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Post by Bonobochick on Mar 30, 2008 12:50:47 GMT -5
Please discuss the characters and their relationship here.
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Post by lolaruns on Mar 30, 2008 13:13:29 GMT -5
It's really depressing how out of touch I'm with this storyline. Before Nuke, I would drop in and out of the show whenever there was an interesting storyline like Lucy and Dusty or Simon and Katie, but somehow the show never *fully* caught on with me. And Nuke, again, lost interest when it felt like their storyline was getting too boring or hokey for me. I keep checking back for news to see if things have changed, but I rarely ever feel like watching the clips. I do like the new spoilers. I hope for something good there.
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Post by harmonium on Mar 30, 2008 13:22:54 GMT -5
Precisely. I have totally detached myself from the storyline since the introduction of Ameera. Gosh. And also with the 'distraction' from Ollie & Christian and also JP & Kieron, I simply can't bring myself to check that pathetic storyline of Nuke. Sad.
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Post by lolaruns on Mar 30, 2008 13:38:40 GMT -5
I've been reading some of the pro and anti Nuke discussion on afterelton.com and somehow it always comes back to choice to me.
It's not that the storylines of VL, AWZ and HO are perfect. But what I walk away with is choice. All those storlyines have their issues, but somehow it hurts less when I know that if I don't like the storyline I can switch the channel and see if I like the other storyline better.
Nuke has a quasi dominating market position. And whether they like it or not they are abusing that position. When I know that I have a choice I don't expect a show to be perfect. From what I can see, German soaps have had their shares of fairly terrible messups, from Vanessa/Deniz/Roman to Tom being involved in some dumb baby storyline with his female bisexual best friend before he left the show. Usually I don't expect soaps to be perfect. It's always going to be hard to write a perfect gay storyline, particularly on such a flawed medium as soaps are. But Nuke makes it worse because you can't change the channel and see if any of the other shows does it better.
And IMO the big difference is that Nuke really feel like they are being held back. At least when these other shows mess up their storyline, I *believe* them that it is normal bad soap writing stupidity that just happens to them the way it happens to straight storylines too. Because soaps often write terrible storylines. But with a lot of those other shows I at least feel like the couples have a fair shot even if they end up falling short. And the more storylines you start the higher the chance that one of them will actually be able to create a great storyline.
Nuke is in an impossible situation where they are more or less required to be perfect because all eyes are on them. BUT to me rather than making me feel sorry for Nuke, it just serves to show how fundamentally unhealthy the whole situation is. It's less that Nuke needs to improve, it's that all those other soaps should try their own gay storylines and try to do it better than Nuke. Create an environment of healthy competition and maybe then Nuke will get their act together too.
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Post by elloreigh on Apr 1, 2008 17:56:40 GMT -5
It's less that Nuke needs to improve, it's that all those other soaps should try their own gay storylines and try to do it better than Nuke. Create an environment of healthy competition and maybe then Nuke will get their act together too. :sigh: If only that were possible... Well, maybe 'possible' isn't the right word. 'Likely to happen at any time in the foreseeable future' is perhaps a better way to put it. We just aren't going to see a sustainable story crafted around same-sex orientation that deals with it honestly and realistically on the U.S. network stations. Anti-gay sentiments are too strong here, and no station/advertisers have the courage (or the deep pockets) necessary to overcome the protests and threats of a boycott. It's may be cliché, but "money talks".
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 2, 2008 23:05:39 GMT -5
I often wonder what really is so different between the US and Europe in this regard. After all, many have pointed out that the situation is hardly perfect in Germany either. Right I'm half-half thinking that there must have been some brave individuals at some point who cared enough about the issue to do something about it (imo it can't be a coincidence that so many of gay content stuff comes from the same production company) and that it's because the whole church/state thing works better here. Meaning that when somebody writes a letter of complaint you can't base it on religious reasoning.
There are probably as many backward Germans being grossed out or writing angry letters but for whatever reason their opinion isn't considered a valid one, regardless of how many parts of the population might share or not share it. It's a strange dynamic. I guess that's what they mean with "salonfähig".
