Simone
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Posts: 276
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Post by Simone on Apr 5, 2008 13:53:19 GMT -5
LOL, but it really seems to be that way, that compared to a lot of stuff going on on VL they really are the lesser evil. Both Judith/Fabian and Sebastain/Lydia are couples with only new characters. All four characters have been around for like, a month? Two months? And they get more screentime than Ollian. Compared to that Christian has been on the show for two years, is connected to Gregor who is well beloved, while Olli is a long term character with good connections to Charlie and Olivia. Meanwhile Fabian and Lydia are connected to Lisa and Susanne who are already hated by most people anyway. And on the other hand you have Sarah and Leonard as characters who are a couple and who get storyline who are reviled by a lot as liars and cheaters who betrayed Jana and Gregor. I think the people who have the most issues with Ollian are the fans of Susanne and Carla who feel that maybe they broke up the Susanne/Carla relationship to give the default gay spot to Ollian. So to them it's replacing a great relationship (Susanne/Carla or Carla/anybody) with a storyline that is inferior to them. But I think even they are pacified by the fact that all those other annoying characters get more screentime than Ollian. Sounds like German soaps aren't much different from U.S. soaps. The writers fall in love with their new characters and shove them down our throats even if they suck and no one is interested in their issues. Even how they treat Ollian sounds about the same. The gay story is given little airtime, maybe one day a week on an hour long soap. Also, the writers decide which couples to promote as major couples and even when the audience loses interest (as in ratings) nothing changes because the story is set in stone for months as the show is filmed 5 weeks ahead.
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Simone
Junior Member
Posts: 276
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Post by Simone on Apr 5, 2008 14:00:37 GMT -5
I am aware that chemistry is subjective, I am just saying that the show got lots of attention and accolades due to DeRo and if for some misbegotten reason the show decides to keep DeVa together instead of breaking them up and going back to DeRo *shudders* I think it will be a bad decision story-wise and business-wise. As Gabi pointed out AWZ is a highly rated soap and quite popular. While the attention for Deniz and Roman's romance may have been nice, its continuation may have no impact on their ratings or a large section of the audience because like Lola pointed out it is only one of the stories that their audience follows and most people won't stop watching because Deniz and Roman have broken up.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 5, 2008 14:09:10 GMT -5
As Gabi pointed out AWZ is a highly rated soap and quite popular. While the attention for Deniz and Roman's romance may have been nice, its continuation may have no impact on their ratings or a large section of the audience because like Lola pointed out it is only one of the stories that their audience follows and most people won't stop watching because Deniz and Roman have broken up. I think even if the ratings went down it wouldn't necessarily mean that it would bring a desired pairing back. If the writers checked the ratings and the ratings were down their first reaction would probably be to blow some sh*t up, do some huge dramatic storyline turn or something like that.
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valso
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Posts: 1,525
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Post by valso on Apr 5, 2008 14:10:44 GMT -5
My problem with AWZ is that the triangle Deniz/Roman/Vanessa has been written from the DeVa point of view, Roman is portrayed like the third wheel/pathetic obstacle who try to come between DeVa and the fulfilment of their great love. It seems like the authors said the right couple to root for is DeVa and their unconventional true love. This is the reason so many people start to take a liking to Deniz and Vanessa imho. I'm not sure that AWZ authors idea is to bring back together DeRo, anyway not anytime soon. And the worst thing I fear is that on the long run the characters will be so changed and twisted that if and when they'll get back together I wouldn't care much about them anymore. So I'm more than happy to stay where I am right now that is Ollian land and I don't plan to leave in the near future
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 5, 2008 14:14:14 GMT -5
For all we know the endgame is neither DeVa or DeRo. Maybe they want to establish Deniz as a future romantic hero. So they use Vanessa to break up DeRo and then eventually dump DeVa too so they can pair Deniz up with whoever they want to. And whoever they want to pair him with doesn't get the bad press of being the person or pairing who broke up DeRo.
But if that was the case, why would they bother to try to assure the DeRo fans?
