md1347
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Post by md1347 on Sept 9, 2010 14:45:10 GMT -5
Interesting scene.
<both Luke and Noah are kneeling down with Noah's arm on Luke's shoulder> Luke: I'm sorry. Noah: Don't be sorry… not for anything. Luke: <Luke looks at Noah> Anything? Noah: Luke… It's ok… really all of it. Luke: Ok <in a quiet voice and shaking his head ok> Luke: Don't you have a plane to catch? Noah: I'll get another one.
I was amazed that the writers went as far as they did by having Luke admit that he knew nothing about Reid and they basically did nothing together, including not having sex. Luke also admitted that he didn't know he loved Reid until the day he died, when he talked to Noah. Looks like Reid did the same thing when he came out of Chris's room, right before he left for Bay City.
A cardboard box, please. That was just wrong.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 9, 2010 15:10:20 GMT -5
As Noah said, Luke wouldn't have fallen in love with Reid if he didn't love him. Luke did all of those things with Noah, including making love, but he still realizes that he is no longer in love with Noah, and that they are not meant to be together. It would have been great to see Luke and Reid do all of those things, but they aren't what make up a relationship.
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Post by anthonyl on Sept 9, 2010 15:26:09 GMT -5
True, but they made it clear via Luke and other characters that Luke and Reid were in love, were just starting out and had a lot to look forward to. I think everyone acknowledged that. Also, Luke and Reid knew they had those feelings and shared them with each other. All those things, all the things they didn't get the chance to do or learn about each other, were cut short by Reid's death. That's the only reason their relationship ended and they missed out on all those things.
Luke and Reid's relationship was different than Luke and Noah's simply because they were very different men. It doesn't mean one is less or more important than the other. At at the end of the day, Luke still chose Reid over Noah and was planning to make his life with Reid. Luke's love for Reid isn't any less and isn't diminished by what happened.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 9, 2010 15:38:57 GMT -5
Well said. Luke being with Reid had nothing to do with Noah, and Luke not being with Noah had nothing to do with Reid. Even with Reid gone, that doesn't mean that Luke is going back to Noah, Reid's death doesn't change any of the reasons that Luke had for knowing that he and Noah weren't meant to be together.
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md1347
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Post by md1347 on Sept 9, 2010 16:00:59 GMT -5
Noah goes to Snyder pond to see Luke.
Luke: How did you know I would be here? Noah: I know you. This is your place. Luke: Yeah... You do know me. I knew next to nothing about Reid. Noah: Come on. Luke: No, no, It's true. I knew he liked junk food, he loved being the boy wonder surgeon but did I know who to call to ask if he even wanted to be cremated?...No. Noah: You knew him, Luke. You had too. Luke: Why? Noah: Because if you didn't, you wouldn't have loved him. Luke: It's weird. I didn't even know how I felt about him until I told you. Noah: I guess I'm good for something, right?
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Post by anthonyl on Sept 9, 2010 16:15:14 GMT -5
And the point is? Luke didn't know Reid as well as he knew Noah, who he had three years plus, compared to a few months? Okay, point taken. And yet, again, Luke chose the man he wanted to be with. And it wasn't Noah. I'm not sure why this has to be a competition because to me, it's not. Luke loved Noah, they broke up. He fell in love with Reid, Reid died. He still has feelings for Noah, and yet he still wishes Reid were alive so they could live the life they were cheated out on. I guess what it means that Luke loved and does love both men. But if not for fate, he'd be sharing that love with Reid. Whether he and Noah reunite in the wake of Reid's death remains to be seen, I guess.
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HQ75
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Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
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Post by HQ75 on Sept 9, 2010 17:01:41 GMT -5
Who says there is a competition? I don't see anyone implying that. I don't think there is ever anything wrong with going to the text and letting it speak for itself. At the very least, we can all know we are reacting to and talking about the same thing. People often misremember what was said or substitute their own understanding of what they think the characters "meant" for the actual dialogue.
There is nothing wrong with referring to the actual dialogue sometimes. It can be clarifying.
We already know that some of us have differing viewpoints about some things.
But the discussion would be incredible dull if we all just YES'D each other to death.
