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Post by amber80 on May 21, 2008 3:35:05 GMT -5
Well, again: I love both pairings... Loved JPC then, love JPK now. JPC had lost of angst and the storyline was greatly paced and had a great build up. I didn't really love Craig as a character; he was a bit too selfish for my taste, but JP loved him, so that made me happy. (So I didn't love Craig as a character, but I definitely love JPC as a couple.) Sometimes I have the feeling though people are idolising the GD character a bit too much; he wasn't always a nice person to JP or Sarah. And yes they had chemistry; I agree with you on that. But I also think JPK has chemistry. The one doesn't exclude the other. I'm just happy to see both...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2008 7:29:30 GMT -5
After browsing a little through this thread, I feel like the Craig-JP storyline is getting such a beatdown that I couldn’t help but give my personal take on it. I loved the Craig-JP storyline. For me, it’s one of the very few teenage/gay storyline that was told with quite a bit of realism, especially in a soap. It was different without overdoing it. It was passionate, angsty, emotional, infuriating, exasperating, touching, hurtful, human, young, genuine, and most of all, it was never perfectly comfortable. I liked it for what it was. I even liked that I couldn’t go “awww” over them for more than 5 seconds at a time. I liked that it apparently galvanized and divided the audience at the same time, and all for the right reasons. It made sense without making a lot of sense. Even in the instant way they became friends. It was a love that brought out the best as much as the worst in each character. Sometimes it felt like the story of 2 kids playing a grown-ups game without a map. It was a love that was as mature as it was young, with all the good and all the bad. When they were together, their worst traits would come out, making one wonder why they would even bother, and yet, seeing them together, it still strangely clicked. Craig was yearning to take too much and JP was willing to give too much. And after having seen some of the old clips of Craig pre-JP and pre-Sarah, it really is amazing how his worst came out with JP, the one he probably loved too much against his will. Craig used to be the giver in his other relationship(s). Basically, it was a love story that one can remember like something etched onto your skin. Sweetly painful and painfully sweet. I thought it was a greatly told story of love not being enough, especially when one (or more) person’s head gets totally messed up by that love that they fear so much for internal and external reasons. And it was a story that captured well the essence of unforgettable “first love”, the kind that might shape up your future relationships in one direction or the other. I liked that Craig exasperatingly maintained through and through that he was straight … but loved JP. I liked it because there are people like that, and for them, it makes sense (at least for a while), even though some of us roll our eyes at that. I liked and found intriguing that he excluded even bisexuality, being more comfortable thinking of himself as just JP-sexual, even though he might have been wrong about that as well – and I liked that we would never really know about that one. As if it was his way of making sense of it all. I liked that Craig was a troubled and confused asshole and that unlike in some other typical TV storylines, he wasn’t suddenly made to think that he was gay, and perfectly happy and in love for ever and ever - after one or many tries - by JP’s magical penis. I liked being infuriated and frustrated by Craig. I liked that I could still care about him outside of JP and of Sarah, and yet feel no overwhelming sympathy for him. More than anything, I liked how the actors did their job on this story. I had seen some interviews of Guy Burnet and had been annoyed at his stated discomfort with the intimate scenes, but I somehow never truly despised him and it never took away from my enjoyment of the storyline, surprisingly enough. I guess it’s because I felt that he more than showed up on those scenes. He also had the tougher job, being turned very fast into the major abusive asshole in all of it. He made the audience believe that he truly felt for JP, no matter how screwed up he was and how cruelly he often treated the object of his intense feelings. I wouldn’t say that I’d dismiss Guy’s acting prior to the love story, but I would mostly see James’s great acting. But once their story kicked in, Guy to me truly rose to the occasion more than ever. I’m probably going to get attacked for this, but I’ll even go as far as to say that Guy seemed more – how to phrase this – invested/giving in the intimate scenes. Not on the emotion level, because James Sutton is obviously fantastic, but on the physical kissing level. James Sutton is indeed a terrific young actor, but up until JP got involved with Craig (and even after Craig), the kissing scenes with JP were kind of a dud, no matter how enthusiastically the JP character would go into it. It felt lacking once the actual lip-lock occurred. The first time I saw James actually open his mouth with ease or naturally part his lips while kissing a guy was with Guy. I finally also see him let go more on that front with the Kieron character in the most recent clips I just saw, which makes intimate scenes between the two much nicer now to me. I don’t know, it’s a little pet peeve I have, I guess. It has thrown me out of otherwise decent movies on occasion. Maybe it takes James a little while (of knowing the other actor) to get in that comfort zone with the other actor, I don’t know. I think that’s why I never felt too much regarding JP-Spike, no matter how much healthier the relationship was and how hot I found Spike. Because the boy was a hottie in such a non-superficial way. I loved his voice, the way he spoke, his self-confidence, his vulnerability, the way he carried himself, his sense of humor, and… um, sorry, got a little carried away. Anyway, back to JP-Craig. I liked the way it started and I loved the way it ended. I loved that breaking up was the healthiest thing they’d ever done in their relationship. I liked that it made sense for Craig not to kiss JP in front of everybody yet; I would have been seriously disappointed by the storyline if it had gone the other way. “Don’t leave me” is one the most perfectly delivered and telling lines of this entire story. The actors did a very fine job. I liked that Craig left alone (and [small voice] that Guy had to leave for that to happen [/small voice]). I don’t think I would be fine with a fairy tale ending after one or even 2 years. Craig is a character that needs work, especially post-JP, and he has to do a lot of it alone IMO. I personally would have liked to see him screw up, bang his head against the wall and learn (or not learn at all) in Dublin. I liked seeing Craig outside of the JP-Sarah drama, and I would have enjoyed seeing him in that position again with new people but this time with the JP baggage and, unlike JP, with no support whatsoever. I can’t believe it took such a (perfectly) imperfect love story to make me kind of buy the concept of soul mates at the romantic level on TV, especially when the 2 characters involved are still so young and still have so much to experience. Especially when their story is so flawed. Especially also when I don’t necessarily see or want them to end up together in some kind of fairy tale ending. I usually feel like shows are trying to beat me over the head with the “soul mate” thing and force feed it to me, but on this one, I kind of saw it. I just don’t think Craig and JP having such a strong history or even being soul mates should be a guarantee that they have to end up together, whether it’s in a near or distant future. It would take really great writing, delivery and acting for me to buy into the sunset ending fans are apparently awaiting so much, especially if it’s after only one year (or even 2). I’m not saying they’re not capable of doing it, but I wonder how they would manage to do it without me feeling like they kind of killed a perfectly good story as it was, and stomped on my love for it in the process. At the very least, if they get back together, I wouldn’t want it to be in a “sunset/fairy tale forever and ever ending” kind of way. For me it would be too high a price to pay, and it would take too much away from a uniquely told story. I’m not even sure I would buy or would like Craig to come back having done a 180. Similarly, I wouldn’t