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 5, 2008 14:20:48 GMT -5
My problem with AWZ is that the triangle Deniz/Roman/Vanessa has been written from the DeVa point of view, Roman is portrayed like the third wheel/pathetic obstacle who try to come between DeVa and the fulfilment of their great love. I hear ya! Roman is the only character I feel any compassion for in this storyline (though at times his diva moments are rather trying) but I have to agree with you that he is being written in a more negative light than Vanessa, who deserves a spotlight on her bad actions, and Deniz who definitely is the villain (for lack of a better word right now) in this mess. I really do wish the writers would bring on a guy for Roman.
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Post by harmonium on Apr 5, 2008 14:45:16 GMT -5
I don't think that chemistry, which is subjective any way, has anything to do with what the writers are doing with Deniz and Roman. The writers have an agenda which is to shake things up and ratchet up the drama to engage the audience. Some of the audience like Deniz and Roman, Igor got them some publicity and now the writers are moving to push Deniz to the forefront as the romantic hero. On the official AWZ message board, I see quite a few positive Deniz/Vanessa posts and alice27 who posted that Deniz/Roman board said that people are starting to like Deniz and Vanessa as a couple which I can believe. There are lots of women who fantasize that gay men can become straight through love and I have no doubt that is the main reason that the writers choose to hook Deniz up with the sweet, but unlucky in love Vanessa. A greater percentage of the audience may prefer this story and if the ratings reflect this, Deniz and Roman as a couple may be permanently over. I just feel that the writers are doing a bad job at trying to capture the viewers' attention by screwing up the storyline. I mean they gave us such promising storyline when Deniz and Roman got together, but out of nowhere, their relationship is short-lived with the introduction of Vanessa as the 'third' party. They practically tore down what they have built up initially. And I am those viewers that don't like to keep guessing around. From what I've watched from the clips, there was not an outright reason that why Deniz has a change of heart suddenly. I mean he didn't actually tell Roman why he chose Vanessa in the end. Correct me if I'm wrong. I felt there's a missing link. And also, if they wanted to make Deniz straight again, at least try to make it more convincing, but from the practically zero love chemistry between Vanessa and Deniz, I felt I was taken for a ride for nothing. I just hope the writers are writing Deniz to be in a moment of denial and nothing more. If that's the reason, I still can wait a little longer before he came around to his senses. But if the writers have decided that Roman is just a fling for Deniz or a tool Deniz used to test his sexuality, I'm gonna get really PISSED!! And also, I just don't like the way the writers portray Roman recently. He's getting on my nerves by acting desperate/needy/dramatic all at once. I believe there's another side of Roman that the writers have not present it to us. We need a dignified Roman, not a scheming or desperate one. And last of all, one song needs to be dedicated to Roman - Hilary Duff's Dignity ("Where's your, where's your, where's your dignity???) ;D
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valso
Full Member
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Post by valso on Apr 5, 2008 17:22:32 GMT -5
My problem with AWZ is that the triangle Deniz/Roman/Vanessa has been written from the DeVa point of view, Roman is portrayed like the third wheel/pathetic obstacle who try to come between DeVa and the fulfilment of their great love. I hear ya! Roman is the only character I feel any compassion for in this storyline (though at times his diva moments are rather trying) but I have to agree with you that he is being written in a more negative light than Vanessa, who deserves a spotlight on her bad actions, and Deniz who definitely is the villain (for lack of a better word right now) in this mess. I really do wish the writers would bring on a guy for Roman. I totally agree with you on this! I like Roman, but lately he's really hard to deal with. Bring a guy in, even only for a short time, could spice things up a little and shake Deniz too, but that's only my wishful thinking
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Post by GayTime on Apr 6, 2008 10:30:58 GMT -5
I hear ya! Roman is the only character I feel any compassion for in this storyline (though at times his diva moments are rather trying) but I have to agree with you that he is being written in a more negative light than Vanessa, who deserves a spotlight on her bad actions, and Deniz who definitely is the villain (for lack of a better word right now) in this mess. I really do wish the writers would bring on a guy for Roman. I totally agree with you on this! I like Roman, but lately he's really hard to deal with. Bring a guy in, even only for a short time, could spice things up a little and shake Deniz too, but that's only my wishful thinking i trust on annette and ingo to bring him down from whatever he's tripping on right now. :-) great acting opportunity for dennis, of course, but roman is starting to get very irritating...
