j9l45
Junior Member
Posts: 622
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Post by j9l45 on Jul 29, 2008 4:17:50 GMT -5
aww. I just knew Olivia couldn't do it (this time at least.) I'm glad he stood up to her, but I do think she loves him. I also think that one of the reasons she expects him to put up with her (besides having done it in the past) is because she thinks he is the one person who understands her.
And I liked how Olli's and Olivia's outfits looked sorta co-ordinated. Made them look even more similar.
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eldanesh
Junior Member
insane in the membrane.
Posts: 251
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Post by eldanesh on Jul 29, 2008 4:20:14 GMT -5
And I liked how Olli's and Olivia's outfits looked sorta co-ordinated. Made them look even more similar. haha i never noticed that...
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Post by ivaniv on Jul 29, 2008 5:45:50 GMT -5
I don't think it's about understanding. She expects him to take everything she throws at him. She knows he loves her and she abuses that. I don't think she wanted to out Christian, she thought Olli would do what she wanted from him (it always worked) without thinking much about what the blackmail would do to Olli. No wonder she acted so casual later, for her it was something she always does, so no special reason for Olli to get his knickers in a twist now, he, for a change, just won this round.
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Post by scifimlb on Jul 29, 2008 11:34:40 GMT -5
this isnt the first time olivia tried to blackmail oliver and christian....she did it before when she first found out about christian....she threatened to tell wolle then if they didnt do some photo shoot at the boxing ring..... i too believe she never would go through with it....she just thought or hoped olli would back down....and i think olli and christian knew she wouldn't go through with it....even though they were ready if she did...... but i understand olli just had it with her....at least for now...i feel he will forgive her eventually but the blackmail thing was not just going after him (olli)...but after the person he loves (christian) and not only would it have hurt olli because it would hurt christians boxing career but also because olli would also feel responsible because olivia is his family. and olli just couldn't bear the thought of being responsible for hurting christian.
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Post by synapticmisfire on Jul 29, 2008 16:04:22 GMT -5
Did anyone else think Olivia's tears during the Carla/Lars/Olivia scene seemed completely faked? And the actress is normally pretty good, so I'm assuming it was an in-character thing - Olivia trying crocodile tears to get herself out of the mess she'd gotten herself into. But €500 a month is a decent chunk of money (maybe not to Carla, but as a struggling student I try to think about giving up that much money each month and die a little inside), so I'm assuming we can count on even more wacky Olivia subplots in the future as she struggles to get enough money together. (though if they're not subtitled I certainly don't mind - you guys do this off your own bat and it's really nice of you, so it's entirely your call as to how much you're capable of doing without burning out/going crazy)
And yay for Olli finally standing up properly to Olivia! She really did seem to think that "Oopsie, sorry I threatened to ruin your life, and Christian's too - just kidding!" would do the trick. I hope she makes him forgive her eventually, but I hope she earns it at the same time.
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Post by psionycx on Jul 29, 2008 18:56:00 GMT -5
I don't think it's about understanding. She expects him to take everything she throws at him. She knows he loves her and she abuses that. I don't think she wanted to out Christian, she thought Olli would do what she wanted from him (it always worked) without thinking much about what the blackmail would do to Olli. No wonder she acted so casual later, for her it was something she always does, so no special reason for Olli to get his knickers in a twist now, he, for a change, just won this round. Agreed. Also, we need to keep in mind that at that point it was still unclear what Lars was going to do. Olivia probably didn't want to actually declare war on Olli and Christian because she knows that Olli would be her best advocate if Lars needed to be talked out of a particularly severe punishment. That Olli stood his ground this time was something she wasn't prepared for. What she underestimated was Christian. Olli probably would have yielded to her if he hadn't had that talk with Christian before the confrontation at Schneider's. But just as Christian has been stronger with Olli's support I think that the same is true of Olli now as well. The fact that Christian was subsequently willing to take a stand on principle rather than send Olli to beg Olivia to keep her mouth shut speaks to Olli's subsequent anger with Olivia. That Christian is so noble only makes Olli feel more upset that Olivia would threaten him. Olivia wasn't expecting this, because she's used to being able to get what she wants from Olli, either through playing the sweet sister routine or, failing that, through blackmail. She found Olli's boundaries this time and I think she just didn't want to risk stepping any further over them and possibly pissing him off too badly. Unfortunately for her, she wasn't especially contrite over what she had threatened to do and was more concerned about how she was going to meet Carla's demands. I think that is what really pushed Olli over the edge. Thanks again to our beloved heroes Ivan, Nanna and Tihkon!
