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Post by psionycx on Jun 1, 2008 19:47:56 GMT -5
Olli doesn't act to defend either Christian nor Olivia when they squabble at each other. And I don't think Olli said anything cause he was more focused on convincing Christian not to dope in that moment than worrying about some bitchy comment from Olivia. I'd say in that moment Olli was more unhappy at the thought of Christian doping than Olivia snarking. I definitely agree that Olli didn't want to get lured off topic by allowing the argument to become about Olivia's snooping or snarky commentary. By the same token, there wasn't any "don't talk to my cousin that way" sort of response either. Olli is aware that Olivia is a troublemaker, but I think he views it as a immature teenage girl regression kind of thing. He doesn't want to believe that there's genuine malice behind any of her actions, even though Charlie most certainly thinks so. Indeed, Olli is the one who tends to defend Olivia to Charlie. For now I think she's getting away with her games towards Christian because Olli sees her as harmless. However, it would be very interesting to see what would happen if some genuine harm came to Christian as a consequence of one of her actions. Olli seems to be heavy on the surrogate family thing, with olivia as a sister and Charlie as a mother. Otherwise I wouldn't understand why he'd deal with someone like her. Personally I wouldn't want someone like her anywhere near me. |
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 1, 2008 20:17:44 GMT -5
Olli doesn't act to defend either Christian nor Olivia when they squabble at each other. And I don't think Olli said anything cause he was more focused on convincing Christian not to dope in that moment than worrying about some bitchy comment from Olivia. I'd say in that moment Olli was more unhappy at the thought of Christian doping than Olivia snarking. I definitely agree that Olli didn't want to get lured off topic by allowing the argument to become about Olivia's snooping or snarky commentary. By the same token, there wasn't any "don't talk to my cousin that way" sort of response either. Olli is aware that Olivia is a troublemaker, but I think he views it as a immature teenage girl regression kind of thing. He doesn't want to believe that there's genuine malice behind any of her actions, even though Charlie most certainly thinks so. Indeed, Olli is the one who tends to defend Olivia to Charlie. For now I think she's getting away with her games towards Christian because Olli sees her as harmless. However, it would be very interesting to see what would happen if some genuine harm came to Christian as a consequence of one of her actions. Olli seems to be heavy on the surrogate family thing, with olivia as a sister and Charlie as a mother. Otherwise I wouldn't understand why he'd deal with someone like her. Personally I wouldn't want someone like her anywhere near me. As I and others have already stated, Olli knows the dislike goes both ways. Christian is no victim of Olivia's. Their unfriendly comments are very much mutual. Olivia is an adult and knows how to defend herself, so I am assuming Olli sees no need to defend her when she's quite capable of defending herself. If she was genuinely hurt by something, I am sure Olli would step in then. Plus Olli's Switzerland when it comes to Christian and Olivia (as much as he can be). Anyhoo, reading your assumptions of how Olli views Olivia, I don't think there is anything he's ever said or indicated he sees her as you do. I don't think Olli views Olivia that way at all. (Though I haven't seen a lot of the early stuff, maybe a longterm viewer can chime in on that factor? Lola? Nanna?) From what I've gathered from comments and some history I've read, I think he knows she had a messed up childhood -much like his own - and that has scarred her to be the person she is now. Olivia, despite not being a saint nor a wallflower, is not Tanja. Your description of her really fits Tanja more than Olivia. Moreso, as selfish as Olivia can be, it seems like you don't see that she does love Olli so every assumption you've put forth that she will hurt Christian has that factor as a basis & I don't think the audience has ever been shown that Olivia doesn't love Olli. Obviously YMMV. Olivia may threaten to reveal their relationship to Gregor or the world if she thinks it will help her but I'd bet money she won't because Olli's the only person she does seem to love and despite everything, she won't jeopardize that. Notice her counting til Olli or Christian gave in to her for the modeling gig. Did anyone really believe she was about to tell Gregor? Olivia is much too Scarlett O'Hara for that. I get that you think Olivia is close to evil incarnate but how you see her and how we've been told Olli feels about her aren't similar. Maybe his tolerance is higher because he knows where she's coming from, I'm not sure what it is other than he loves her and she is his confidante despite her behavior at times so on some level there is trust from him toward her. I am a bit baffled at an almost stubborn insistence in not only painting Olivia as dark as possible, but Olli as a naive wuss for not booting her out of his life and Christian as a victim unable to fight his own battles. You don't have to like her... different strokes... but I think things are being laid at her door when the evidence we've been shown is contrary to the accusation. It's like Madonna or Whore when sometimes there are shades of gray... |
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mgh48
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Post by mgh48 on Jun 1, 2008 20:19:15 GMT -5
I have to agree: it was Chris who told her to get out. Olli was, once again, merely standing ready to intervene, being primarily ready to tear Chris's head off for even *thinking* about steroids.