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Post by elloreigh on Apr 3, 2008 11:26:49 GMT -5
I often wonder what really is so different between the US and Europe in this regard. After all, many have pointed out that the situation is hardly perfect in Germany either. Right I'm half-half thinking that there must have been some brave individuals at some point who cared enough about the issue to do something about it (imo it can't be a coincidence that so many of gay content stuff comes from the same production company) and that it's because the whole church/state thing works better here. Meaning that when somebody writes a letter of complaint you can't base it on religious reasoning. There are probably as many backward Germans being grossed out or writing angry letters but for whatever reason their opinion isn't considered a valid one, regardless of how many parts of the population might share or not share it. It's a strange dynamic. I guess that's what they mean with "salonfähig". Going to confess my complete ignorance here: Are TV stations in Germany state owned? In the U.S., the networks are privately owned, but government regulated. That means they're dependent on selling commercial slots to advertisers for their funding, so what happens is that the anti-gay crowd (usually people with religious objections to homosexuality) target the advertisers, who in turn pressure the networks' producers, fearing a boycott of their products. It's a form of non-government imposed censorship. Of course, it's not exactly easy to get the networks to admit that they caved into that kind of pressure.
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 3, 2008 11:31:37 GMT -5
I often wonder what really is so different between the US and Europe in this regard. After all, many have pointed out that the situation is hardly perfect in Germany either. Right I'm half-half thinking that there must have been some brave individuals at some point who cared enough about the issue to do something about it (imo it can't be a coincidence that so many of gay content stuff comes from the same production company) and that it's because the whole church/state thing works better here. Meaning that when somebody writes a letter of complaint you can't base it on religious reasoning. There are probably as many backward Germans being grossed out or writing angry letters but for whatever reason their opinion isn't considered a valid one, regardless of how many parts of the population might share or not share it. It's a strange dynamic. I guess that's what they mean with "salonfähig". Going to confess my complete ignorance here: Are TV stations in Germany state owned? In the U.S., the networks are privately owned, but government regulated. That means they're dependent on selling commercial slots to advertisers for their funding, so what happens is that the anti-gay crowd (usually people with religious objections to homosexuality) target the advertisers, who in turn pressure the networks' producers, fearing a boycott of their products. It's a form of non-government imposed censorship. Of course, it's not exactly easy to get the networks to admit that they caved into that kind of pressure. Word to your post but especially the last bit. It chaps my hide that PGP is still saying there is no kissing ban and they're not pandering to anti-gay groups when it is clear that they are to some degree.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 3, 2008 12:22:47 GMT -5
I'm not 100% sure about the German tv structure, but usually you have the state/government channels (kinda like PBS) like ARD (das Erste, airs Verbotene Liebe) and ZDF in Germany and ORF1 and ORF2 in Austria. Then you have the private channels like Pro7, RTL (airs AWZ), RTL2 or Vox who rely on ratings and commercials just like every other channel. They even have an HBO type of pay channel called Premiere, but as far as I know they don't do any original programming.
It used to be that you could get the state channels via an antenna and had to buy cable or satellite to get the private channels (and yet another special box if you wanted premiere), but I'm not sure if that is still the case. I *think* various states (like let's say Bavaria or Mecklenburg Vorpommern or what they are all called) have their own smaller state own channels that cover local stuff.
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Post by elloreigh on Apr 3, 2008 22:00:57 GMT -5
It chaps my hide that PGP is still saying there is no kissing ban and they're not pandering to anti-gay groups when it is clear that they are to some degree. To a big degree, I'd say. No kissing in over six months and they marry off one of the gay characters (even if it is a sham immigration marriage). No credibility whatsoever on the denials, in my book. Edit: Still, it could be a LOT worse. At least it's not the twice a year extremely awkward hugs we used to get with Dynasty every other year between Stephen Carrington and his temporary boyfriends. At least the affection that is shown on ATWT comes off as genuine and not forced. Cool site, by the way - I appreciate all the work you've done!
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Post by elloreigh on Apr 3, 2008 22:05:53 GMT -5
Thanks, too - to lolaruns for the info on German TV.