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 29, 2008 20:44:43 GMT -5
I agree with the pov's about Olivia not really thinking that Olli wouldn't forgive her, like he's done in the past. I enjoy watching her plots and schemes, because they NEVER work, but I'm glad that Olli said ENOUGH to her. Maybe, this situation will make her realize that the one person who has always loved and supported her, does have a breaking point. She royally fucked up this time.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 30, 2008 1:24:45 GMT -5
IMO, I don't think that the episode was the most friendly to Olli (I have made the point about how some episodes seem to friendly to certain characters or couples before in the AWZ thread). Yes, we know he is right, but if anybody had seen the episode out of context they would have assumed that Olli was acting irrationally since Olivia had just been apologizing and Olli wasn't really allowed to make a concise/passionate explanation of why he is totally justified in cutting her loose. Instead he looked like he was having a freakout on her (and IMO in this context of this particular looked like he was punishing her/being cold unfairly).
Just like/Because the show didn't makes it clear that Olivia wasn't really remorseful/was just playing everybody/wasn't being truthful. (for example, IMO the scene would have gained a lot more power if they had had Olli being allowed to actually accusing her of these things or even throw in "Will you stop drinking my cola!" for good measure) no matter how much we can assume that that is the case.
They also could have made the whole thing more poignant if they had thrown in a short moment where Ollian hug after the press conference and exchange a few words to bring out how scared/worried they were.
No, it's not that these thing/emotions/motivations aren't there, but it's that soaps are never exactly a highpost of subtlety and so scenes like this would have been required to bring out the emotions. Because soaps are never that subtle and DON'T leave it to viewers to work out those things for themselves. Because soaps are all about spelling things out.
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RJ
New Member
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Post by RJ on Jul 30, 2008 1:57:58 GMT -5
IMO, I don't think that the episode was the most friendly to Olli (I have made the point about how some episodes seem to friendly to certain characters or couples before in the AWZ thread). Yes, we know he is right, but if anybody had seen the episode out of context they would have assumed that Olli was acting irrationally since Olivia had just been apologizing and Olli wasn't really allowed to make a concise/passionate explanation of why he is totally justified in cutting her loose. Instead he looked like he was having a freakout on her (and IMO in this context of this particular looked like he was punishing her/being cold unfairly). This is a serial drama. In order to know the context, the viewer is expected to have been watching the storyline all along, not just this one episode. VL is a half hour program, right? If the writers provided exposition for every scenario, just so casual viewers who hadn't bothered to keep up with the storyline would not "get the wrong idea", people would be complaining about the slow pace of the show.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 30, 2008 2:22:16 GMT -5
I really disagree. Soaps constantly have characters summing up storylines, so new viewers do have the chance to quickly brush up on the history or at least gleam the context. Yet this episode didn't make Olivia look all that bad. Instead the people going after her came off as overtly stern and parental rather than like people who had real, emotional reasons to be angry at her.
Carla and Lars for example came off just as stern, almost like they were acting more on principle and what they gave Olivia was barely a slap on the hand.
Soaps have the chance to shift the dialog around to establish who should be sympathized with in a scene, give them powerful arguments even when they are in the wrong for example. Regardless of how much exposition a soap can do or should do, even in a real life context that would have been a good moment to really count down all her misdeeds and throw her personality/attitude in her face or accuse her of still hiding something about the kidnappers.