want JP to sacrifice more of his own self. After all, one of the most interesting things about their story is that they loved each other as they were, no matter how strongly and desperately they each wished along the way that the other would be completely different (Craig wishing JP were a girl and JP wishing Craig were a proud gay man), which in the end is exactly what tore them apart. Well, I think I just realized that this just might be the reason why I kind of buy them as soul mates. It’s as if they were meant to love each other, whether as friends or as lovers. They were just meant to feel for each other, from the very first time they met. However, being someone’s soul mate doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to be the love of their life. Two soul mates don’t always a viable relationship make. There’s so much more that has to and will come into play. There you have it. Obviously, I really liked this story, even for the things I didn’t like about it, lol. As for Kieron-JP story, I don’t mind it. It’s funny because on paper, to me, it seems to have all the adjectives I used for the JP-Craig story as far as being compelling and all the necessary ingredients and obstacles, but onscreen, it just doesn’t pull me in or push on my emotions, good or bad, as much. But like with Craig, I also don’t see JP and Kieron lasting that long realistically, even though there’s much less denial and dysfunction on Kieron’s part. I just don’t, no matter how actually cute I think they’re being. I hope the spoilers I just read about them as to how it might all end are not true though. Sometimes Hollyoaks can go a little too far on the drama. I just hope JP gets as much out of it as possible, and that the writers make him in the future truly question what attracts him about seemingly unattainable guys and secretive affairs. That would be a good coming of age and interesting conscious decision to awaken (or not) to true happiness for the character. That is if James Sutton stays on. *Sigh* I don’t know why my introductory posts on new boards are always so long, sorry. I blame it on acute case of procrastination and sleep deprivation. I vaguely recognize some names here from a QAF board long, long ago. Memories. Now that’s what you would call terrible and terribly told storylines on a soap about gay men (the US, not the UK version) – that’s right, CowLip, I still refuse to call that thing a drama. But let’s not end on this sour note. I’m not a big poster usually, as in I don’t usually post often – though I’ve just posted a two months-worth of ramblings. But this seems like a pretty cool place. So, hello!
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Post by amber80 on May 21, 2008 8:27:21 GMT -5
I absolutely adore your post macari! Welcome here and please post more stuff: it's a really interesting read!! O boy, I'm soooo glad I turn out not to be the only one who thinks this way... Because I absolutely love James as an actor, but the kissing has always bothered me. Like he didn't went for it completely and that was a shame, because it made it a bit less believable for me sometimes. I guess it's a little pet peeve I have too...
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Post by Difficult Diva on May 21, 2008 10:19:19 GMT -5
Welcome, Macari. I absolutely agree on all the things that you mentioned in your posting on the couple. As I stated before, I loved the pairing of JPC, when I started watching it, but there came a point in time, that I knew the relationship wasn't going to work and that was long before I knew that Guy Burnet was leaving the show in September. How JPC storyline was written, there was no way that they could ever truly be together as a couple. So many bad things had happened between them (along with the OTHER two people that they hurt during their affair: Sarah and Spike), along with them not being able to communicate with each other, about what they each wanted from the other, made the relationship impossible to "have a happy ending in Dublin". I just don’t think Craig and JP having such a strong history or even being soul mates should be a guarantee that they have to end up together, whether it’s in a near or distant future. It would take really great writing, delivery and acting for me to buy into the sunset ending fans are apparently awaiting so much, especially if it’s after only one year (or even 2). I’m not saying they’re not capable of doing it, but I wonder how they would manage to do it without me feeling like they kind of killed a perfectly good story as it was, and stomped on my love for it in the process. At the very least, if they get back together, I wouldn’t want it to be in a “sunset/fairy tale forever and ever ending” kind of way. For me it would be too high a price to pay, and it would take too much away from a uniquely told story.I’m not even sure I would buy or would like Craig to come back having done a 180. Similarly, I wouldn’t want JP to sacrifice more of his own self. After all, one of the most interesting things about their story is that they loved each other as they were, no matter how strongly and desperately they each wished along the way that the other would be completely different (Craig wishing JP were a girl and JP wishing Craig were a proud gay man), which in the end is exactly what tore them apart. Well, I think I just realized that this just might be the reason why I kind of buy them as soul mates. It’s as if they were meant to love each other, whether as friends or as lovers. They were just meant to feel for each other, from the very first time they met. However, being someone’s soul mate doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to be the love of their life. Two soul mates don’t always a viable relationship make. There’s so much more that has to and will come into play.There you have it. Obviously, I really liked this story, even for the things I didn’t like about it, lol. Macari - If I could cast my vote on how JP "chooses" his future, if and when he eventually leaves Chester and Hollyoaks, because it will happen, I would like to see him make the journey on his own. I guess, most tv viewers call it the "Kelly Taylor Choice". Macari - My online name is still the same from those long ago years. I can definitely remember the exact moment when the "crap hit the fan" when "the Britin Wedding" didn't happen.
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Post by Bonobochick on May 21, 2008 11:04:27 GMT -5
The less said about QAF-USA, the better. Talk about an absolute shitpile. Interesting post, macari. I agree with a lot of what you said. For me, I love McDean... but I also love McHobbs. Two completely different love stories for JP yet both will probably end in heartbreak for him. *sigh* Even if Craig comes back, I am ok either way on that, it would take more than a few episodes to make it even remotely plausible in showing that he's changed and can accept being in love with a man. re James & kissing: he doesn't really open his mouth. That's why the kissing looks like it does. He tries to keep his mouth as closed as possible when he's kissing another guy. It doesn't bother me but I had noticed that. When you compare it to kisses on the other soaps - even ATWT's few kisses - it's totally apparent.
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Post by cakefan on May 21, 2008 12:12:11 GMT -5
VERY insightful post Macari. Especially the bit about the soulmates. I had one just like that when I was 19 - the JP/Craig storyline really hit a nerve with me for that reason and it really pisses me off when people (often gay) say the storyline wasn't realistic, that people don't turn gay like that and if they do they should admit to being gay already, not jp-sexual... To me - then a "confused" teenager - now somewhat more comfortable with the labelling and calling myself bi - that is always so hurtful. It is not a question of black or white. There are many shades of g(r)ay. The JP/C storyline showed this beautifully. And you, Macari, got to the bottom of it with the soulmate-remark. Sometimes it is better to let the soulmate go. I did. Attended her wedding years later. I skipped the ceremony, couldn't bear it. Looking at her dancing with her husband ripped my heart out. I wanted to be the one dancing with her, I wanted to be the one to ride away in the carriage with her. But I also knew that we'd 've made eachother deeply unhappy. Some relationships are just too much. (teardrop falls down on the keyboard, sniff). I had always hoped for a SE for JP/C but I think your post might just make it possible for me to accept it if they don't.