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Simone
Junior Member
Posts: 276
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Post by Simone on Apr 10, 2008 11:20:07 GMT -5
So has anyone visited the Deniz/Roman fan fic message board? Are there steamy fan fics? Interesting ones? Well written one? Since it is in German, I don't have a clue.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 10, 2008 11:24:03 GMT -5
I went there once but since it required sign up to view the posts I didn't bother.
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Post by amber80 on Apr 10, 2008 11:33:29 GMT -5
I signed up, but I've not read anything yet... I was just curious, so I signed up. But I'm not that much of a fanfic reader, so I don't see myself stopping by there a lot...
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 10, 2008 19:41:24 GMT -5
Cause Gabi rocks: awz-favourites.blogspot.com/2008/04/very-first-kiss.html ;D So what was up with Deniz's hands on his hips when he was arguing with Roman? What he mocking him? He seemed to be... flirting with Roman. So can anyone detail their conversation for the non-native speakers?
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 11, 2008 2:00:18 GMT -5
I just watched Gabi's clip of the fallout from the kiss: awz-favourites.blogspot.com/2008/04/unfreiwilliges-outing-mal-zwei.htmlSo nevermind Deniz shrugging off the kiss considering that bad move he pulled kissing Nina -even though it was only on the cheek - knowing how she feels about him & knowing he doesn't remotely feel the same way. I really wonder sometimes if Deniz bothers to think before he acts thus realizing there could be consequences or if he is all about appearances & how others perceive him.
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Post by psionycx on Apr 12, 2008 20:38:54 GMT -5
I had forgotten the statement from the AWZ writer. I do wish that AWZ let Roman have more dignity given that he is the wounded party. I know. It's kind of shame the way he's been written. He certainly seemed like a nicer person previously.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 13, 2008 6:36:29 GMT -5
Re: All this stuff about Nina, Vanessa and co:
I'm still not too convinced of Deniz exclusive gayness. Of course that depends on how you define gayness. What you are attracted to, what you are more attracted to, what you like, what you enjoy sex with? Again, if we have Deniz 100% gay and no interest in women at all, why throw in some random scene where they use the camera to show that Deniz looks at Nina's ass as she walks away? Not that that is some important point or major proof of anything, just why bother include this scene at all? (though it's always possible that the writers just wanted to throw Nina some a bone/some dignity)
Added to that you have the factor that Germans or at least German soaps are really careless about how they use the terms gay and bi. After all Christian too keeps using the word gay as he struggles with what term to pick despite the fact that we all know that he is very likely bi. Because apparently in Germany, if you have sex with men and like it you are gay, even though you are attracted to women as well.
If sexuality was a completely fluid thing I would at the moment judge them roughly like this:
Roman: 99% gay (that one percent for Anette), Olli 90% (yet he still calls himself bi?), Deniz maybe 75% and Christian like 20% (yet still enough to fall in love with Olli).
The truth is, it's gonna be hard to make much of decision regarding what Deniz exactly is at the moment. I think the real interesting question is gonna be who he is gonna pick after Vanessa. So if he picked a person other than either Vanessa or Roman (both of whom have their own version of an emotional stranglehold on him).
IF Deniz ends up going back to men after Vanessa (and I mean men in general, not just Roman) then I wouldn't consider Vanessa any evidence of him being ungayed. Everybody can have a hiccup. At the moment, whether that is intended by the writers or not, DeVa strikes me of Deniz being comfortable there. Maybe like a guy who would rather have a low key relationship even if the sex isn't great rather than a high strung relationship he doesn't want to be in.
Again, only the future will tell what Deniz will go for after that, whether they'll make him fall for a women, whether it will be like Roman suggested that he liked "Abwechslung" or that it is like Roman suspects and it's just him trying to avoid being gay (but again, Deniz at the moment just doesn't strike me as very avoidy, though maybe Igor just isn't a subtle enough actor to convey it; It could also be argued that Deniz was a guy with a decent amount of same sex attraction going on (like my random 75% number) that was something he had to deal with, but who says that it is exclusive?)
