mgh48
Junior Member
Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on Jul 25, 2008 1:58:09 GMT -5
lola, you've just described one type of sociopath. A minor type, I concede, but sociopath none-the-less.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 25, 2008 2:03:52 GMT -5
Doesn't sociopath depend on whether she actually has real feelings herself though? That get in the way or not? I think she teethers on the edge of sociopathy. She certainly has the world view down pat, the question is whether she herself actually succeeds in fitting into it. Whether at one point she will actually allow herself to get attached to others enough to at least slow down her plans. We know she doesn't want that to happen. And maybe it really won't happen and she will stay a sociopath. I guess it depends on the ability of the actress whether she can sell to you that Olivia has the potential to eventually get stuck enough on somebody that he/they'll be able teach her that she needs to learn unselfish love.
I guess it largely depends on whether you count emotions such as "I really like sex", "I love/want this entirely non-sociopathic person (=Andi)", "I want somebody to love me", "I want companionship", "I don't want to be lonely" (+"and I'm willing to sacrifice so and so many material things in order to get/retain that") which Olivia has displayed rarely but on occasion as essentially selfish too (Olivia wants these things for herself) or as rather normal human feelings (because they don't really gain her much other than human companionship).
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Post by danuta on Jul 25, 2008 3:45:19 GMT -5
SynapticmisfirePlease, I beg you keep Hobbes. I love every scene with Oliver and Christian. I will be a little disappointed if anyone from NoLimits is very surprised by the fact that Oliver and Christian are a couple. I don't know too much about Olivia but I guess it worked more than once the threats and now she thinks she can deal with Oliver in this manner too. I saw the look of her face in the end of clip and she doesn't seemed that she is really willing to out Christian. But... Gregor and Sebastian (thanks Ivan for the cap) are so cute. BTW Sebastian slept with his girlfriend's mother before they got together, right? THANK YOU IVANIV, NANNA AND THIKON2
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maya
Full Member
Posts: 2,137
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Post by maya on Jul 25, 2008 3:52:55 GMT -5
Olli and Christian are adorable together, I loved today episode!! Ivan and Nanna thank you for your hard work
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 25, 2008 3:53:38 GMT -5
Sebastian got together with Lydia. Then they broke up for about roughly 5 mintues because a scheme by Ansgar (basically, it boiled down to Lydia thinking Sebastian had lied to her when he hadn't and swore up and down that he hadn't). In these 5 minutes that they were broken up he slept with Lydia's mom. Of course the next day or so Lydia was on his porch again announcing that she was wrong to distrust Sebastian and wanted him back. To quote friends: "We were on a breeeeeeak!" Then there was some back and forth drama, but bascially Sebastian jumped rather quickly on the chance to get back with Lydia (after some attempts to "push her away for her own good without telling her why"). Oh and Lydia's mom is pregnant now and doesn't know whether Lydia's dad or Lydia's boyfriend is the father.
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j9l45
Junior Member
Posts: 622
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Post by j9l45 on Jul 25, 2008 4:01:33 GMT -5
Ivan, thank you SO much!! So many drool worthy screencaps again... For some weird reason I think this one's sexy... Must be the tongue... Nanna, thank you so much for all your hard work!! amber once again you've read my mind.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 25, 2008 4:11:51 GMT -5
Must be a girl thing
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j9l45
Junior Member
Posts: 622
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Post by j9l45 on Jul 25, 2008 4:51:20 GMT -5
Rebecca totally stole Christian's line. "No risk, no fun." And in English again too! The writers must really like that phrase. P.S. Still love Olivia (and her desperation.)