The dialogue is what it is (such as it is). That's really all we have to go on (one way or the other)
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Post by Difficult Diva on Sept 9, 2010 17:13:47 GMT -5
Just because Reid died, doesn't mean that Luke's current love for him, has died with him. It shouldn't be a competition. I don't see it that way. Luke will always have a special place for Noah in his heart (and his life), but right now, his heart, mind and feelings are about Reid, their love for each other and the loss of what could have been.
It's nice to see and know that Noah can be there, to help his ex during his time of crisis, over the loss of his current love. That takes a lot of courage and that's a good thing to see from Noah.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 9, 2010 17:28:53 GMT -5
Noah acknowledging that his only purpose is being a prop and plot device. We've known that all the time. I think some of us even called it and said that Luke and Noah's scenes last week were more about Luke admitting to himself that he loves Reid, and pretty much nothing to do with advancing a storyline between Luke and Noah, especially since they had that same conversation at least three times already. Luke and Reid didn't know one another long enough to know every little thing about each other, but one thing has been made clear over and over again, they knew that they were in love. Noah has known Luke for three years, it took two years for them to have sex for the first time, and I'm pretty sure that they didn't learn every little detail about one another during the first three or six months of their relationship. I'm also fairly certain that we never got to see Luke and Noah do some of the things that Luke was listing today.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 9, 2010 17:32:00 GMT -5
Who says there is a competition? I don't see anyone implying that. I don't think there is ever anything wrong with going to the text and letting it speak for itself. At the very least, we can all know we are reacting to and talking about the same thing. People often misremember what was said or substitute their own understanding of what they thing the characters "meant" for the actual dialogue. There is nothing wrong with referring to the actual dialogue sometimes. It can be clarifying. What was being clarified? All he posted was the dialog. I got the part about Noah being a prop, Noah knows Luke well, Luke didn't realize how much he loved Reid until a few days ago. Noah saying that if Luke didn't know Reid then he wouldn't have loved him, which is true. I think we all will have our own perceptions of what the scenes mean, that's just what people do. Obviously md1347 thinks the lines mean something, or else he would't have posted them, but he just didn't feel like telling the rest of us why.
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LadyArmand
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Post by LadyArmand on Sept 9, 2010 17:33:50 GMT -5
I think the only people who see all of this as a competition are those looking for a clear cut winner. The problem is there are no winners in this situation no matter what happens next.
I think what these writers were trying in their hamfisted way to do was show why Noah was the best person to comfort Luke right now. It’s that familiarity Luke needed in order to say what he said. I doubt he would have said any of it to anyone else. Having Noah there gave Luke the freedom he needed to be angry, open and vulnerable. It gave him the room to feel everything he needed to feel without feeling he had to be strong for the other person. He knew instinctually that Noah would understand, because of their shared history.
And simply because Luke realizes he was in love with Reid, in no way means he doesn’t still love or isn’t in love with Noah. It only means he realized he had to move on from Noah, and that’s not a good or bad thing, it’s a human thing it happens. There aren’t many people who end up with their first loves, and those that do more often than not have for some period of time separated from them and lived a completely different life.
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md1347
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Post by md1347 on Sept 9, 2010 17:45:14 GMT -5
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LadyArmand
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Post by LadyArmand on Sept 9, 2010 17:45:34 GMT -5
Just to play devils advocate here. From my experience in watching soaps over the past 28 years. Characters that are plot devices usually get found out (i.e. what they‘re doing there gets discovered and they tend to fade away) leave town or die. Just saying.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 9, 2010 17:49:12 GMT -5
Luke told Noah last week that he loves him and always will, but they aren't meant to be together. I remember when the rumor was that Luke would use that line today, in reference to him and Reid. Luke and Noah have grown apart, as Jake said, that happens all of the time in real life, and it is something that is common with first loves. Luke and Noah are just in different places right now, but that doesn't mean that they still can't be friends, even though the last time they were together, Noah said that he didn't want to be friends, I think now he really does realize how that Luke was in love with Reid, and that that doesn't mean that their relationship wasn't important to Luke.
Or, they keep disappearing from the screen without any word about where they are going, that they are going somewhere, or where they have been, as Noah did during the Brian/election storyline and this story.
From my experience, the plot devices just vanish, no word needs to be said, because they rarely had a storyline, and because of that the audience really doesn't need an explanation for why they are gone. They are definitely not the central figure in the last episodes that a show will ever have.
