'd gladly be proven wrong, especially on the Chrolli front aka that they find an actually interesting character exploring way to do this, regardless of whether it is flashy or more low key] No. I'm going with option "Lazy". I agree it's probably just lazy writing and other stories have a higher priority right now, and maybe once some of the others are wrapped up they'll delve further into Chrolli. So we'll probably keep getting small glimpses here or there about what they're feeling until that magic date arrives. But I'm not sure I agree with your flat "no" response on them keeping Christian quiet for right now (and thus us in the dark). Of course it's just my opinion, but why only be 'lazy' with Christian and not both Christian and Olli? (Not that they've gone much deeper with Olli.) I suppose it could be Christian's lack of screentime relative to Olli, but I don't get the point of that either since they're both support characters right now. It just seems like it's lazy writing, with a pinch of intent. And I too hope you're wrong (sorry ) about Chrolli being reunited in a "lazy anticlimactic underwritten fashion", especially if Helena and Andi get an epic reunion.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 13, 2011 3:34:51 GMT -5
Because somebody has some passing fondness for Jessica and/or the flatshare? Maybe they just found Olli more suitable to write for for the storylines they are telling? (like Andi missing Helena or Jessica's current mini story about her road to success or not)
There has been quite a bit of discussion about how Jo/Olli tends to work better in those support scenes with others. Maybe the writers saw that too? I mean there is no reason in my eyes why Christian couldn't have some epic one sided I support you friendship with Andi or Hagen while Chrolli is in limbo. Except that it/he doesn't work. They even toned down the Christian/Dana (though that could be because the story might require Christian on Theresa's side for a while, and if they don't want Christian to have genuine emotions for Theresa that can only work if his friendship with Dana is only casual too)
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Post by angelarose on Aug 13, 2011 3:37:02 GMT -5
So we are supposed to believe that just because we were shown Christian punching a bag a few times that he misses the intensity of his relationship with Olli. We’re supposed to glean through osmoses that he misses Olli because he gave him puppy dog eyes. We’re supposed to take all of these so called visual cues to mean that he misses Olli’s intensity so much that he has to jump into bed with the first female that smiles at him. And not just once, not just twice, but an on going affair. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t want anyone to miss my intensity that much. When Christian was sick and went off with his brother to the woods he was a miserable mess and he articulated rather clearly that he was miserable because he missed Olli. He didn’t go punch a tree or throw a rock into the water or go yell at a mountain, he actually used those simple things called words and told his brother and us how important Olli was to him and how much he missed him. And then he did the damnest thing. He actually left his brother in the woods went home and told Olli that he loved and missed him. I only mention this because all this silent strong type people keep harping about when it comes to Christian is bullshit. When he wants to tell Olli anything he does. When he wants to keep his mouth shut he does. Christian want Olli to forgive him but on his terms. He wants to be with Olli again on his terms. He’d not actually willing to put in the work it takes to gain said forgiveness. He has done nothing to show Olli he is sorry, or miserable. What he has shown Olli is that while he keeps saying he’s gay and loves him he’s still sleeping with a woman. What he has shown Olli is that he has no regard for his feelings by flaunting the “jockey bitch” in his face, every chance he gets. Then he has to nerve, the unmitigated gall to say word one about Olli’s preferences. Well, hell Christian you should know what Olli’s preferences are, you used to be one. And could be again if your get your own head out of your ass for two seconds. And while Olli is certainly no saint in all of this and needs to own up to his share of the blame. Him being and doing something stupid out of grief does not mean in any way shape or form that he deserved to be cheated on. After three and a half years, Christian owed him more than that. I can understand Christian being pissed. I can understand him going out and knocking back a few and maybe not coming home and letting Olli stew in his own juices a little. But to cheat on his husband because of what happened was uncalled for. And then to basically demand forgiveness showed a level of assholeishness I didn’t think him capable of. He wants to be forgiven but only with addendums, provisos and guarantees. What kind of bullshit is that? He want to continue seeing who he wants to continue seeing while at the same time being able to stick his unwanted nose in Olli’s now private life (which by his own past and continued actions) he is no longer apart of (at present). Olli most likely would not have seen him and the shrimp from hell has Christian not made a concerted effort to put himself in Olli’s way, so he could then get snarky. What did he not think Olli would point out that kettle was calling the pot black? And Charlie just needs to shut up now. We get it she is pro Chrolli. But only lectures one side of the equation. Oh if only Olli would forgive Christian he’d stop slipping his sausage in her bun and be a good boy. Yeah, right. And I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you really cheap. DAYUM, LadyArmand! This post should seriously be FRAMED! Just when I thought you couldn't surpass your usually level of awesomeness and on pointness, you just DID! Everything you just said about Thursday and Friday's show was so damn true and conveyed everything I was trying to say about Christian's hypocritical, assy, and surpreme jerkiness but I was just too enraged at the epitome of his arrogance. How anyone could see that behavior at Charlie's as him supposedly caring about Olli is beyond me because if he really cared he would have spoken to Olli in a different tone of voice, not the one he uses when he purposely tries to start a fight with him, which is exactly what his trifling ass did. I think people meant Christian "cared" about Olli in the context of him being affected by and/or jealous of Olli moving on with others, and therefore he still "cares" or has feelings for Olli. Of course Christian's being a hypocrite, but something being hypocritical doesn't mean you can't also be hurt or affected by it. And him picking a fight, which obviously wasn't the best course of action, is just part of him revealing that he hasn't moved on or forgotten about Olli and is still affected by his actions. Again, hypocritical of course, but human.
