seven14
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James Marsters-My Spike!
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Post by seven14 on Oct 5, 2008 18:21:19 GMT -5
I really think that Jo has had a big influence over Thore here. In real life I think Jo's a pretty easy going guy, and he and Thore have hit it off very well. That would have to make a huge difference in how Thore handled the challenge. So as much as I admire Thore for responding so well, I think Jo gets a lot of credit too. aussie54 I so agree with your sentiments..a few years ago, I was watching a Biography special on the great actor Rod Steiger and he was speaking of his role during the pivotal Taxi-cab scene, as Charley to Marlon Brando's character Terry, in "On the Waterfront." I wish, so much that I could find and isolate that particular clip, but I did find this on Youtube www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBv8a5ZhvxY ....if anyone is so inclined..the part I am referencing begins approx at min 6:28 and carries until min 8:53. Now, I am speaking of this because even if Thore's acting in the hospital scene, in our minds is deserving of an Emmy (actually, I would nominate him for his speech in the gym---excellent writing and delivery...only marred in my mind by the revolving camera), I truly think Jo deserves one as well....for Yes, the hospital scene and his falling out scene in Schneiders... (of course neither can receive an award that does not exist in Germany, but their high-level performances is really what we are noting) You see back to Rod Steiger and Marlon Brando..Marlon left right when Rod was to deliver his pivotal lines..and he was left to bring up all the emotion and hurt and drama that this scene required while speaking to an extra...of course we don't see that and would never have known if he hadn't spoken about it... but...if Jo decided...heck, my character is just laying here in this hospital bed, you don't really need me for these scenes...I'm leaving....would Thore have been able to rise to the level of emotion needed without Jo there? I am sure he could have done an admirable job....but, honestly IMO, he has so grown as an actor since Jo's return as Olli..., not that he didn't have the talent, but maybe the storylines, and actors he has had to feed off were not as giving and being a young actor, he didn't know how to rise higher? Because of Jo and Thore's friendship on and off screen (which they have both spoken of in interviews) and chemistry (which Jo has said they have the same sense of humor and get on well)......this has allowed alot of trust to develop between them as actors...and it takes alot to bare your soul as Thore's Christian does when he cries as his lover is suffering and in a coma (I know I am preaching to the choir on this as most all of us note what a strong performance he gave)...his level of emotion and drama were increased and I would like to think it's because of the excellent scenes they have acted from about March 2008 to the present, as Oliver and Christian, as well as Jo's physical presence in the hospital bed. You often hear of actors praising another actor by saying he/she is a very "giving" actor (or maybe that's just me as I am a tv geek), I definitely think this refers to one actor respecting another...knowing that the close-up is not going to be on them, but they can do all in their power to make the scene easier for their colleague. So, goodness gracious, before I end up writing a Novel, Jo and Thore both deserve an "Emmy!" [/color] For anyone who watched ericholmgren's video above, here is the complete scene thanks to TripleH1983 www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeVq1e6JKlw Brando won the Oscar...I believe because he had Steiger to work off from...and Steiger should have won the Best Supporting Actor award for which he was nominated, because despite the cinematic cuts, we can't tell Brando wasn't there for him to feed off as well.
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sozment
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Forget regret or life is yours to miss
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Post by sozment on Oct 5, 2008 18:42:58 GMT -5
I think one of the true testiments of a great actor is when you know what he is feeling when he is not saying a word.
Point in case (for me). The scene in No Limits. Christian is telling Olli how Olli's being there for him has given him the strength, the courage, the pride. The way Jo just "looks" at him...tells you everything he is thinking and feeling. Pure love radiated from his eyes. No words necessary. THAT is a truly gifted actor.
And yes, Thore was beautiful and emmy deserving in that hospital room. And I've seen Thore deliver those same type scenes that I am referencing above. Remember the scene where he runs into Olli's arms telling him that he will stop everything immediately if Olli is unhappy.. Olli stops him with a kiss. The look on Thore's face..again same thing... no words necessary. We know exactly what we need to know by just watching his face.
They are BOTH truly talented actors who deserve to be showcased in many ways..and they will. I completely believe that.
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Post by aussie54 on Oct 5, 2008 19:29:03 GMT -5
Well said, Shirley and Seven 14.
One of my favourite scenes (and there are SO many) is when Christian and Olli are in the boxing ring, and they kiss after Christian's won the bout. I can imagine how difficult that would've been to shoot. Not only in front of all the camera and lighting crew, but in front of all those people too. And the way the camera revolves shows there are a lot of people there.
The grins on Christian and Olli's faces in that scene are lovely. I think that shows how supportive they are with each other (and the story-line) now.
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Post by husky14620 on Oct 9, 2008 1:28:15 GMT -5
IMHO I think that the chemistry between Thore and Jo is really coming through in their perfomances... especially for Christian. When I look back at older videos, I notice that he has relaxed more and seems more comfortable with his character, and thus comes off as a better actor. Plus he smiles more which does not hurt Do you think that part of that is also the change in the character as well? The older episodes he is supposed to be fighting his attraction to Olli, internally conflicted, torn over his feelings for both Coco and Olli, etc. By now, the character would be more comfortable with himself.
