Simone
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Post by Simone on Apr 4, 2008 14:33:52 GMT -5
I still think that the DeRo love scenes are a bit better, or rather more natural. I'm guessing at least partly due to DG's experience. C/O play up the sweetness much more (which is totally okay for the type of storyline they are doing), while I think DeRo has a better balance between sweetness and passion. I agree. DG is a good actor and Igor turns in some solid performances in their scenes together. Deniz and Roman are more captivating bringing the sweetness, romance and passion with the actors bring a lot of emotions and physicality. It is the small moments of touching and hesitancy that makes Deniz and Roman's relationship seem more real. Ugh, I hate that liked them so much.
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Gabi
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Post by Gabi on Apr 4, 2008 15:08:12 GMT -5
What are the ratings are for both soaps? Do they air at the same time? The ratings for all ufa productions are published daily: www.ufa.de/index.php/Produktionen/MedienforschungAWZ is remarkably successful. While VL is, with the only exception of Chris/Olli, just some standard soap and pretty boring if you ask me, AWZ is different in many ways. The actors are better. AWZ has that special sophisticated sense of humour you usually won't find in soaps - I'm not sure if those of you who are no native german speakers get the subtility and it's hard to translate. Axel, Simone, Richard, Jenny, Ingo and Roman, of course, are priceless. There are little drama movies like the fantastic "Mercy Seat" (my all time fave, as everyone knows meanwhile, I'm afraid ) or today's episode when Nadja loses her baby. Chris/Olli is pretty good, but in general VL just can't compete.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 4, 2008 15:19:09 GMT -5
I think at the moment VL suffers because they wrote out a lot of characters and and brought on new characters and new storylines.
I like C&O and I actually look forward to see how Olivia/Tanja/Sarah will play out, but both Judith's harem and Sebastian/Lydia are just so boring to me and they get heaps and heaps of screentime.
I think the characters on AWZ are more snappy, but I find myself unable to care about them. Meanwhile I *like* Olivia, I like Gregor, I like Charlie, I even like Judith in connection to C&O and I find myself actually caring for them and wondering what their storylines will be.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 4, 2008 15:34:25 GMT -5
I still think that the DeRo love scenes are a bit better, or rather more natural. I'm guessing at least partly due to DG's experience. C/O play up the sweetness much more (which is totally okay for the type of storyline they are doing), while I think DeRo has a better balance between sweetness and passion. I agree. I just watched today's Ollian and it was good. The actors are very top notch in the kissing department as well - no ducking from any of the actors in the intimacy scenes - but DG & ID seem to bring a little more *something* to the table, I can't put my finger on exactly what. It's a certain intangible quality. It could be the tenderness level but there is something about DeRo that can be sweet, passionate or pure naked emotion that is very fluid and natural. Dude, I fanwank that already. OR that he's fantasizing about Roman which is why he's so annoyed with him when he sees him. SEX ATTACK proved that [little] Deniz goes up in flames very easily when he is near Roman. As for the spoilers, my only problem is they seem soooooooooooooo draaaaaaaaawn oooooooout.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 4, 2008 15:46:37 GMT -5
I really think the difference is lust/desire. C&O play sweetness and they play need (particularly Christian in the most recent scene). I kinda jokingly say that it's a bit like watching two 5 year olds go at it. It's adorable. But Deniz/Roman do a better job of mixing it with sexual comfortableness (and I do think that DG probably contributes quite a bit to "keeping it real" in this area). Kinda like they are the more grown up version.
Again, I think both things have their upsides and downsides. I have linked both DeRo and Ollian clips to some people and some thought that Ollian were more accessible to them. And you could argue that it fits their story with Christian just fumbling his way to his sexual identity.
Anyway, both do it for me. But this is what I think makes them different.
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Simone
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Post by Simone on Apr 4, 2008 16:25:15 GMT -5
Gabi, please describe the "Mercy Seat."
I think that Thore and Jo have gotten better as this storyline has progressed, but Deniz and Roman have the "it" that all of the great soap couples have which includes charisma, solid acting, humor and chemistry helped along with good writing. Igor and Dennis are clearly have the talent and commitment to give their characters a tenderness that real lovers have when they are together.
AWZ struck gold with Roman and Deniz. I know that soap couples can't stay together or they get boring, but I wish that AWZ had been more innovative and introduced another gay character to come between Deniz and Roman and not use Vanessa. Maybe an old love of Roman's or someone new into Deniz' life.