And, I have to say (as I have before) that Olivia is one of my favorites. If something needs telling, she's going to be the one to tell it, for good or ill.
Geoff
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Post by psionycx on Jun 1, 2008 20:35:54 GMT -5
I never said Olivia was evil incarnate. However, she is petty, disinterested in others' feelings and an instigator.
For example the way she encouraged Lisa to be increasingly nasty towards Judith at the dinner at the flat share when Judith moved in. Olivia sees that kind of thing as sport, and she will gleefully encourage trouble for her own amusement.
She also possesses no morals, and is prepared to lie and cheat for personal gain. Mostly on a minor scale but she's young yet. She also seems to consider blackmail to be a normal part of personal and professional relationships.
Really she's rather like a bratty teenager, which ironically is what I think makes Olli feel protective of her. He doesn't see her as evil, just immature. For example, her failure to sign her insurance policy. That was symptomatic of her lack of seriousness and adult behavior. Olli sees all this and just thinks she hasn't got her act together.
But I don't think he's seen the worst of her either, he's only heard about it secondhand. So he treats her like a little sister who's slightly troublesome on occasion. Her butting heads with Christian goes all the way back to when he was still with Coco. But Christian has good reason not to like or trust her, and she certainly doesn't behave towards him in a way that suggests he should do either.
If anything Olli has blinders on when it comes to her.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 1, 2008 21:31:07 GMT -5
I never said Olivia was evil incarnate. However, she is petty, disinterested in others' feelings and an instigator. For example the way she encouraged Lisa to be increasingly nasty towards Judith at the dinner at the flat share when Judith moved in. Olivia sees that kind of thing as sport, and she will gleefully encourage trouble for her own amusement. She also possesses no morals, and is prepared to lie and cheat for personal gain. Mostly on a minor scale but she's young yet. She also seems to consider blackmail to be a normal part of personal and professional relationships. Really she's rather like a bratty teenager, which ironically is what I think makes Olli feel protective of her. He doesn't see her as evil, just immature. For example, her failure to sign her insurance policy. That was symptomatic of her lack of seriousness and adult behavior. Olli sees all this and just thinks she hasn't got her act together. But I don't think he's seen the worst of her either, he's only heard about it secondhand. So he treats her like a little sister who's slightly troublesome on occasion. Her butting heads with Christian goes all the way back to when he was still with Coco. But Christian has good reason not to like or trust her, and she certainly doesn't behave towards him in a way that suggests he should do either. If anything Olli has blinders on when it comes to her. Ok, you didn't state Olivia was evil incarnate, you implied it. Hence my response that when I read your posts about her ended with my coming to that conclusion. It's like opinions about her are being put down as almost factual information even though a lot of what is said in your posts of she and Olli's relationship is based on what you think of her but not necessarily what we've seen nor been told. I'm trying to go off of what the audience has been told and what we've seen as to why I disagree with your assessment of not just Olivia but her relationship with Olli. Olivia will definitely instigate an already volatile situation for amusement. Usually it bites her in the ass, but it's something she's totally not adverse to doing. Then again, from what I've read, Lisa went along with it and often is bitchy on her own with people, so while Olivia nudged Lisa, it isn't like Lisa went along unwillingly and Lisa seemed pretty much open to anything that would trash Judith in front of Fabian since she was jealous that Fabian wasn't interested in her. (and let's not forget Olli jumped on Olivia twice at that same dinner for a few snarky comments she made) Olivia is just not compassionate with most people. That's obviously a personality trait that could use some work but it's not uncommon nor unheard of to know people who are not sympathetic to others plights. However, she is interested in Olli's feelings and that is one reason he goes to her to talk about things that trouble him. I don't see Olivia as without morals. Her idea of morality is not something we'd prefer to live by but aside from what I think, I don't think the audience has ever been shown that she has no morals whatsoever. I think we have seen she will bend the rules to get what she wants but that is not equal to being totally without morals. Blinders? Have we seen where Olli has blinders when it comes to Olivia? He does call her out on shit more often than not. Just because it isn't the route of making her feel small or a failure or cruel doesn't mean he doesn't call her out. If Olli didn't know Olivia well, then his response would likely be something much less patient & tolerant than it is. It's like I feel like when I read your comments about Olivia and Oliver, what we've been told and what's been shown to us has been substituted for assumptions that haven't in any way been proven.  