Instead Olli looks petty because he seems more upset over Olivia using Sophia's abduction (which is the reason he gave) than the parents themselves (Lars and Carla). Where does he come off cutting Olivia out of his life when neither Lars or Carla voiced anything as radical and they are the parents (granted they have a lot less contact with Olivia anyway, but yet they still seemed a lot calmer about it; and they obviously seem to believe Olivia's story about really not knowing anything about the kidnappers)
Again, soaps can use plenty of tools to establish who is the hero and who is the villain in a scene, regardless of the actual context, who gets the good lines, who gets the good arguments, who gets the emotional scenes, who gets the freaky or positive background music, who gets the last line, etc...
This would have been a great moment for Olivia to get her comeupperance or for Olli to finally strike back. Instead the moment wasn't portrayed at all as such. No, I don't think that Olli came off as a villain, but it was closer to him having some ruffled feathers (probably because of his boyfriend and not because he actually cares about Sophia (remember, he hasn't had a scene with her since winter, ages before the kidnapping, he wasn't involved in the kidnapping storyline at all, he never talks about Sophia or inquires about her and the actual parents seem less ruffled) or because Olivia deserves it) and Olivia mostly brushing it off rather than it seeming like she understood why he was acting that way/agreeing that he is justified in being mad at her. Based on this scene I would assume that Olli will be portrayed and him and Olivia just having had a tiff, respectably him being portrayed as keeping a grudge which he will give up eventually. It just didn't feel like a huge, important scene at all, not like it is a big moment for there to finally be rift in an important relationship and for a good reason. To me Olli wasn't really allowed to make a good point regardless of the fact that we know he has a good point based on history. Because none of that was believably brought up.
To me there can be a "winner" and "loser" in any scene or conversation between characters. In fact that's how a lot of shows establish their villainesses. That even if they do evil deeds they get motivations and they get to constantly win the arguments with the good characters (Carly from General Hospital used to be the queen of this) often to the extent of the actually good character being portrayed as hypocrites or as boring. No, I don't think that it was the case in this scene, but Olli certainly wasn't portrayed as the (emotional) winner who the people's hearts jump to in empathy in this scene either.
Soaps are the queens of context and framing. A relatively minor good act can be framed to be the most heroic deed in the universe and a much greater good act as something that has barely any relevance. Just like a minor misdeed can be portrayed as the worst betrayal in the universe while things much more evil can be brushed off. On B&B for example there are people who still see "Brooke dropped the letter where Caroline confessed her love for Ridge behind the bed" as a prove that Brooke is deeply evil ("there was villain music in the background and she had a crazy look in her eyes") despite the fact that it was years ago and both Brooke and her rivals have committed much more worse deeds. Opposite that things like Stephanie trying to kill Brooke or forcing a girl into having an abortion or Amber stealing her cousin's baby and passing it off as her own can be brushed away with "She was desperate" or "She was just defending her family".
And no, I don't think that Olli was portrayed as a villain in this scene, but the show didn't really give him a positive framing either even though it would have made sense in this context. In fact, it seemed to me that the framing was used to take away from the emotionalism of the scene, probably to make Olivia seem less guilty/her bad deeds less wrong because after all they want to keep her around as a fun character.
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Post by tihkon2 on Jul 30, 2008 2:55:28 GMT -5
I think you've basically answered your earlier observation right there Lola. ;D
I think that's exactly why the scene was played that way. They don't want Olivia to be an utterly unredeemable character. She's good comic relief at times and Kristina is great as Olivia.
But I think for every viewer like yourself who saw the scene a certain way, there is a viewer who simply saw it as Olivia getting her comeuppence and are completely content with the way Olli told her off.
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Post by ivaniv on Jul 30, 2008 5:36:08 GMT -5
I actually like it that VL does not reiterate the whole context so that everybody even a casual viewer can understand it correctly. I hate it when soaps always go back to the dawn of time to make sure we have everything. In this case a casual viewer will be misled and if they keep watching they are bound to work it out anyway as this subject will surely be addressed again. And there's a fun in working it out, too. Given the number of plots they have to juggle, they just don't have time for endless exposes. And there is no law against misunderstanding actions of soap characters, anyway VL being unconventional and not as the soap is expected to be is a good thing, too, IMO.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 30, 2008 6:05:06 GMT -5
But really, how many people who aren't Ollian fans and who weren't watching precisely because they wanted Olli to finally part ways with Olivia are going to see it that way? And I think even the people who wanted Lars and Carla to go after Olivia because of Sophia's abduction were likely very disappointed with the scenes.
