mgh48
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Post by mgh48 on May 22, 2008 9:24:23 GMT -5
Hey, all! I've recently met someone from Germany. He's moved here to the States by preference for various reasons. Anyway, of course, once we started talking, I had to mention my sudden, strange, bizarre obsession with VL and O&C. This gave him pause. I suppose, in consideration for my feelings, he didn't immediately speak his mind---which is unusual as he's quite an outspoken person. However, this much he did tell me: The acting on this show is terrible. They do not speak like German people speak in these situations. There is no real emotion. Well, of course, I was quite shocked. I explained to him that American soap actors tend to be cardboard hacks with less acting skill than my drama-queen cat heh heh. He never watches soaps of any sort so couldn't comment. Before VL, I never watched a single soap opera---with the exception of Dark Shadows back in the day. Sooo, my question then: How, really, is the acting on this show? Would you say it's er mediocre, above average? Typical? I realize the dialog can be quite rapid-fire---it's really testing my German skills (grateful nod to the Translation Team!)---but I'm detecting adequate emotion and drama. He says: it's hammed-up and German people do not speak this way in these kinds of situations. thanks for your opinions in advance Geoff
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Post by lolaruns on May 22, 2008 9:35:37 GMT -5
It's hard to judge. I don't think that it can be compared to real people just like ATWT can't be compared to let's say Grey's Anatomy. (and let's face it, how often do Luke and Noah look or talk like normal people their age? Seriously, who talks like that)
I have always been very indifferent to bad soap acting. So a soap having bad acting doesn't bother me.
That said, VL definitely has its share of very cringeworthy dialog. But again more a question of amusement for me (of course, I'm Austrian, so when in doubt I can always laugh at the Germans).
It's worth keeping in mind that just because VL doesn't look like it was shot in somebody's basement (sorry ATWT) it's still very much a soap.
For lack of a better way to put it, I think there are different types of acting that can be appropriate in different situation. What can look great on stage might look ridiculous in a movie. What works perfectly on a soap might never fly in primetime. I think they do a good job playing likable soap opera characters. Which to me really is the entire point.
But it is very possible (like I have speculated before) that just seeing the subtitled version might totally be a blessing in disguise for some of you, particularly if you usually are the kind who is sensitive to good/bad acting.
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mgh48
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Post by mgh48 on May 22, 2008 9:39:37 GMT -5
Yeah, that's one thing that captured my attention: the sets add to the ambience and add authenticity. Regardless of my friend's rather disdainful view, I'm still enthralled with this show.
He's decided to merely tolerate my obsession heh heh.
Geoff
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Post by lolaruns on May 22, 2008 9:43:17 GMT -5
I haven't really seen enough of VL, particularly not the "classic" VL to really be able to judge, but to me it's an interesting show because it's very different from the American soaps I'm used to watching. For starters it's rather a lot less overemotional at times. I kinda miss the weekly " character stands up and hold a 5 minute speech explaining to a second character that they belong together" (I think the closest to this was parts of the Sarah/Leonard story) or "characters a and b heartily discuss the happenings between characters c and d and emphatically offer their explanation". Basically the thing that makes 90% of the Bold and the Beautiful. ;D Heck, I'm still traumatized that the characters on VL seem to actually have jobs
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Post by GayTime on May 22, 2008 9:56:16 GMT -5
Hey, all! I've recently met someone from Germany. He's moved here to the States by preference for various reasons. Anyway, of course, once we started talking, I had to mention my sudden, strange, bizarre obsession with VL and O&C. This gave him pause. I suppose, in consideration for my feelings, he didn't immediately speak his mind---which is unusual as he's quite an outspoken person. However, this much he did tell me: The acting on this show is terrible. They do not speak like German people speak in these situations. There is no real emotion. Well, of course, I was quite shocked. I explained to him that American soap actors tend to be cardboard hacks with less acting skill than my drama-queen cat heh heh. He never watches soaps of any sort so couldn't comment. Before VL, I never watched a single soap opera---with the exception of Dark Shadows back in the day. Sooo, my question then: How, really, is the acting on this show? Would you say it's er mediocre, above average? Typical? I realize the dialog can be quite rapid-fire---it's really testing my German skills (grateful nod to the Translation Team!)