And I find it totally ok that Christian doesn't like Olivia cause I don't think he has to. Vice-versa. I also like that there is actually storyline continuity as to why he doesn't like her. But Christian not liking her doesn't make her less than just like her not liking him doesn't make him less than. What would make either Christian or Olivia less than is if either tried to make Olli pick between them. As long as that doesn't happens - and it's honestly something I can't see either Christian nor Olivia pulling since they may not like each other but they love Olli - who cares that they don't like each other? In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't much matter. |
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 1, 2008 21:37:41 GMT -5
I never said Olivia was evil incarnate. However, she is petty, disinterested in others' feelings and an instigator. For example the way she encouraged Lisa to be increasingly nasty towards Judith at the dinner at the flat share when Judith moved in. Olivia sees that kind of thing as sport, and she will gleefully encourage trouble for her own amusement. She also possesses no morals, and is prepared to lie and cheat for personal gain. Mostly on a minor scale but she's young yet. She also seems to consider blackmail to be a normal part of personal and professional relationships. Really she's rather like a bratty teenager, which ironically is what I think makes Olli feel protective of her. He doesn't see her as evil, just immature. For example, her failure to sign her insurance policy. That was symptomatic of her lack of seriousness and adult behavior. Olli sees all this and just thinks she hasn't got her act together. But I don't think he's seen the worst of her either, he's only heard about it secondhand. So he treats her like a little sister who's slightly troublesome on occasion. Her butting heads with Christian goes all the way back to when he was still with Coco. But Christian has good reason not to like or trust her, and she certainly doesn't behave towards him in a way that suggests he should do either. If anything Olli has blinders on when it comes to her. She's awful. (Why mince words?) The 'extenuating circumstance' is that she's played by a very, very appealing actress whose presence we enjoy. But that's at odds with the character Olivia's ever-growing slate of serious, morally reprehensible crimes. "Bratty teenager"--even by today's very bratty standard--doesn't even come close to doing her justice. When Olli attempted to convince Coco and Christian that Olivia's not really all that horrible, they made it clear that they know her better than he does, concisely educating Olli about the pregnancy fraud. And then he too was horrified, just like anyone with a more or less intact sense of morality would be. But he's got a soft heart, so he puts the worst of what he knows to be true of her out of his mind--actually by now rather incredibly since he's not a push-over generally, and seems not easily gulled--and she's up to new mischief with astonishing frequency. However, given her evil--yes, evil--potential, most people living in usual circumstances could not afford to put up with her, and, if they had any choice at all in the matter, wouldn't--in fact, Christian's attitude toward her, precisely. |
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Post by psionycx on Jun 1, 2008 21:43:23 GMT -5
Bonobochick, it's just my feeling here. If this were the real world and it were me, I wouldn't want Olivia anywhere near me. My bull**** threshold is extremely low and I wouldn't want anyone who acts like Olivia does in my life. The first blackmail attempt and I would make sure she learned never to come near me again.
And I don't see the sympathy you seem to see in her. I think Olli goes to her because he thinks she's sympathetic. I think she listens because she loves juicy gossip and Olli is as rich a source as any around there. he's also fun for going clubbing with. But I have yet to see her really doing anything for him other than listen to juicy gossip or go clubbing. If he were less entertaining I doubt she'd hang around him so much.
Plus, he brings the added benefit of holding Charlie's dislike of her in check. That alone justifies keeping him around.
She's like one of the characters on Gossip Girl. Not really a strong representative of female character but more interesting because of all the foolish and/or petty things she does.
Then again, we're not exactly batting a thousand on good female characters on this show. I had high hopes for Judith but this whole Constantin/Fabian thing has lowered my opinion of her. Are any of the ones we don't see in these Ollian-centric clips any better?