Re James & kissing: he is indeed the one doing the uncomfortable kissing. Keeps his mouth closed and just moves his head around to give you the impression it is passionate (which it is not). Sometimes he even kisses Guy next to his mouth (Jake has done that with James too). So I agree, people shouldn't be touchy about Guy being uncomfortable doing the scenes or being uncomfortable watching himself kissing guys on screen. At least he gave himself in the performance, opening his mouth, sticking out his lips, and letting them linger for a while. The only two kisses which seem weird from him are the first two, and that is how they were written in my opinion...
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Post by Bonobochick on May 21, 2008 12:24:49 GMT -5
VERY insightful post Macari. Especially the bit about the soulmates. I had one just like that when I was 19 - the JP/Craig storyline really hit a nerve with me for that reason and it really pisses me off when people (often gay) say the storyline wasn't realistic, that people don't turn gay like that and if they do they should admit to being gay already, not jp-sexual... To me - then a "confused" teenager - now somewhat more comfortable with the labelling and calling myself bi - that is always so hurtful. It is not a question of black or white. There are many shades of g(r)ay. The JP/C storyline showed this beautifully. And you, Macari, got to the bottom of it with the soulmate-remark. Sometimes it is better to let the soulmate go. I did. Attended her wedding years later. I skipped the ceremony, couldn't bear it. Looking at her dancing with her husband ripped my heart out. I wanted to be the one dancing with her, I wanted to be the one to ride away in the carriage with her. But I also knew that we'd 've made eachother deeply unhappy. Some relationships are just too much. (teardrop falls down on the keyboard, sniff). I had always hoped for a SE for JP/C but I think your post might just make it possible for me to accept it if they don't. Re James & kissing: he is indeed the one doing the uncomfortable kissing. Keeps his mouth closed and just moves his head around to give you the impression it is passionate (which it is not). Sometimes he even kisses Guy next to his mouth (Jake has done that with James too). So I agree, people shouldn't be touchy about Guy being uncomfortable doing the scenes or being uncomfortable watching himself kissing guys on screen. At least he gave himself in the performance, opening his mouth, sticking out his lips, and letting them linger for a while. The only two kisses which seem weird from him are the first two, and that is how they were written in my opinion... Yea, sometimes soulmates are not healthy for you. I went through 10 years of drama with a guy who... well, long story short the end result is that you can love someone and be connected on levels that you cannot explain nor don't always make sense but that doesn't mean it's healthy for either of you. Thing is, it can wrench the soul but you have to move on. Maybe one or both parties will grow, maybe not, but sometimes soulmate isn't ever after. JP is trying to move on and for all we know, so is Craig. It doesn't detract from the beautifully told love story that they're not together now nor that they may never be together. RE: James & the kissing... glad it's not just me who noticed that closed mouth thing, cakefan. I didn't pay much attetnion to the head thing, though. Hmmm, I will have to look for it next time. In the kissing aspect, HOL could take a page from ATWT, VL and AWZ. I still think the guys are totally selling the love stories -both past and present - but the kissing thing is noticeable.
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on May 21, 2008 15:59:12 GMT -5
Here's why I always had issues with McDean:
Even though they didn't actually show us the moments where John Paul fell in love with Craig, I could believe John Paul loved Craig.
I never understood why Craig loved John Paul. The only reasons I could come up with were he didn't want John Paul to be happy with anyone but him. Since this was also true for Sarah (every time she came close to ending the relationship, he'd reel her back in), I saw their relationship as being about Craig's insecurities, the insecurities of a young man who had, prior to this, never really been loved or wanted by much of anyone.
Craig did terrible things to Sarah and to John Paul. And again, we never really got to see his motivations, beyond his being scared and being a control freak. The moments he enjoyed with John Paul were always private moments. Never once do I remember Craig looking at his family swoon over Sarah and think, "If only they could feel this way about John Paul." Never once did I believe Craig would have been miserable with Sarah if he truly did break it off with John Paul. He seemed perfectly happy to go away with her.
I think they sacrificed too much of Craig's feelings for JP in order to prop up Sarah, to make sure Sarah wasn't a complete fool.
We never got to see the moment where Craig himself chose to end the lies. He did turn Sarah down and go against his family's wishes, but the actual moment of coming out was forced. He was still so reluctant with John Paul after the coming out that it still seemed like he was forced to go through a relationship with John Paul, almost like he'd lost everything else, he didn't want to lose the scraps he had left.
So that was always what was missing for me in McDean:
Why did Craig love John Paul? Was this any kind of romantic love, or was this simply obsession, an obsession that caused him to do cruel, horrible things to both John Paul and Sarah? Did he ever really want a happy ending with John Paul, or did he really just see John Paul as his secret life, a way to feel even more loved and needed?
This question mark is compounded for me by the reaction post-McDean, which has often been that poor Craig was abandoned by John Paul, nothing John Paul faces can compare to the love he had with Craig.
There's this entire fantasy out there about McDean that never matches up to the scenes I saw. I never really did feel that "moment", the moment where Craig and John Paul would ever truly have a chance as anything other than an affair which left both young men seriously scarred and frightened of what life and love can be. I ended up seeing the relationship as something to get past, not something to ever want to resume.
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Post by Difficult Diva on May 21, 2008 16:10:06 GMT -5
Wow, carld2. Your post has brought up a lot of thoughts. I'm definitely going to take my time in responding to it.
btw - Thanks to all the very interesting postings within the past 24 hours. I thought I was tired of talking about this particular topic of John-Paul and Craig's past relationship.
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Post by cakefan on May 21, 2008 17:59:17 GMT -5
Q: "Even though they didn't actually show us the moments where John Paul fell in love with Craig, I could believe John Paul loved Craig. "
A: Maybe there aren’t moments, always. Falling in love with your best friend is not as if a bolt of lightning strikes you. It’s just doing stuff together (having lunch, joining the football team) and enjoying time together (playing fussball, hanging out) and finding out you have things in common (fantasy football team, wanting to travel coast-to-coast in the US), looking out for eachother (do I need to sum up the times?) and encouraging eachother (to ask girls out on dates etc) and then at a certain moment you realize that you’re jealous of the boy- or girlfriend. That is how JP found out, he got jealous of Sarah, and that is how Craig found out, he got VERY jealous of Spike. It’s not that you don’t want to share, it’s that you find out that your love for that person has been steadily growing and it has become much bigger than you realized. <\b>
Q: I never understood why Craig loved John Paul. The only reasons I could come up with were he didn't want John Paul to be happy with anyone but him.
