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Post by caitlinp on Sept 9, 2010 19:23:36 GMT -5
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Post by anthonyl on Sept 9, 2010 19:40:05 GMT -5
Thanks! So true!
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 9, 2010 20:00:27 GMT -5
That's the first time that I've seen someone in a media position point out that one of the problems is that we won't get to see Luke recover from this, which is no way to end the show. Fans can fanwank all we won't but it should be about what plays out on screen. And I'm grateful that she wrote that there was no real payoff for Luke and Reid's storyline, and the main reason for that isn't even because Reid died, it's because they put the brakes on that storyline a few weeks ago in order to use Luke and Reid as props in Katie and Chris' story. That was a stupid decision from a storyline standpoint, and for a couple of reasons it was beyond offensive.
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Post by anthonyl on Sept 9, 2010 20:06:23 GMT -5
Yep. Everytime I read people saying, but we KNOW this will happen when after the show is over. No, you think that will happen based on our own perceptions and agendas. The only thing you KNOW and what matters is what happens on screen. And to me if it didn't happen on screen then it didn't happen. But was really annoying is how they filled in all the blanks in Luke and Reid's relationship instead of letting us see those scenes and moments while they were worried about Reid and Katie.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Sept 14, 2010 17:02:48 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2010 8:53:05 GMT -5
After viewing the latest episodes, I feel what’s going to follow might be quite an unpopular opinion and mostly a rambling rant that’s probably been asking to come out for too long. I’ve been so unimpressed by this show’s latest attempts at drama buildup and execution that when I watch now I don’t even have the heart to be too bitter. It’s just sad. I won’t even go into the ways the gay characters were screwed over, and how much I wish some of the outrage I’ve seen in more and more places had been there years ago in the mainstream so that maybe something could have been salvaged at least. Then again it’s more likely that TPTB still wouldn’t have cared. For me, what played out wasn’t the epic love story that the soap media and fans clamored and asked for for months, and trying to make it so in Luke’s final scenes made things odd to me. It could and should have been much better, more “felt” all the way through, based on the whole storytelling rather than the final dramatic scenes and acting performances, as fine as I’ve found them. My belief: ATWT never intended to tell a real love story, and it didn’t. There were a lot of circling around, anvils, and unnecessary cock- I mean roadblocks, the couple lasted too little and was shown actually being a couple too little on the show, there was flirting but no romance, and the intimacy was lacking. A lot of unnecessarily wasted time and opportunity in the storyline for the couple IMO. To me, almost all they bothered doing was throw in the “love” words in the final week of impending doom and in the last episode, so that we get caught up in the drama they cooked up. Right after discovering that he’s in love, tragedy strikes and Luke is left to mourn and in sorrow. What was the point in the end? When Luke was going over the many basic things he never even did with Reid and what he didn’t know, I found myself wondering if it was the show’s twisted way of highlighting to us its many failings in the love story telling when it had all the opportunity to show us all of that and more to make us believe in the story all the way through and really give it authenticity and truth in the end. I don’t think anyone can really convince me that those writers and TPTB care about these characters or the audience; it was so randomly idiotic to me. Some will disagree, but the past weeks especially seemed off to me, not authentic. Again, means to an end IMO. When I saw a lot of fans were so glad in the last 2-3 weeks to see character development for Reid, caring, etc., to me it all screamed plot needs used to up the drama they were setting up. Reid didn’t have to be made “more human” in such obvious and repeated ways in order for the love story to be told and to work; besides the fact that he was already all human to me, all of that stuff obviously served another purpose. Also, the hero thing just bugs me for a couple of reasons, almost as much as it does Luke apparently; he wasn’t a hero, simply most of the time a guy doing his job and doing it very well, and on occasion going beyond the call of duty, like many others do. And he didn’t die on purpose or anything. I won’t even get into the ridiculous way they made the death happen, but it’s almost as if they have to make sure he’s remembered as a hero so that the other characters don’t think he was a monster, which he never even was close to in the first place. As if by claiming and making him a hero, the show can actually justify the unnecessary killing of the character. The way that played out just screams B.S. to me from ATWT. Luke getting a new love interest had so much potential to be front and center, but it fizzled quickly in favor of a single character story which actually turned out to serve another one of ATWT’s plot-driven messes, with a questionable climax. Luke/Reid once it became a concrete pairing wasn’t the real focus, all things considered; Reid kind of was for his own path to “heroism”, and then actually it turned out to be all about Chris/Katie, for whatever reason too. When I complained quite early on about the storytelling, going back to when Reid had decided to quit to get a chance with Luke, followed by the hospital drama (I remember actually writing something like feeling that “something is getting lost before