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Post by phoenix-feather on Aug 13, 2011 3:44:25 GMT -5
It just seems like it's lazy writing, with a pinch of intent. And I too hope you're wrong (sorry ) about Chrolli being reunited in a "lazy anticlimactic underwritten fashion", especially if Helena and Andi get an epic reunion. nice recipe, angelarose (pinch of intent,LOL) how many time have Andi and Helena been broken up and re-united in the past...its getting old now....even though (against popular opinion)I like the couple, their story sucks big time. that is one reason I believe even if they are getting more dramatic 'pining-for-each other' scenes now, they won't have an over the top reunion (I could easily be wrong,but that's what I think) as for Chrolli reunion, given that the VL press dept. keeps saying that they forward our e-mails to the writers, I think the writers would certainly be aware that fans have great expectations, whether they'll work on meeting them.....
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Post by angelarose on Aug 13, 2011 3:55:25 GMT -5
It just seems like it's lazy writing, with a pinch of intent. And I too hope you're wrong (sorry ) about Chrolli being reunited in a "lazy anticlimactic underwritten fashion", especially if Helena and Andi get an epic reunion. nice recipe, angelarose (pinch of intent,LOL) how many time have Andi and Helena been broken up and re-united in the past...its getting old now....even though (against popular opinion)I like the couple, their story sucks big time. that is one reason I believe even if they are getting more dramatic 'pining-for-each other' scenes now, they won't have an over the top reunion (I could easily be wrong,but that's what I think) as for Chrolli reunion, given that the VL press dept. keeps saying that they forward our e-mails to the writers, I think the writers would certainly be aware that fans have great expectations, whether they'll work on meeting them..... Thanks. Now if only we could get a dash of continuity...
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Post by phoenix-feather on Aug 13, 2011 4:00:42 GMT -5
oh, keep stirring, soon we'll have nice dish and you can call it 'The Chrolli Limbo'
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bel7003
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You've got the most beautiful eyes and you'll always be the one for me
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Post by bel7003 on Aug 13, 2011 4:08:46 GMT -5
Christian and Olli hit the jackpot, with their love. And they lived a strong (even though difficult, at times) relationship for 3 and a half years. They thought they would be together forever and they both changed for the sake/due to that love. But they suffered a traumatic experience (they lost their daughter, which sometimes we forget, because that s/l was rushed and their need to have a baby just came out of the blue) and that struck them hard and they made mistakes. Those mistakes changed their lives and the perception of who they were and who the other one was. It's something that happens in real life, all the time. Now, the question is: will Chrolli make it? We've been shown more of Olli than of Christian, but I think both of them are trying to go back to who they were before they fell in love, in an attempt to erase those years, those feelings, and start over again where they left off. Christian went back to a woman, and I'm not going to discuss his feelings, because that's a bit left to interpretation, since the show has chosen to focus on Olli, right now. However, I think he still loves Olli, but he feels guilty and insecure. Olli has rejected him time and again and he still hasn't got a clue how to win Olli back, because he, too, counted on Olli's love. Besides, like he said more than once, he's hurting and , therefore, he's gone into defensive mode, so, every time he sees Olli, well... the best defense is attacking. Not to mention Christian is very proud, so he will put up a fight, before he realizes this attitude isn't getting him anywhere. As for Olli, yesterday's dialogue with his friends and Chralie show the same thing. He's regretting his life with Christian, realizing he's changed and fearing to have to go through with life all alone, which is a very real fear people who go through break ups often experience. I can understand Olli, at this point, and being the active person he is, he's trying to do something. But Dana is right: he's not ready yet. I think both of them need to stop and question themselves what they want for their life. Because going back to who we were before a certain important thing happened in our life is not an option. No matter what they say, loving each other and living together for 3 years changed them. They are no longer who they were and they want different things out of life. Olli has said so, yesterday, although, in the end, he decided to give it a try. But there's something that's bothering me a bit: Olli is now being bombarded with opinions from all the friends. Everyone has a different piece of advice. You should do this, you should do that. I still like Charlie, although I think she has lost hope they will get back together. The best friend, in my opinion, has been Dana. She's very sensible and she knows none of those things will make Olli happy. And then we have Christian, who seems to be all alone, now. And no one dares to tell him anything, because they feel he won't give them a chance to butt in. However, I don't think he's fooling Andi or Dana, because the way they looked at him when they said Toby was Olli's ONS showed they know he still cares. But, of course, Christian didn't