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mgh48
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Post by mgh48 on Jun 1, 2008 21:46:00 GMT -5
Good discussion on Olivia (my 3rd fav on the show!).
I don't know her background, but from a few things Charlie has said about their family, I can understand how things might've turned out this way. Dare I say it, but it's the same thing, but to lesser degree one finds in Harry Potter. Similar hardships afflict both Harry and Voldemort, and we can witness the dramatic differences between them. Voldemort didn't have an Olli to mitigate his final outcome; but Olivia does.
I think a vital episode has yet to be cap'ed: the one where Olivia is at Schneiders and overhears a table of women chatting and goes into a daydream where she is scorned and ridiculed by both Olli and Charlie. That scenario seemed to have a vivid impact on our anti-heroine. The German flew too fast for me to catch, alas, but apparently she was overcome with the notion of her own lackluster life AND concern for possible derision from both Olli and Charlie. BTW, if it has been cap'ed already, please pardon me as I will search it out on the instant should anyone care to inform me otherwise.
Olivia has been done badly and so shall she do to all others---sparing Olli as best she can (she even tries to tell him that she screwed-up and let CoCo know he kissed Christian. Olli blew her off, so she was thinking: well, I tried. Moving on...LOL)
Olivia is right for the wrong reasons. I hope, one day, she truly falls in love---really, absolutely. Then we shall see her pangs of agony as she tries to convince everyone around her that 'it's for real' with limited success, no doubt. Can you imagine a scenario wherein Christian is the only one to believe her? LOL
Geoff
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 2, 2008 0:01:05 GMT -5
I never said Olivia was evil incarnate. However, she is petty, disinterested in others' feelings and an instigator. For example the way she encouraged Lisa to be increasingly nasty towards Judith at the dinner at the flat share when Judith moved in. Olivia sees that kind of thing as sport, and she will gleefully encourage trouble for her own amusement. She also possesses no morals, and is prepared to lie and cheat for personal gain. Mostly on a minor scale but she's young yet. She also seems to consider blackmail to be a normal part of personal and professional relationships. Really she's rather like a bratty teenager, which ironically is what I think makes Olli feel protective of her. He doesn't see her as evil, just immature. For example, her failure to sign her insurance policy. That was symptomatic of her lack of seriousness and adult behavior. Olli sees all this and just thinks she hasn't got her act together. But I don't think he's seen the worst of her either, he's only heard about it secondhand. So he treats her like a little sister who's slightly troublesome on occasion. Her butting heads with Christian goes all the way back to when he was still with Coco. But Christian has good reason not to like or trust her, and she certainly doesn't behave towards him in a way that suggests he should do either. If anything Olli has blinders on when it comes to her. She's awful. (Why mince words?) The 'extenuating circumstance' is that she's played by a very, very appealing actress whose presence we enjoy. But that's at odds with the character Olivia's ever-growing slate of serious, morally reprehensible crimes. "Bratty teenager"--even by today's very bratty standard--doesn't even come close to doing her justice. When Olli attempted to convince Coco and Christian that Olivia's not really all that horrible, they made it clear that they know her better than he does, concisely educating Olli about the pregnancy fraud. And then he too was horrified, just like anyone with a more or less intact sense of morality would be. But he's got a soft heart, so he puts the worst of what he knows to be true of her out of his mind--actually by now rather incredibly since he's not a push-over generally, and seems not easily gulled--and she's up to new mischief with astonishing frequency. However, given her evil--yes, evil--potential, most people living in usual circumstances could not afford to put up with her, and, if they had any choice at all in the matter, wouldn't--in fact, Christian's attitude toward her, precisely. I like Christian, but the character is not always right nor perfect, plus whom he likes and doesn't like is frankly immaterial to what makes any other character good or bad. And evil? Well, when she kills, tortures and maims, then sure but when she lies and steals? IMO, that's a bit strong. Selfish & manipulative? Sure. Though if lying and cheating makes someone evil, then that's pretty much the entire cast of the show being evil right there if we're dealing in absolutes or no-tolerance ideals of morality. Or is it a sliding scale? And that "extenuating circumstance" is your opinion as there might be folks who like her for more than that one reason just like there are people who dislike her for various reasons. |
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mgh48
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Post by mgh48 on Jun 2, 2008 0:09:22 GMT -5
Bchick, please edit this sentence:
And that "extenuating circumstance" is your opinion as there might be folks who like her for than that reason just like there are various reasons why people dislike her.
because it's not making much sense to me in English.