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Gabi
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Post by Gabi on Apr 4, 2008 16:50:08 GMT -5
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 4, 2008 16:51:43 GMT -5
I think that Thore and Jo have gotten better as this storyline has progressed, but Deniz and Roman have the "it" that all of the great soap couples have which includes charisma, solid acting, humor and chemistry helped along with good writing. Igor and Dennis are clearly have the talent and commitment to give their characters a tenderness that real lovers have when they are together. AWZ struck gold with Roman and Deniz. I know that soap couples can't stay together or they get boring, but I wish that AWZ had been more innovative and introduced another gay character to come between Deniz and Roman and not use Vanessa. Maybe an old love of Roman's or someone new into Deniz' life. AWZ totally struck gold and I think they do realize it but they don't know how to write the fallout relating to the character's differences or personality conflicts well. Like we all totally get why Deniz is with Vanessa right now but when you watch them, it's just painful and the longer it goes on, the more frustrating it becomes because it's just circles right now. DeVa has gone on too long in my opinion without real problems or issues being brought up. There have been so many red flags regarding Deniz that Vanessa is blissfully ignoring that it's just bizarre. She's usually a smart and intuitive girl yet she is completely blind to the true situation of her relationship with Deniz. The KW 20 stuff is promising in terms of showing some potential DeVa strife but it's still where it seems like there has been no decision or there is a lack of direction as to how to delay the DeRo reunion plausibly or in an entertaining manner in the meantime. There are so many times we can watch Deniz claim to be in love with Vanessa, Roman rejected - after a delay - by Deniz or Vanessa be willingly clueless before you end up having to watch the new clips with a bottle of liquor nearby. Mercy Seat is when Deniz admitted what happened in Munich and that he was gay. I need to actually watch the clip cause that is all I know about it.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 4, 2008 16:55:35 GMT -5
Ouch. Liedvergewaltigung. (sorry that just happens to be one of my favorite songs and it really shouldn't get to be raped by any soap opera; it's just wrong)
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Simone
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Posts: 276
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Post by Simone on Apr 4, 2008 16:55:45 GMT -5
Thanks, Gabi. I have seen that musical montage before. Now I understand what you mean by drama movies.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 4, 2008 17:01:05 GMT -5
BTW, aren't there any new DeRo spoilers? Shouldn't the first new episode summaries arrive any time now? Or were there new ones, just without any DeRo stuff.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 4, 2008 17:05:33 GMT -5
BTW, aren't there any new DeRo spoilers? Shouldn't the first new episode summaries arrive any time now? Or were there new ones, just without any DeRo stuff. There is one but it's DeVa and I haven't had it translated. I can send you the German version and if you want to translate it, I can post it.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 4, 2008 17:06:22 GMT -5
Sure. Translations no problem.
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Post by harmonium on Apr 5, 2008 4:10:36 GMT -5
Did you check out the spoilers? I wouldn't say they're friends and enemies is too strong a word. Roman is still hostile towards Deniz and Deniz is wary of /annoyed with Roman. But oooooh, the sparks are still there. I think the problem with the storyline now is there are big gaps between new scenes along with a slow pace. Like TIIC have DeVa together with Deniz repeatedly (& uncovincingly) saying how much he is in love with Vanessa but no one outside of Vanessa is buying it meanwhile Roman is like a raging b*tch every time he's near Deniz longer than 30 seconds. Deniz comes off as either stupid, egotistical or A HOT MESS because he's sticking to being with Vanessa but you can tell his heart not to mention his loins are not even remotely invested then he gets near Roman and you can see Deniz is still drawn to him. The writers are moving at a plodding pace that either needs to speed up or they need to bring in another person to this story to spice it up (I vote for a man for Roman) cause while I like the moments I see, it needs to change cause it's just going in circles at this point with none of the 3 characters involved looking good at all. I feel like TIIC are trying to delay the inevitable DeRo reunion but they have no idea how to do it in a way that won't turn people off in the mean time. I haven't checked the spoilers yet. I was too busy following Ollie/Christian's storyline that I can't be bothered with Deniz/Roman's storyline. And I agree to the fact that the writers are doing a really bad job at presenting the love triangle currently. A moment you see Roman snapping at Deniz, and the next moment you see Roman stooping low to get Deniz back. It's very contradicting. And the sight of seeing the romantic-less Deniz/Vanessa together just turns me off BIG TIME. And also I thought they pretty much drifted away from the main focus of the love triangle by introducing the current storyline of Deniz becoming a model etc. They haven't truly clear things up between the 3, following the dinner. I find it very incoherent. I wonder how are the writers gonna continue with the messy storyline. I hope they better give us a better explanation of what's gonna happen. If not, I'm gonna boycott this series.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 5, 2008 5:34:27 GMT -5
