SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 10:05:37 GMT -5
do you truly believe the casual viewer - who VL caters to above and beyond any little focus group - care whether chrolli win out in the end?! it's been too long. they're no gregor and luise. olli reminds me more of matthias (with katja) than anyone else. much maligned and wronged and getting on a bit. i don't think people see them as this epic love story that still has much more to tell. if they do get back together, where do they go from here?! i still have hope they're going to salvage the characters who, individually, have quite a bit of mileage left in them. but only individually. i could see them jetting off into the sunset maybe one day, maybe not. but i don't think - aside from the chrolli fans, who VL don't pander to half as much as they did - anyone really cares that much that they've broken up. they certainly didn't devote the time to the aftermath of their breakup you would expect if they were an epic couple like gregor and luise. what was the last episode? four minutes?! out of twenty?! and they were majorly featured in the spoilers?! i have no desire to change anyone's mind, but equally i don't think i'm wrong, and i don't think i'm wrong in expressing AN opinion that runs counter to the majority on this board. i hope for the sake of those who are really passionate they get the outcome they are hoping for. but i just don't think they belong together anymore. and i don't think that's an inaccurate perception of the show either.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 9:54:00 GMT -5
i like olli, i like christian - and i like them broken up, so why can't i watch? i find your post a little insulting - because i support gay visibility on television 100%. why do us gays have to settle for the first couple that hits our eye line though?! just because i don't support one particular couple doesn't mean i don't support homosexual representation. it just means i have personal taste. and i think it's healthy to voice your opinion. i don't just want gay couples and gay characters on telly - i want them to be in rewarding SLs and set ups. with chrolli, i find their relationship unhealthy at the moment, and very stale - i think they're both brilliant characters though and i hope they go on to bigger and better things. i have repeated myself endlessly that i would want christian's sexuality dealt with sensitively in an ideal world - i hope they don't dismiss his relationship with olli. but just because they are a gay couple, i must like them?! nuh-uh. that's not how it works for me.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 9:49:22 GMT -5
yeah i guess it's comparable. i was focusing more on christian desire to be a 'father' - which is kind of identical to olli's wish to be a 'father' - to the exclusion of the emotions of the co-parent. from a politically correct stand point, its the same as a bloke hiding his wifes birth control, but without the connotations of a direct violation of her body. and a lot less risky, because there's no way they could foster as couple without christian having some inkling before the child arrived on their doorstep. but yeah, comparable. my defense of olli would be, christian brought the idea of fatherhood into their lives, and then withdrew it. and olli had little to no say in the matter. unless he wanted to be a parent without christian. which he ultimately decided he didn't, so sacrificed that particular dream. i can't see it working the other way round, can you? i mean when has christian ever given something up, exclusively for olli?! other than on his wedding day, when you would hope he was doing it, not just for olli but himself as well?! (although i doubt christian ever, really wanted to be married).
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 9:34:47 GMT -5
oh i'm sure they do. and it's those strengths and weaknesses that have led me to the conclusion that they can't be together anymore. they both deserve something more. there's no shame in liking the centre stage, same as there's no shame in being a doormat - the only shame comes when you let those traits overtake YOU. and you let them damage your relationship. i can't wait to see chrolli with other people and i think a lot of the more casual viewers might feel the same. they feel stale and old, and far too familiar to be exciting. it would be different if circumstances kept them apart only for them to keep drifting back to eachother, like those epic soap couples who have relationships that span an era, and who create a frisson with every scene they share. but unfortunately the writers left it too late to create that dynamic, they got comfy and found a temporary cash-cow/international vehicle on which they could promote the show. and chrolli died a bit because of it. what i see now is them treading out the embers. after christian goes for theresa i don't see how they can ever revive chrolli as what they were. plenty of chrolli fans were saying that what made chrolli great was their overall devotion to eachother, the very fact neither of them had strayed in so long made them special. and i tend to agree. that was their thing, what made them different. it stopped being about the chemistry and more just about the portfolio of history they had built up that was so unusual for a soap couple and a gay one at that. so now what? all that's gone. they're broken. and the only way they can be fixed is apart. so i hope they do justice by both characters. i'd like them to deal with christian's sexuality - but i don't think that will take prescience over drama and intrigue. thats why i say pair him with a girl. i just hope olli doesn't get neglected because they've boxed him into the 'gay man' corner. they either need to bring someone in for him, or take him out. or remember that he was the only bisexual on the show when he arrived and sort him out with one of the spare girls (helena? she deserves more than andi). have someone LOVE him, wholeheartedly. i just want to see that. and then i can stop watching and pretend that they aren't going to man-handle chrolli back together at some later stage, probably when christian has succeeded in knocking theresa up and chrolli are forced into parenthood after theresa dies in some freak horse accident. i just want the old characters back, and i don't think we'll ever get them back if they stay together.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 9:20:13 GMT -5