Also (don't you love that 'also' has a different meaning in German? heh), I'm wondering why you feel the need to defend Olivia? Subjectively, she really doesn't need or want your defense. She's quite adequate unto herself---at least for now. We can chortle about the Golden Boy with feet of clay as we wish...or, Golden Girl, in this case, nicht wahr?
Any writer worth his salt will soon make use of Olivia in the proper manner.
Methinks
;D
Geoff
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 2, 2008 0:16:46 GMT -5
Bonobochick, it's just my feeling here. If this were the real world and it were me, I wouldn't want Olivia anywhere near me. My bull**** threshold is extremely low and I wouldn't want anyone who acts like Olivia does in my life. The first blackmail attempt and I would make sure she learned never to come near me again. And I don't see the sympathy you seem to see in her. I think Olli goes to her because he thinks she's sympathetic. I think she listens because she loves juicy gossip and Olli is as rich a source as any around there. he's also fun for going clubbing with. But I have yet to see her really doing anything for him other than listen to juicy gossip or go clubbing. If he were less entertaining I doubt she'd hang around him so much. Plus, he brings the added benefit of holding Charlie's dislike of her in check. That alone justifies keeping him around. She's like one of the characters on Gossip Girl. Not really a strong representative of female character but more interesting because of all the foolish and/or petty things she does. Then again, we're not exactly batting a thousand on good female characters on this show. I had high hopes for Judith but this whole Constantin/Fabian thing has lowered my opinion of her. Are any of the ones we don't see in these Ollian-centric clips any better? I understand what you're saying. My bullshit meter is pretty low and I have tendency to speak my mind even when I shouldn't. I just took a slight issue not with how you feel about the character of Olivia but in that I felt like everything was being based on assumptions and feelings that were contrary to what we'd been shown. I know not everyone likes her, and that is fine. It doesn't bother me as it's more interesting when people like different tings so there is a lot more to discuss than if everyone likes one thing. That's boring. Also, I don't see Olivia as sympathetic. She loves Olli and she's there to listen to him when he wants to get things off his chest but she's not a sympathetic person in general. Because she cares for Olli she tries to help him but I wouldn't call it sympathy but it's the closest she gets to that emotion. And I don't believe Charlie dislikes Olivia (can I get a long term viewer to correct me on this if I am wrong?  ). I think from what we've been shown, Charlie doesn't have the patience for her Olli does but dislike is not the impression I get from the show. I've always thought Charlie was practicing "tough love" on Olivia as a way to try to make her mature and responsible. Like mgh48, I think it'd be interesting to see her really fall in love just to see what the difference in her behavior would be.  Either that or TPTB need to bring her father to town to further explain the hints that she had a horrific childhood. |
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 2, 2008 0:29:31 GMT -5
Bchick, please edit this sentence: And that "extenuating circumstance" is your opinion as there might be folks who like her for than that reason just like there are various reasons why people dislike her. because it's not making much sense to me in English. Also (don't you love that 'also' has a different meaning in German? heh), I'm wondering why you feel the need to defend Olivia? Subjectively, she really doesn't need or want your defense. She's quite adequate unto herself---at least for now. We can chortle about the Golden Boy with feet of clay as we wish...or, Golden Girl, in this case, nicht wahr? Any writer worth his salt will soon make use of Olivia in the proper manner. Methinks ;D Geoff I forgot a word but that sentence should make more sense now.  I explained my defense of Olivia to psionycx just now but to clarify it's not defending Olivia's actions/behavior per se but more dissecting what we've been shown versus bias that is unsubstantiated in regards to a character's motivations & actions. I don't care if people don't like her but I do care that the reasons stated are things we've either been shown or have been told versus pure conjecture or things never relayed to the audience. Get where I am going? I spent too much time in debate club.  |
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 2, 2008 0:58:52 GMT -5
Yes. It drives me batty how people are still willing to socialize with Nina on AWZ. At least on VL the vast majority of people still dislike Olivia (or Tanja for that matter).