---but I'm detecting adequate emotion and drama. He says: it's hammed-up and German people do not speak this way in these kinds of situations. thanks for your opinions in advance Geoff This, to me, seems like all you really need for any argument against it: He never watches soaps of any sort so couldn't comment. Indeed, a lot of Germans would probably argue that the acting on ANY soap opera is pretty bad and the dialogue usually wooden. In Germany, soaps are generally considered on par with reality TV and talk show as the lowest form of television entertainment. Actually, when Verbotene Liebe premiered back in 95, a lot of people were wondering if a public broadcaster should be spending license fee money on something like that. The reality though is that for many people it's quite the guilty pleasure to come home and follow the shenanigans of those characters. Also, I would argue that most actors on any soap opera shouldn't bother preparing their Oscar acceptance speech just yet, but then - I've always been quite hostile to dismissing the acting. Soaps are produced under an enormous time constraint - there's just not the same level of '2nd, 3rd... 50th take' and preparation are there is on a 23- 24 episodes per season show. So I actually think that those actors are doing one of the hardest jobs in the industry and anyone criticizing should be able to prove they could do it better ;-)! But also remember: We love Verbotene Liebe because it strikes a chord with Ollian - would you HONESTLY be watching it for any of the other storylines? I remember that when THE GAYS OF DAYTIME was still the DeRo- blog (good times) and Ollian made their first appearance, me and those few who visited the blog back then actually made FUN of Verbotene Liebe and how awful it all was compared to AWZ. Truth be told - at least the way I see it - there's been a moment I can not quite put down where it's like someone pulled a switch. The chemistry between Jo and Thore is just unbelievable, the writing is comparatively good for a soap and the storyline so far very compelling. Of course nobody talks like these actors in real life- but there's two reasons for that: A) A traditional 'problem' of German TV. Since Germany has so many dialects, it's always been an unspoken rule that television (especially so public TV) would make an aim for 'High German'. The necessity of that is that someone living in Hamburg would actually have a hard time following dialogue that was all in Bavarian. Dialects are usually only used for comic relief or to underscore the regional provenance of the character. This has the tendency to create what might be perceived as 'wooden' or 'unrealistic' dialogue (it's considerably worse when a foreign movie is dubbed into German, an experience that except for a few rare exceptions is truly and utterly cringe- worthy). B) It's all about drama - and that generally creates dialogue that is a little out of touch with reality. Plus, since there's no other way we can get into the character's heads and find out what they are THINKING, they'll sometimes have to speak out things noone in their right mind usually would. But that's not just a problem of soaps, IMHO. As for your perception of it- isn't part of the fascination just maybe that it's in a foreign language? And one, at least that's my experience, that many Americans seem to find quite sexy for reasons I have yet to fully understand? To make my point, let me quote from a movie review that appeared in the April 8 issue of THE ADVOCATE: "In a video store several years ago I watched with amusement as a group of customers tried to figure out which movie was being shown on the shop's big screen TV. The film - dubbed in French with English subtitles - was the poignant, sepia- toned story of a single mother raising her mixed- race child. The customers seemed absorbed by it, willing to cut the perfunctory subtitles (THIS IS JUST WITH REGARDS TO THIS PARTICULAR STORY, NANNA'S SUBTITLES ARE ABSOLUTELY IMPECCABLE - GayTime) some slack on account of the film's bewitching foreignness. Then Mariah Carey appeared on-screen and everyone realized they'd been watching a dubbed version of GLITTER."
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momnoc
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"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." Dr. Seuss
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Post by momnoc on May 22, 2008 10:02:48 GMT -5
I think the acting in VL is much better than what I've seen in American soaps. Keep in mind though, I only see the Ollian centric portions and they are wonderfully subbed by Nanna. ;D So unless Nanna is subbing better lines than VL writes or Ollian really is a couple, and therefore, not acting, VL is soooooo much better than any daytime soap I've seen here! Maybe it's a cultural thing too. Maybe VL is better to us because we only have our own experience to compare it to. Ask your friend to sit through a few hours of ATWT and then revisit the topic.
