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Post by tihkon2 on Jul 30, 2008 14:47:47 GMT -5
Nor do I restenergy. The general consensus on youtube seems to be split between :
"I still like Olivia and I hope Olli forgives her!" and "I hate that &$@#* Olivia and am so happy Olli kicked her ass to the curb!" But almost no one at all is expressing any dissatisfaction with the actual scene itself.
This is just my own personal opinion, and I don't speak for anyone else, but I think there's a tendency on any message board, not just this one, to over analyze these shows and look at things in a much more intellectual way than they are probably intended to be looked at.
As I said, that's my opinion , and what I believe, and I do not say I am correct or right.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jul 30, 2008 15:04:42 GMT -5
It's perfectly ok if not everyone drew the same conclusion to the clip. One interpretation is not wrong or right, it's just how it came across to each person. Some found satisfaction and some didn't but either side trying to make the other feel like they're somehow in error or missing something for their interpretation is when it starts to tread a thin line. Not everyone is going to agree on the clips, especially with the number of people on the board, but questioning what's on the show versus questioning other people's interpretations are two different things. Let's stick to the former please.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 30, 2008 15:08:39 GMT -5
Nobody is seriously suggesting that Olivia wasn't to blame. But even good people can be made to look bad with poor framing and vice versa. And the framing of Olli in this episode was poor. Which is made even more annoying because we know he was in the right. But regardless of what the fact were, the scene sold him short.
Maybe it falls along male/female fault lines. With the men thinking that there was no problem and the women feeling it was done poorly.
To me build up and justification is more than just the facts. Again, give me a short hug between Christian and Olli where Olli bursts out how relieved he is that it is all over. Have Olli play up the fear and the panic during the argument. Give him arguments that one can truly get behind, namely that Olivia is still lying or that she dragged Olli into all this by using his wallet to wash her money.
Being upset over Sophie might be a good argument in theory, but I don't buy it in this context because we haven't seen Olli care about Sophia. We haven't seen him worried about Sophia when she was abducted. We haven't even had him drop a line about how shocked and worried her was. And quite frankly with zero build up him using this as an explanation looks somewhat inappropriate when the actual parents don't care nearly as much. Show us. Tell us why this is so much bigger a betrayal.
The fact that Olivia is a bitch and did many things doesn't mean squat in an argument if Olli never actually brings it up, implying that that isn't what actually bothers him. And if his real motivation is really just him being huffy about Christian that makes him seem petty if staked against all the other actual crimes Olivia has committed unless he makes it about betrayal (a la "I support you and you attack the one thing you know means the most in the world to me").
Still, regardless of how we might have wished Olli would have argued, what remains is still a flat scene. It didn't contain any interesting emotions. It didn't contain any zingers. It's not a scene where anybody would look back on this week or even just this episode and go "Oh, great scene".
Soaps = emotion to me. I want characters I can empathize with. Characters I can feel. The facts have little to do with it. A good soap/movie/show can make you empathize with a murder or a thief or a babykiller. It's just a question of good dialog, good acting and the right framing. If I can't empathize on an emotional level (as opposed to a fact level) with somebody who is one of my faves in a situation which is fundamentally relatable that just bugs. (don't empathize in this case doesn't mean dislike; it's more like watching a void)
We all talked about how flat the beard story was and I offered the suggestion that it might be because maybe the beard story was more about Fabian and Judith than it was about Olli and Christian and that Olli and Christian were just mere tools to show us something about Fabian and Judith. This scene (as well as a bunch of others in this story) made me wonder if Olli hadn't been cast as the unresponsive antagonist in the Perils of Oliva story.
How many of them watch the entire show? How many were just happy to have a new Ollian clip? How many actually care about the details of whether an Olli or Olivia scene is well done as opposed to whether or not Christian kisses Olli goodbye when he leaves?