My take on Olivia:
- I do think that she has inklings of right and wrong. Not with the smaller things, but with most of the bigger things she usually had to invent a justification for herself. It's okay that I'm faking having a baby to Andi because I really love him and I'm worried about him and it's my darn right to do this because my love for him is real. Or with Charlie, I have the right to lash out because Charlie was trying to break up me and Andi.
-I actually don't find it as troublesome that Olli lets Christian and Olivia run wild on each other. I thought it was much more problematic that Olli defended what Olivia did to Andi. Andi was his friend and Olivia faked a baby to keep him and lied to him, trapping him in a relationship. IMO that's much worse than anything she has done to Christian so far and Olli was willing to overlook it even though Andi was a friend.
-As to whether Olivia would tell... Well, it has to be noted that while she was faking the pregnancy for Andi she was also blackmailing Charlie because Charlie had found out that there was no baby. Olivia had figured out that when Lars was in law school one of his girlfriends showed up pregnant at his family's doorstep and Charlie gave her money to pay for the abortion which she had without Lars consent or even knowledge. So when Andi accidentally found out about there being no baby and dumped Olivia, Olivia blamed Charlie and blurted out in front of everybody what Charlie had done. Incidentally THIS was the reason why Olli stayed in Düsseldorf because of the rift Olivia's actions had created between Lars and Charlie. (there is an unsubbed scene where Olli is babysitting Lars little girl while Lars, Christian and Coco are out assessing records; Charlie calls and beggs him to let her see her niece and Olli is put in a spot because Lars forbid Charlie to ever see Lars' baby. Charlie showed up unasked and badgered her way in, of course Olli couldn't say no to her ultimately even though he tried, and then Lars caught them, kicked her out and was angry at Olli disobeying his orders)
So, I could picture Olivia telling on Christian and Olli (I'm guessing she would probably argue to herself that they had it coming because they had no business hiding it in the first place/are just being silly). I would actually be really curious what would happen if push ever came to shove and Olli seriously begged her not to do something (like don't do this, it would *seriously* damage Christian's career). If that would stop her.
-As for criminal things she has done, Olli doesn't know it, but right at the moment she is buying cocaine on Tanja's behalf and feeding it to Sarah. Last week Sarah tried to get clean, being with her family that helped her through the withdrawal and Olivia showed up at the castle to wave a bag of cocaine in her face and "accidentally" leave it for Sarah to take when she was tempted (which Sarah ended up doing).
-How Olli feels about her, I think it was pretty obvious from the argument he had with Christian and Coco which led to the "spoiled" insult. I also think that in the case of Andi he honestly believed that she really had it bad for Andi. (btw Andi and Olivia had one of those squabbling, we insult each other, but we are also really attracted to each other kind of relationships)
-I think Olivia's position as a truthteller and deliverer of fun lines is why *viewers* tend to like her. And sometimes her way of being blunt sometimes is pretty useful. To give an example, Olivia was Sarah's roommate back when Sarah and Gregor fell in love. Gregor began having feelings for Sarah but thought he had to pretend to be just a good friend because she didn't love him back and was still vulnerable from the thing with Leonard. Meanwhile Sarah was beginning to have feelings for Gregor but thought he didn't want her and that even if he did he would just want her for another notch on his belt. So Olivia got frustrated and finally did one of those "really loud talking" things in the hallway to make sure Gregor overheard that Sarah was in love with him. Because of this Gregor finally made the first move, the two of them got together ending weeks and weeks of skulking around each other.
-I also think that soap opera viewer morality has a lot to do with two things (1) things that can't be undone; Meaning that things like murder or chopping somebody's hand off are pretty inexcusable, but running somebody over with a car when in soap world they'll be out of the hospital without a scratch is excusable (in fact a whole bunch of VL characters have run others over with their cars) (2) soap viewers get annoyed if an evil character gets away with things too long. Olivia's evil things usually get interrupted regularly with some semblance of payback (being humiliated and dumped when the truth came out about their being no baby, her boss Adrian poisoning her and putting her in the hospital, her currently having to sit through humiliation at the hands of Tanja. By comparison, people get much more frustrated with Tanja because despite all the evil things she had done she still has a working modelling business and people are forced to respect her or talk to her in public. Or they get mad at Leonard who many *viewers* feel has done bad things but still gets written as a hero rather than having to suffer through serious fallout)
-I'm not convinced that Olli gets nothing out of the relationship with Olivia. If she hangs out with him because he is entertaining, well so is she. And in the end she is family, it makes sense to me that emotionally close family often frustrates you, annoys you, makes you want to beat your head against the wall, but they are still your family and you still have affectionate feelings for them.