IMO the scenes were beyond tepid and therefore very unsatisfying. I'm all for Olli telling Olivia off, but not if it is done in such a poor way where it is hard to truly get any zazzzz out of the scene. There just wasn't any emotional resonance, barely any from Olivia and even less from Olli. I think it was extremely disappointing that they didn't get better, more resonating writing (and with more resonating I don't mean both of them crying, it could have been wit, it could have been anger, instead it was just poor and unconvincing). Olli just wasn't given enough scope to voice anything believable (at least Olivia was given enough scope to do her private little "I'm my own heroine and in my world everybody is after poor little me" thing). It felt like a throwaway scene and that sucks because 3 lines of dialog more and it could have been much better.
Olli taking the Sophie thing more personally than Lars and Carla just rings false, particularly since it comes out of nowhere and will likely never be dealth with again. And as a result Olli as a character just rings false in this scene. Again, 3 more lines. Have Olli saying that the reason he is upset is because she drew him into it when she changed the money in his waiter wallet. And that he doesn't believe that she knows at little as she claims and THAT is the reason why he intends to no longer talk to her. 2/3 more lines and a MUCH better emotional resonance.
To me, while the sentiment might be nice and all, it also matters a lot how a scene comes off (and soap history is ripe with examples of scenes where how it came off was much more important than what actually happened) and in this scene to me the writing didn't do Olli any favors and I just really don't appreciate it at all. Such really "lieblos" careless writing just bothers me and makes me unhappy. If you can't do a scene well, why bother including it at all if you are not gonna make the effort?
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Post by psionycx on Jul 30, 2008 10:13:52 GMT -5
While it's true that soaps do periodically build in recaps or inserttion points for new viewers, they cannot do so very frequently because there's so much going on that they'd never move the story forward. It would always just be reexamination of what has already happened.
I agree that the confrontation between Olli and Oliva could have been better done. But I disagree that Olli looks like a bad guy. After stressing Olli out over the threat that she might out Christian in front of reporters and ruin his boxing career, Olivia's not really sorry. Instead she's now looking for Olli to reassure her that he'll help her pay her perpetual debt that Carla demands. If that were me I would have screamed at her too!
Lars and Carla were also a different matter. I haven't seen the rest of the show so I don't know if she was insured or something against the loss of the money. But their behavior towards Olivia struck me as being like parents scolding a child. While this did ring a little hollow, I don't know how many other options they (the writers) had. The logical course of action would have been to bring in the police, but even a brief jail sentence might not fit in with their plans for Olivia. Unless the Lahnsteins have a dungeon in their castle?
I think the bigger focus was on Olli and Olivia rather than with Lars and Carla because the relationship is more significant. Lars has reasons to dislike Olivia already and therefore doesn't spend much time with her. A further breakdown of their relationship would be largely irrelevant. But Olli is like a brother to her and strain in their relationship is a whole different thing.
At this point Olli (and Lars) doesn't know that Olivia has dealings with Adrian and that she knows more about the kidnapping than she lets on. Hence, Olli's anger is mostly over her being very irresponsible (again), possibly impeding the investigation of the kidnapping (if only he knew), threatening Christian's career (again) and trying to hit Olli himself up for money (which she needs because of her own indiscretions).
Overall, I'd say Olli has a right to be angry and anyone who's watched for the last week or so would probably get why. If anything, viewers who have only started watching recently might wonder why he's feel any loyalty towards her at all, since it's been a while since Olli and Olivia seem to have had any truly positive interactions. For the last few weeks she's mostly been somewhat condescending towards him except when she wants something, at which point she's either fake smiles (please change this 500 Euro note for me) or threatening (tell Lars I have the ransom money and I'll out your boyfriend).
If anything, more backstory refresh would be needed to explain why Olli puts up with her at all!