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Post by GayTime on Apr 4, 2008 0:16:56 GMT -5
I'm not 100% sure about the German tv structure, but usually you have the state/government channels (kinda like PBS) like ARD (das Erste, airs Verbotene Liebe) and ZDF in Germany and ORF1 and ORF2 in Austria. Then you have the private channels like Pro7, RTL (airs AWZ), RTL2 or Vox who rely on ratings and commercials just like every other channel. They even have an HBO type of pay channel called Premiere, but as far as I know they don't do any original programming. It used to be that you could get the state channels via an antenna and had to buy cable or satellite to get the private channels (and yet another special box if you wanted premiere), but I'm not sure if that is still the case. I *think* various states (like let's say Bavaria or Mecklenburg Vorpommern or what they are all called) have their own smaller state own channels that cover local stuff. i'd like to elaborate on that, if i may - all lola says is true (except: every state has their own 'regional channel' which used to be kind of like PBS, but is now more or less just like DasErste programming wise, but with a focus on its region). it is very important to note that the public channels do NOT define as state owned, but 'independent'. in fact the argument is that because germans have to pay a license fee and tv is not funded through a state tax, it guarantees that it's not in the hand of the state. most germans are not exactly happy about the fee, but in a twisted way, it secures that stuff like VERBOTENE LIEBE can air 'as is'. overall, while we germans are far from being a perfect crowd, i think we're better at remote controlling - if we don't like what we see, we don't complain about it, we simply switch the channel (well, that's not even true, since most americans i actually know are just the same - let's just say germany simply doesn't have a strong religious right). there is regulation, by the way - but it focuses far more on violence than it does on sex.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 4, 2008 0:30:34 GMT -5
Yes, the BBC would probably have been a better comparison than PBS (except the German channels aren't as high quality) as in they compete with regular programming, but they are partly funded by the fees so there is some leeway in what kind of ratings they get.
And because they are funded by the fees (which incidentally are extremely hard to get around since they also cover radio at least in Austria) they are also supposed to have a "Bildungsauftrag" meaning a mandat to educate and inform the public, which usually is understood as them being expected to produce quality product and be less under the control of advertising (for example in Austria ORF1 and ORF2 don't have commercial breaks while the show is going on, only between one show and the next; MUCHLY loved by me.). So when they air something really trashy there is usually a public discussion iwhether a channel with a "Bildungsauftrag" should air that [that usually covers creepy or dumb reality shows rather than something sexual or violent]. On the flip side it also means that they can air stuff which isn't as popular because it falls under "Bildungsauftrag" [again, this is usually more likely to be documentaries and the like rather than Verbotene Liebe].
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Post by Bonobochick on Apr 4, 2008 4:18:52 GMT -5
overall, while we germans are far from being a perfect crowd, i think we're better at remote controlling - if we don't like what we see, we don't complain about it, we simply switch the channel (well, that's not even true, since most americans i actually know are just the same - let's just say germany simply doesn't have a strong religious right). there is regulation, by the way - but it focuses far more on violence than it does on sex. Which is how is should be. America is so the opposite where sensuality & sexuality are heavily censored but violence is "ok". Sad. I am still waiting for the AFA to be be offended by all the prostitution, pre-marital sex, illegitimate babies, adultery, and murder on soaps as they are by two boys kissing.
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Post by kyle on Apr 4, 2008 11:33:15 GMT -5
out of curiosity here in N.A. just before a program starts with extreme violence or nudity, or course language, there is a warning message for viewer discretion.. does this same type of warning exist on the other side of the pond?
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 4, 2008 11:46:43 GMT -5
Good question. I don't think I have ever seen the "Viewer discretion is advised" thing over here (but then again, I haven't owned a regular tv in ages). I don't even know if they use the ones from an American show when they are showing US shows.
I know that Austria puts a tiny X next to their logo (but their logo is really tiny, particularly compared to the German logos). So instead it says X ORF 1 instead of ORF 1. I'm not sure how they decide who to give that X to. Looking at their website the things they gave an X to were Weeds and the movie Skulls 2. They also gave one to Wolffs Revier which is a cop show.
You gotta know, German tv is much more casual about nudity. I once had an American exchange student staying at my house. We wanted to show him some normal Austrian tv and so we watched Kommissar Rex a hugely popular cop show about a German Shepard police dog (therefore popular with kids too). The episode started with a woman dropping her robe, a long loving shot of her backside (fully body shot) and then she joined a satanistic ritual. I can't remember if there were breasts too, but there might have been. As you can imagine my Southern Baptist guest was slightly traumatized.