it even starts”), some saw me as merely being anti-Luke/Reid. But my beef then and it’s even clearer to me now was that they just weren’t telling the love story. They had the chemistry and the good acting, and just decided to let the viewers ride on that, with a couple of crumbs here and there for good measure. And it turns out they were stalling on fully telling the love story IMO, just gunning for something outside of the couple entirely in the end. Luke/Reid was in so many ways a means to an end that was planned out for reasons that still puzzle me. If they had not killed Reid and instead left it open to the possibility that the love story would continue, there could at least be a feeling that the love story would develop to its potential some time in the future, beyond the show, and something worthwhile maybe would have come out of this. But it just didn’t get there yet by the time it ended for me. It’s simply to me because ATWT didn’t want to tell a real love story here. They killed the previous one and aborted telling the second one before it even started. It was kind of like a flower burgeoning while we’re waiting for it to pop out and bloom; I acknowledge that it might have had already reached that phase to some, but I personally was still waiting for the big popping out and blooming. They didn’t have to be lovey-dovey; I don’t think that Reid would have been like that and I likely would not have bought it either. But they should have been shown being a couple more instead of the piling on hospital drama with a bit of teasing/flirting on the side. We got a few hints of what they could be as a couple, but them being a couple was more than scarce. I got the enthusiasm at what it was expected and hoped to be, which was quite understandably also much fueled by the stalling of the Luke/Noah pairing. I was waiting to actually see it unfold before being blown away; I wasn’t. I did want to be blown away; it had been a while since ATWT had managed that for me. Maybe that’s where I erred. I honestly thought that the enthusiastic soap media knew something we didn’t and that it (the story, not simply the chemistry or the acting) would be fantastic, unlike what ATWT usually ends up pulling after setting up a good premise. Instead, it was pretty much at best an ok story at times for a soap to me, which is maybe close to an ace by ATWT standards, but still. I saw the potential, but the execution wasn’t up to the hype, and that’s where I can say it’s typical of ATWT. The attempts to make it so tragically epic in the last episodes haven’t rung as true to me or impacted me as much as they were probably meant to for that reason. Too much and too contrived towards the end when there was a chance to pace and show it better earlier. They had plenty of time to effectively use before. I really don’t think ATWT wanted to bother. It might just be that my aversion for ATWT/TPTB came back full force by then and I pretty much closed off on anything they might have gotten emotionally out of me otherwise. I’ve really found the aftermath lame, so very lame and anticlimactic. I’d have much rather watched Van, Jake and Eric being themselves and talking to each other behind the scenes over the last showings than what we’ve been given for their characters. The fact that the branded love wasn’t even consummated is also a concept that will never not be astonishing and just reaffirms my thoughts. I don’t buy the waiting for it to be special shtick; it was just the continued ATWT discriminatory way. The fact that there are some people out there who still don’t see the discrimination or still try to justify it after all these years baffles me. And the show using it to put in Luke’s mouth the words that it’s what he regrets the most about not doing with Reid was just unnecessary and pitiful rubbing in IMO. I find it low and another indication that they just don’t care, not about the audience and its intelligence, and certainly not about authenticity in storytelling. Honestly, it didn’t even have to come out of Luke’s mouth IMO. Also, way to show Luke as an even more dismal ingénue figure, waiting for that special moment to “make love” and with that out of body experience talk. I found it so pathetic, and just not moving. Who writes this stuff? Luke’s character has been the real loser here IMO, considering how it could all have gone, and that’s really sad to me. All of a sudden the show chooses to focus on him again somewhat, but only after Reid’s death, and only for pointedly dramatic purposes. I kept thinking that it just doesn’t make sense and I don’t know what TPTB were thinking, but then I remembered that this is the same ATWT of the past 2-3 years. It ended up being a whimper, not a bang for a storyline that was one of the most promising. I just wish some of the early enjoyment was not laid out specifically so that it could hurt some harder when it would be crushed down the line. It seems the writers want us to believe that by going through this, Luke will be stronger, and things might change by the end, but as of now, even that comes up short IMO. The modus operandi, its foundation and the aftermath were just so cheaply elaborated that it’s really hard for me these days to do more than pity Luke Snyder. What’s been done to this character is really a shame. What may be more shocking to me is the fact that CG and JP will continue to be trusted for soap writing after this. There’s something not quite right there. You get a chance to redeem yourselves with one perfect swan song, and you pull out this crap. Seriously.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 15, 2010 15:43:36 GMT -5
macari, I think most people would agree with you that the past few weeks of Reid's storyline were BS. In fact, Eric Sheffer Stevens did another interview with blogtalk radio yesterday, which is archived on their site, and he said that he finally understands why so many people aren't satisfied with the ending.