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 30, 2008 11:44:09 GMT -5
I never said that he looked like the bad guy, just that he didn't really look like the good guy either. The good guy he by all means of logic should be in this situation. Heck, I would say it took active work to make him not all that relatable and neutral and dispassionate instead of good, but they did it. The scene made sure not to particularly empathize with him. Sure, we do, we are Ollian fans, to us he is the essential thing. But I'm willing to bet that nobody else is gonna give him the same benefit in such a badly done scene.
No, it wasn't a big thing. It was a tiny thing, but it still bugged. It speaks of lack of quality and lack of care.
If that was the reason they did a lousy job. Soaps thrive on emotionalism. This scene didn't have any interesting emotions going on and didn't even try to give them any focus. Emotionally the scene was completely worthless and Olli rang very hollow. Olivia I expect to ring hollow since that it a lot of her character, but even she came off as having more believable personality.
Olli's anger and the reasons he gave just weren't credible. Not because he shouldn't be angry. He should be. But the way the scene was written it just didn't address any of the valid issues Olli SHOULD have and instead made him look flat and petty.
I had a similar problem with the first few confrontations between the two that they were just too one note and therefore not appealing and it saddens me to see it continued yet again. Olli and Olivia could be a very complex and interesting relationship (and they were more fun in the past) yet the show instead sucked all emotional poignancy out of it. This is not a problem of what Olli should feel or that Olivia should be excused. Even if you wrote the scenes with the assumption that Olli is mad only and that Olivia is nothing beyond and evil sociopath the scenes still sucked and didn't do Olli any favors and more could have been done with it.
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Post by psionycx on Jul 30, 2008 12:41:52 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see an all out screaming match where Olli finally lays out in detail every grievance he has against Olivia. There's no question for me that this was done in a very compressed time segment and thus lacked some of the heat it could have had.
That said, I do think that it was established that Olivia wasn't playing nice for real. She bemoans at the end of the first face-off with Olli that: "The one time you act like a nice cousin and what do you get out of it? Nothing!"
I think that's significant because it's Olivia's dialogue. It shows some self-awareness that she generally isn't a "nice cousin". It also shows that she expects that she can just just apologize for threatening to blackmail Christian and Olli and that Olli should forgive her simply because she didn't actually out Christian in the end.
Lars "grilling" her was quite a bit less harsh than what she would have endured from the police, who almost certainly would not have believed that Olivia just found the money in the park and knew nothing of the kidnapper. I'm pretty sure she knows that too, since that's why she was scared enough to burn the money and try to pretend to know nothing about it. Her possession of the money, and spending some of it, would be more than a little incriminating.
So she's actually doing pretty well so far. Then Lars and Carla pin her down and demand as punishment that she pay 500 Euros per month to charity. Seems harsh, but willfully destroying 5,000,000 Euros that belong to somebody else, and which were part of ransom money, would probably translate into pretty serious criminal charges. While it is no doubt painful it probably could have been much worse.
Now the next time Olivia sees Olli she's already seemingly forgotten the whole threatening to out Christian thing. It's back to her and her (self-inflicted) problems again. Forgetting that what she just put Olli through she's already looking for sympathy (and money). She also shamelessly grabs and takes a hit off of Olli's drink.
Olivia breezily dismisses any culpability on her own part with an: "Okay, somehow it's my own fault." "Somehow"? There's no "somehow" to it Olivia my dear. It's all her own fault. Especially allowing for her involvement with Adrian.
Olli's explosion could certainly have been better. He'd probably been stressed to the point of nausea since she threatened him. Even though Christian was putting on a brave face and trying to keep Olli from worrying too much, you know this was a big deal for Olli. It would have been better for him to have a dramatic blow-up.
The reasons for Olli's anger were given here. Olivia ran off on a shopping spree with their baby cousin's ransom money. Then he goes into the way she threatened him. He stated his reasons pretty succinctly, although certainly not at length as he ought to have. His reasons were certainly valid ones. I think I would have been more harsh than he was under the circumstances, even allowing for the fact that Olli (unlike the audience) doesn't know about her ties to Adrian.