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Post by psionycx on Jul 25, 2008 9:22:39 GMT -5
I also don't think that Olivia is necessarily acting out of character other than she is being particularly dumb lately ;D Plus, I think she needs to learn that sometimes lying down and begging for mercy from people like Olli and Lars is just her best strategy as opposed to trying to play her solo schemes again and again as they just drag her deeper. Christian's position that he took with Olli basically was that Olivia shouldn't be protected from the consequences of her mistakes because then she just goes out and makes the same ones over again. This makes sense. Olivia has yet to learn real consequence, which is why she digs herself in deeper. Lars would probably have been angry over the portion of the ransom money she already spent, but I doubt he would have tried to throw her in jail or anything, and Olli would have certainly begged him not to. But in typical Olivia fashion her concern was not with Sophia and the kidnapping, it was with herself and the trouble she might have gotten into for not returning (and spending some of) the ransom money. I honestly believe that if she could have safely exchanged the money she would have probably run off to another city or even another country. As for Olli, I think her attitude towards him is one of mild contempt. She appreciates that he's the only one who reliably puts up with her and she's glad to have someone like that around. But she's demonstrated twice now that she won't hesitate to blackmail him if he doesn't do what she wants him to do. That's extremely sleazy of her given how loyal Olli is towards her. Of course she doesn't see it that way. To her, the fact that he was pressuring her to turn in the money at all was an act of hostility. She's not big on people telling her to do something she wasn't to do. That she was profiteering off of a relative's travails didn't provoke any guilt in her. The money was what mattered. Again, if she could have gotten away with the money without getting caught I doubt that she would have agonized over skipping town. Christian has a less rosy view of her than Olli does, and so he's taking a more stern position. Also, I'm sure he worries about Olli getting into trouble for shielding Olivia. And let's face it, Christian went to prison for a crime he didn't even commit. I'm sure that the idea of anything similar happening to Olli upsets him greatly. So better Olli goes to the cops than get tangled in Olivia's misadventures.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 25, 2008 9:44:08 GMT -5
I think Olivia has suffered and seen as much consequences as there is on a soap (which means: not jail as that would take characters off canvas). She lost Andi, she was poisoned, regularly gets blackmailed and regularly gets humiliated. She rarely succeeds in her schemes and never gets to enjoy the fruits of her schemes for long. Lars and Charlie have ousted her on various occasions. She is treated like bad air by lot of people she used to be friendly with (Coco, Christian, Gregor).
I don't think that feels contempt for Olli. Sure she is willing to go toe to toe with him if she feels he is messing with her, but I think in her mind it's not personal. For example, it seemed very obvious to me that when she blackmailed Olli the first time, she honestly didn't see it as a bad thing because to her getting to do a photoshoot at the boxing club was a gain for everybody, so in her mind there probably wasn't anything wrong with helping things along. So yeah, I do think that there are parts of Olli that she doesn't particularly like (particularly when he is "being a bore" in her eyes) but overall I think she genuinely likes his personality and screwing him over is nothing personal to her. Obviously, she lacks empathy, but that's nothing new.
As for leaving town, well, considering that it was Adrian's money that probably would have been a wise choice anyway ;D
I agree that Lars would have bitched at her, but also would have protected her. Which makes it a stupid choice by her not to tell him. Before, it was a cold choice, she didn't want to give up the money. But now? Whether she gives the money to Lars or burns it, either way she doesn't have any money. Yet she would rather burn the money than trust Lars. Maybe she was afraid that Lars would still hold it against her that Olivia was involved in setting Lars up with Kitty which Lars found out a while ago. But I tend to think it's because Olivia tends to picture people a lot meaner than they really are (probably basing it on her own personality and what SHE would do in a similar situation). Remember her nightmare of growing old and having Olli and Charlie be mean to her and mocking her?
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Post by psionycx on Jul 25, 2008 10:19:07 GMT -5
That's just the thing, Olivia doesn't see good in anybody because she bases other people on herself - and she's a pretty treacherous person.
Olivia threatens Christian because she knows that he's Olli's soft spot. But it's a really ugly thing to do. Not as ugly as feeding cocaine to an addict, but for Olivia ends always justify the means. If she had any self-awareness she might wonder if her problems might be of her own making but she doesn't think that way. Every bad thing is someone else's fault. Her own actions are always justified in her mind because she's just trying to get what she wants (or deserves as she sees it).
Yes, bad things happen to her, but she always sees them as somebody else's fault. But blackmailing Olli the first time was sleazy given how he's probably the most loyal person to her, and let's be honest the photo shoot benefited her a lot more than it did Christian, who mostly just got some nice photos out of it. A large part of the initial coming out business was provoked by Wolle's homophobic ranting about all the modeling people in the gym.
