SF
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Post by SF on May 19, 2011 15:30:16 GMT -5
seriously, the writers need to leave deniz alone now. he's one step away from becoming a caricature of himself. how can one person make so many mistakes without learning from any of them? they use and abuse the limits of possibility when it comes to deniz. i STILL don't believe he's a total idiot. but they've practically composed a step by step guide in how to shake off every single loyal follower with deniz and roman (and i don't mean followers of the couple, but fans of the individual characters). there's NO WAY (imo) that they can rise from the ashes of this last betrayal. i want them to let it rest too. sometimes, a relationship goes through too much to ever be healthy. this is one of those occasions. break them up!!!
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SF
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Post by SF on May 19, 2011 14:40:02 GMT -5
olli wears some fucking terrible clothes. its like he has a 14 year older bieber fan do his shopping for him! what's with the over-zealous colour blocking? or the tacky novelty feature (here: the failed sailor-chic white piping) on every single jacket he owns!? poor jo can't catch a break with the wardrobe department. i much prefer him clothes-less anyway.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 19, 2011 11:20:04 GMT -5
thank you mark for the subtitles and for the time and effort that goes into subtitling a daily show like this! i'm pleased that people liked the episode and are happy that lucas and edwin found their way (with more than a little nudging from anton) back to eachother. however, i like other people don't think edwin's explanation has eschewed all of my doubts about this relationship. aside from the obvious logical flaw dusky pointed out - how can this "if you love someone it has to be unconditional" argument stand as a two-way thing? surely lucas could have answered, but if you love me edwin, then why couldn't you promise to tell the truth at the interviews? why must lucas prioritize edwin over his desire for justice, but lucas falls by the wayside when it comes to edwin's family? maybe there is a tier system to edwin's idea and familial love trumps romantic love trumps platonic love trumps lesser friendship?! hopefully (and not hopefully) if some tragedy were to befall the sanders family that posed a conflict of interest for lucas, edwin could extrapolate on and allow the implementation of his idea so that lucas is free to put other people ahead of his boyfriend and act in the interest counter to whatever tide edwin is swimming in? sorry, i'm trying not to be too caustic when it comes to edwin - but sometimes i just want to shake him until all his brain cells line up and he can see the hypocrisy of his explanation for the break up. i do like him, but i want him to truly VALUE lucas, and at the moment i'm not 100% sure he knows exactly what he nearly just let slip through his fingers out of sheer bloody-mindedness. but yeah, i like that he actually said something even if what he was saying annoyed me a little bit.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 18, 2011 20:14:48 GMT -5
the reason i'm upset is because there is (for me) a difference between marriage and a long term relationship, and christian (and sometimes olli, with all the baby shite) haven't honoured this. when you enter into a relationship, at first, it's about how being in that relationship makes you feel. if you're happy, then you hope it lasts and that the other person feels the same. but if you're unhappy, things fall apart quickly. when you marry someone, whatever religion, or not you are, it's a promise you make to honour that person above all others. you stop putting yourself first, and concerning yourself with only how you are feeling. yes there are low lows, but the fact that you stay committed and emotionally faithful to the person you've married, makes it different from any relationship where you can just walk away. christian and olli aren't putting eachother first, and looking back, i'm not sure they ever were. even when they took their vows. emotionally, they are still both very concerned with their own well-being. and the preservation of their own individual happiness, or in a difficult circumstance like this (with christian giving up the fight for his marriage and taking up with theresa) some semblance of sanity. the problem with putting someone else first, is that you have to give a lot of yourself to make it work. and it takes someone special to make that sacrifice for. there is no denying christian and olli have passion and love and intensity - especially in the beginning, they had all that. but i'm still not convinced they 'fit' and now they have got married and its fallen apart, i don't know if it can be recovered.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 18, 2011 19:51:09 GMT -5
oh... how long has that been hiding there?! and why am i so crap at youtube?! thank you!