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Post by lolaruns on May 22, 2008 10:23:27 GMT -5
I pity the fool who has never become addicted to at least one soap storyline. Soaps... they are kinda like chocolate or fast food. Of course they bad for you. But they can be very addictive and fun. I still fondly coming home from school, rolling my eyes at those stupid cheesy soap operas ... and then secretly wanting to know whether Lauren would finally uncover that the arch nemesis Sheila was alive and married to Lauren's close friend Eric.
For me soaps always go up and down. I admire people who really watch the same soap for 20 plus years. I tend to like one soap storyline every once in a while, really love it and then eventually drop out of watching the show regularly once the story ends and nothing similarly addictive follows.
Still, I say at best soap operas just hit a note with us. Something that just makes us overlook everything else. Kinda like falling in love and suddenly you no longer caring about the flaws the person you love has.
She doesn't change anything. Sometimes her subtitles don't capture some of the really weird turns of phrases that VL uses (characters frequently say that they are "through the wind" and Olli particularly says "full jug" a lot ;D). Maybe reading and therefore getting the *sense* of what characters are saying is more enchanting and actually having the characters say it directly.
Like the subtitled says "I love you" and you think, awww, that's so sweet, A told B he loved him rather than your mind going "wait, would a person in A's position really say I love you in this situation"?
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mgh48
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Post by mgh48 on May 22, 2008 10:58:22 GMT -5
I agree that part of the allure is that it's German. I've been in love with this language since I was very young. Part of my family is from Germany (Hof) and my father and uncle could speak it fluently, so naturally, I had to learn as well. Yes, I'm putting it down to what he said as well: don't watch soaps. Before VL, I'd scoff at soaps routinely---many at work watch ATWT everyday to my amused disdain. How quickly that would change were VL to suddenly show up! heh heh heh I can't imagine what he'd say if I asked him to watch ATWT. hmmm. I just might ask him---we've a date tomorrow. This might be extremely funny Anyway, I feel there is a difference in acting skill between typical American soap actors and those I've seen in VL. I'm a fair judge of such things and it seems to me VL actors are 'better'. As for the subbing, from what I hear verses what I read, there is only a slight difference at times, a turn of phrasing that's up to the interpreter/translator, IMO. When the dialog slows down, I can translate it myself and what I read is a great translation. Some phrases stray into idiom and those are ALWAYS harder to 'get right'. Literal translations usually would make absolutely no sense. In my German studies, I always insisted on translating exactly word for word then I tried to find the closest colloquial/idiomatic expression that would convey a sensible equivalent. Sometimes, it's just impossible, sometimes it easy. Of course, I'm also quite rusty---it's been years since I've had to challenge my abilities so thoroughly heh. Here's an example of preference in translation, at least for me: When Christian and Miriam return from the 'club scene' after the argument with Olliver, Gregor says something like: "..., dass war eine kurze Abend..." Nanna chooses: that was a brief date Literally, though: that was a short evening But that doesn't make much sense in English translated literally. She chose just right, IMO She might've said, 'that was a quick date' but either or helped me to see how to say something like that in German without over-analyzing all the possible words---which is one of my problems in speaking. One of the reasons I love the Translation Team so much . Anyway, thanks for this discussion. I've decided to tolerate my friend's snobby attitude towards soaps heh heh Geoff
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Post by lolaruns on May 22, 2008 11:04:11 GMT -5
Well you can always fudge the facts and say that at least it still beats the heck out of the acting in those language videos they show you when you study a foreign language It's basically "Study German with cute guys!". BTW, it seems to be a rather universal phenomenon that soap operas are pretty good for foreign languages. For example my French is dreadful, but I can still approximately follow B&B in French. Yet trying to follow the French version of CSI gives me a headache. So B&B is definitely much better for that "Yay! I understood something!" factor. Probably because the dialog on soaps can be pretty basic ("I love you, I don't love you, you betrayed me, I'm so unhappy") and often a bit repetitive (also because characters narrate the essential plot points to other characters). But maybe if he is so worried for your impression of Germany you can promise that maybe next time you can try to watch Alarm für Cobra 11 on rtl-now Or the deepy introspective Soko Kitzbühl ;D
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Simone
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Post by Simone on May 22, 2008 11:15:27 GMT -5
From what I've seen the acting on VL is pretty bad even for a soap. Before Ollian got together and got all theis attention, I and others in the blog comment section would laugh about how bad Jo and Thore's acting was, but that they were pretty boys so it was worth sticking with the storyline. I miss those days when you could be frank and laugh about the limited acting, but still enjoy Ollian.