want to show his vulnerability in front of his friends and pretended he didn't care. I really don't like the fact that they are not showing more of Christian's emotions, but I guess that's the way this is going to be. Now, we're seeing Olli's side. I hope we'll get to see Christian's, because the way things are now it's a very unbalanced s/l. I do believe that they will both try to cope with their new situation differently, because they are different people, and that's one of the things they will have to learn. They are different, they are not perfect, they make mistakes. But, if their love is worth anything, they will have to forgive those mistakes and accept those differences. Loving someone who's perfect and doesn't make mistakes is easy. But it takes a great love to overcome all Christian and Olli have gone through. If Vl want to tell another great love story, that's what they will do: the story of how they will learn to forgive each other and let that forgiveness lead them to each other's lives again. (Ok, I'm cheesy like that, but I'm happy this way. ;D ;D)
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Post by angelarose on Aug 13, 2011 4:21:31 GMT -5
oh, keep stirring, soon we'll have nice dish and you can call it 'The Chrolli Limbo'
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Post by angelarose on Aug 13, 2011 4:23:05 GMT -5
Christian and Olli hit the jackpot, with their love. And they lived a strong (even though difficult, at times) relationship for 3 and a half years. They thought they would be together forever and they both changed for the sake/due to that love. But they suffered a traumatic experience (they lost their daughter, which sometimes we forget, because that s/l was rushed and their need to have a baby just came out of the blue) and that struck them hard and they made mistakes. Those mistakes changed their lives and the perception of who they were and who the other one was. It's something that happens in real life, all the time. Now, the question is: will Chrolli make it? We've been shown more of Olli than of Christian, but I think both of them are trying to go back to who they were before they fell in love, in an attempt to erase those years, those feelings, and start over again where they left off. Christian went back to a woman, and I'm not going to discuss his feelings, because that's a bit left to interpretation, since the show has chosen to focus on Olli, right now. However, I think he still loves Olli, but he feels guilty and insecure. Olli has rejected him time and again and he still hasn't got a clue how to win Olli back, because he, too, counted on Olli's love. Besides, like he said more than once, he's hurting and , therefore, he's gone into defensive mode, so, every time he sees Olli, well... the best defense is attacking. Not to mention Christian is very proud, so he will put up a fight, before he realizes this attitude isn't getting him anywhere. As for Olli, yesterday's dialogue with his friends and Chralie show the same thing. He's regretting his life with Christian, realizing he's changed and fearing to have to go through with life all alone, which is a very real fear people who go through break ups often experience. I can understand Olli, at this point, and being the active person he is, he's trying to do something. But Dana is right: he's not ready yet. I think both of them need to stop and question themselves what they want for their life. Because going back to who we were before a certain important thing happened in our life is not an option. No matter what they say, loving each other and living together for 3 years changed them. They are no longer who they were and they want different things out of life. Olli has said so, yesterday, although, in the end, he decided to give it a try. But there's something that's bothering me a bit: Olli is now being bombarded with opinions from all the friends. Everyone has a different piece of advice. You should do this, you should do that. I still like Charlie, although I think she has lost hope they will get back together. The best friend, in my opinion, has been Dana. She's very sensible and she knows none of those things will make Olli happy. And then we have Christian, who seems to be all alone, now. And no one dares to tell him anything, because they feel he won't give them a chance to butt in. However, I don't think he's fooling Andi or Dana, because the way they looked at him when they said Toby was Olli's ONS showed they know he still cares. But, of course, Christian didn't want to show his vulnerability in front of his friends and pretended he didn't care. I really don't like the fact that they are not showing more of Christian's emotions, but I guess that's the way this is going to be. Now, we're seeing Olli's side. I hope we'll get to see Christian's, because the way things are now it's a very unbalanced s/l. I do believe that they will both try to cope with their new situation differently, because they are different people, and that's one of the things they will have to learn. They are different, they are not perfect, they make mistakes. But, if their love is worth anything, they will have to forgive those mistakes and accept those differences. Loving someone who's perfect and doesn't make mistakes is easy. But it takes a great love to overcome all Christian and Olli have gone through. If Vl want to tell another great love story, that's what they will do: the story of how they will learn to forgive each other and let that forgiveness lead them to each other's lives again. (Ok, I'm cheesy like that, but I'm happy this way. ;D ;D) Love your post bel, I couldn't have said it better if I tried.