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SF
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Post by SF on May 18, 2011 19:28:54 GMT -5
they're not going to upload to youtube tonight are they? i don't know why i don't just give up after one check, it's not like my dutch is that fluent
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SF
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Post by SF on May 18, 2011 2:41:10 GMT -5
congrats mark.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 17, 2011 16:18:56 GMT -5
maybe you could PM the poster if you genuinely feel a post has been composed to deliberately antagonise? to give them a chance to clarify and perhaps absolve themselves of any wrongdoing? rather that than bring it publicly on the board and make it uncomfortable (and off topic) for other posters. that is of course, just a suggestion - to make things run a little smoother.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 17, 2011 16:13:41 GMT -5
Right, no bashing whatsoever! And no contempt for us retarded peasants, us lot, us simple-minded people, who will be made "happy" by a couple of Ik hou van je, and for whom "that will be enough"... i wasn't going to say anything because i really don't want to get involved in an argument - when i'm so grateful to be able to have somewhere to discuss shows like this and i really enjoy this community and the varied opinions on it. but i really think it's unfair to draw specific implications out of certain posts. just because someone says they aren't happy with this outcome, whilst other posters might be, doesn't mean they think of those other posters as 'peasants'. that's such an inflammatory term. and it infers a sense of self-importance and superiority on the posters that wasn't originally there in their posts.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 17, 2011 6:13:45 GMT -5
god! i just realised who the 'fling' looks a tiny bit like - guy burnet who played craig (of john paul and craig fame) on hollyoaks!!
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SF
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Post by SF on May 17, 2011 3:09:40 GMT -5
me too pru. also i'm tired of the adage that soap physics doesn't allow for sensible writing. that is by and large not true, and my experience is - the closer a script sticks to reality (even while whole villages are blowing up around you, or buses are exploding, or people are falling off cliffs into the sky with a sinister gloved hand behind them), as long as it preserves the human element and rational - anything can be emotive. this mess is anything but emotive. at least to me. because what man *cough* (boy) would 'behave' the way edwin is behaving?! it just doesn't ring true. okay fair enough - you guys have managed to envisage a scenario where edwin might very well continue to snub his (ex)boyfriend after being proved wrong about the interviews, but problem is, for me - that's just not supported so far in the script (maybe i'll change my mind when i see the next lot of subs but looking at the shortie, i doubt it). why was edwin nodding along to anton's first sensible bit of dialogue in years? only to turn around and drop lucas even more humiliatingly in front of his sister?! in the long term, they may decide to blame this on edwin's 'internal conflict' and youthful ineptitude - but if they want me to buy that, they have to make sensible choices when it comes to the basic, short term human interaction.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 17, 2011 3:02:32 GMT -5
he doesn't look much older with a beard. isn't he only 20 or something in real life??!
it's hardly much of a stretch. bless him.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 16, 2011 19:02:32 GMT -5
now HE is beautiful. more my taste than thore s. i'd never go home if i was olli.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 16, 2011 17:47:51 GMT -5
i know marks going to sub, but does anyone know if they got put back together today?
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SF
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Post by SF on May 16, 2011 17:37:22 GMT -5
and also, can i just add, jo's got an amazing body.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 16, 2011 17:34:51 GMT -5
at first, the last little bit of christian fan left in me piped up (the bit that's still concerned with looks over substance), and i was thinking "jeez that's a bit of a downgrade" but thinking about it - i'm actually quite pleased. maybe if olli gets some time with someone less 'sought after' - a little more appreciative of him, it might work in his favour and give him some of his self esteem back. 3 years with christian has turned olli from a vibrant, fun, young and exciting person into a predictable doormat of self deprecation and sacrifice. i want someone to come along who thinks "WOW - how lucky am i to be spending time with olli!!" he deserves it!!!