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Post by GayTime on Apr 13, 2008 11:37:11 GMT -5
Re: All this stuff about Nina, Vanessa and co: I'm still not too convinced of Deniz exclusive gayness. Of course that depends on how you define gayness. What you are attracted to, what you are more attracted to, what you like, what you enjoy sex with? Again, if we have Deniz 100% gay and no interest in women at all, why throw in some random scene where they use the camera to show that Deniz looks at Nina's ass as she walks away? Not that that is some important point or major proof of anything, just why bother include this scene at all? (though it's always possible that the writers just wanted to throw Nina some a bone/some dignity) Added to that you have the factor that Germans or at least German soaps are really careless about how they use the terms gay and bi. After all Christian too keeps using the word gay as he struggles with what term to pick despite the fact that we all know that he is very likely bi. Because apparently in Germany, if you have sex with men and like it you are gay, even though you are attracted to women as well. If sexuality was a completely fluid thing I would at the moment judge them roughly like this: Roman: 99% gay (that one percent for Anette), Olli 90% (yet he still calls himself bi?), Deniz maybe 75% and Christian like 20% (yet still enough to fall in love with Olli). The truth is, it's gonna be hard to make much of decision regarding what Deniz exactly is at the moment. I think the real interesting question is gonna be who he is gonna pick after Vanessa. So if he picked a person other than either Vanessa or Roman (both of whom have their own version of an emotional stranglehold on him). IF Deniz ends up going back to men after Vanessa (and I mean men in general, not just Roman) then I wouldn't consider Vanessa any evidence of him being ungayed. Everybody can have a hiccup. At the moment, whether that is intended by the writers or not, DeVa strikes me of Deniz being comfortable there. Maybe like a guy who would rather have a low key relationship even if the sex isn't great rather than a high strung relationship he doesn't want to be in. Again, only the future will tell what Deniz will go for after that, whether they'll make him fall for a women, whether it will be like Roman suggested that he liked "Abwechslung" or that it is like Roman suspects and it's just him trying to avoid being gay (but again, Deniz at the moment just doesn't strike me as very avoidy, though maybe Igor just isn't a subtle enough actor to convey it; It could also be argued that Deniz was a guy with a decent amount of same sex attraction going on (like my random 75% number) that was something he had to deal with, but who says that it is exclusive?) I will have to say that I know a lot of gay men who are absolutely frustrated at the perceived 'fluid sexuality' of German soap characters (and for many that's in fact the straw they're still clinging onto for Nuke - that these characters are absolutely sure of their sexuality). I've made out with girls at parties (shame on me), however I would still consider myself 100% gay. I also would consider Roman 100% gay, since Annette and him happened when they were both heavily intoxicated. Your assessment of Oliver sounds about right. For Deniz, I'm convinced he's a Kinsey 5, but his cultural background and his immaturity stand in his way. I still try to give the AWZ writers credit and say that the total lack of chemistry between DeVa is a deliberate choice and is hinting at exactly this. I also keep remembering that Dennis Grabosch (Roman) said in interviews he spend a longer time with a girl AFTER he had come out. So maybe it's all part of a bigger plan, even though it's completely unwatchable at this point. Call me old fashioned, and I know a lot of people disagree with me, but I still think that male bisexuality is the last exit before reaching Gay-Town ;-). So Christian for me right now is at least at 60 or 70%. He struggled with his feelings because it was all new to him (if you don't count his bromance with Andi), but at least when it comes to Olli he seems to have no hard time adjusting and he's certainly the assertive one. :-)
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 13, 2008 11:47:44 GMT -5
Re: All this stuff about Nina, Vanessa and co: That's the same thing in The USA too. Like women are more accepted as being bi but if a guy is or says he is bi, then he's considered gay by most folks regardless, which I think is a double standard. I understand why people think that but for me it makes me wonder why it's acceptable for women to be bi but not men. I Kinsey scaled the characters much like you did with the percentages. I put Roman as 5 knocking just on 6s door. Deniz & Olli I would put as a 4s leaning to 5 just because both have had relations with women & I think consider themselves bi but seem much more passionate about men, Christian a 2 maybe a 3 but that depends on story development for me plus he & Coco actually had chemistry, Luke a 6 and Noah a 5 (I put Noah as a 5 and not a 4 just because I remember that look on his face after he and Maddie had sex that first time otherwise I would have put him as a 4). For me, the problem with Deniz is the writers haven't been