At the same time, Olli's not being mean here. The money really was technically stolen and Olli was really just trying to keep her from getting tangled up in what was already a big mess. He most certainly would have helped smooth things over with Lars and kept Olivia out of serious trouble. But Olivia being Olivia she first had to spend some of the money (bad idea), lie about having it (bad idea) and then burned it (really bad idea) and then blackmailed Olli (really stupid idea).
Unfortunately, she lacks even the common sense to see that she's not cut out for intrigue. She either overplays her hand, or else she panics. But what's really loathsome about her is the way she is prepared to go against her family, who already cut her more slack than she deserves.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 25, 2008 10:32:26 GMT -5
To be fair, Olivia wasn't aware of Wolle at this point. In her mind, she wasn't harming Christian and for her getting to model is of great thing since it is something she would really love to do but Tanja doesn't let her.
Not to mention she hangs out with a lot of worst people on VL, Adrian, Ansgar and Tanja. That probably doesn't do much to restore one's faith in humanity.
Especially considering that these badguys who do a lot more physical violence (Tanja: killed a few people, poisoned Sarah; Ansgar: tried to poison his father, slapped his wife; Adrian: abducted Nathalie, abducted baby Sophia) actually mostly get away with it. Ansgar was never jailed and his wife still wants him, Tanja has a prestigious modelling company and blackmailed her way into having all charges against her dropped, Adrian has most people believing his story about how he helped save Sophia.
I think that that is her world view though. She might realize that she gets herself into trouble, but I think she is firmly convinced that she would be even worse off if she wasn't shrewd (also, I think she is just baaaad at being patient). She firmly believes in the whole nice girls finish last doctrine despite the fact that she constantly sees counter examples in front of her own eyes. Judith getting Fabian rather than the bitchy Lisa (respectively Lisa only being capable of temporarily splitting up Fabian and Judith), Olli having a happy relationship despite the fact that he didn't have to be a schemer to get it.
Also, I think she also believes that most people who pretend to be good and nice actually aren't as holy underneath (based on some of the insults she threw at Coco and how happy it made her that (in her eyes) holier than thou Coco had made out with Olli).
That said, I still think that every once in a while she experiences a glimpse of awareness. For example, a few weeks ago Ansgar came to her and offered her money (10.000 Euro or so?) to split up Nathalie and Lars. She said no. He asked her why and she said that for once she was getting along with her family and she didn't want to mess that up again. Ansgar then instead used blackmail and Olivia had to do it anyway, now just without getting paid. So yeah, she has glimpses, it just usually doesn't last long.
I do completely agree that Olli isn't being mean her. It's just that in her Olivia World mind she perceives everything as an attack. Kinda like when she was pretending to have Andi's baby and thought Charlie was the reason why Andi found out and so she lashed out against Charlie. (btw, I think I should mention that Olivia's very first act when she came to town was to knowingly sleep with Charlie's boyfriend Bern, record it and used it to break up Bernd and Charlie)
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Post by ivaniv on Jul 25, 2008 10:36:54 GMT -5
I thought that the concept of blackmail is to threaten somebody with some harm if they don't comply
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 25, 2008 10:46:38 GMT -5
So far she hasn't threatened somebody with physical harm as far as I can remember. She blackmailed Charlie by promising she would tell Lars Charlie's secret about his childhood sweetheart having an abortion at Charlie's request and she threatened Olli with outing Christian (and so far she hasn't outed Christian and therefore caused him real monetary/job related harm). Personally, in a soap context, I'm old fashioned. I tend to consider physical crimes (killing somebody, trying to kill somebody, poisoning somebody, beating somebody, rape) worse than non-physical crimes. And of course a big influence on how big a crime is considered in a soap context is how reversible the effect is. For example Charlie's secret caused a huge splash, but eventually Charlie and Lars made up. Now if the secret had been responsible for a permantent rift and had caused Charlie and Lars to hate each other to all eternity then Olivia's "crime" would have been worse because the effects would have been greater. Just like it is a worse crime to keep a supercouple apart than to split up a couple that sucked anyway. Or just like most "business" crimes don't really count a lot to a villain's badness level because we tend to care less about things than about people/characters. I agree that giving Sarah drugs is Olivia's worst crime so far because it is physical crime. I found faking a pregnancy to Andi pretty insidious as well because Andi was a nice guy, she was supposed to have loved him in her own way and it's a very, very personal lie (Andi was coming to grasp with becoming a father, with staying with Olivia forever, was looking forward to the baby... only to find out that there never was a baby). Still it bears remembering that Tanja actually successfully KILLED people (and made it look like a suicide).