A: I don’t think that is true – he wanted JP to be happy with Hannah for example (before he knew JP didn’t love Hannah, after that he was looking out for Hannah). This was before the whole possibility of being gay (either for JP or him) entered his head. Also, take a look at the “guys night out episode” – he tells JP how much he likes him and why in that episode. JP is like a brother to him. He looks out for him. They’re going to the US together. They get eachother. I think one of the reasons that Craig loves JP is indeed also the fact that JP loves him so much, that JP is always there for him, it makes him feel good to be loved like that. But it’s not that he doesn’t want JP to be happy with anyone else but him. It’s that he wants to be that person who makes JP happy. That might seem a small difference but it’s big, trust me. I want to see my soul mate happy. And it is good to know that she is happy. But when I see her with her husband, I wish it were me putting that smile on her face. Some other reasons that have been hinted at: JP stands by him, JP makes him feel safe, JP makes him calmer, he feels connected to him.
Q:Since this was also true for Sarah (every time she came close to ending the relationship, he'd reel her back in), I saw their relationship as being about Craig's insecurities, the insecurities of a young man who had, prior to this, never really been loved or wanted by much of anyone.
A: Sarah, well, I think he loves her mostly because they look good together, everyone is jealous of him when he is with her, the supermodel. He loves her but he mostly loves the image of him with her. He loves her for the sex (with JP “it’s different […] it’s not just the sex”) and for the fact that she is a girl, the most "normal" thing in the world. He keeps trying to get Sarah back because she is the ideal cover for him and JP. And because deep down he hopes that he can make himself love her enough to actually marry her and be straight. Every time he is with JP, he tries to get closer to her afterwards. He has sex with JP, next day he forces himself upon Sarah and wants to go back to her place to have sex. He has sex with JP again, he tries to win her back the next day. JP talks about them being a proper couple, that scares him, so he takes Sarah back when she asks him to and goes away on holiday so he's not confronted with JP. He is afraid he is going to be found out and he asks her to marry him to cover up...
Q: Craig did terrible things to Sarah and to John Paul. And again, we never really got to see his motivations, beyond his being scared and being a control freak.
A: Insecurity, internalized homophobia, an incredible need to be loved (not little to do with his dad leaving his family and his previous girlfriend manipulating him) not only by JP/Sarah but also by his homophobic family. Oh, and being completely terrified of his own feelings. Did you not get to see that? Check youtube!
Q: The moments he enjoyed with John Paul were always private moments. Never once do I remember Craig looking at his family swoon over Sarah
A: When did we see his family swoon over Sarah except the time that she announced the engagement?
Q: and think, "If only they could feel this way about John Paul." Never once did I believe Craig would have been miserable with Sarah if he truly did break it off with John Paul. He seemed perfectly happy to go away with her.
A: Perfectly happy? Ahum, I don't thinks so. He wasn't happy she announced the engagement. AT ALL. Did he not seem miserable? Not even when he was dreaming of waking up in JP’s arms and woke up disappointed it was Sarah? Not even when he dreamt that JP proposed to him? Not even when he asked Sarah could she shut up about Dublin for two seconds? Not even when they got their results and he couldn't celebrate with JP but was grumpy all the time bc it meant they wouldn't see eachother?
Q: I think they sacrificed too much of Craig's feelings for JP in order to prop up Sarah, to make sure Sarah wasn't a complete fool.
A: I think they didn't do that, Craig did that. He WANTED to be straight. Sometimes he WISHED he never met JP. Oh and btw, I think Sarah WAS a complete fool – how many times did they break up? How many times did he treat her bad? Sarah was, most of all, very needy, because of what Rhys had done to her, and because of what was happening to her family. She needed to get away and Craig was the ideal way to do it.
A: We never got to see the moment where Craig himself chose to end the lies.
Q: No we didn’t because he didn’t choose to end the lies. But we did see the moment where he says he "the least I owe you is that I tell you to your face [that I love John Paul more than I love you]", and we see the moment where he says "i don't want to waste any more of my life pretending" and where he says "we're just trying to be honest". Once the truth is out he doesn't want to go back to lying and pretending. The moment of change, btw, is during the aftermath where JP confronts him with the fact that the mess they are in is Craig's responsibility. "You did this"
Q: He did turn Sarah down and go against his family's wishes, but the actual moment of coming out was forced. He was still so reluctant with John Paul after the coming out that it still seemed like he was forced to go through a relationship with John Paul, almost like he'd lost everything else, he didn't want to lose the scraps he had left.
A: I think you have it wrong. The relationship "coming out" was forced, but he kept resisting coming out as gay. And despite not wanting to be gay, he was not reluctant to be with JP. He went to see him and broke down completely when JP didn't want to talk to him. We was in no way forced to go through a relationship with JP. If he would have been equally happy to go away with Sarah as you suggestedabove, why wouldn’t he have taken her back? His family would still have been there for him, Sarah still wanted to be there for him. He hadn’t lost everything, he could have had Sarah back. Did you not see the episode where his family is pressuring him to get back with Sarah and he shouts out “you don’t get it, I should have never asked her to marry me, I was too much of a coward to admit it, I love John Paul” He wasn’t forced to be with JP at all. And even if he didn’t want to get back with Sarah, he could have left things as they were and go to Dublin on his own. He asked JP to come. He didn’t have to do that. He could have chosen to start over with a clean slate in Dublin but he wanted to take JP with him.
Q: So that was always what was missing for me in McDean:
Why did Craig love John Paul?
A: see above. And just because. Because he is JP. That is reason enough. Sometimes you just can't explain. That doesn't mean it's an obsession.
Q: Was this any kind of romantic love, or was this simply obsession, an obsession that caused him to do cruel, horrible things to both John Paul and Sarah?
Neither. It is not the great romance that you apparently expect from “true love”. True love doesn’t always come with a big bang or with moonlight, rose petals and the likes. Sometimes it creeps up on you and you only realize it’s there when you’re drunk, and a little more when they tell you they love you, and a little more when you’re drunk again and you see him struggling to pretend he is straight and you want to tell him you love him even though he’s gay, and then a lot more when a gay dj snogs him in front of you, and even more when you see his family swoon over his boyfriend and you wish they were swooning over you, you wish you were free enough to be with him like that, you wish you didn't feel that would be "wrong" … need I go on?