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mgh48
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Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on May 22, 2008 11:16:24 GMT -5
Well you can always fudge the facts and say that at least it still beats the heck out of the acting in those language videos they show you when you study a foreign language It's basically "Study German with cute guys!". BTW, it seems to be a rather universal phenomenon that soap operas are pretty good for foreign languages. For example my French is dreadful, but I can still approximately follow B&B in French. Yet trying to follow the French version of CSI gives me a headache. So B&B is definitely much better for that "Yay! I understood something!" factor. Probably because the dialog on soaps can be pretty basic ("I love you, I don't love you, you betrayed me, I'm so unhappy") and often a bit repetitive (also because characters narrate the essential plot points to other characters). But maybe if he is so worried for your impression of Germany you can promise that maybe next time you can try to watch Alarm für Cobra 11 on rtl-now Or the deepy introspective Soko Kitzbühl ;D hmmmm. *scribbles down the names* Let's see how he reacts to this Geoff
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Post by lolaruns on May 22, 2008 11:28:07 GMT -5
I don't know. I occasionally watch the entire episodes of VL and I rather like it. Of course there is a wide mixture from the bad (Lisa, Fabian to the pretty good or the AWESOMEly cheesy (Tanja)). It's definitely more stilted than folksy but I still like it (for example Gregor, Sarah, Coco, Adrian, Judith, Charlie etc...).
Of course, I tend to think that mood and cast chemistry is a lot more essential on a soap. For example, I can't tell if Lindenstrasse or Marienhof have better or worse acting than VL, but they just annoy me.
Soaps are a packaged product where everything, the actors, the sets, the music is sort of picked to make a whole. And either it's the type of whole that appeals to one or it isn't.
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Post by Bonobochick on May 22, 2008 11:30:32 GMT -5
I was one of the folks who found the acting on VL to be somewhat wooden when I first started watching the Ollian clips. I think it's come along much better since then. I can't put my finger on it but sometime in March it seemed to click and either the actors stepped it up or something changed, but I find the acting much better now than 6 months ago. However, outside the Ollian storyline there is some bad acting (LISA!) on this show. And you couldn't pay me to sit through Sebastian/Lydia. Same with AWZ. I find the "actress" who plays Nina to be absolutely dreadful. The new Nadja is not a bad actress but completely wrong for the part. There's another person on here -he can out himself if he wants - who thinks the actor who plays Ben is dreadful. But along with a few bad actors or miscast actors, there are some very good actors on the show. I think on soaps that you are always going to find a mix good acting and some bad acting on any show ( Passions is a great example of deplorable actors mixed in with some genuinely talented actors in which you're either cringing or enjoying it depending on the actors on the screen at the moment. Hollyoaks is another example though yay for dead Beth!). It just all depends on what you enjoy and what you're willing to put up with. Then again, sometimes it's the writing bringing a decent actor down to bad...
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momnoc
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"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." Dr. Seuss
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Post by momnoc on May 22, 2008 11:46:16 GMT -5
Well you can always fudge the facts and say that at least it still beats the heck out of the acting in those language videos they show you when you study a foreign language It's basically "Study German with cute guys!". VIDEOS!!!! There are videos VL inspired me to learn german so I checked out CD's from the library. VIDEOS with cute guys.....much more inspired Thanks Lola
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Post by lolaruns on May 22, 2008 11:58:22 GMT -5
Word on Nina. Actually, from what I have seen, I also really disliked Julian. Looked wooden AND uncomfortable and wasn't even cute. Jenny and Timm are two more who don't really do anything for me from an acting POV.
And as with many soaps they have their share of neither here nor there actors (Juli?).
On soaps, because they have such a fast rotation it depends so much on who is currently on the forefront or what the current cast composition is. I thought VL was much more interesting at the beginning of they year when the Gregor/Sarah/Leonard/Jana storyline was still forefront and Tanja was just coming back. Now that the new Brandners (including Lydia and Fabian) are eating up the show it's a lot less interesting.