-It should also be noted that Olli isn't really all hearts and flowers either and hopefully remembers some of the things he was willing to do when he was really desperate which included transporting cocaine, stealing from his friends, stealing from his aunt's friends, trying to steal from his aunt and abusing the trust of his friends. Or irresponsible things like blow off an important exam because he would rather do fun stuff like read comics or roller blading with Andi. Or cheating to get back at his boyfriend.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 2, 2008 1:42:59 GMT -5
BTW, I have to mentioned how randomly amused I was that in the scene where Olli says he loves Christian so much and Christian overhears him the background music wails " It's only natural" ;D Maybe a secret hint for Christian to go natural with his training.  |
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Post by ivaniv on Jun 2, 2008 5:30:08 GMT -5
Sometimes the message in a song is subtle sometimes it is not. Like when Miriam after her ONS with Gregor turned on the radio in the cafe and the song playing was "Männer sind Schweine" ;D
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Post by psionycx on Jun 2, 2008 7:04:22 GMT -5
-As for criminal things she has done, Olli doesn't know it, but right at the moment she is buying cocaine on Tanja's behalf and feeding it to Sarah. Last week Sarah tried to get clean, being with her family that helped her through the withdrawal and Olivia showed up at the castle to wave a bag of cocaine in her face and "accidentally" leave it for Sarah to take when she was tempted (which Sarah ended up doing). And this one is particularly creepy given that Olivia actually knows Gregor and Sarah and that a large part of why the two of them are still on the outs is because Gregor is repulsed by Sarah's cocaine-driven behavior. That Olivia is involved in something this vile with someone she is actually acquainted to is disturbing in the extreme. It's not even as if she can claim the emotional distance of this involving complete strangers. It would be interesting to see a scene of Gregor bemoaning Sarah's addiction in front of Olivia. |
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 2, 2008 7:16:15 GMT -5
Actually I think Sarah mostly takes drugs because she and Leonard still want each other and she just feels too guilty to go for it. And Gregor already said a bunch of times that there is no way he would ever return to a woman who bullshitted him the way Sarah did. It's possible that they might be on more friendly terms with each other if she wasn't taking drugs, but I think it's unlikely. In fact, chances are that her drug addiction might cause Gregor to feel pity down the line than he would be if Sarah had just moved on to Leonard without any feelings of guilt or desire for self-punishment. That said, none of that has anything to do with Olivia's motivation. Ironically, these are the events that frame the scene that was mentioned, Olivia's nightmare about being old and ugly and still working at Schneiders while everybody laughs at her. Tanja ordered her to do this. Olivia said no, she wouldn't have anything to do with drugs. Tanja fired her, Olivia returned to Charlie, Olivia had her nightmare and went crawling back to Tanja promising she would do anything Tanja asked of her. And that's where she's been since then. (I actually wish Olli was paying more attention. I think both Olli and particularly Charlie disapprove of Olivia working for Tanja because they know Tanja is bad news, but Olli overall seems to be supportive of Olivia's attempt to get a modelling career) Don't you just love how between all the drama all these characters endure they still find time to meet for coffee and give each other relationship advice?  |
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 2, 2008 7:27:07 GMT -5
Don't you just love how between all the drama all these characters endure they still find time to meet for coffee and give each other relationship advice? Actually it's kinda like that with us too. In spite of living under the Bush administration, from time to time we crawl out of the shadows, sniff the spring air, shoot the breeze--as if a wink exchanged and a wry joke might make our lot tolerable. |
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neand48
Full Member
'It isn't about who has the power or who doesn't, but the power you share when you love each other.'