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Post by psionycx on Jul 25, 2008 11:23:34 GMT -5
I thought that the concept of blackmail is to threaten somebody with some harm if they don't comply The harm may be physical, monetary or social. Obviously, Olivia knew that outing Christian would cause him some harm otherwise it wouldn't be usable as blackmail leverage in the first place. The harm was 1) in the potential for damaging his relationship with his brother and 2) the potential for harming his boxing career (Olivia's canny enough to know that homosexuality and sports culture don't mix well). Even though Gregor is no longer an issue, Olivia knows that Christian's boxing career still is, and that is why she's still using this as leverage with Olli. I think that's why Olivia had such a sour look on her face when she saw Christian and Olli getting intimate in No Limits. If the two of them are out as a couple she loses her only blackmail lever with them. It's actually in her best interest for them to stay closeted. The threat of collapsing Christian's career is a valuable tool for her. Seemingly incapable of comprehending love or loyalty, Olivia prefers to deal with others from a position of threat. Olli may scold her for her foolishness but he would never see her seriously harmed or thrown in jail if he could prevent it somehow. But nonetheless Olivia is prepared to threaten him by threatening Christian. Although, realistically, outing Christian does carry a potential threat of physical harm. Axel and the Neanderthals certainly seem like the sort eager to gay bash. As an aside, I do think that she was a little contemptuous of Olli's patience in waiting for Christian. If it were her she would have probably just tried to get him drunk and lure him into bed while inebriated. That Olli's patience was rewarded by Christian actually falling in love with him for real is probably a little lost on her. Christian needed the time Olli gave him, as it enabled him to internalize his feelings so that when it really did come to a head Christian was prepared to acknowledge his own feelings.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 25, 2008 11:35:07 GMT -5
I don't think she is capable of thinking that far ahead. I think she was just being grinchy because her life currently sucks (in regards to the money and Adrian and Tanja).
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mgh48
Junior Member
Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on Jul 25, 2008 11:39:13 GMT -5
Lola, maybe I'm being too hard on Olivia---yeah, I can concede it was too much of a temptation to have all that cash on hand. But, wow...she had no thought for her niece or is it cousin? I guess, cousin. That's cold! Very cold.
Geoff
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Post by ivaniv on Jul 25, 2008 11:39:13 GMT -5
I agree, being miserable herself happy people make her sick.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 25, 2008 11:43:28 GMT -5
I don't know. Personally I never got the impression that Olivia is that close to Lars' baby. She is not that close to Lars in the first place and the baby doesn't really live with him either. Plus, my guess? The baby is safe by now. So in her mind, why would she worry? She only found the money after the abduction was already over and the baby had been returned.
That said, I was quite annoyed that they never even told Olli about the abduction while the abduction was going on. They had a scene of Lars telling Charlie and Charlie comforting him and I think Olivia found out mostly by accident because Lars snapped at her when she tried to make him come to some model party. But generally the Schneiders as a family weren't terribly involved. It was more of a Lahnstein story.
I'm actually surprised that Olivia hasn't been more annoyed at Olli and Christian's relationship and not more contemptuous of Christian taking up all of Olli's time.
I never got that feeling. I thought that it was clear that she didn't get why he was doing it (and that she would have acted differently), but I never got the impression that it bothered her that he did.