Q: Did he ever really want a happy ending with John Paul, or did he really just see John Paul as his secret life, a way to feel even more loved and needed?
A: He did. Hence asking him to come to Dublin. Cf also the episode where he dreams of JP proposing to him. Cf also the episode where they are talking about their future on the bridge, where he tells JP he’ll get a good job and they’ll get their own place with … (I don’t remember what exactly)… the works….We’ll be OK you know”
Q: This question mark is compounded for me by the reaction post-McDean, which has often been that poor Craig was abandoned by John Paul, nothing John Paul faces can compare to the love he had with Craig.
A: He was abandoned by JP, at the very last minute. And perhaps JP was right to do it. He did deserve more than Craig could give at that moment. But it wasn’t because Craig didn’t want to give him more. And it doesn’t change the fact that JP has not loved anyone as much as he loved Craig (he literally said that to Hannah and hasn’t contradicted this since, hasn't told Kieron he loved him to his face (only "I think I love him" and "I told Steph I loved you" and " I am crazy about you" - but not "I love you" plain and simple, not "I am in love with you"). And Craig loved JP more (or at least in a different way, which meant more to him) than he loved Sarah or anyone before that.
Q: There's this entire fantasy out there about McDean that never matches up to the scenes I saw.
A: Well, then you need to see them all.
Q: I never really did feel that "moment", the moment where Craig and John Paul would ever truly have a chance as anything other than an affair which left both young men seriously scarred and frightened of what life and love can be. I ended up seeing the relationship as something to get past, not something to ever want to resume.
A few lines for you: - "you don't need me to kiss it better?" - "what am I, your auntie?" - “check your back pocket” - “well, he’s certainly got the legs for Juliet” - “bowl the bunny, yeah” - "you are in my house mister and you are under my orders!" Not BIG moments of realization and of pompous declarations, just a lot of small ones - but that is, in my opinion, what lasting love is all about. If you don’t know which episodes am talking about, see my previous advice: you urgently need to see them all!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2008 21:23:10 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the welcomes! I don’t think there’s any big mystery as to why Craig loved JP. Aside from the fact that JP is a good guy, they started as friends, even best friends. I think in order to truly get these two, one needs indeed to watch all their clips. It seems like Craig was longing for someone like JP to come along. He really cared for him as a friend. In addition, it’s not really surprising that Craig actively pursued JP after JP was moving on with Spike. It’s plain and simple to me: it’s life and human emotions. Sometimes it takes stuff like that to awaken to a lot of things, including intentionally buried feelings. But you also have to remember that while Spike was the catalyst to Craig’s exploding feelings and jealousy, it was only just that: a catalyst. I think it was already hinted that Craig was already having confusing and more than friendly feelings for JP. Remember that their first kiss happened long before Spike ever came into the picture, and it was initiated by Craig. I don’t care if he was drunk, it’s not exactly common occurrence for a straight guy to hit on their best friend, even when they’re drunk. And Craig looked less drunk than tipsy to me. He also said to JP that he loved him before kissing him. After that, Craig fought harder (and more violently) against anything he might have felt for his friend. I’m also thinking that that kiss stayed with Craig. When he comes to JP after leaving his exam room, Craig says a lot of things and has a lot of reactions that kind of hint that he already had thoughts or feelings about JP that Spike’s arrival just brought to the forefront. Right before kissing JP again, I think he even said he thought about it all the time. I definitely agree that Craig is possessive, but that character trait doesn’t take away from the fact that I believe that he had true, genuine feelings for JP. There are just people like that. I also think that his possessiveness toward Sarah was coming from a different place than his possessiveness toward JP. Even before all of that, after JP told Craig that he was in love with him, Craig was weirded out indeed, but somehow, he’s the one who asked JP to stay his friend, the best mate he’d ever had. And they had known each other for what, a few months? I just think their attraction to each other was instant. Had JP not been gay, I’m thinking no romance would have happened, but the love would definitely be there, even though we were dealing with two very different people. Sometimes, love like that has no particular reason to be, it just is. There are people in my life I’m absolutely crazy about, and yet I could give you pages and pages of their shortcomings in my eyes. I could tell you one great thing about them, and immediately give you a long list of annoying things about them. Yet I don’t feel anything but utter love for them. On the other hand, there are others who I barely see a fault in, and yet I might like them just fine or do without them. It’s just the way it is. I also don’t think that Craig was with JP just for the sake of having a dirty little secret on the side. The boy just didn’t want to be gay or have non-straight feelings for JP. Had JP been a girl, Sarah would have been long gone IMO, even though I also think Craig cared for her. Craig pretty much spelled it out during his convo with JP after they told their respective families about their love for each other. That’s another scene where you kind of get that Craig’s feelings for JP were his feelings for him, outside of Spike, Sarah and anyone else. Yet another scene was when he was with Sarah in the next episode(s) I believe, and he honestly said that he kind of wished that he had never met JP. That is pretty telling of the fact that all his fighting, lying and cheating were not just for the sake of lying and cheating, but because he didn’t want to feel the way he did. All the stigmas – internal and external – associated with being gay are what Craig was too scared to face. He was hiding behind everything he could find – most of all Sarah, as long as everyone, including JP, was letting him get away with it. So, it wasn’t at all surprising to me that once everything was out in the open, he chose JP. That one definitely made sense to me. There was no more hiding to be done at that point. Unfortunately, it didn’t wipe away Craig’s personal issues of coming to terms with the fact that he loved a man. I don’t think it could so fast. Being scared IMO, especially in circumstances implying you losing your family and everything you were brought up to believe in, is motivation enough for some people to do awful things, and it was the case here. I do agree that the show didn’t show much of Craig’s turmoil in relation to himself though, which is one reason why I really appreciate GB’s work on this. He was made to communicate the character’s feelings through reaction and contact with the other characters, especially JP and Sarah. Most of the time, such reaction involved violence. It was not easy. The show focused more on JP as far as internal heartache goes. But Craig’s was still visible; it was just dealt with differently IMO. Another random scene: I think it was after Craig told JP that he truly loved him. Craig went upstairs to do his homework after announcing it to everyone, lol. (Sometimes those boys were so not smooth. ) The first person who comes in is Sarah, and you can clearly see Craig’s smile fade away when he realizes that it’s her instead of JP. Same thing happened again in another scene when he was in bed, he kind of turned around, looking all happy as if coming out of a beautiful dream, but when he sees that it’s Sarah sleeping next to him, he looks really disappointed. So, I do think the show still showed us that there were feelings on both parts on quite a few occasions. I don’t think he was. Craig still had a choice not to carry on with JP, and the reason is simple: Sarah and his family still wanted and waited for him to go back to Sarah. Sarah still left the door perfectly open for him to get her back anytime he wanted. Had JP just been scraps to lose, he would have lost them right there and then (and even after). To me, his inability not to fully come out had little to do with his love for JP and more to do with his own acceptance of himself and of his feelings. There’s that scene after coming back from JP’s where he tearfully said to his mother that it’s over, thinking that JP doesn’t want him anymore. His mother thought that he was talking about Sarah, and it made Craig cry some more as he made a gesture implying that she got it wrong. I think Craig was always given – for what reason, I don’t know – “carte blanche” by everyone to return to Sarah as if JP didn’t happen. It was his choice not to do it. But like I said, that didn’t and couldn’t resolve everything. Whether or not I think they should end up together doesn’t take away from the fact that I believe that there was genuine love there Wow, I can’t believe that I’m getting all this from memory. The last time I watched their scenes was so long ago. Yeesh. I really liked this story. However, I still don’t want to see Craig back for the sake of having him back. No need for McDean 2.0 or for some other unrealistic denouement. Oh, I know!