Indeed, to me (a viewer) Olivia looks even worse than Olli knows her to be because she has a line into the truth about the kidnapping but is concealing it for her own reasons. Now she's put out that after committing some actual crimes (spending some of her own cousin's ransom money on clothes and jewelry, then destroying the rest of the money) she is being punished for something that is "somehow" her own fault.
I don't think she looks at all like a victim here and the only real problem which i agree with you on is that Olli's reaction wasn't more explosive than it was. The justification was certainly there.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 30, 2008 12:53:27 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I just don't buy these explanations at all. Soaps have ways of identifying "the bad one" and they consistently don't do that with Olivia. In this scene it was particularly glaring because Olli should have been the good one in this scene and he wasn't. They made him neutral. It doesn't matter that she is shallow, it is played for laughs. And because they didn't make Olivia the bad one in that convo, Olli got the ass card.
We over-analyze each step, but IMO that doesn't hold water in an entire show context. Soaps paint in broad strokes, so I don't buy for a second that the things we find in detailed analysis of the scenes were intended by the writers in this case at all. They really are just in our heads. The vast majority of soap viewers don't analyze scenes like this and no non-Ollian fan would have a reason to do it with this scene. So, there is no point for the writers to hide interpretation like this in the details when they know nobody will pay attention.
Yes, Olli might have stated his reason and that reason might be valid, but it received zero build up and it didn't ring true at all. I watch the entire show most of the time and I don't buy for a second that they are portraying Olivia as the mean one who is evil-y still hiding her involvement in the abduction. As far as I can see, the abduction is a wrapped up story in the minds of the writers and these recent scenes were there just to wrap it up and make the characters (Olivia, Adrian) free for new adventures.
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Post by ivaniv on Jul 30, 2008 12:57:08 GMT -5
You have a very particular demands on how soap should look like, Lola, including some very mechanical rules how they should deal with standard situations. I find any deviation from that exciting, that's why I like to watch complete VL episodes, because they do not resolve situations in a way one would expect.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 30, 2008 13:00:10 GMT -5
Oh, I'm all about going against the grain. Particularly when it is intentional. But do you really think Olli came across as well written and likable in that scene? I understand that many were looking forward to Olli telling off Olivia, but to me that scene just came off as bad and unlikable.
VL is more than free to include scenes like this, but just because they might be good for VL doesn't mean that they were good for Ollian or for Olli. It seems to me like too many look at this with an ends (yay, I want that annoying bitch out of Olli's life) justify how it is done, but to me it was done badly.
Me? I'm more of the "I don't care WHAT is being done as long as it is done well" school of thought. I'm usually the first one who says people shouldn't be upset if Ollian doesn't get storylines or a lot of screentime anymore, but even if they do throwaway scenes, at least they could be done with quality. (for example, a lot of the recent Christian/Gregor scenes were likable and well done even if they were throwaway).
I'm all for entertainment, which is precisely why this scene bugged me. It was ripe with the potential for great entertainment whether in the form of emotions or humor or whatever else and instead it was just flat. Within the episode it felt particularly boring. And I thing it would have annoyed me even if I hadn't been looking forward to this scene.
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Post by psionycx on Jul 30, 2008 13:19:04 GMT -5
But do you really think Olli came across as well written and likable in that scene? Perhaps not as well-written as he could have been. But my impression here is that they were allocating a very small segment of time to the Olli/Olivia blowup and thus it seemed incomplete. As for likable, actually yes, I think he was. I cannot speak for how it would look to someone who had not tuned in VL ever before, or hadn't in a long-time. But just adding the last few episodes in for context then Olli looks like someone who is legitimately angry. Olivia threatened to out Christian, which could have sunk his boxing career before it even began. Olli loves Christian enormously and has been putting up with a lot of sh** because he wants Christian to be able to pursue his dream. Olivia threatened to bring all of that crashing down so that she could protect herself from being called to account for (only some of) her nefarious deeds (just the ones Olli knows about). Olli comes across as likable not because of how he behaves towards Olivia here but because of how he behaves towards Christian. He agonizes over risking her outing Christian even when Christian tries to reassure him. Then Olivia airily brushes aside the matter as if it were no big deal. Not long after she turns around looking looking for sympathy, soda and possibly money. To me Olli seems likable here because he's angry that she thinks that what she did is no big deal and expects him to just go on being her main supporter. I said in the past that Olivia often takes a contemptuous stance towards him and she certainly did so here. She expected that after doing all kinds of bad things she can just issue a quick apology and Olli should be okay with all of it. He should be able to forgive her for threatening the man he loves (for the second time). I don't see a problem with how Olli reacted in this episode. It could have been done in more detail though.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 30, 2008 13:35:17 GMT -5
I have been watching for a long time. I have paid above average (compare to other viewers) attention to Olli and even I thought the scene was flat. I'm sure it was so even more for viewers who don't bother too much with Ollian.