good at showing what is going on in his head in the past couple of months like they were when he first came on the show and also when he was going through the stuff with coming out and his relationship with Roman. It's like once he officially got with Vanessa, cause even when he was double dipping there was still something going on that the audience could see, he became this shallow, ego driven character and a lot of his depth as a character went MIA. The only times recently I've seen that depth are the scenes with Marian over Nadja's miscarriage. Vanessa is easy, Roman is hard work and Deniz is immature and not capable of dealing with what Roman wants. However, I don't see the relationship with Vanessa as actually helping Deniz grow/mature as a person. It actually seems like he's regressing maturity wise the longer he is with her. Does that mean what I think it means? At first I thought that was the case but I think Deniz just can't deal with Roman more than it is him running away from being gay and like we've both said, being with Vanessa is just easier for him. Deniz needs to grow up and even if he doesn't get back together with Roman down the road ... ... he still has a lot of issues to deal with about himself as a person separate from the conflicts he still has about his sexuality. Remember he even told Roman that he may be gay but he wants to be with Vanessa right now. So... who knows? *sigh*
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 13, 2008 11:56:52 GMT -5
Maybe we should make up a topic for Gay/Bi/Straight discussion I think it probably depends on how each person defines what is straight to them. For example, I would consider somebody straight if they never had any same sex contact of any sort or any same sex attraction (needlessly to say, not a lot of people would fall into that). So the lipstick lesbian is already something other than 100%straight. Same for the guy who had some sort of gay experience in his youth, but moved on (like let's say here). Yet, many people see gay/straight as to meaning that you have only had significant relationships with persons of the designated gender. Or it might be depening on what gender the person is you can reach the top degree of fullfillment with (let's say being with Vanessa gives Deniz 35% satisfaction and being with Roman gives him 95% you can see that as him being 35% percent straight or you can see it as him clearly gay because being gay gives him that much more satisfaction) There is also the emotional component. People who might be willing to have sex with people of the same gender and honestly enjoy themselves (again, lipstick lesbian scenario), but they ultimately don't have the ability to have a long lasting relationship with the person of the same sex. What does that make them? If we say that the sex doesn't matter when the emotional component isn't there, then what about gay people who have hetero relationship that are based on real affection but never work in the bedroom? Do these then "count" or not count? I do think this kind of thinking is essentially a very hetero-centric world view, that straight people look at themselves, yeah maybe I have "a bit of gay" inside of me because they made out with somebody of the same sex once, have a crush on Jack Bauer or Angelina Jolie or let a person of the same sex get them off during puberty and decide to not consider that a traumatic experience. While a gay person might look at this and say "Errr, it's kinda not the same/it only counts if you also walk the walk". It kinda reminds me of the way white people interact with black people (or other people of color) and feel very worldy when they say, well, I have had a greatgreatgreat grandmother who was Indian/Black/Russian, that is almost the same as being black and now I want to embrace my heritage. When in reality it is more than that, it comes with a certain culture and personal/emotional development and certain additional pentalties when you live in society. Still, where you have an x-centrist world view, you will also encounter certain amount of clueless navel gazing. Random: I think I have found the perfect moinker for Olli. He's a lipstick straight Ah, men. If you are unhappy, frikking SAY SO. Don't immediately run off an cheat. So yes, it's probably totally in character. It means "varitey" I think in direct translation.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 13, 2008 12:16:46 GMT -5
Deniz has never been all that good with his expressing his feelings with Roman unless it was sexual. And now if ever the two are with each other more than 20 seconds, they fight. Communication was never the best between them whenever they were upset with the other while they were dating and even now they just yell at each other versus talking. The current state of things between makes what happens later this month all the more interesting to me.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 14, 2008 3:45:10 GMT -5
Depending on how the story plays out, I could still picture it ending with major vindication for Roman. Plus, the way they are with each other, I could even picture them ending up together if an enlightened Deniz crawls back and Roman accepts him back gracefully. It won't really be my idea of a romantic storyline, but it might work for them as characters.