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Post by jaymac74 on May 22, 2008 5:28:17 GMT -5
You know, for this reason I kinda of hope that Thore (Christian from VL) never EVER gives an interview. I mean, I have no idea. Maybe he actually is the coolest guy ever. Maybe he is amazingly eloquent. But I'm way too worried that he might not be and sour my enjoyment of the storyline. It's okay for an actor to not enjoy himself, but then please, just keep your mouth shut. Thore could have no problem with it. I mean, Igor & Matthew Rhys don't seem to have issues playing gay or doing physically intimate scenes with another man from the interviews I've read. There are a few other actors I've come across who play or have played gay roles that have no problem doing intimate scenes with another man. It's all about being secure in yourself IMO & being professional. I have to admit I love McDean but I truly wish I hadn't read and watched some interviews with GB because he was so obvious in his distaste for the intimate McDean scenes, that even though I didn't see it when I watched the JP/C clips, knowing how GB really felt tarnished it some for me. I guess IMO, he didn't have to be totally comfortable kissing another man but he should have been more professional about it as his interviews tended to convey his discomfort/distaste over the intimate scenes in a manner that was not cool though when he talked about the character's feelings or how he saw Craig, he was was really insightful. *shrugs* I,actually, really have a problem with this interpretation of Guy's interviews - James in most of his interviews makes a marked effort to mention his girlfriend but this is rarely commented on! What people fail to remark upon is that Guy is the one who asked his gay friends about their perception of the sexual dynamics between Craig and JP. HE is not homophobic at all and much of his discomfort comes from Craig's apparent volte face in being in love with a man, after 4-5 years of pursuing women. He always said that this change had to make sense and be justified. Guy always kissed James as if he really meant it - as has been mentioned earlier - he was infinitely more convincing than James IMO! To me that is the marker by which his performance should be judged not by a few comments he made expressing his understandable slight unease. Also he did actually extend his contract for several months and said that he would be up for a brief return if warranted so he couldn't have been that disgusted. And why should he keep his mouth shut he's an actor and not a politician?
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Post by jaymac74 on May 22, 2008 5:33:08 GMT -5
Cake fan you have said everything I wanted to say - thank you! Just to add that both boys need to make changes and not just one of them - they both made mistakes and both need to make amends to each other.
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Post by lolaruns on May 22, 2008 5:45:06 GMT -5
And why should he keep his mouth shut he's an actor and not a politician? Not so much about him but about actors in general: I think of actors as trained professionals who are there to sell a product. And that even covers the time they give interviews. If somebody is asked to play a role and then comments on disliking it, it's like Britney Spears being paid mucho bucks to endorse Pepsi and then being caught drinking Cola or commenting how much she dislikes Pepsi. So in general, I don't think that actors should comment negatively on a role that still exists. The fact that many actors still do just that doesn't make it allright. To me it's a question of appearing professional. Nobody forces them to have to "drink the pepsi" or just even like it in their private life, but you shouldn't go shopping around about how much you hate it in an interview you are giving on that subject. (for the record, I think just as negatively of actors who act in soaps yet complain how stupid soaps are; if it pays your bills, shut up in interviews; if you have to whine, do it in private where nobody can hear it)
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on May 22, 2008 7:06:33 GMT -5
Thank you for responding to my post.
I have watched the McDean clips more than once. The idea of McDean has always impressed me, and the actors did a PHENOMENAL job. Guy Burnet had the hardest role and he never got the credit he deserved.
No matter how many times I tell myself that this was a story about love, I just keep going back to the ugliness that the show surrounded the relationship with. Love isn't about rainbows, especially on a soap opera, but there wasn't even much more than a hint of anything beyond pain and hurt for McDean.
Their first kiss caused Craig to beat John Paul up and convince everyone that John Paul had tried to turn him. Their first time in bed together was presented as something which sickened Craig and made him throw a homophobic comment at John Paul and lash out at Sarah. Craig was presented as stringing both John Paul and Sarah along. Their relationship was presented as scarring them both, cutting Craig off from his family, and not being able to survive the light of day.
I wouldn't have wanted Sarah to have been turned into the shrew (although that's what she was turned into after Craig left anyway), but I think in their efforts to make us see that Craig didn't love only JP, they did water down the positives in McDean. The story sometimes took on an undertone of, "Craig is in love with a beautiful model...why isn't she enough for him?" instead of, "Poor Craig, trapped with a woman he doesn't want to be with."
I really would have liked little things. During the time they were falling for each other, I would have liked to have seen Craig being proud of John Paul for something, or admiring him, and then realizing somewhere in his mind, a line had been crossed. I'd liked to have seen Craig being able to listen to John Paul's feelings and concerns, the way he did when Sarah talked to him about her family. We got some of that when Craig comforted John Paul after they found out about Hannah's eating disorder, but the rest of the time, the relationship seemed much more one-sided.
All I ever really wanted was to see and hear why Craig loved John Paul. Not that he had his life planned out and then against his will, he fell for John Paul and his life fell to pieces. I just wanted that line, that scene, that moment where he felt joy and pride and happiness inside him as we saw what drew him to John Paul. Instead, so often, I felt like we were shown Craig had no choice, Craig was resigned to his fate, and the moments of love, of fun, were few and far between.