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SF
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Post by SF on May 16, 2011 15:28:33 GMT -5
marriage/engagement would be one flight of fancy too far for me. there is no way lucas would agree to marry edwin unless he had his brain replaced like some stepford wife esque character. i wouldn't be able to watch. i know marriage might have got a lot higher profile for gay couples - but come on, lucas is what, 21? and a bit of a player (in spirit at least) and edwin's practically a baby still, as his behaviour this week has shown. i highly doubt they'd get engaged - and if they did i would put it down to crap writing and tune out.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 16, 2011 9:16:30 GMT -5
interesting interpretation, only i don't see any hard evidence of that in the actual show. and i don't think this particular crisis is likely to be resolved with edwin taking the lion's share of the blame. maybe if the relationship had been more of a two way street, up to this point, i'd be more inclined to believe that this was a comedy of errors or a farcical misunderstanding that could be easily resolved with a truthful heart-to-heart. and maybe if edwin hadn't so harshly rejected lucas after the interviews had been conducted.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 16, 2011 8:36:52 GMT -5
wow - really?!
i don't like edwin at all..
i'm sorry, but especially after finding out there will be no further hearing his first action should be to run out and find lucas and apologise for his mistake. basic logic would surely dictate that if lucas had made any ferocious accusation, there would be further investigation?!
wow edwin's relationship with his dad is even more screwed up than i thought. to completely freeze someone out, to sacrifice the most true relationship he's ever had, so he doesn't have to make a choice that isn't even really there anymore (well, it is, because i have no doubt anton's still an arsehole, but for arguments sake - it's certainly not bearing down on him anymore) is just really odd writing.
i know it's futile but my wish now would be that lucas doesn't take him back and edwin is launched out into the big scary world of casual dating, where he's forever trailing in the shadow of lucas and when he does manage to get someone to go home with him, anton wrecks it by his mere presence.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 15, 2011 9:59:21 GMT -5
The problem, if like this I can't even believe that Chrolli is any bit superior to Coco/Christian, what reason do I have to believe in Chrolli? To be just as not worthwhile as C&C is hardly a commendation for Chrolli. I would think that Christian would be slightly more for somebody he claimed was the love of his life and was together with for three years. (and before anybody tells me its a soap: so what. VL can and has done it before with other couples. what I expect from Chrolli is at least that.) I'm sorry, but just two hot bodies together in not enough to make me interested in a soap couple. Even chemistry is pointless if the couple is vile for example or boring. Either Chrolli as a couple have something special. Or they haven't and I judge them by normal superficial soap criteria (is their story entertaining/amusing etc). The problem is if I remove all past loyalty and look at them just without any side bonuses, I honestly think that right now Chrolli are not that great or entertaining. Like, I hate Helandi, but at least we got fun stuff like Helena yelling at Andi or punching Jessica occasionally. If Chrolli don't have anything for the soul (like a romantic story that ties it all together), then imo right now they don't have much in the sense of entertainment value either. [and that in addition to them having been already pretty boring together for example during the Lilly story] Christian has always been pretty boring with women and I doubt that another retread is gonna be very interesting from a soap POV. Olli crazy download spiral is at least something we haven't seen recently and it could be good depending on the acting. Or it could also be very drab and self important and boring to watch. Particularly if the writers have held nothing special that should convince me to have an emotional tie to them as characters with a long history. I for one need at least the semblance of a good story and not just two hot bods together. If that is the only outlook, why shouldn't I instead root for Chrolli to leave the show, Jo and Thore to take their talents elsewhere and the show to instead do a new gay storyline with other characters (like Timo and Emilio lets say) since the writers are obviously only good at writing the early periods of a relationship. How can a getting back together story (especially a potentially rushed one) work if the writers seem to be on the trail to take out any soul and continuity out of the couple. If it just might as well be two new characters and I don't even know whether I like these new ones? Is that really how want to be? That the writers can throw any crap at the Chrollifans because the Chrollifans are so superficial/have no standards they will take anything? Because that's certainly not the kind of fan I want to be. I somebody you loved (Chrolli) was for example in an abusive relationship (the bad bad writing situation), wouldn't you want them to be free and root for them to get away from this stituation? For me, the only scene since the story started that was to me undilutedly good was the Chrolli interaction at the Hagen/Marlene wedding. I have some hope that the "locked in together" bits might be good, but I have worry since a lot of other recent bits havebeen not so great as hoped for. Next hope is that there will be something good in the accident story (like Christian helping) and that it won't just be swallowed up by the more dominant Helena story. I LOVE THIS POST
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 12:31:08 GMT -5