And if Deniz goes back to men (other than Roman) after Vanessa, then I wouldn't even consider that a seriously impairment of his straightness. Everybody can have a hiccup on the way.
Only if Deniz next romance is with a woman too I would consider that serious straightification. So the story could still go a bunch of ways.
It's just annoying that we have to sit through Deniz gay issues when Roman is the much more interesting character.
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Simone
Junior Member
Posts: 276
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Post by Simone on Apr 14, 2008 9:13:17 GMT -5
It is really too bad that AWZ doesn't prize Roman as much as they Deniz. Dennis is a good actor who should be featured more prominently regard of how much they want to promote Igor.
While Roman is definitely gay being a 5 or 6 on the Kinsey scale, I wouldn't bother rate Deniz's sexuality on the Kinsey scale because AWZ is manipulating it to fit their own agenda. Initially Deniz was gay, now he is "whatever."
While I agree with GayTime that most men who claim to bisexual are on their way to being gay, but there is a minority that are incidentally homosexual and I think that is Christian. I don't view Christian as being gay. I think that he is bi-curious. If Olli hadn't come along, there is no way that I see him being attracted to the random guy on the street. I feel the same way about Craig from Hollyoaks.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 14, 2008 11:38:21 GMT -5
It's a pity that they never showed us what Ulli was doing in off screen land. I understand he started out similarly (dating a girl then falling for Tom), where he was ever attracted to any other guys, or dated girls on the side or was supposed to have have been "saving" himself for Tom ;p
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 22, 2008 12:32:25 GMT -5
Noooooooooooooo they raped Breathe Me by using it for Marian/Nina! Besides Marian is just way too hot for Nina. And could the setup be any more creepy? With the "dad" skulking around the bedroom door of the "daughter" and trying to decide whether to go in? Save Marian! send him to Marianhof so he can be Sülo's new boyfriend
Could Vanessa seem any more tired of being with Deniz? She didn't even seem interested in making up with him in this episode.
I kinda love Mr and Mrs Steinkamp. They are evil awesome.
TWO music montages within one episode? Whatev AWZ.
Vanessa&Ben, Maximilian&Jenny, Nina&Marian, all in one episode. And here I thought VL was the incest soap.
They really cheated us out of all the kiss fallout. Bah. Looks like the fun part will be in the next episode.
If Deniz was supposed to portray yearning for Roman in this episode, he certainly sucked at it. Hope it gets better tomorrow.
I did think that the scene where Deniz if fighting with Ben and Vanessa and Roman pull them apart was well done.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 22, 2008 12:38:34 GMT -5
Noooooooooooooo they raped Breathe Me by using it for Marian/Nina! Besides Marian is just way too hot for Nina. And could the setup be any more creepy? With the "dad" skulking around the bedroom door of the "daughter" and trying to decide whether to go in? Save Marian! send him to Marianhof so he can be Sülo's new boyfriendCould Vanessa seem any more tired of being with Deniz? She didn't even seem interested in making up with him in this episode. I kinda love Mr and Mrs Steinkamp. They are evil awesome. TWO music montages within one episode? Whatev AWZ. Vanessa&Ben, Maximilian&Jenny, Nina&Marian, all in one episode. And here I thought VL was the incest soap. They really cheated us out of all the kiss fallout. Bah. Looks like the fun part will be in the next episode. If Deniz was supposed to portray yearning for Roman in this episode, he certainly sucked at it. Hope it gets better tomorrow. Wait, what happened with the kiss? Did it just end and the fallout is tomorrow? And I honestly dont' expect longing & yearning from Deniz cause you feel that way when you can't have something you want and Deniz knows he can have Roman which is why Roman needs a new man to not only make him deservedly happy but to show Deniz he can't just snap his fingers and have Roman back whenever he wants. I am SO grossed out by Max/Jenny but the Nina/Marian thing runs a very close second.
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