Did you check out the spoilers? I wouldn't say they're friends and enemies is too strong a word. Roman is still hostile towards Deniz and Deniz is wary of /annoyed with Roman. But oooooh, the sparks are still there. I think the problem with the storyline now is there are big gaps between new scenes along with a slow pace. Like TIIC have DeVa together with Deniz repeatedly (& uncovincingly) saying how much he is in love with Vanessa but no one outside of Vanessa is buying it meanwhile Roman is like a raging b*tch every time he's near Deniz longer than 30 seconds. Deniz comes off as either stupid, egotistical or A HOT MESS because he's sticking to being with Vanessa but you can tell his heart not to mention his loins are not even remotely invested then he gets near Roman and you can see Deniz is still drawn to him. The writers are moving at a plodding pace that either needs to speed up or they need to bring in another person to this story to spice it up (I vote for a man for Roman) cause while I like the moments I see, it needs to change cause it's just going in circles at this point with none of the 3 characters involved looking good at all. I feel like TIIC are trying to delay the inevitable DeRo reunion but they have no idea how to do it in a way that won't turn people off in the mean time. I haven't checked the spoilers yet. I was too busy following Ollie/Christian's storyline that I can't be bothered with Deniz/Roman's storyline. And I agree to the fact that the writers are doing a really bad job at presenting the love triangle currently. A moment you see Roman snapping at Deniz, and the next moment you see Roman stooping low to get Deniz back. It's very contradicting. And the sight of seeing the romantic-less Deniz/Vanessa together just turns me off BIG TIME. And also I thought they pretty much drifted away from the main focus of the love triangle by introducing the current storyline of Deniz becoming a model etc. They haven't truly clear things up between the 3, following the dinner. I find it very incoherent. I wonder how are the writers gonna continue with the messy storyline. I hope they better give us a better explanation of what's gonna happen. If not, I'm gonna boycott this series. It is rather incoherent at the moment, isn't it? There is just very little flowing well and things seem to be jumping around without much resolution. The writers have some sold actors thus they need to do justice by them like giving them good material. I was glad to see DeRo interaction earlier this week, but it's sad that 90% was Roman flying off the handle at Deniz and Deniz being... well goofy or a mess. The lack of direction in the meantime is frustrating and the writers need to tighten things up. It's like a month before we'll get some solid triangle type scenes to analyze or enjoy.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 5, 2008 6:03:54 GMT -5
The thing with the current confusing situation is that there are very few possible explanations:
- There is no plan. The writers have no idea what they are writing. It's either completely random or they really thought it would be a fun diversion for DeRo. - It is intentional. Roman will be proven right in the end and everything he hurls out at Deniz will in the end turn out to be true. (as you said, Roman has problems expressing his emotions properly and would rather yell at Deniz that he is selfhating; Deniz will eventually realize that and acknowledge that Roman was right all along) - They brought Deniz on specifically to be Roman's love interest, but then Igor became popular and the writers thought it would be a "waste" to make him gay/only Roman's boyfriend
I don't favor any of these options. I even find the last one too conspiracy heavy, particularly since the show isn't letting Deniz off the hook regarding his gay status. Either way, it's all very confusing.
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Simone
Junior Member
Posts: 276
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Post by Simone on Apr 5, 2008 8:26:24 GMT -5
Lola, I'm a soap cynic so I have no problem believing your third option is probably correct. This new modeling story features Igor. Gives him more screen time, while Dennis is relegated to sidekick status. All the indications that Deniz is still attracted to Roman may have been put in to appease fans who are unhappy that he has suddenly become straight. I go back and forth about whether we are seeing a triangle between Roman, Deniz, and Vanessa or a gradual phasing out of Deniz's homosexuality.