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Post by phoenix-feather on Aug 13, 2011 4:30:46 GMT -5
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bel7003
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You've got the most beautiful eyes and you'll always be the one for me
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Post by bel7003 on Aug 13, 2011 4:31:46 GMT -5
Thank you, angela. I can't help thinking this is going to be a long story. It's like VL has destroyed their love and the characters' most lovable characteristics. Why? There must be a purpose. I believe in your "pinch of intent". They are doing it this way, because that's the story they want to tell. Our problem, here, and the cause of our anguish, is that we don't really trust the writers, do we? (If we did, we would enjoy the pain a lot more). We also need that "dash of continuity".
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bel7003
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You've got the most beautiful eyes and you'll always be the one for me
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Post by bel7003 on Aug 13, 2011 4:33:41 GMT -5
Did I get a little carried away? ;D
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Post by angelarose on Aug 13, 2011 4:53:03 GMT -5
Thank you, angela. I can't help thinking this is going to be a long story. It's like VL has destroyed their love and the characters' most lovable characteristics. Why? There must be a purpose. I believe in your "pinch of intent". They are doing it this way, because that's the story they want to tell. Our problem, here, and the cause of our anguish, is that we don't really trust the writers, do we? (If we did, we would enjoy the pain a lot more). We also need that "dash of continuity". I agree, I feel like there must be some purpose to all this also. If not, this storyline will be terribly anticlimactic. But you're right, we don't trust the writers, and that is a problem with watching this unfold. If we had more of an inkling where they were going with all this then we could better enjoy the ride. Now, what do we need to add to that "pinch of intent" and "dash of continuity" to make this storyline really delicious?...
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Post by chrischi on Aug 13, 2011 5:17:17 GMT -5
Which of Olli's most lovable characteristics did the writers destroy?
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 13, 2011 5:21:21 GMT -5
Which of Olli's most lovable characteristics did the writers destroy? The part where he worships Christian blindly and is ok doing all the lifting and talking and pursuing in the relationship.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2011 5:27:58 GMT -5
Which of Olli's most lovable characteristics did the writers destroy? The part where he worships Christian blindly and is ok doing all the lifting and talking and pursuing in the relationship. I'm not sure if exactly this was the most lovable
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Post by chrischi on Aug 13, 2011 5:33:32 GMT -5
It was at the best a lovable characteristic as long as Christian was at least faithful to Olli.
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gabyta07
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Post by gabyta07 on Aug 13, 2011 5:43:24 GMT -5
Which of Olli's most lovable characteristics did the writers destroy? The ability to see through Christian, he could read Christian like nobody did, even better than Coco, when they were still together...and that reading started when Olli fell in love with Christian. He knew what Christian was thinking even before he thought it. His thinking that love conquers all And the ability to fight to the dead for what you want. Being independant His passion for his work His sexyness ( I mean he is still sexy, even more than before, but the way that they put Olli, its like he has lost it) His go getter attitude and his laid back attitude. This one is not lovable, but I think it was necessary that he lost it. Treating Christian like a child or baby.
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Post by angelarose on Aug 13, 2011 5:58:56 GMT -5
Olli hasn't been portrayed in a perfect light throughout this storyline either. Some of the essence of the character he once was has been destroyed too. I don't think the people who feel Olli has lost some of his good characteristics are referring to him blindly worshipping Christian or doing all the pursuing in the relationship or see those as his most "lovable characteristics." Those aren't things (as far as I can see) that anybody wants to see or thinks that Olli should be doing or would be sorry to see Olli lose.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 13, 2011 6:06:43 GMT -5
IMO the problem is that Olli's best characteristic even before Christian was that he was a sweet friend to others and somebody you could rely on like we are seeing again with Charlie and the Clarissa business.
So it's easier for people who liked Olli before Christian already to see enough of the old Olli.
Meanwhile Christian's most defining characteristic outside of Olli or love stories in general was being faithful/honorable/moral (or at least having strong ideas about that). He has none of that anymore. And he hasn't gotten anything interesting to replace that with. He's just *there*. And he doesn't do anything likable (like being an awesome friend or being really funny) or interesting (like being scheming or whatever).
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Post by angelarose on Aug 13, 2011 6:27:25 GMT -5
I don't think everything good or lovable about Olli has been destroyed, I still see some of the old Olli too. But some of the essence of his character has been lost or changed or diminished, at least for the moment. (And even some of Olli's being a sweet and reliable friend was diminished for a short time, though it seems to be back now.) But they have definitely done a far greater (or rather worse) job of destroying the best and most defining things about Christian's or his most lovable characteristcs.
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