Posts: 1,154
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Post by neand48 on Jun 2, 2008 9:21:11 GMT -5
Actually it's kinda like that with us too. In spite of living under the Bush administration, from time to time we crawl out of the shadows, sniff the spring air, shoot the breeze--as if a wink exchanged and a wry joke might make our lot tolerable. But rejoice my friend... the end to your nightmare is drawing near, or is it? Re: Olivia I loved the b*tch in you. But a cheap ambition-driven cocaine entremetteuse? That's where I draw the line (no pun intended). Oh what a tangled web you are weaving... |
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 2, 2008 11:34:17 GMT -5
But rejoice my friend... the end to your nightmare is drawing near, or is it? Re: Olivia I loved the b*tch in you. But a cheap ambition-driven cocaine entremetteuse? That's where I draw the line (no pun intended). Oh what a tangled web you are weaving... Re the end of the nightmare. I'll believe it when I sense it. Since the utter capture of our federal government by corporate interests--under Reagan--there's seldom been government except for and by them. It's hard to see the means whereby we'll recover anything like real democracy, to a great extent because: we've become a consumer culture, so only an always diminishing minority of us really take such things seriously any more. Weh ist uns! (I know: OT--I guess I need to inaugurate the "Dismal Chat" thread . . . ) Re Olivia: c'est un monstre, simplement dit. Le personnage sert, du point de vue 'mecanique', de decouvrir des secrets, et c, mais autrement--en verite, il m'est completement impossible de comprendre: et l'envie de la justifier . . . et l'amitie que garde toujours Olli pour elle--les autres la detestent! |
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 2, 2008 11:51:58 GMT -5
Re: Olivia I loved the b*tch in you. But a cheap ambition-driven cocaine entremetteuse? That's where I draw the line (no pun intended). Oh what a tangled web you are weaving... It's a good thing I know French. Yea, she's always going to be her own worst enemy so I find it silly to hate on her, especially as she's not even the most vile person in town and she usually suffers from her own machinations. Total pyrrhic victory every single time. Whatever, though. The current stuff will blow up in her face eventually as things seem to do. But then it's always absolutes in morality, eh, unless you like the character. I am glad Lola was able to fill in some of the blanks with not only Olivia's history but current things going on. Oh, and it sounds like Leonhard is VL's version of Ryan Lavery from All My Children, which is not good. Not good at all.  Now I must go back to dishing on the MTV Awards fashion and Sex & The City! |
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mgh48
Junior Member
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Post by mgh48 on Jun 2, 2008 12:57:03 GMT -5
"I forgot a word but that sentence should make more sense now. I explained my defense of Olivia to psionycx just now but to clarify it's not defending Olivia's actions/behavior per se but more dissecting what we've been shown versus bias that is unsubstantiated in regards to a character's motivations & actions. I don't care if people don't like her but I do care that the reasons stated are things we've either been shown or have been told versus pure conjecture or things never relayed to the audience. Get where I am going? I spent too much time in debate club. " Ahh, gotcha. All is clear now. Thankee Geoff |
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neand48
Full Member
'It isn't about who has the power or who doesn't, but the power you share when you love each other.'
Posts: 1,154
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Post by neand48 on Jun 2, 2008 14:22:51 GMT -5
Could you tell me what it means? Is she really his friend? Or doesn't it have more to do with her being his cousin? Does Olivia have any friends? More importantly: did she ever have any real friends? I pity the girl, in a soap-opera-ish kind of way. |
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elrohir525
New Member
Internationally renowned giver of beavers!
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Post by elrohir525 on Jun 2, 2008 16:46:48 GMT -5
IvanIV said this about Christian turning away from Olli's kiss near the end of the episode: I think that sounds like the best explanation for that, but Christian leaving Olli in the dust in today's (Jun. 2 nd) episode, and then laughing about it to Judith, seems much less innocent to me! If my athletic bf "persuaded" me to go running with him, saying basically "no you can't cycle along, you have to run, too," and then just left me behind because I couldn't keep up, we'd be having a reeeaaally serious relationship talk when I finally caught up with him!  Bad Christian!!!
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lala
New Member
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Post by lala on Jun 2, 2008 17:18:51 GMT -5
ho ho ho! is that what happened?
Not really being so good at german, I pretty much just heard Olli and figured that's what he was laughing about.. lol.
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). I think from what we've been shown, Charlie doesn't have the patience for her Olli does but dislike is not the impression I get from the show. I've always thought Charlie was practicing "tough love" on Olivia as a way to try to make her mature and responsible. 
Either that or TPTB need to bring her father to town to further explain the hints that she had a horrific childhood. 