Amusingly, German channels will buy a lot of shows from HBO and cable channels (like Sex and The City or Six Feet Under or Queer As Folk) and show it during prime time, but South Park is only shown on MTV or around midnight on the Austrian channel.
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Post by neenski on Apr 4, 2008 12:00:36 GMT -5
I don't think I have ever seen the "Viewer discretion is advised" thing over here (but then again, I haven't owned a regular tv in ages). I don't even know if they use the ones from an American show when they are showing US shows. No, there usually isn't - it's very rare that I will see a 'Diese Sendung ist für Jugendliche nicht geeignet' (This show is not suitable for youths) sign, but then, I don't watch much regular TV these days. *shrugs* And as for using the ones from an American show, definitely no. Also, I don't think I've ever seen a nudity or violence warning on German TV. German TV is much more laissez-faire than US TV, it's sort of expected that the parents know which programs are suitable for their kids and which ones aren't. Like, if it's on at a very late hour - duh, there's a reason for that! And if you don't like what you see - just switch the channel or switch the TV off. Where's the problem? *g*
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Post by kyle on Apr 4, 2008 12:48:07 GMT -5
must be our north American.. dare I use the word anal views of sex. Again, I am referring to cable broadcasts. The specialty channels are more open to showing sex but they still use the viewer discretion warnings. Sometimes, on Canadian TV channels they will go a litter further and use cuss words or show some skin, where the same show on American channels will either bleep out the word or do a voice over and clean it up.
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Post by susurrus on Apr 4, 2008 17:55:39 GMT -5
Amusingly, German channels will buy a lot of shows from HBO and cable channels (like Sex and The City or Six Feet Under or Queer As Folk) and show it during prime time, but South Park is only shown on MTV or around midnight on the Austrian channel. Actually, Queer as Folk was never shown during prime time (it was always on sometime after midnight) but I think The L Word was shown around 10pm. Never understood why the lesbians got a better air time than the gays.
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alex
New Member
Posts: 71
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Post by alex on Apr 5, 2008 9:18:58 GMT -5
hi, In France we have small signs on bottom of the screen if the program can schock minor. like this : There's 4 : -10 : not for kids under 10. We can see the programs in the middle of the day -12: can't see the show before 8:30 PM -16: extreme violence and Erotic show (after 10:30 PM) -18: extreme violence (really extreme !!!) and pornographic show. Only some channels, can show this sort. They must have "lock system". And it's only between Midnight and 5:00 AM. For exemple, Skins is -12 and the movie 300 is -12 too (not extreme violence !)
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cwxyzallen
New Member
Cute, but kind of evil
Posts: 46
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Post by cwxyzallen on Apr 6, 2008 5:53:15 GMT -5
We have some strange rules here in the UK regarding even the mention of sex. Channel 4 (who show Hollyoaks) show comedies like Frasier, Will and Grace and Friends at around 9:00 am - but the shows are cut to pieces to exclude any mention of sex or any slighty risque words.
The cuts are brutal and often you are left with the opening line of a gag and then it simply jumps to the reaction shot after the gag with the audience laughing for no apparent reason.
There is a well known "watershed" at 9:00pm after which they can show curse words and some nudity, but it is not even clear what the rules for daytime TV are.
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Post by kyle on Apr 6, 2008 10:08:36 GMT -5
hi, In France we have small signs on bottom of the screen if the program can schock minor. like this : There's 4 : -10 : not for kids under 10. We can see the programs in the middle of the day -12: can't see the show before 8:30 PM -16: extreme violence and Erotic show (after 10:30 PM) -18: extreme violence (really extreme !!!) and pornographic show. Only some channels, can show this sort. They must have "lock system". And it's only between Midnight and 5:00 AM. For exemple, Skins is -12 and the movie 300 is -12 too (not extreme violence !) We also have a similar system in addition to warning not to mention the stupid station logo that remains in the corner of the screen the entire time the program is airing, then magically disappears during the commercials. Most of the time these logos are huge. Oh.. and while we're at it.. they also have banners advertising another show, which most of the time take up half of the bottom of the screen. All of this and then the commericals oy.. sometimes lasting at least three minutes or more.. It used to be a 30 minute program was about 22 mintues in length, with the commericals making up the rest of the time. I swear, the 30 minute program lasts about 18 - 19 minutes in length. I remember when I went to Portugal back the the late 80's I was so impressed that all the commercials were run between shows.