tall, sometime athletic, more-often just 'straight' bloke (more often than not with dark hair (christian mann not included)) falls for out (and usually) proud, beautiful gay guy with attitude and charisma (usually smaller, not including christian clarke and john paul mcqueen) - whilst supposedly dating 'a girl' (various incarnations include, wiet, maddy, sarah, amira, coco, the one off emmerdale, vanessa (although there the chronology was fucked)) - and is conflicted for days/months/weeks - shares a few/ or many embraces with gay guy but always backs off - until he can't stand it anymore, climaxing in a big reveal where everyone finds out and followed by lots of ensuing drama, sometimes in the shape of a disapproving father/father figure (cue anton, col.may, marian, jake dean (even dead wolfgang mann had a look in)). hell even the lesbians are at it, sian and sophie from corrie being an example. it's all pretty standard. i will jump hop and skip the day i see my first entirely original gay SL. maybe 'gay' guy meets 'gay' guy - and some other factor other than sexuality comes into play. maybe love, maybe business. heck when did you ever see two gay guys who suspected they might be related only AFTER getting together!! *shockhorror* maybe one of them could be dying! or anorexic! or inter-faith (but not questioning themselves about being gay)?! or have a brother in prison for killing the mother of their new lover?! they want to be together but one of them gets buried alive/ abducted by aliens/an std. really - i'd take anything. and that's part of the reason - i LOVED lucas at first, cause he was entirely free from this 'gay boy meets 'straight' (*wink wink*) boy' SL for the longest time. and he was AWESOME.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 9:08:41 GMT -5
the thought of olli going straight back to christian makes me feel... ugh, i just feel so sad for him. i fully support OLIVER SABEL, 100% and that's why i keep coming back to this board. but how much wrong does christian have to do by him before people admit that they might be better off apart?! christian was wrong to sleep with jessica, and if he LOVES olli like he claims to - then he's wrong to sleep with theresa too. that's not the way you treat someone you love, no matter how many heartaches have come between you. i thought to blame jessica on the lily adoption thing was actually quite tasteless, and at first i put that down to the writers but it seems to have become a trait of christian mann himself of late. imagine if olli had been his wife, and had naturally produced a child, only for circumstances to mean they lost her later on. if christian had treated his 'wife' the way he treated olli i think people would be shocked and appalled. they both lost a child then. but christian didn't have a thought to spare for olli's grief, it remained about him, right up until he got naked on that sofa, and it still is some might argue. christian comes with so many provisos, olli has to care about him, olli has to show him attention above all others, olli has to promise to spend the rest of his life with just christian, blah blah blah blah before he even considers investing time and energy in their relationship. and that's fair enough, some people can't love in rash abandon the way olli does. but olli deserves someone who doesn't think of his as a comfy old doormat. he really hasn't done anything to deserve a relationship where he is always going to be second fiddle, always the one understanding, never the one understood, always providing love and comfort but left out in the cold when it comes to a mutual crisis. leave christian to some pretty but dim girl, who would happily settle for the basic sexual appreciation a relationship with christian entails. it's quite clear he's equally as at home with the girls as with the boys. and as long as he's centre stage i don't think christian minds who's in the supporting role. but please, please, please let olli have someone who adores him! who wants the things he wants! and who puts him first above everyone else! even if it's not forever, just so he can see what it's like to be on the other side, so if he ever finds himself in the same christian shaped boat he knows when he's being played for a fool.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 8:53:09 GMT -5
based on what? their names (luke/lucas)? their respective looks (tall&dark.v.small&blond)? the homophobic father with a violent streak (which wasn't exactly a revolutionary innovation when it came to gay SLing, before lucas and noah)? there are far more differences than similarities when you actually look at the story rather than the basic tableau. and in terms of story telling - i think its very tricky to compare american soap to european soap in general. american soap should be a genre all to itself. that's not meant as an insult either, just i've watched a few american soaps and was always struck by how much they are their own recognisable beast with their own rules and regulations. admittedly, gtst has a more heightened sense of reality than some other soaps, but it's still not quite like your average american offering.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 8:42:30 GMT -5
This breaking up crap is getting old already. As I said from the beginning, Edwin is Noah-ish and Lucas is Luke-ish. Noah kissed Luke just like Edwin kissed Lucas. Noah's father shot Luke and Edwin's father beat up Lucas. Edwin has already broken up with Lucas twice, just like Noah broke up with Luke. I hope they don't continue with this. It's never as good the second time around. I hope they don't continue with this. They started off so well and now it's, well, a bit boring at the moment. I hope they can bring it around. personally i think it's easy to compare the two based on superficialities. but i actually think gtst is completely different from luke and noah, i'm not going to start offending anyone. but i don't think you can say what gtst are doing with lucas and edwin is a complete rehash of luke and noah. and thank god it isn't.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 8:39:35 GMT -5