Yet not nearly enough emotional resonance was attributed to this angle. Yes, Ollian got two sweet scenes out of it and Christian was shown to worry a bit about being outed, but the show didn't bother to show us a lot about either the fear or the relief they were feeling. We infer this relief and this fear but the show didn't actually bother to show it.
To me a show that expects us to make up our own explanations and fill in the blanks has already gone the wrong path. It's not a question of "Well, nobody is so stupid that they wouldn't know that was his reason". Just because we can guess the reason doesn't change that the show didn't sell it and that they do bother to do the same thing with a lot of storylines, characters and motivations (see: gazillion of scenes communicating "Judith wants to be happy with Fabian, but Fabian is stubborn" or "Ansgar wants to save Nathalie or runs against a wall" or "People around Gregor and Rebecca insist that they are in love"; They can bother with all these types of scenes but they can't bother giving Olli 3 more good lines?).
To me the scene was completely insufficient in showing what it should have shown. Just because we can guess what it should have meant doesn't mean that it did its job.
Again, I'm not trying to act like this is a big deal or a huge insult. It's a minor moment. There probably won't be a huge fallout for either Olli or Olivia. But to me a particularly moment was given to them and the writing was of particularly poor quality. Shallow. Unemotional. Rushed. Just badly played out.
I'm guessing/hoping that the next moments will be better. No character or storyline can expect all their moments to be well done. I'm just saying that of all the moments and scenes they had, this was not a good one. It's not an insult, it just didn't do Olli any favors.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jul 30, 2008 13:39:59 GMT -5
I don't see a problem with how Olli reacted in this episode. It could have been done in more detail though. Reading this current debate, I will chime in with my 2p. I think it fell flat on all sides. That's one reason I haven't said anything really about the episode, because when the clip finished I was left wanting. It should have been more than what was the end result, IMO, and it just seemed unfinished & haphazardly done. YMMV.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Jul 30, 2008 14:01:08 GMT -5
Olli is right. Olivia just doesn't get it. She has done some serious things, that could get her into really serious trouble with the police, and yet she's complaining about what Carla and Lars are making her do. Poor Olivia, she's so put upon. At least that's that attitude she's projecting. Somehow she thinks that there shouldn't be any consequences for her. She has no concept of what her threat to blackmail Olli and Christian has done to them. She doesn't understand why just saying "I'm sorry" shouldn't make the whole thing pass over. Especially when she threatens to hurt his sweetie, Olli isn't so likely to easily forgive her. This is something that can really sting. And then she comes in with her attitude and with no sense of her own responsibility in all this. On top of that, she rather cavalierly expects Olli to support her not just as a friend and cousin, but by spotting her cash when she needs it. Further confirming that she has no sense of her own responsibility in all this. I suspect that Olli's speech could have gone on longer, yet Olivia interrupts him to say that something was only a joke. Olli had already reached the last straw, but Olivia added another for good measure. It seems to me that Olli gave not just reasons to be angry, but the very reasons why he should be angry with Olivia.
As to build up, I think that there has been plenty. It's been building over several episodes, but even if you want to restrict it to this one episode, we see that there is a build up. When Olivia comes during the press conference, he is already clearly upset with her and lacking in trust. When she says something wondering why it doesn't seem all patched up, after all she did apologize, Oliver just walks away. That seems to me to be part of a build up that makes his lashing out at Olivia not something that comes out of the blue.