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Post by tihkon2 on Jul 30, 2008 15:10:59 GMT -5
This is the problem I have with what's being said. This is your opinion Lola. It is not a fact that it was poorly framed. It is your opinion that it was poorly framed.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 30, 2008 15:13:31 GMT -5
The argument voiced by Olli was not very believable (we haven't seen him him care about Sophia for about 6 months, he wasn't involved in the kidnapping storylines, his reaction was completely disproportionate compared to how the parents reacted). The emotional follow up was non-existant. That is poor framing.
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Post by tihkon2 on Jul 30, 2008 15:18:41 GMT -5
I don't agree.
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Post by synapticmisfire on Jul 30, 2008 15:46:18 GMT -5
I fall somewhere in the middle. I don't think it was the knock-down drag-out fight it could have been, but then, I think there's time for that later. Or at least, when they do eventually reconcicle (as I'm relatively sure they will - Olli needs a non-Christian contact point and Olivia needs a moral centre to avoid becoming a cheap Tanya knock-off), he can hit her then with a massive list of stuff she's done. I actually liked some of the subtler points of this scene - the coke-drinking that LolaRuns mentioned upthread actually really worked for me, which it mightn't have done if they'd instantly called loads of attention to it by having him yell about that. It was just another little expression of the fact that she's completely self-centred and willing to take from him even when 'apologising'; I think even if you were only watching that scene you'd see that it wasn't just the Sophia thing that had made Olli angry. Hell, he mentions outing Christian in the next breath, and is ready to go on before she cuts him off (assuming "At Charlie's" was going to lead to "...you threatened to out us both!" or equivalent), at which point he just kinda gives up and stalks off.
And I can see why the Sophia thing would mean a lot to him - he's always been the one who defended her, said that she wasn't that bad, that she was just misunderstood, and beyond the betrayal of her attempted blackmail is the betrayal of her doing something really appalling in front of him for the first time since the pregnancy thing, which was even then slightly more understandable ("I did it for love" is easier to forgive than "I did it for money"). It's the "I'm mad because I'm disappointed in you" thing parents always pull, and it explains why he seems almost more worked up than Lars - Lars expected nothing from Olivia. Olli hoped for better, but in the space of the last few episodes she's shown that even her family aren't off-limits when she's trying to get ahead, and that's really got to hurt.
So no, not an amazing scene. It won't make my top 10 Olli moments, and it probably could have been more satisfying. But I can buy the emotions behind it, and I wouldn't agree that it doesn't express clearly to viewers why Olli's extra pissed-off this time.
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Post by psionycx on Jul 30, 2008 19:36:37 GMT -5
I think I've made my opinion clear. To me this was all reasonably plausible. Although I believe that it probably could have used more screen time and development.
I'm all in favor of more screen time for Christian and Olli and I would have loved to see a discussion between them about Olivia backing down from her threat. It would have also been nice to see Olli give Olivia a more thorough dressing down than he did.
But this is always the case that we want to see more of our favorite characters and we want them to do more interesting "stuff". Certainly I would have been very happy if they'd had a scene here where Olli tried to explain to Olivia just how important Christian is to him and why he doesn't think her threats are at all tolerable. Given my feelings about Olivia as a character I would have also liked to have seen him give her a stern lecture about her behavior.
Unfortunately the writers didn't opt to spend that much time on this one story thread. Disappointing but obviously the show doesn't revolve around these characters. They're just a part of the overall storyline. So we get what they choose to give.