what is that if not blind devotion?! knowing you're father/mother/brother/sister is WRONG, and yet still going along with them simply because they're your family!? that doesn't make sense to me! what edwin is doing, in my opinion, is trying to preserve the heroic image of his father he has from childhood. he knows anton's done wrong, but he would rather try and justify that behaviour - even if it means the end of his and lucas's relationship - than confront the issue at hand. that is never healthy. and it asks far too much of your parents as well. sjoerd is more successful at being his own man - and it may have something to do with what anton said about their differing personalities. but even so, anton employs the same tactic on the both of them when he feels the need - ostracizing them from the family group, pointing out to them their faults, and then, at the last possible minute when they feel they have nowhere left to turn, and feel completely lost, he draws them back in to the comfort of the familial bosom - supposedly so they get to know where they're safe and where they're not. to a large extent the bowhuis boys police themselves, they know their own boundaries. but they do act out sometimes. and when they do anton makes sure they hear about it. i don't trust anton not to explode with rage next time something unpalatable is brought to his doorstep. maybe edwin will decide he wants play up, and be a bit like lucas, let go. i can't imagine anton's reaction to a different bloke in the house every day of the week being half as calm as janine's was. and if edwin ever decide to blatantly parade a one night stand around, i doubt anton would let it go. or try and understand where it was coming from. i like watching the bowhuis family too, if only to marvel at their confusing dynamic. i think bianca is the keystone to everyone's sanity in that family. without her i don't doubt sjoerd would be in some juvenile detention centre and edwin would be nearing a complete breakdown by the time he reached 25.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 7:59:00 GMT -5
stefan is FIT.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 7:58:39 GMT -5
I want Olli to have someone who truly loves him. Christian obviously does not. He is acting like Olli was some sort of passing phase. So let him do him and let Olli find someone who wants to be with him and only him. Right now I find Christian disgusting. I have been feeling that way for a while. Olli didn't leave Christian for no reason. Christian cheated. Now he is cheating again. He took off his ring so that pretty much tells me that Christian didn't care one bit. He just think Olli should get over his infidelities easily. Christian has been kissing girls all throughout Chrolli's relationship and now he is sleeping with them again. Olli needs to get someone who is really going to love him like he loves them. Christian obviously isn't that person. I want Christian to be happy elsewhere but he is doing wrong by Olli right now and I don't support him anymore with Olli. i agree wholeheartedly. they don't make eachother happy anymore. i want them both to find other relationships. although i would like the issue of christian's sexuality dealt with intelligently, instead of being insensitively swept under the carpet!!
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 7:11:21 GMT -5
i was just coming over here to say - i think it's because he finds out about this other kiss, otherwise why bother putting it in? as for the random guy lucas pulled, isn't the point of geek chic that it involves some element of chic-ness?! or did i miss the memo and those ridiculous clark kent glasses are all it takes?! looking at his 'dating' history though; weird eighties bloke from the elevator, psycho nurse marco - lucas will literally have a piece of whatevers going. there should be a pre-edwin lucas sandars in every town, picking up the slack, helping a stylistically challenged brother out of a sex-starved rut every now and then, just generally making no-hopers feel good about themselves with bleach-coloured-cocktails. personally edwin, i'll admit, has a right to be angry - if this is about the kiss, but so does lucas, that unexplained "i'm breaking up with you, but i don't feel like telling you why" has got to be arsehole tactic no 1. i think it comes from a very confused place, i genuinely think edwin didn't have a valid reason to break up with him he just thought it was the right thing to do. but even so, that's pretty spineless in itself. lucas was (painfully) misguided going out on the pull though. so i can see both their positions, i nthis particular fracas, if the kiss is the sore point. but i still think lucas has been very wronged by the bowhuises. as for anton's speech. oh god, joep is good - but i was reaching a bit for the sick bag. something about their relationship is just so bizarre to me. not in a grotesque way, i'm not suggesting anything untoward. i just don't understand that kind of blind devotion to a parent. i think it's something that has to be fostered - as in - i think you're parent(s) has to create that aura of absolute authority and rule, and mine certainly didn't - we had rules but it wasn't idolatrous worship and we were certainly allowed to ask questions instead of blindly doing what we think our parents would have thought was 'right'. i wanted to like what anton was saying but he's just so... i don't think i've ever seen him whole-heartedly apologise to lucas. he wronged a human being, nothing to do with his own precious son - he hurt another person and he should make recompense for that. and again today "i hurt lucas, but i hurt you as well." i think this family (and lucas) need to draw some distinctions. i think it would help if anton apologised t lucas as his own man outside of his relationship with edwin. then maybe lucas would feel better and by and by edwin as well?!