Olli is one of those people who get angry in a more quiet way. By the time they are lashing out at people, they are positively irate. Or at least it seems to me that that is part of Olli's character. As I see the scene, I don't see Olli's anger as understated. Given where it occurs, I wouldn't expect a shouting match at the top of his lungs. They are in No Limits. And despite the amazing and mysterious acoustical environment there, if they did a scene of all out rage, it would have to attract attention. But Olli is retrained here. Not because he isn't that angry, but because he wouldn't be doing himself any favors in getting attention with what he is saying to Olivia. I don't know if he cares for Olivia's sake at this point. Probably not. But he doesn't want to be dragged into all this by someone overhearing something and reporting it. And there is plenty here that could be of interest to the police. It seems to me that he's getting very angry with Olivia, while also seeking to be at least somewhat discreet about it, given where they are.
Lastly, I don't know why one or another of them needs to be shoehorned into this or that category. Why does one character or another have to be "the bad one"? Why should a character or a scene be "likable"? Sure, these are soap characters, but they are more complex and less one dimensional than that. I rather like that Olli has, for once, stood up to Olivia. He's certainly the nice and understanding one. But even the most understanding and even keeled people reach a limit now and then. And if he doesn't break out of that, especially at a point like this, he really risks just becoming a door mat. So I think these scenes have actually done the character of Olli a favor.
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Post by chrollifan on Jul 30, 2008 14:12:17 GMT -5
I add my 2 cents: this scene annoyed me to. Some old arguments between Olivia&Oliver show really Olli in better light and everyone can understand who's to blame. 1. After Olivia told Lars, that Charlie gave to he's former girlfriend money for abortion (because Charlie accidentally uncovered Olivia's lie to Andi). In here 1.56-2.04 de.youtube.com/watch?v=dx_jmbkP17Q&feature=PlayList&p=6BAF5DFF946982F3&index=23and here 3.24-4.13 de.youtube.com/watch?v=XHk9OL2mwaI&feature=PlayList&p=6BAF5DFF946982F3&index=362. After Olivia burned down her house and was only interested about insurance money. In here 1.14-2.47 de.youtube.com/watch?v=hEYqCGzUKpg&feature=PlayList&p=6BAF5DFF946982F3&index=45ETA: "who's do blame" wasn't actually what I meant. Sorry! I just wanted to say that Olli's motives weren't drawn out clearly enough. It's possible that writers (and/or director) wanted to save Olivia's face in this situation. But I still got impression of "fake". I looked back one more time and I think, that the build up phase was the groundwork what really made my mind. It was believable, that Olli wanted to figure out, what Olivia is doing, after he got some clues. Olivia's scheming is ALL WRONG, of course, but the way all this storyline was managed didn't convinced me. It didn't fitted with Ollie's character – I guess it was both, writing and acting. Until now, Olli was written and played as a lovable guy, but now he was turned to a some-kinda prosecutor. I would've bought this story if Lars had done it, but not Olli. And in some of those scenes Olli was played with real rage, that alienated me. He has been angry before, but always in his good-willing, worrying way. In this ransom-story I felt that he has no heart, only some frozen principles. Olli didn't indicated that he is really worried about Olivia, that he wants to help her out of this mess. (Yes, he gave Olivia last chance before going to police, but it seemed to be a formality) He acted like she is a stranger to him, a girl from the street, not the one, who grew up with him. These few scenes with Christian helped somewhat to balance the picture, although they were too sort. Certainly, other people may have seen this in different way, that is only my observation.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Jul 30, 2008 14:37:22 GMT -5
I don't get how "who's to blame" is difficult to see here, especially if you've watched the interaction between Olli and Olivia over the last week or two. But, then, I'm not sure why assigning blame is really important, either.
I'm not sure that I understand, either, why that scene when Olli lashes out at Olivia is seen as wanting in emotion or rushed. I actually think that had Olli spelled out things in a longer speech it would have been too much. It would have gotten too drawn out, and then it would have really lacked emotion and momentum.
Was it the best of writing? No. Was it the best performance by an actor in an Olli role? No. But I guess I don't see it as flat, shallow, unemotional, or lacking in motivation or connection as others do.
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