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Post by anthonyl on Sept 9, 2010 17:51:32 GMT -5
True, but Noah has rarely ever been treated as a character in and of himself, part of the reason why he lacks such depth and complexity. That's never been more evident (to me) since the blindness story began and it became mostly about Luke and then Reid when he arrived. Noah has spent more time off camera during this story than off. He was particularly treated like a prop or a plot device to move the Luke/Reid romance along. He was very rarely an active participant in the story.
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LadyArmand
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Post by LadyArmand on Sept 9, 2010 17:59:35 GMT -5
Again this has more to do with the writing, than the character of Noah himself. It seems to me that these writers had difficulty telling more than one story concerning these gay men at a time. So to elevate this, they had Noah fade into the background. The lack of development in a character is always and I mean always the fault of the person writing that character. To blame the character for this (as if he is somehow writing his own story) is very interesting to me.
ETA....
It seems to me from what I’ve read on here so far that no matter what Noah does or doesn’t do, if he hesitates or plunges right in, he’s damned if he does and he’s damned if he doesn’t by those who simply don’t like it. By those who see him as a road block to Luke and Reid’s happiness. As if he never existed everything would have been fine, sometimes I find this is done without including how vastly different Luke and Reid were, or that over the years Luke has actually grown very little.
If you’re going to see the story it’s good to try at least to see all of it.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 9, 2010 18:00:27 GMT -5
I thought the Brian storyline was a glaring example of Noah being used as a prop. Not only was he absent for most of that story, but his personality and wants changed to fit whichever direction they needed the storyline to go. I thought the decision to use him as a prop in that instance was beyond stupid, because it was obvious that the writers were going to put Luke and Noah back together, so why not make him an active participant in the storyline.
This time around was bad too, particularly the weeks leading up to the surgery, when Noah once again vanished, and what should have been his story, became scenes about Luke and Reid. Even after the surgery the few scenes that Noah had had more to do with pushing Luke and Reid together than making Noah a character with his own motivations.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 9, 2010 18:06:25 GMT -5
Again this has more to do with the writing, than the character of Noah himself. It seems to me that these writers had difficulty telling more than one story concerning these gay men at a time. So to elevate this, they had Noah fade into the background. The lack of development in a character is always and I mean always the fault of the person writing that character. To blame the character for this (as if he is somehow writing his own story) is very interesting to me. I'm sorry, but the writing and the character are the same. The character is not real, everything that he does and says came from the writers imaginations. So, while it is true that the character was poorly written, any flaws that he has are his. Any inconsistencies in the character are his, and anything that he says or does, are all a part of who he is. The writers never made it more clearer than in this storyline that they did not want to write for Noah. I don't think that it had anything to do with how many gay men were on the canvas, because they never wrote for Noah and he was always off the canvas. Soap Opera Network keeps a running tally of how many episodes characters are in, and with Noah, even when he and Luke had a storyline, his average during a good month was around four episodes. That was even the case during the election storyline when he and Luke were the only two gay guys around. This was the final big storyline during the 54 year history of this show, and if the writers wanted Noah to be an integral part of the storyline or even give Luke and Noah their own storyline, they would have done so.
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Post by anthonyl on Sept 9, 2010 18:07:34 GMT -5
I thought the Bria storyline was a glaring example of Noah being used as a prop. Not only was he absent for most of that story, but his personality and wants changed to fit whichever direction they needed the storyline to go. I thought the decision to use him as a prop in that instance was beyond stupid, because it was obvious that the writers were going to put Luke and Noah back together, so why not make him an active participant in the storyline. The only thing that didn't make sense to me was Noah not telling Lily and Holden that Luke was drinking. Noah knew it could kill Luke, it always baffled me that Noah never said anything. That, and after weeks for treating Luke like yesterday's news, Noah suddenly out of the blue wanted to get back together with no real reason why. That was a head scratcher too. Beyond that, I've always found Noah's behavior to be within character.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 9, 2010 18:17:36 GMT -5
This is what I'm talking about. The writers did this all the time with Noah, which is why your last sentence is true:
The writers would always give Noah these changes of heart off screen, and not show us how he came to these decisions, which just did not paint Noah in a very good light. The storyline called for Noah to see Brian and Luke kissing, so they had to reunite, and it didn't matter why, or that nothing between them had changed.