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 5:49:30 GMT -5
who are the most likely mallorca (male) cadidates to be gay do you think?
[just in case olli ends up there]
it's def not the priest, jan, or julia's current partner. it's either gonna be some waiter or some other background extra. looking at the pics, julia's son caught my eye but i think he will be straight and brought back for kim. he's way too young to play opposite jo without it looking a little unnatural.
i'm getting the impression olli is going to escape dusseldorf and the memories to heal himself. has a 'casual' holiday fling - and leaves thinking nothing more of it. only to be followed back to germany by this hot waiter, who really believes they had something special adn decided olli was worth the fight. so christian can see how much effort some people are willing to make to be with him.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 13, 2011 12:32:19 GMT -5
thanks mark
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Post by SF on May 13, 2011 6:34:07 GMT -5
seance is the word for contacting dead spirits like that. ouji board, requires a ouji board, and crystal ball gazing requires a crystal ball. a seance is just calling on the spirits of the dead.
i wish they could have a bigger break. i don't like anton being the one to change edwin's mind either.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 13, 2011 6:29:59 GMT -5
they were barely a C story yesterday. how many scenes has the legendary chroust given them this week? in the aftermath of the break up of this awesome, unbreakable supercouple?! i don't think it's much of a tribute, they've barely paid chrolli any attention. and if this is the bad before the good - i hope scripting this upcoming 'good' is not based on mathematical relativism - otherwise i fear there will be many disappointed fans. i think (and hope) someone was brave enough to realise they were JUST.NOT.WORKING anymore, as a couple. i think they're trying to put them to sleep in the kindest most gentle way they can. but very definitely destroying their relationship. the fact that they've taken up on such an old issue seems particularly relevant to me. christian's sexuality was what prevented them from having a relationship when they first got together, and it seems those issues were never fully resolved by either of them. it kind of negates all that time they've been together!
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SF
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Post by SF on May 12, 2011 21:28:51 GMT -5
i agree pru. edwin has made his choice. i wish he had time to see the consequences. but i think lucas will be back with him before you can click your fingers, thats a lucas development i don't like - the complete soft spot he has for edwin (that is, in my mind at least, inexplicable - because what does he get from edwin in return for his love and devotion?). i thought the shot of anton and edwin - just before lucas went in for his interview, when he looked over his shoulder, was really telling. i reckon if anything, he will realise from this break up, how precarious their relationship is. edwin will always be a daddy's boy first and foremost, before he has the strength to be a good boyfriend. i don't think lucas can force his way in between that. ideally, edwin would have enough time, on his own, to stew in his own juices - and come to the organic realisation that there is a point where you have branch out, fly the nest and form strong relationships outside of your immeadiate family. i always got the impression the bowhuises were very close and introspective as a unit, in an almost unhelpful way. from the moment when anton turned lucas and wiet away so they could get on with their little family tradition with the sausage rolls. you could easily transplant the bowhuis family in their original basic format into a horror flick as the weird new country family in town, who keep themselves to themselves and have a strange oppressive patriarch ruling the roost. it wouldn't take much of a stretch for me to believe anton as a violent and controlling psychopath. not that that's what the family are, and not that being close to your family is all that bizarre - just that the dynamics at play here (and in the early bianca/anton scenes involving the job stuff) seem unhealthy. that anton has so much control over edwin and edwin doesn't even realise it, is scary to me. i really hope edwin can break out a bit. but i have a feeling lucas might be playing second fiddle to anton when it comes to edwin's heartstrings more than once in the future. today proved that anton's hold is much too powerful to just break like that. on a lighter happier note, i could look at pip/wiet all day. she has the most beautiful eyes, and her hair and features just all compliment eachother in such a incredibly feminine way - she looks like an old fashioned movie star. i think i underestimated her as just sweet and a bit dopey at first, and her voice really downplays her beauty (not that her voice is horrible) but that's what makes her so striking to me, she doesn't hit you as beautiful when you first watch her on screen, but she really is. i couldn't find fault with any aspect of her appearance if i tried. but yeah, veronica lake hair, vivien leigh demeanor, doris day cuteness and of course big bette davis eyes. and i think that might just be the fluffiest thing i've ever written...