Speaking of acting, I actually think that Constantin is actually, well, kinda bad. It doesn't really matter because he still is so adorable. But the way he talks? LOL. Just weird. But that 's the thing really, as long as he has chemistry with Judith, does it really matter? No to mention that I have always though that with the vast majority of successful soap couples you had one who led and one who followed, one person who could act and the other gained from the interaction.
Don't you have those type of things as well? In Englihs class they alsway had these videos with short unfunny sketches where people tried to reenact normal real life situation (like meeting a friend at a restaurant).
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Post by nahuela on May 22, 2008 12:05:03 GMT -5
Actually I always thought that the acting in soap operas was really bad. I still think it is. But I´m addicted to them, so I don´t stop watching because it´s a nice thing to do after work. From my point of view there are some better and some worse soap operas in Germany. I used to watch GZSZ a lot when I was younger. I followed it for years. Same with Unter Uns. Then there were times when I watched VL (around 2000 I guess) but stopped after a few years because I didnt like it anymore. I re-started VL this year, not because of Olli&Christian but it airs before Marienhof which I started to watch last year. Never watched AWZ because after following a few episodes at the beginning I really thought it sucks. In my opinion they all have got some good and some bad actors. Like you can find everywhere. At the moment I follow just VL and Marienhof and in comparison VL is better.
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Post by amber80 on May 22, 2008 13:22:33 GMT -5
As for your perception of it- isn't part of the fascination just maybe that it's in a foreign language? And one, at least that's my experience, that many Americans seem to find quite sexy for reasons I have yet to fully understand? To make my point, let me quote from a movie review that appeared in the April 8 issue of THE ADVOCATE: "In a video store several years ago I watched with amusement as a group of customers tried to figure out which movie was being shown on the shop's big screen TV. The film - dubbed in French with English subtitles - was the poignant, sepia- toned story of a single mother raising her mixed- race child. The customers seemed absorbed by it, willing to cut the perfunctory subtitles (THIS IS JUST WITH REGARDS TO THIS PARTICULAR STORY, NANNA'S SUBTITLES ARE ABSOLUTELY IMPECCABLE - GayTime) some slack on account of the film's bewitching foreignness. Then Mariah Carey appeared on-screen and everyone realized they'd been watching a dubbed version of GLITTER." Hihi, that quote from the Advocate was funny... And I think there's some truth in what you said above; I'm still wondering WHY on earth I'm watching a german soap every day and at the same time loath dutch soaps. (While they're probably more or less of the same standard as VL. Although the acting on GTST and ONM is worse I guess. ) I really do think the different language makes it more bearable because if the script is bad half of the time I don't even notice since I'm too busy trying to understand what they're saying at all. ;D Speaking of acting, I actually think that Constantin is actually, well, kinda bad. It doesn't really matter because he still is so adorable. But the way he talks? LOL. Just weird. But that 's the thing really, as long as he has chemistry with Judith, does it really matter? I actually have to agree with you on that. But hey, he's pretty and the scenes with Judith are sweet and not bad at all, so he can stay... ;D
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lala
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Post by lala on May 22, 2008 13:33:51 GMT -5
She doesn't change anything. Sometimes her subtitles don't capture some of the really weird turns of phrases that VL uses (characters frequently say that they are "through the wind" and Olli particularly says "full jug" a lot ;D). ? Kinda a weird moment to de-lurk, but I am just wondering wth "Full Jug" means--- like what is it in german and what would be the English equivalent? Thanks/
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Post by lolaruns on May 22, 2008 13:41:04 GMT -5
"Full jug"? In Germn it's volle Kanne and it means like, totally, all the way. That kind of thing. In the 4.4 episode Olli says that he has fallen full jug in love with Christian. ;D
Speaking of acting. I think it's kinda interesting that after the first Ollian sex aired most people thought that Christian's solo scene in the bathroom where he quietly freaks out was over the top. Like, hey, guy, you just had sex, it's not the end of the world.
But now in retrospect it seems to be among the favorite scenes of a lot of people.
I think it's because the scene made more sense in retrospect. Because Christian is such an all or nothing guy, it wasn't just "OMG I *might* be attracted to guy/might like having sex with a guy", for him it's immediately about falling in love so in that sense the dramatic reaction made more sense.