The week before Luke and Noah broke up the last time, Noah was so sweet and loving with Luke, they took video, and just had a great time. All of that was in direct contrast to how Noah had been treating Luke for months, but the next time we saw Luke and Noah together again, Noah had decided that he once again needed his space, he had not even bothered to tell Luke that he never left for Dallas, and he wasn't as love dovey as the week before. After seeing Reid and Luke kiss, Noah was so angry with Luke, but the next time they saw one another they were BFF.
We can fan wank about the reasons for the mood changes, but the fact is that the writers never cared enough to explain the changes, there only purpose, for every storyline, was just to move the story further, or act as a device to make Luke act a certain way.
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LadyArmand
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Post by LadyArmand on Sept 9, 2010 18:18:23 GMT -5
By this logic all soap characters are plot devices. In that all of them from time to time have been written so OC that it is hard to recognize them. It has happened to every single soap character not just Noah. Although I can see how some would see him in such a manner. I don’t have problem with that as long as the reason for seeing him is just as clear, which is that most who say that about him, don’t like the character. And therefore I take practically everything said by those people with a not a grain, but with an entire salt mine.
As I’ve said before I could give a damn about who Luke ends up with. At this point to me it more of how these characters were written and treated. And maybe that’s why I see each of them a bit more objectively. I don’t ship either pairing, and therefore what Noah did today comes off as someone who put his own personal feeling about Reid aside, and was there to take care of a person whom a one point the saw himself spending the rest of his life with. He was there to help his friend if he could and support him by simply being there. Even if by some people standards he didn’t rush to do it once he knew Reid was dead. He did it, and he did it in a way that Luke appreciated. He stood there and he listened to Luke, he held him when he needed it, at no time did he allow his personal feelings for Reid (which he never hid to his credit, although some won‘t give it to him) to get in the way of trying to help his hurting friend.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 9, 2010 18:26:23 GMT -5
This is true, and ATWT has been more tha guilty with relying on plot driven storylines, but aside from Noah having to deal with that more than any other character, he also had to deal with not being an integral part of any storylines, other than the one about his coming out and to a point the Ameera one, even when it would have made sense for him to be the main focus of the story. Three dimensional characters are not passive in a storyline, they have their own motivations, and they don't just exist to give the other characters something to act off of. Noah's main purpose has been to do things that cause Luke to take an action, which is why his character changes so much even within the same storyline.
People have been saying that Noah is a prop and a plot device for years, and it has usually come from Nuke fans. It has gone hand in hand with complaints about Noah's lack of screen time. Instances of this can be found in this very thread that date back long before Reid Oliver showed up on screen.
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Post by anthonyl on Sept 9, 2010 18:27:28 GMT -5
I had no issue with Noah's actions today regarding Luke.
But I can understand your thoughts about some views on the character and not taking them seriously because they aren't fans of the character. On the flip side, I have a hard time with many of the views here regarding Noah because they come from a place of complete and utter love for the character and not a balanced, nuanced view of him or even one that seems him as a possibly flawed person. I guess though that's why there's such polarizing views of him.
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LadyArmand
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Post by LadyArmand on Sept 9, 2010 19:16:22 GMT -5
I had no issue with Noah's actions today regarding Luke. But I can understand your thoughts about some views on the character and not taking them seriously because they aren't fans of the character. On the flip side, I have a hard time with many of the views here regarding Noah because they come from a place of complete and utter love for the character and not a balanced, nuanced view of him or even one that seems him as a possibly flawed person. I guess though that's why there's such polarizing views of him. While I understand and agree for the most part with what you said. I must however say to be fair I’ve seen the exact same thing when it comes to some fans of Reid. We have to remember that the word fan comes from the word fanatic and there is a thin line that many fans seem to cross without knowing it on both sides.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 9, 2010 19:22:05 GMT -5
I just want to clear up the issue over Noah being a prop. Reid and Luke were used as props during the last few weeks in regard to Chris and Katie. A prop is someone who's motivations aren't made clear, mainly because they don't have any, and who doesn't take an active role in a storyline. Usually they just appear to do something that will move the storyline forward. As I said, we can look through this thread and find a lot of posts from fans of Noah who have been upset for years that that this was his role. I was never a huge fan of Luke and Noah for this reason, because it just drove home the point that the producers were not invested in the couple. If they had been, Noah would have been fleshed out, Jake would have been put on contract, Noah would have interacted with other people besides Luke, and Noah would have been given his own storylines.
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