Anyway, I know that's just my opinion, so I'll stop now.
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Post by cakefan on May 22, 2008 7:48:11 GMT -5
Thank you for responding to my post. I have watched the McDean clips more than once. The idea of McDean has always impressed me, and the actors did a PHENOMENAL job. Guy Burnet had the hardest role and he never got the credit he deserved. No matter how many times I tell myself that this was a story about love, I just keep going back to the ugliness that the show surrounded the relationship with. Love isn't about rainbows, especially on a soap opera, but there wasn't even much more than a hint of anything beyond pain and hurt for McDean. Their first kiss caused Craig to beat John Paul up and convince everyone that John Paul had tried to turn him. Their first time in bed together was presented as something which sickened Craig and made him throw a homophobic comment at John Paul and lash out at Sarah. Craig was presented as stringing both John Paul and Sarah along. Their relationship was presented as scarring them both, cutting Craig off from his family, and not being able to survive the light of day. I wouldn't have wanted Sarah to have been turned into the shrew (although that's what she was turned into after Craig left anyway), but I think in their efforts to make us see that Craig didn't love only JP, they did water down the positives in McDean. The story sometimes took on an undertone of, "Craig is in love with a beautiful model...why isn't she enough for him?" instead of, "Poor Craig, trapped with a woman he doesn't want to be with." I really would have liked little things. During the time they were falling for each other, I would have liked to have seen Craig being proud of John Paul for something, or admiring him, and then realizing somewhere in his mind, a line had been crossed. I'd liked to have seen Craig being able to listen to John Paul's feelings and concerns, the way he did when Sarah talked to him about her family. We got some of that when Craig comforted John Paul after they found out about Hannah's eating disorder, but the rest of the time, the relationship seemed much more one-sided. All I ever really wanted was to see and hear why Craig loved John Paul. Not that he had his life planned out and then against his will, he fell for John Paul and his life fell to pieces. I just wanted that line, that scene, that moment where he felt joy and pride and happiness inside him as we saw what drew him to John Paul. Instead, so often, I felt like we were shown Craig had no choice, Craig was resigned to his fate, and the moments of love, of fun, were few and far between. Anyway, I know that's just my opinion, so I'll stop now. Thanks for your response carld2, I think I understand your point better now. I am sorry that I got a little carried away yesterday, it's just that this story is so dear to me... Perhaps you are right although Craig IS shown as being proud of JP (of JP as well as Nancy when they did well in their exams - he is more interested in JP's results than Sarah's and very proud of JP's results) - and after JP defends him against Sonny and Justin, he calls him "my hero" several times. He admires JP's dj-ing skills, and this can be seen in several episodes ("will your kids be demons on the decks like their dad?" - and the ones with the DJ'ing in the Loft and where he convinces JP to compete in the dj-competition in the Dog). Also, he is very supportive when Jacqui has had her miscarriage ("give us a kiss to make it better") and he is really nice to Alek, JP's brother in law, when he bumps into him (thinking Alek was the father of the baby and causing Tony to reveal that, in fact, he is the father). There's also the moment where he lashes out agains the models who say JP is goodlooking but too short to model, where Craig says "bit fascist are we?" But all in all you are right. We never get to see a moment where he grows a few inches because JP is someone to be proud of and he is with him. I think that is not because Craig doesn't think JP is someone to be proud of. He does think that. But he is not proud to be with him because deep down he still believes it is wrong. He DID fall for JP against his will. And the moments of fun are far between because he isn't happy. When it all comes out, he is still wishing JP were a girl, because then it wouldn't be so difficult. He hasn't yet realized that what he should be wishing for is that other people wouldn't make such a big deal out of JP being a guy. He himself is still finding that a big deal when he leaves for Dublin. That is why it had to end. And that is probably what the storyline will build on if (when? dare I hope?) they bring the character of Craig back to Hollyoaks. Has being away from his family made it possible for him to accept that being gay/bi is OK? And has he met someone else or does he still love JP and does he want to make right what he did wrong last time? And if so, will it work this time? If they do bring Guy Burnet back (and I really hope they do, I would love to see him on my screen again - he really didn't get enough credit for his work, nor did James IMHO - stupid Dancing-on-Ice-fame of Chris Fountain) I hope they give him a storyline that is a bit meatier than a cheesy sunset ending. But BK wouldn't be BK if he didn't... Oh well - on another note, and for another thread I suppose - I like that the JP/Kieron stuff is getting a little complicated, and interesting... With much parallels to JP/C I must say: secrecy, control, bringing out the worst in both characters, and with much angst - I loved Mercedes in the last episode!!!
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Post by Bonobochick on May 22, 2008 8:02:48 GMT -5
Thore could have no problem with it. I mean, Igor & Matthew Rhys don't seem to have issues playing gay or doing physically intimate scenes with another man from the interviews I've read. There are a few other actors I've come across who play or have played gay roles that have no problem doing intimate scenes with another man. It's all about being secure in yourself IMO & being professional. I have to admit I love McDean but I truly wish I hadn't read and watched some interviews with GB because he was so obvious in his distaste for the intimate McDean scenes, that even though I didn't see it when I watched the JP/C clips, knowing how GB really felt tarnished it some for me. I guess IMO, he didn't have to be totally comfortable kissing another man but he should have been more professional about it as his interviews tended to convey his discomfort/distaste over the intimate scenes in a manner that was not cool though when he talked about the character's feelings or how he saw Craig, he was was really insightful. *shrugs* I,actually, really have a problem with this interpretation of Guy's interviews - James in most of his interviews makes a marked effort to mention his girlfriend but this is rarely commented on! What people fail to remark upon is that Guy is the one who asked his gay friends about their perception of the sexual dynamics between Craig and JP. HE is not homophobic at all and much of his discomfort comes from Craig's apparent volte face in being in love with a man, after 4-5 years of pursuing women. He always said that this change had to make sense and be justified. Guy always kissed James as if he really meant it - as has been mentioned earlier - he was infinitely more convincing than James IMO! To me that is the marker by which his performance should be judged not by a few comments he made expressing his understandable slight unease. Also he did actually extend his contract for several months and said that he would be up for a brief return if warranted so he couldn't have been that disgusted. And why should he keep his mouth shut he's an actor and not a politician? I don't think anyone here called Guy homophobic, so that is a card that doesn't need to be played. I don't fault either actor in the McDean storyline for their performances because they both did a great job. Had I not heard and read interviews with either of them, I wouldn't have caught on to the issues both had though they handled it in different ways. Lola already said pretty much what I think on being a professional about the job. As for James mentioning his girlfriend a lot, I noticed he kept doing that. He's not without his issues either but his more subtle method of screaming "I'm not gay, I just play it on TV" by mentioning his girlfriend consistently during McDean didn't bother me like some distaste I felt emulating from Guy's comments. I notice that Jake H does the girlfriend mention a lot too in interviews, and James doesn't nearly as much as he used to. That said, I noticed when watching that Guy was the better - if only cause it's early for me and I can't think of another word right now to describe what I am trying to say - more natural seeming kisser when they did have intimate scenes. It's how I first noticed James and his closed mouth thing in kiss scenes. Just because I have problems with a few of things the actors did doesn't mean I didn't like the McDean storyline. I am not going to make excuses or flat out ignore things I saw/heard from the actors that troubled me. Nothing is perfect - including McDean or the actors in the storyline - but that doesn't mean I didn't still love the storyline.