Despite what the writer told Gabi, if they think that Deniz plays better as the straight guy, then his relationship with Roman may become a thing of the past. However, if the fans continue to be vocal about their displeasure about Deniz return to straighthood and his pairing with Vanessa isn't as popular as the writers' hoped, then maybe Roman and Deniz reunite eventually, in true soap form shortly before Igor leaves the show. Who knows.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 5, 2008 10:41:11 GMT -5
Lola, I'm a soap cynic so I have no problem believing your third option is probably correct. This new modeling story features Igor. Gives him more screen time, while Dennis is relegated to sidekick status. All the indications that Deniz is still attracted to Roman may have been put in to appease fans who are unhappy that he has suddenly become straight. I go back and forth about whether we are seeing a triangle between Roman, Deniz, and Vanessa or a gradual phasing out of Deniz's homosexuality. Despite what the writer told Gabi, if they think that Deniz plays better as the straight guy, then his relationship with Roman may become a thing of the past. However, if the fans continue to be vocal about their displeasure about Deniz return to straighthood and his pairing with Vanessa isn't as popular as the writers' hoped, then maybe Roman and Deniz reunite eventually, in true soap form shortly before Igor leaves the show. Who knows. If they think that, they're blind or drunk. Deniz has zero chemistry with Vanessa and he had zero chemistry with Nina either meanwhile he has tons of chemistry with Roman even during this stupid storyline twist of sorts. I can sometimes be a cynic too about soaps (hello ATWT!) but I look at this situation and think they'd have to be deeply, DEEPLY stupid to think Deniz plays better as a straight guy given what has been shown since he's been in town. Ok German folks, I know the when DeVa first started there was a lot of anger on the boards I went to about TIIC trying to make Deniz straight and put him with Vanessa romantically. Are the majority of people buying in to DeVa now or do they still want the relationship killed & DeRo back together?
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Simone
Junior Member
Posts: 276
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Post by Simone on Apr 5, 2008 13:09:37 GMT -5
I don't think that chemistry, which is subjective any way, has anything to do with what the writers are doing with Deniz and Roman. The writers have an agenda which is to shake things up and ratchet up the drama to engage the audience. Some of the audience like Deniz and Roman, Igor got them some publicity and now the writers are moving to push Deniz to the forefront as the romantic hero.
On the official AWZ message board, I see quite a few positive Deniz/Vanessa posts and alice27 who posted that Deniz/Roman board said that people are starting to like Deniz and Vanessa as a couple which I can believe. There are lots of women who fantasize that gay men can become straight through love and I have no doubt that is the main reason that the writers choose to hook Deniz up with the sweet, but unlucky in love Vanessa. A greater percentage of the audience may prefer this story and if the ratings reflect this, Deniz and Roman as a couple may be permanently over.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 5, 2008 13:15:41 GMT -5
I don't think that chemistry, which is subjective any way, has anything to do with what the writers are doing with Deniz and Roman. The writers have an agenda which is to shake things up and ratchet up the drama to engage the audience. Some of the audience like Deniz and Roman, Igor got them some publicity and now the writers are moving to push Deniz to the forefront as the romantic hero. On the official AWZ message board, I see quite a few positive Deniz/Vanessa posts and alice27 who posted that Deniz/Roman board said that people are starting to like Deniz and Vanessa as a couple which I can believe. There are lots of women who fantasize that gay men can become straight through love and I have no doubt that is the main reason that the writers choose to hook Deniz up with the sweet, but unlucky in love Vanessa. A greater percentage of the audience may prefer this story and if the ratings reflect this, Deniz and Roman as a couple may be permanently over. I am aware that chemistry is subjective, I am just saying that the show got lots of attention and accolades due to DeRo and if for some misbegotten reason the show decides to keep DeVa together instead of breaking them up and going back to DeRo *shudders* I think it will be a bad decision story-wise and business-wise.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 5, 2008 13:16:30 GMT -5
I have only been on some boards other than the main one, often just on the look through and I always got the impression that there are some people who like Deniz and Vanessa, but not really a huge lot of them.
On the other hand, there's isn't exactly a huge upheaval among the casual fans against the end of DeRo either. As fans of the gay storylines we usually just see the shows through that one storyline, but there are a lot of storylines and people still busily discuss Juli and Oliver and Anette and Ingo and so on. It doesn't seem to be such a pressing matter (I think Ollian is the same for the casual VL fans. Some people don't like them, some people think they are cute, a lot of them are probably blah on them and don't care deeply either way; they probably don't get as much hate as they could get because there are a lot of other storylines and characters who the fans like even less).