Someone described the ending as eating a bunch of junk food, you feel full, but you aren't really filled up or satisfied. There were some nice scenes, good acting, and good dialog, but the fell flat, because the show didn't do anything before hand to make them more meaningful.
First of all, I love Reid, but making someone who was only on the show for less than nine months the focus of the storyline was stupid. The show lucked out in that so many viewers took to Reid, so fast, but he still did not have the necessary history with the show for his death to have a huge impact, that's one of the reasons why by Wednesday all of the tributes to Reid felt incredibly fake and over done.
Aside from that, if Reid was still going to die then the show should have: Spent more time showing us Luke and Reid being a couple, and they should have had a honeymoon stage.
Spent more time showing Chris and Katie being a couple, but also did a better job of developing them as a couple. Reid and Luke received better development than them, and the guys had a stronger more believable relationship.
Shown Reid and Chris becoming friends or at the least frenimies, which would have given Reid's sacrifice more meaning.
Hammered home the point that Reid was opening his heart up to love, and that he finally realized that he could have a career and a personal life.
Make the last month be about Luke/Reid and Chris/Katie equally.
Not make Chris look like such an idiot. And introduce his illness right when he came on. It was too obvious that this was a last minute storyline, just like too many of the storylines and plot points that have been recently introduced.
Made Luke the focus ..... But, they still would have to deal with the travesty of Luke ending up alone and in mourning during the last days of the show. There's really no way to fix that stupid decision.
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Post by Zathras on Sept 15, 2010 20:06:26 GMT -5
macari - I agree completely with your thoughts . I won't respond to all your points, but I want to touch on something you said and elaborate a bit. Some will disagree, but the past weeks especially seemed off to me, not authentic. Again, means to an end IMO. When I saw a lot of fans were so glad in the last 2-3 weeks to see character development for Reid, caring, etc., to me it all screamed plot needs used to up the drama they were setting up. This is exactly right. ATWT has never given a damn about actual character development (at least for anything I've watched). It's always been a plot-driven show. They (TPTB) decided, for whatever reason, that Luke and Reid would have this tragic, heartbreaking event (that was the plan, anyway). And they realized that they needed L&R to actually be in love in order for it to be tragic and heartbreaking. So, right before the end, they just have them say they're in love with each other. But TPTB never cared to actually develop that relationship over time. To make it believable and get us invested. So it just ends up being a thoroughly hollow admission of love. And their "heartbreaking" event becomes unmoving and falls completely flat. I actually thought it turned out better than I had expected, but my expectations were so very low that they would have had to put some effort in to actually disappoint me. A sad ending to a long-running show, but quite fitting nonetheless.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2010 20:59:27 GMT -5
I actually thought it turned out better than I had expected, but my expectations were so very low that they would have had to put some effort in to actually disappoint me. A sad ending to a long-running show, but quite fitting nonetheless. Best way to watch for ATWT viewers, hope for the best and prepare for the absolute worst, so that you're bound to get something out of it, lol. I find the ending absolutely fitting indeed given the track record and who's been in charge in these past few years. At least the show's keeping some sense of consistency there.