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mgh48
Junior Member
Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on Jul 25, 2008 11:52:13 GMT -5
Yeah, I can see her reacting like that and then trying her best to ruin the relationship so she can have more time with Olli. Of course, I suppose she realizes that the end of that relationship would make him so miserable, he wouldn't spend time with anyone. And, if he ever found out she was responsible, that would end it all, anyway.
As for her cousin: It would be extremely strange for an American family, unless they were estranged or unfamiliar with each other, to not feel some sort of familial bond---especially for a baby. Well, here in my neck of the woods, at least. Who knows how they do things up North! heh ;D
Geoff
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 25, 2008 11:55:49 GMT -5
Olivia? Bond with a baby? ;D
Naw, in her mind she would figure that he would be miserable and would use her as a shoulder to cry on and she could drag him out to party to meet new guys to help him get over Christian.
I don't think she ever thinks that far.
But alas, she was too busy coking up Sarah and trying to find a way to wash the money to care what Olli and Christian were doing most of the time.
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Post by ivaniv on Jul 25, 2008 12:05:53 GMT -5
I think that for her the two are a proof what a nonsense is to be in love. Everybody can easily use it against you, it's a weakness. And excuse me now, the video is now ready to be cut
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Post by psionycx on Jul 25, 2008 12:15:27 GMT -5
I'm actually surprised that Olivia hasn't been more annoyed at Olli and Christian's relationship and not more contemptuous of Christian taking up all of Olli's time. Given some of the things she's been up to, it might be to her advantage that Olli hasn't had more time to pay attention to her and I think she knows that. What Olli doesn't know can't hurt her. Seriously, can you imagine his reaction if he ever found out about Sarah? I never got that feeling. I thought that it was clear that she didn't get why he was doing it (and that she would have acted differently), but I never got the impression that it bothered her that he did. To me she seemed annoyed that he was agonizing over Christian the way he was given that Christian seemed unavailable to him. Olivia can understand possessiveness and even infatuation. But I think that love is still a bit of a mystery to her. Olli wasn't playing by the rules she would have used in his situation. The waiting around for Christian to sort out his feelings seemed to irritate her. However, Olli didn't have the option of faking a pregnancy so...
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Post by psionycx on Jul 25, 2008 12:22:07 GMT -5
As for her cousin: It would be extremely strange for an American family, unless they were estranged or unfamiliar with each other, to not feel some sort of familial bond---especially for a baby. Well, here in my neck of the woods, at least. Who knows how they do things up North! heh ;D Massive New Jersey Catholic extended family here. We can effortlessly pack a church with cousins out to the third or fourth degree for a baptism. In addition, unlike the Southern folk, we actually know how to throw real weddings! ;D So yes, Olivia not being familiar with Lars's daughter is rather odd in my eyes, especially given how close they all live. But I'm sure that a paid nanny hired without references from a third world country is a more trustworthy babysitter than Olivia, so it's not as if she's probably allowed within spitting distance of the child.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 25, 2008 12:25:27 GMT -5
I don't think that she was irritated/annoyed by it because when she is irritated she doesn't mince word or even does something about it. (for example, she was clearly annoyed when Olli didn't offer her a place in the flatshare after Coco left and the place went to Judith instead) Or rather she didn't strike me as more irritated by it than a normal, non sociopathic galpal would be in this situation. (I definitely would roll my eyes if a galpal of mine was obsessing over a gay guy, or just somebody who in my eyes isn't worthy of her; I'd do pretty much the same thing that Olivia for the whole beginning of the C&O courtship, tell me friend he/she could do better, but accept that he/she has chosen this particular person even if I don't get it)
So for me it was more of the "how strange these 'normal people' aliens act" or maybe "rolling my eyes because he is being embarassing" kind of feeling rather than contempt. Actually I always got the feeling that she found the Olli/Christian romance quite entertaining, like her own personal soap opera (and she always came for new gossip).
I don't buy that it was contempt because we have SEEN Olivia do contempt and it doesn't look anything like this. (take for example Olivia and Lisa bitching about Judith or some of the Olivia/Coco interactions) I always got the impression she considered it a strange spleen of Olli's that she didn't understand but respected that he wanted to do it. Because if something really bothers Olivia she does more than bitch about it, she does something about it.
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