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SF
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Post by SF on May 12, 2011 19:49:08 GMT -5
rebecca is such a twit, wittering on about herself and her stupid fashion sketches when she must have some inkling at least how olli's feeling. she shouldn't need the hint before she acts like a friend. as for christian and the boxing, it could be a hint? maybe heart-related issues are what brings them back together. i'd hate that. i want them to be done for good now. but i think that might be a possibility anyway. christian at the door was weird. i couldn't get a read on it. and i still don't get why he's the one to run away to the stud farm - it's his flat - why the timidity? and that followed by the accusatory, you're the one who broke us up stuff?!? surely he should be glad that olli is showing he cares!?!? that was the proviso for him fighting for their relationship wasn't it? as long as olli still cares about him and them. i didn't see much fight.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 12, 2011 15:31:59 GMT -5
i don't see it as a competition either, but invariably, because it's an argument - it will be resolved with someone admitting fault and apologizing. one of them has to back down. and i just don't see how lucas has anything to apologise for. edwin may have his reasons for the way he's behaved, but i still think he's the one at fault in this particular disagreement.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 12, 2011 15:28:21 GMT -5
i completely respect what you're saying. but can i ask, who do you find more sympathetic? or do you just see them as equally messed up and around? i get why some people might still feel for edwin, i did in the beginning. but in the circumstances, after everything that's happened to lucas, i can't help but feel for him more. i think his situation is the more unhappy, as he has much less power and has been the victim of much more abuse. and so i want the writers to craft an outcome in his favour. where edwin, if not 100% admitting fault, can see that lucas hasn't done anything wrong himself. anything that warrants any kind of ill-treatment.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 12, 2011 14:46:24 GMT -5
i don't know what the writers intended effect is though? surely we're not meant to feel sorry for edwin?! i'm praying for a transformation. a development. because i'm really struggling to understand why lucas thinks it's worth all the bother. he's hardly desperate. and he's older than edwin (i still think ferry and raynor do a brilliant job in showing the age difference which seems bigger when you're a teenager dating a 21 y/o or vice versa). so i really don't get why he's putting up with this bratty, changeable, stubborn behaviour. edwin is really very emotionally immature, he's completely dependent on and absorbed by his mummy and (especially) daddy still. to the exclusion of everyone else.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 12, 2011 14:16:44 GMT -5
rikki has always had a real warmth to her character. she reminds me a lot of bianca, which is why i think sjoerd is so enthralled by her. edwin is an absolute twat today and tomorrow apparently. a big, big part of me is wishing that lucas won't go back to him when he comes crawling.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 12, 2011 5:51:59 GMT -5
also thanks mark for the recap.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 12, 2011 5:51:23 GMT -5
roderick - your post isn't worth a reply. so...
but i'm convinced now that wiet deserves someone like noud. i know nina's got problems but she's a bit of a cow to be honest. i still sort of like her. but, i just want to give poor old wiet a hug.
i almost wish they could split noud in half for nina and wiet, cos they're both make quite nice couples. which i guess they're kind of going to try and do if my instincts about the upcoming spoilers are right!!
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SF
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Post by SF on May 11, 2011 19:09:20 GMT -5
NO!!! i love the hair. this is going to sound awful but, usually really long hair (and esp ponytails) on young guys makes me think of poor hygiene OR mind-blowing arrogance and vanity. but he makes it look effortlessly good. it makes me wish i'd grown my hair out when i could have got away with it. it looks edgy but quite smart at the same time. its funny, they're all very attractive - but guido sticks out. not AS much on the show, so i don't know if it's the way he dresses or the way the wardrobe people dress him, as sjoerd - but yeah, he looks good with the hair!!
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