That said I have heard that German soap writers supposedly are even less flexible than their US counterparts and don't easily change storylines. For example Sarah/Leonard are considered the supercouple by the writers of VL. However a lot of fans had huge issues with them because both Leonard's wife Jana and Sarah's husband Gregor were very popular characters. I think it's possible that Sarah/Leonard were still beloved by the majority of the casual audience, but there were also a lot of vocal people who had huge issues with them and how they screwed voer Jana and Gregor to be together, but the writers didn't change the storyline.
But that's the question, are DeVa really being written like a supercouple that the writers want to do at all costs? I'm not really getting that vibe from them, even aside from the chemistry.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 5, 2008 13:27:33 GMT -5
they probably don't get as much hate as they could get because there are a lot of other storylines and characters who the fans like even less). This made me laugh cause I totally thought about ATWT when I read that.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 5, 2008 13:34:52 GMT -5
they probably don't get as much hate as they could get because there are a lot of other storylines and characters who the fans like even less). This made me laugh cause I totally thought about ATWT when I read that. LOL, but it really seems to be that way, that compared to a lot of stuff going on on VL they really are the lesser evil. Both Judith/Fabian and Sebastain/Lydia are couples with only new characters. All four characters have been around for like, a month? Two months? And they get more screentime than Ollian. Compared to that Christian has been on the show for two years, is connected to Gregor who is well beloved, while Olli is a long term character with good connections to Charlie and Olivia. Meanwhile Fabian and Lydia are connected to Lisa and Susanne who are already hated by most people anyway. And on the other hand you have Sarah and Leonard as characters who are a couple and who get storyline who are reviled by a lot as liars and cheaters who betrayed Jana and Gregor. I think the people who have the most issues with Ollian are the fans of Susanne and Carla who feel that maybe they broke up the Susanne/Carla relationship to give the default gay spot to Ollian. So to them it's replacing a great relationship (Susanne/Carla or Carla/anybody) with a storyline that is inferior to them. But I think even they are pacified by the fact that all those other annoying characters get more screentime than Ollian.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 5, 2008 13:40:56 GMT -5
I have only been on some boards other than the main one, often just on the look through and I always got the impression that there are some people who like Deniz and Vanessa, but not really a huge lot of them. On the other hand, there's isn't exactly a huge upheaval among the casual fans against the end of DeRo either. As fans of the gay storylines we usually just see the shows through that one storyline, but there are a lot of storylines and people still busily discuss Juli and Oliver and Anette and Ingo and so on. It doesn't seem to be such a pressing matter (I think Ollian is the same for the casual VL fans. Some people don't like them, some people think they are cute, a lot of them are probably blah on them and don't care deeply either way; they probably don't get as much hate as they could get because there are a lot of other storylines and characters who the fans like even less). That said I have heard that German soap writers supposedly are even less flexible than their US counterparts and don't easily change storylines. For example Sarah/Leonard are considered the supercouple by the writers of VL. However a lot of fans had huge issues with them because both Leonard's wife Jana and Sarah's husband Gregor were very popular characters. I think it's possible that Sarah/Leonard were still beloved by the majority of the casual audience, but there were also a lot of vocal people who had huge issues with them and how they screwed voer Jana and Gregor to be together, but the writers didn't change the storyline. But that's the question, are DeVa really being written like a supercouple that the writers want to do at all costs? I'm not really getting that vibe from them, even aside from the chemistry. I don't get a supercouple vibe either but I still have a bit of doubt that the writers will screw things up and keep DeVa together. Not a lot of doubt but a little bit because I've been burned in the past. Are German soap fans less vocal? Like I know in the USA peeps will bombard a tv station and a show's production company if they're very displeased. I know when I first came on to boards loving DeRo and hating the DeVa storyline direction, most people felt similarly to me and it still seems to be more that way than embracing DeVa. *shrugs*
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 5, 2008 13:51:18 GMT -5
To be honest, I have no idea. I always used to think German soaps were stupid before now, so I never really watched them.
However I do think that: - It's really hard to get attention on anything in Germany unless it includes violence or nazis - The rotation is a lot faster, like we talked earlier, characters, even popular characters get written out constantly because the actors try to make it elsewhere. So people aren't able to build up these deep bonds, because chances are three years later any popular charcter or storyline will be gone. Or it's also hard to argue why your storyline shouldn't be treated this way if maybe even more popular storylines and characters get written out all the time even though they are beloved.
I do get the impression that the writers react to popularity. For example if they sense that a character is popular they might bring him back if they can. But I'm not sure how much they let fans dicatate the smaller storyline turns. Plus, not all writers are alike. So who's to say that the writers of AWZ are anything like the writers of VL.
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