no i don't mind that he's silent or thoughtful or less expressive than lucas - i just think it would be useful to the viewer to have some kind of background to that. i can accept why lucas is the way he is, because i feel like we know the character a bit more, and we've seen a consistent person develop and react. edwin swings with the wind. if you get what i mean. yes, he's thoughtful and brooding - but when he makes decisions, they seem to come out of nowhere, because so little time is devoted to him as a character. in the episode in between valentines day and him admitting to lucas he was in love with him i was CERTAIN i must have missed an episode because it just seemed like a bolt from the blue. i can't sympathise with edwin because i don't understand his motivation - and it's not because he is a nasty person, or cruel or mean - but purely because the writers have neglected to give him enough time to come together as a character. it's not lack of screentime either. it's just how they use the screentime. the only people edwin opens up to are; bianca, anton and sjoerd (and to a much lesser extent lucas and wiet) but there are never any crafty insights into his character, like there have been with sjoerd. so far the main characterisation of edwin is against other people. he's not like anton, sjoerd or lucas. he's just 'different'. it's hard because ideally after one of his brooding silences he'd come out of them with some kind of resolution or at least a little clarity. but he just stumbles from one predicament to the next with no development. i always imagine it like this; if you were to put two lucas-esque characters in a relationship on the screen, it would be crazy and it wouldn't necessarily work, and it would probably end up annoying the fuck out of you, going in circles like a bike with only one stabilizer but there would be something to watch. if you tried duplicating edwins it just wouldn't be television. it would be like watching paint dry. i really truly think there needs to be some 'development' where edwin's character is concerned - there needs to be more behind him than what they've already shown. otherwise why would lucas bother?
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 11:31:24 GMT -5
on a side note i agree that edwin will have a hard time reconciling relationships with his pristine image of his father. and zathras, despite the fact i, like you, dislike anton a lot - i can't really go along with edwin being all goodness and virtue in his attempts to hold onto both his relationship with his father and with lucas. i agree with what i *think* you're getting at about his character. there is a lot lacking, he is still a blank canvas. but it's got so far down the line, i'm starting to see the mystery not so much as A MYSTERY (as in a noun) that can be solved, rather it's just mystery. as in a personality trait. but not even mystery, it's sort of an absence of opinion, or of purpose. edwin is neither bad nor good in my eyes, he doesn't have the drive to be a positive or negative, he hovers somewhere in the middle. much like when he used to wink at lucas one moment and then send him packing the next. there isn't any morality to his actions either way because they sort of come from nowhere. i don't know if i stopped making sense in that last paragraph. what i mean to say is, i thought edwin would care enough about lucas to show some personality, forthrightness, and purpose. even if it meant bad things happened in their relationship like now. but edwin's decision making process is like a door flapping open and shut in a breeze. and THAT'S what bothers me. i want him to have the strength of character to show lucas he can be a proper boyfriend to him, even if that means standing up to his father and staying there, instead of backing down the moment the pressures off OR telling his boyfriend, honestly, that he can't because he cares too much about his father to upset the boat. i want more characterisation from edwin.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 11:13:59 GMT -5
i never saw an episode of guiding light, but i heard a lot about it's combustion towards the end. i always got the impression there was a kind of competing element amongst the american soaps to outdo eachother in plot rather than substance. we get that over here as well, every year there is some epic disaster that befalls the entire community, and the soaps will run at it full pelt trying to undermine the 'epicness' of their rivals. but on a day to day level, there are the very human stories that make it more enjoyable. i kind of prefer the filler to the actual 'high drama'. of course, it's soap - they're never going to be 100% accurate, but i think A LOT of people take A LOT of comfort from watching corrie and eastenders and lots of teens/students grow up on HO. i think the australian soaps are similar - there is a lot of melodrama but the focus is very small and very human in scale. although the setting is completely different. i see some similarities with gtst and that british/australian soap ethic - but then i do admit that soaps like gtst, and VL in germany do glamour and intrigue perhaps a lot better than we do - and in that way they are certainly (at the very least) more comparable with the american soaps. but again, where they differ i think it's the issue of scale. i don't know how you could make a 'soap opera' by british/european standards for a nation as widely dispersed and variable as america. if one person relates to it, you can almost guarantee someone else will feel it is near alien in its references and signifiers. that's why i think 'soap opera' is a different term for americans than it is for europeans. although it is important to note the differences in european soap, anyone who has ever seen a french 'soap' (if such a thing truly exists) will know you can't put it comfortably in the same bracket as something like corrie. the only accurate definition i can think of that encompasses all of soap (in all it's international representations) is that it is made and unmade by national identity. even that is tricky. but it is interesting to look at. i really think it's entirely fascinating and maybe in years to come people will look at the genre academically and see what assessment can be made about our generation from the way it was developed. a lot of important thinkers had a lot to say about television in general in the twentieth century, i don't doubt a lot can be taken from an objective view of what we were watching that says more about us than it does about the shows themselves. it's very interesting.