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Post by cakefan on May 22, 2008 8:13:13 GMT -5
I,actually, really have a problem with this interpretation of Guy's interviews - James in most of his interviews makes a marked effort to mention his girlfriend but this is rarely commented on! What people fail to remark upon is that Guy is the one who asked his gay friends about their perception of the sexual dynamics between Craig and JP. HE is not homophobic at all and much of his discomfort comes from Craig's apparent volte face in being in love with a man, after 4-5 years of pursuing women. He always said that this change had to make sense and be justified. Guy always kissed James as if he really meant it - as has been mentioned earlier - he was infinitely more convincing than James IMO! To me that is the marker by which his performance should be judged not by a few comments he made expressing his understandable slight unease. Also he did actually extend his contract for several months and said that he would be up for a brief return if warranted so he couldn't have been that disgusted. Thanks for pointing this out! It always bothers me too. He was just being honest about being uneasy. And he kissed better than James for sure!
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Post by Difficult Diva on May 22, 2008 9:02:17 GMT -5
Cakefan - I'm sorry that you couldn't end up with your own version of a Sunset Ending, but let's just say that if the show was able to get Guy to come back for more than a one-off and/or one-week return to the show (because, it's definitely going to take more time for the JP and Craig's issues to be focused on) and the writers still have JP choosing Kieron OR he ends up not being with anyone, would that be okay? I'm just thinking of OTHER options, besides having John-Paul ending up with Craig as the "only way he can leave Hollyoaks" for most viewers to see him having a "happy ending". VERY insightful post Macari. Especially the bit about the soulmates. I had one just like that when I was 19 - the JP/Craig storyline really hit a nerve with me for that reason and it really pisses me off when people (often gay) say the storyline wasn't realistic, that people don't turn gay like that and if they do they should admit to being gay already, not jp-sexual... To me - then a "confused" teenager - now somewhat more comfortable with the labelling and calling myself bi - that is always so hurtful. It is not a question of black or white. There are many shades of g(r)ay. The JP/C storyline showed this beautifully. And you, Macari, got to the bottom of it with the soulmate-remark. Sometimes it is better to let the soulmate go. I did. Attended her wedding years later. I skipped the ceremony, couldn't bear it. Looking at her dancing with her husband ripped my heart out. I wanted to be the one dancing with her, I wanted to be the one to ride away in the carriage with her. But I also knew that we'd 've made each other deeply unhappy. Some relationships are just too much. (teardrop falls down on the keyboard, sniff). I had always hoped for a SE for JP/C but I think your post might just make it possible for me to accept it if they don't.
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Post by Difficult Diva on May 22, 2008 9:21:23 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the welcomes! You're welcome, Macari. I think that the possessiveness came from a place inside of Craig, in which he felt like he couldn't get anyone really special to truly love him. All of his past relationships, ended in disaster. When his last girlfriend (before Sarah), Darlene screwed him over by using him and his love to get free room and board with his family (after being thrown out of her own home), her sleeping with Darren, making sexual harrassment accusations towards Jack (when he threatened to throw her out of their place, because of her sleeping with Darren) and then her attempts to get Craig to run off with her after everything came out about all her schemes, he truly thought that he could never find someone that would care about him. He then meets John-Paul, who stands up for him, against bullying from Sonny Valentine and Justin, over his older brother, Jake's past actions. He gets encouragement from John-Paul, in his pursuit of a relationship with Sarah Barnes, the "perfect girl", who also seems interested in him, because he's a nice guy and not a user, like her last boyfriend, Rhys. I think that John-Paul and Sarah, made Craig feel like he was worthy and that's something that MOST people definitely want in their life. He just couldn't make the choice, until EVERYTHING blew up in such a horrible way.
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Post by Bonobochick on May 22, 2008 10:50:13 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the welcomes! You're welcome, Macari. I think that the possessiveness came from a place inside of Craig, in which he felt like he couldn't get anyone really special to truly love him. All of his past relationships, ended in disaster. When his last girlfriend (before Sarah), Darlene screwed him over by using him and his love to get free room and board with his family (after being thrown out of her own home), her sleeping with Darren, making sexual harrassment accusations towards Jack (when he threatened to throw her out of their place, because of her sleeping with Darren) and then her attempts to get Craig to run off with her after everything came out about all her schemes, he truly thought that he could never find someone that would care about him. He then meets John-Paul, who stands up for him, against bullying from Sonny Valentine and Justin, over his older brother, Jake's past actions. He gets encouragement from John-Paul, in his pursuit of a relationship with Sarah Barnes, the "perfect girl", who also seems interested in him, because he's a nice guy and not a user, like her last boyfriend, Rhys. I think that John-Paul and Sarah, made Craig feel like he was worthy and that's something that MOST people definitely want in their life. He just couldn't make the choice, until EVERYTHING blew up in such a horrible way. Yes. Craig lacked someone who wanted him for himself for a long time. Then he met Sarah, then John Paul, two people who loved him and seemed to want him and I totally understood why he was possessive and manipulative about everything that happened. Totally understandable, even if it wasn't fun to watch at times. Darlene was a mess and a complete bitch to Craig, though I still stand by Craig having more sexual chemistry with her than he did with Sarah.
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Post by jaymac74 on May 23, 2008 3:47:29 GMT -5
Sorry didn't mean to imply that anybody said that Guy was homophobic.
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on May 30, 2008 6:32:53 GMT -5
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Post by Difficult Diva on May 30, 2008 10:45:52 GMT -5
Wasn't his appearance on BNTM already on YouTube?
I swear that I saw it sometime late last year.
I think I saw a clip of it on another forum today. If I find it again, I'll post it.
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Post by unacidict on May 30, 2008 13:14:12 GMT -5
It was I cant find it...
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