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j9l45
Junior Member
Posts: 622
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Post by j9l45 on Jul 30, 2008 19:47:25 GMT -5
To me, I think one of the reasons it seems such a small scene is that it isn't really the focus of the story. If they had made the fight between Olli and Olivia truly representative of all the underlying dynamics of their relationship and all the possible grudges Olli has and all the bad things that Olivia does it would have been too big. It would have caused a major rift in their relationship. And while that is a very soapy storyline and indeed may be one in the future (I don't know, I don't read the spoilers) I don't think it is the story they want to tell right now. It seems like the current focus for Olli is more about the upcoming fight Christian has. I think they included this scene because, well, they had to. They needed a way for Olivia to get "caught" and the ransom money to get dealt with without it Adrian being able to get his hands on it. And they needed a way for Olivia to get caught without going to jail, returning the ransom money, etc, etc. Olli is pretty much the only person who wouldn't turn Olivia in so it had to be him that discovered her, but since even he wouldn't let that slide they had to have a little tiff, but not so much as to derail other storylines and create a permanent distance between the two. And yes I use the word tiff intentionally because in the grand scheme of soapworld that hardly seemed like a major falling out, the kind that lasts for years and that characters have a hard time overcoming. So overall, I think the scene was more of a convenience. Of getting done what has to happen so the story can move on.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Jul 30, 2008 20:02:02 GMT -5
With Lola fleshing out the point about how there hasn't been demonstrated on the show that Olli has any stronger bond or history of caring for Sophia, I came to understand at least part of how we were seeing the scene differently. If the items that Olli lists are seen as the primary and direct reasons for not wanting to have anything to do with Olivia any more, then I can certainly see how the scene would fall flat. It would be difficult to swallow that Olli is now suddenly burning with righteous indignation on Sophia's behalf. It would seem strange that it would come up now. I can see that there would be no build up to this point and that it would ring hollow and be unconvincing.
Olli's bringing up the blackmail could also seem odd from this perspective. Sure, Olli might be still upset with Olivia over it. He might not be ready to forgive him. But, since it has come and passed without incident, that Olivia didn't follow through on the threat, it would be strange to escalate it now to being a reason to have nothing to do with Olivia in the future. The time for Olli to use this as a solid reason to cut Olivia off has passed. It could have made sense she first spoke of it and when Olli rejected it. He could have then said he wanted nothing to do with her. But he didn't. So it seems odd and hollow to use it now, after the press conference.
I think I now have a better understanding of what Lola is saying now.
Yet, I don't see the conversation this way. For me, at least, Olli's comment "You don't get it, do you?" is his thesis and the items he lists are not the reasons for cutting Olivia off, but supporting evidence for his reason. She doesn't get it. She doesn't understand the situation she is in. She doesn't understand what her actions are doing to other people. She doesn't really accept any personal responsibility for her actions. She doesn't get that she isn't acting in a descent, appropriate, ethical fashion. Why it is now that Olli gets not just upset, but downright angry with her? I don't see it as a sudden flash of anger on behalf of himself, Christian, or Sophia and her parents. What I see is that Olivia has used up the benefit of doubt and family connection that Olli has been giving her. Olivia's attitude and assumptions about Olli backing her financially is a final straw. It's a scales-falling-from-the-eyes kind of moment, perhaps. The reason that Olli doesn't want anything to do with Olivia any longer is because of her attitude and her lack of personal responsibility, as illustrated by what she has done, not because of what she as done itself. At least that's how I see the scene.
I think that there is one additional aspect to Olli's reaction to Olivia that would bear on Olli's decision to essentially disown Olivia. Certainly the surface activity of using the ransom money for her own cousin, and all that has gone on around it, is bad enough. He'd have had plenty of opportunity before to get this angry with Olivia before if this was the real sticking point. Instead, it seems to me, at least, that what Olli realizes is how Olivia has been abusing her family members. The issue is that Olivia would do this to her family. It's less particulars or how much one cares for another, as it is the principle that one doesn't treat family this way. I think these family ties are important for Olli, despite and perhaps particular because of the broken relations that do exist in the family. It is this sort of transgression, more than anything else, that really drives not wanting to have anything to do with Olivia any longer.
At least that's what I'm seeing here. Everyone's millage may very, even considerably.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Jul 30, 2008 20:10:05 GMT -5
I would suspect that had Olivia never threatened the love of Olli's life, he would have been more heart and less heat. When he was pushing Olivia before that, it was mostly to help her from getting into too much trouble. It was some "tough love." When she threatened the blackmail, however, she touched something else that was actually deeply threatening to Olli. It can bring out a different reaction. Even the sweetest most caring person has his or her limits. I think Olivia pushed and prodded until Olli found his limit.
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Post by psionycx on Jul 30, 2008 22:40:37 GMT -5
She can mess with Olli, but she had best not threaten Christian. Olli's threshold is a lot lower when it comes to looking out for his boyfriend.
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