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Post by GayTime on Apr 6, 2008 10:21:18 GMT -5
Nearly every broadcast in Germany is also submitted to the FSF (Freiwillige Selbstkontrolle Fernsehen - Voluntary Self-Regulation Board for Television), where it gets a rating. Violence and anti-social behavior is what they are looking for. Those programs will get a (mandatory) warning at the beginning of the airing that it 'IS NOT SUITABLE FOR PERSONS UNDER THE AGE OF 16' or, in extreme cases 'UNDER THE AGE OF 18'. Unlike North American TV, that warning will not get repeated. Anything that airs between 6am and 10pm on German television is assumed to be suitable for family viewing. In addition to that, every broadcaster has their own 'Jugengschutzbeauftragter' (a consultant on protection of the youth) who makes a decision whether submission to the FSF is necessary at all. Most other German channels do the stupid 'YOU'RE WATCHING: / COMING UP NEXT:' banners during a show, too. Luckily, DasErste is public :-)
In general, I think there's stronger emphasis on parents' responsibilit across most of Europe. Unlike in the US, they don't think that your conservative beliefs need to be protected from evil, but that if you feel that way you wouldn't be watching a show like VERBOTENE LIEBE in the first place.
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Post by lolaruns on Apr 6, 2008 10:41:41 GMT -5
Yeah, according to FSF everything between 6 am and 8 pm (so VL and AWZ fall under that) is suitable for children under 12). 8pm to 10pm for children older than 12. 10pm till 11pm for children older than 16 and 11pm to 6am is late night and for people older than 18.
They actually put their guidlines up for download and their section on the portrayal of sex seems to focus mostly on that you can't portray peer pressure situations where somebody is pressured into having sex in a positive light. Seriously, they have like 15 sub issues and they are all about describing versions of "light" rape like "sexual actions not being performed out of a mutual wish but on the wish of just one person and that being portrayed as justified" or "sexual acts because of the abuse of power or money without that being portrayed as a negative thing", "coarse langauge being used to describe sex acts in a way that demeans human beings or the gender of a person", "certain sexual acts not just being portrayed but being portrayed though the context as them being preferable to other acts".
They have one bit about how types of behavior that going against the experiences and expectations of normalcy of teenagers being portrayed as normal. However, the same point segues again against things that might put performance pressure on people growing up.
They even have a bit against portraying "stereotypical gender roles with disctiminating modes of behavior" which might be mistaking as normal and accepted by people growing up.
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cwxyzallen
New Member
Cute, but kind of evil
Posts: 46
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Post by cwxyzallen on Apr 6, 2008 14:41:11 GMT -5
Programs here in the UK are simply edited to remove ANY adult content before 7:00pm - no warning no explanation (so, for example a channel showing a James Bond film in the afternoon will cut it to ribbons and remove most of the violence and sexual innuendo)
After 7:00pm a James Bond movie would survive mostly intact.
We then get a spoken message about strong language, or sex or or violence, but programs requiring such warnings are only shown after 9:00pm - known as the "watershed".
It goes something like :
"And now here on Channel 4 is "XXXX" which contains strong language from the start" - If there is no strong language before a commercial break, we get the warning at the start of the program segment containing the naughty words.
For sex the wording is " contains scenes of a sexual nature" and violence is "contains scenes which some viewers may find disturbing".
But I think that the levels at which the warnings are issued is quite high compared to the US. We seem to be able to say everything except the f word and c**t without the warning.
I downloaded lots of the episodes of War At Home - many of which got a "Viewer discretion is advised" message due to the subject matter itself - but UK TV would have shown ANY of those episodes without any modification or warning after 7:00pm.
After 11:00pm, really the only thing that can't be shown here is an erect penis - but erections are totally banned under British law - even porno movies bought from "Sex shops" cannot show an erection.
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