(sorry off topic, will shut up).
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 10:30:59 GMT -5
i mean when has christian ever given something up, exclusively for olli?! other than on his wedding day, when you would hope he was doing it, not just for olli but himself as well?! (although i doubt christian ever, really wanted to be married). what about boxing? It was only is his dream of a liftime. You think that they are not working anymore and they're better apart, we just happen to disagree. To each his own i'm just guessing that olli wouldn't have cared one way or another whether or not christian boxed if it wasn't for the fact it was killing him. and christian knew it. if you're talking about earlier, christian didn't have to give up boxing and made that statement when he knew it was the last thing olli would have him do after putting up with months of that wolfe bloke. indeed. to each his own. i just want to clarify, i far from hate christian, or think olli deserves 'better' - more he deserves different.
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SF
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Post by SF on May 14, 2011 10:22:55 GMT -5
It is devotion, but it’s not blind because they see the wrong. Edwin does have an image of his father that he wants to preserve, and it’s not that hard to comprehend IMO. Edwin will have to reconcile his individuality (and other relationships) with his love for his family, which is something that he doesn’t know how to do yet. It’s sad to say, but it may take him losing some things or some people, or failing to see how he’s losing them for him to really get to that point. And Anton is going to have to adapt to all of that as well if he doesn’t want to one day completely lose – not the love in itself because I don’t see it happening really but – his family. Anton is a very authoritative figure and does play on his pull on his sons, but I don’t think it is maliciously-rooted manipulation; he’s still to learn that authority is not the only way to make his sons see right from wrong, and Bianca being the one to rein her family in the most effectively is a good example of that. Anton has miles to go and I don't doubt that he'll screw up again, but the cracks have been there. Most of what is going on is far from healthy, but still very interesting and enjoyable when looking at the whole dynamics for me. sorry, i'm just gonna say - that to me is semantics. see just as easily as you can say it isn't blind devotion because edwin SEES what his father does wrong, i could say it is 'blind' devotion because edwin choses to blinker himself to the truth - and limply follow wherever and whatever instruction his father might dictate. he has become so 'blind' to the world around him, he acts erroneously out of a presumption of what 'right' behaviour should be, a presumption anton has effused through both his sons - so much so that they don't know where their own opinions end and their father's begin. hence the confusion and not being able to tell lucas why he wanted to end their relationship. he knows his father is wrong, he knows that's what lucas believes, he knows lucas won't except 'anton-speak' as a reason for their break up, but truly that's all he has to offer. so he remains silent instead. in many ways he's the whole package; deaf, dumb AND blind. figuratively speaking. and beyond a shadow of a doubt devoted to anton and the preservation of his morality. it wasn't meant as an insult at all. but i must admit the few i followed regularly 'the bold and the beautiful' and 'days of our lives' (a long, long time ago when i was living in south america, pre-pre-pre noah and luke) i did wonder how they could jizz so much money and still have SLs that seemed like a child could have produced them. there was just NOTHING empathetic about them at all. which is what got me into soap as a genre in the first place. the idea that it was relatable, regular drama - beamed into homes nationwide daily and having such a widespread affect. i found that american soaps were more about being ludicrous and far-fetched for the purposes of entertainment than they were kitchen sink dramas. that's why, although i am very new to gtst, i get the impression it is a closer cousin to the american soaps than the british soaps we get over here. but it clearly still maintains a foot firmly in the door of family, and truth and operates on a smaller scale than the american soaps.
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