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lala
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Post by lala on May 22, 2008 14:18:58 GMT -5
Hahah... thanks for the answer... yeah.. i would say that "I've fallen head over heels in love with you" (which Nanna used), sounds to me, an American speaker, much better than "I've fallen in love with you, full jug!"... but i guess head over heels would sound odd to a non-native speaker... it's all relative. That being said, I think the fact that Nanna is SUCH a good translator and that it is translated into really good American English, maybe does up the quality, because American soaps even don't have such good American, you know?
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Post by tihkon2 on May 22, 2008 16:44:25 GMT -5
Simone said:
I don't think anyone says or acts like you can't have that opinion. I also don't think that people aren't being frank when they say that they don't think the acting is bad at all.
It's a difference of opinion. Some people think they're bad actors. And some think they are doing fine.
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Post by sheepiefarm on May 22, 2008 17:21:18 GMT -5
Speaking of acting. I think it's kinda interesting that after the first Ollian sex aired most people thought that Christian's solo scene in the bathroom where he quietly freaks out was over the top. Like, hey, guy, you just had sex, it's not the end of the world. But now in retrospect it seems to be among the favorite scenes of a lot of people. For me - that scene completely blew me out of the water - I just knew exactly where he was at that moment. I think probably a lot of people who watched it initially were drawn to it or found it on youtube because primarily it depicted love scenes between two guys - something we're fairly deprived of in the mass tv arena. (Remember - the first clips put up primarily revolved around kissing scenes) Likewise that's how I stumbled on to it - although - immediately knew I wanted to follow "the story" therefore set about looking for subtitled versions of it. The acting and scriptwriting at times is so subtle that, unless you watch the whole story it can sometimes come across as quite meaningless. Want to say more on this subject but have currently lost my train of thought at the mo.....will come back later to this.
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Post by nanna on May 22, 2008 17:36:58 GMT -5
Thank you for all your kind words regarding the subtitling but it's a team effort. Without tihkon's help the subs would be much worse.
VL uses "youth-speak" a lot which some people think is bad German. As the writers use the expressions they heard when they were young, it's sometimes a bit dated. German colloquial expressions change all the time and tend to be quite different in different social circles and regions of Germany.
But they really try to give the whole show an authentic feel: the way the sets are decorated, the music, the clothes …
To my mind the acting's not bad. Thore used to be quite awful really, but he has improved enormously in the last months. I don't know why, maybe it's the better chemistry he has with Jo (I heard on a board that he didn't get along very well with Mariangela) or he took some acting lessons. But now his facial expressions are so great to watch and the interaction between him and Jo, all the little gestures that I'm sure weren't in the script, that's good acting to my mind.
All my friends think I've gone completely mad subtitling a soap. You can't admit that you actually watch something like that. So everybody likes to make snide remarks about them and still a lot of people watch them. It's a guilty pleasure.
I absolutely agree with GayTime when it comes to the quality of the dubbing of US shows, btw. Now that's really awful.
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Post by amber80 on May 22, 2008 18:04:48 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with GayTime when it comes to the quality of the dubbing of US shows, btw. Now that's really awful. I never understood the whole dubbing thing anyway. I mean: imo it's ok to dub an animated movie because it doesn't make a difference how the character sounds. But it's beyond weird to see a movie/tv show when you know how the real actor sounds, but still you hear someone else talking (in another language). Why don't they subtitle? It's not like it's easier of cheaper imo... (Plus: it's soooooo much better for your English (or whatever language) when you hear it all the time... So it's not only about esthetic value, but also educational. ;D)
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Post by sheepiefarm on May 22, 2008 18:16:43 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with GayTime when it comes to the quality of the dubbing of US shows, btw. Now that's really awful. I never understood the whole dubbing thing anyway. I mean: imo it's ok to dub an animated movie because it doesn't make a difference how the character sounds. But it's beyond weird to see a movie/tv show when you know how the real actor sounds, but still you hear someone else talking (in another language). Why don't they subtitle? It's not like it's easier of cheaper imo... (Plus: it's soooooo much better for your English (or whatever language) when you hear it all the time... So it's not only about esthetic value, but also educational. ;D) Absolutely agree Amber - I can quite happily watch a subtitled film - but one with bad dubbing is waaaay too distracting.
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