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Post by Zathras on Sept 17, 2010 19:09:21 GMT -5
I guess this properly belongs here. Thanks, LukeVanFan.
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Post by Zathras on Sept 17, 2010 19:12:20 GMT -5
Well, that sucked. Now that it's out of the way, I can turn my attention elsewhere. C'est la vie.
Farewell, As the World Turns. Like so many other ventures, you had such potential, but you couldn't quite make it work right in the end. Hopefully the talented folks will find good work elsewhere.
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Post by anthonyl on Sept 17, 2010 19:43:39 GMT -5
I didn't care for it. Chris was a jerk right up until the end. LOVED how he doesn't want to be COS anymore. He only wanted it because he didn't want Reid to have it to begin with.
Though I'm surprised that Luke is still so upset and angry and hurting by Reid's death. He really isn't over this by any means. I thought for sure they'd be clubbing us over the head with a Luke/Noah reunion. Rightfully, they didn't.
I think Noah might be waiting awhile for that phone call. If it ever comes.
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thunderkat
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Post by thunderkat on Sept 21, 2010 10:41:02 GMT -5
rhihero-fic.livejournal.com/There doesn't seem to be a fanfic thread for ATWT but I thought i'd share this link for a phenomenal FIX IT!! fic for the whole Luke Reid fiasco. I know it makes me feel a little better about the CRAP soup that the powers that be gave us fans. Plus it's just damn well written. The Story is called "Raise Up Heart"
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Post by anthonyl on Sept 21, 2010 12:36:10 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 15:31:09 GMT -5
You know the feeling you get when someone who you’ve caught do something countless of times swears up and down that they never did such a thing when they get confronted? Yeah, that’s all I have.
It’s amazing how pretty much everything I’ve read from the higher ups from this show over the years has obviously been or becomes confirmed as a lie or faked blissful ignorance. Asking for explanations from TPBT regarding the - very blatant and painfully not new - discrimination should have happened months, years ago. Too little too late on everyone's part IMO. JP/CG could tell me that the sky is blue and I’d immediately go outside and check if it hasn’t turned purple overnight.
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Post by Zathras on Sept 21, 2010 19:51:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the link, anthony. Ugh. I feel the need to nitpick. "In the back of our minds we thought we'll end the show with a death, a birth, a wedding, a funeral and a retirement. We were sort of trying to encapsulate what happens on a show, in a town, and in life in a short period of time."Wait a sec. You had no choice on the funeral (the actress that passed away). Births and weddings are happy times. Retirement is kind of a neutral thing, I guess. So you threw the only bad thing on your list at the gay characters. Yes, I'm biased about this . "When I really pull back and think about all the things we did in the last six months of the show, we really turned Luke into a grown-up. We gave him a real responsible job and what's only the second romance in his life which he's still not quite 100% connected to, and then he kind of has this realizing that he's lost."Some of us may beg to differ on the "Luke is a grown-up" thing . As for the "real responsible job", he already had one of those. And he treated his seat on the board the same way he did his running Grimaldi Shipping, and running his Foundation. In other words, they made a big deal out of it for a couple episodes, and then rarely brought it up again. Yeah, I don't buy it. "Because I love the character of Reid, I knew that our audience loved the character of Reid."Huh? Am I reading that right? "And if we had more time I would have been able to get to a point where they were having an active and happy sex life. But as it was, it was all kind of curtailed."Gimme a break. She had plenty of time. She just squandered it. "Asked what those pressures were and if they came from the show’s producers Procter & Gamble, Passanante says only “Well, you know, I won't go into that. But I think it would be naive of any reader of your site to think that we just go off and do whatever we want. It's a television show, you know?"She didn't even really have to show anything, just state or imply that they had an active sex life. It would have been so much better than trying to make weak excuses for why they didn't have a sex life. Yeah, we would probably have complained about that, too. I dunno, maybe she couldn't win on this one. But it seems to me a truly creative writer could have done better with the constraints she had to work with. "His sexuality is an issue, but not the only issue."Um, okay then. Many of us could have pointed to many other issues in Luke's character that she could have worked on.
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