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Post by lolaruns on May 31, 2011 2:04:28 GMT -5
Unearthing this thread since there was some talk about acting from the other actors on the show:
1.) I think that there will most likely be a big difference in perception between German language viewers and non German language viewers. Namely that German language viewers will probably give more credit to actors who have really good voices while non German language viewers have rely on faces and are hence going to reward actors with really expressive faces.
2.) If I had to rank the current actors of VL it would probably be something like this: Soap Good: (which can still be pretty mediocre in an overall kind of way) Ansgar, Tanja Decent bordering on good on one side and mediocre on the other side: Dana, Tristan, Charlie, Arno, Nico, Arno (bordering on good) Mediocre: Elisabeth, Andi, Helena, Sebastian Bad: Marlene (but with room for improvement), Rebecca, Phil Offensively bad: Jessica, Theresa, Hagen
I would put Mr. Wolf as a good mediocre so far and Mrs. Wolf as somewhere between mediocre and decent. Kim particularly seems to vacilliate a lot, makes it hard to judge, kinda like jumping crazy between bad and almost decent, she's really melodramatic and grating but it kinda works for her being a melodramatic and grating teenager. Phil and Rebecca both used to be offensively bad but have mellowed out so it's not as aggressively bad as before. It's a close call though, Phil still has a really terrible screen presence and Jasmin still has the tendency to overdo stuff and very badly. Storyline also makes a difference, a lot of the decent actors slide really fast into mediocre when the storyline sucks (might affect both Tristan and Dana soon, even when you know they can do better). Sebastian is kinda like Kim to me he can do good, he can do rather poor. I think Marlene is close to sliding into a good mediocre because the storyline is now more to her style, though I think she is more pleasant screen presence rather than necessarily the acting.
I could also see nuHagen doing better eventually. Maybe with a different story. Old Hagen had better facial experssions (though he tended towards the duhhhhhhhr look) but he was a really bad offender in the bad voice department.
I would have put Judith as good by the way and Olivia either decent or good, Luise and Maria is both good and Eduard as good or decent. Gregor I actually would have put as a very pleasant mediocre. He had an insanely likable screen presence and could hold his own very well.
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Post by mariesun on May 31, 2011 2:41:03 GMT -5
very interesting post Lolaruns.I totally agree with you ... I like the actress , who plays Dana - I think if she got a better story or maybe better acting-partner , she would be even better . and can I ask for your opinion on the acting of Jo and Thore ? ...I would really appreciate your honest opinion thanks
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bel7003
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Post by bel7003 on May 31, 2011 2:56:15 GMT -5
What about Thore and Jo? I love them and I think they are pretty good, but, as you said, non-German speakers have a different perception of acting and these guys are great with their facial expressions and body language in general. They are not flawless and sometimes things aren't perfect, but I really like their work. Besides, I think soap actors, in general, are very underestimated. I can judge from Portuguese telenovela actors. People don't always credit them for their work, which is usually done under very special conditions: long working hours, tons of pages to memorize, not many rehersals, not too much time to shoot the scenes... Actors who manage to do this and still give a decent/good/very good performance should be valued. What about you? What do you think about Thore and Jo as actors?
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Post by mandalai on May 31, 2011 8:06:16 GMT -5
I really appreciate the post by lolaruns and I completly agree. Going back to Jo and thore, I love them both but as a non german viewer I can appreciate much more their ability to express feelings with their beautiful faces. Besides, I have to say I appreciate their voices, too even if I can't understand anything. The chemistry between them is amazing, you can see that in every moment they share a scene and no matter if it's a love scene or not... I love them so much and I miss times when they had much more air time and better SL... anyway, the last episode where we got the blanket scene and then the scream of christian was really good and heartbreaking... Jo and thore can give us so much in spite of few minutes and meanless storylines...
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Post by teachgirl on May 31, 2011 8:33:54 GMT -5
What about Thore and Jo? I love them and I think they are pretty good, but, as you said, non-German speakers have a different perception of acting and these guys are great with their facial expressions and body language in general. They are not flawless and sometimes things aren't perfect, but I really like their work. Besides, I think soap actors, in general, are very underestimated. I can judge from Portuguese telenovela actors. People don't always credit them for their work, which is usually done under very special conditions: long working hours, tons of pages to memorize, not many rehersals, not too much time to shoot the scenes... Actors who manage to do this and still give a decent/good/very good performance should be valued. What about you? What do you think about Thore and Jo as actors? What I said in the other thread about the acting was said in this context of soap acting. I agree that people underestimate soap actors, particularly in the context of how many pages of they have to tape each day. My compliment to Tanja was as a soap actress; in the context of soap b**es, she's pretty good, and certainly better than most of the actors she's paired with. I think it's easier to judge soap actors if you've seen them in roles outside of the soap. I would really like to see Jo in another role (other than that medical rescue show, which I think was more about action than acting.) Good writing and visionary directing can bring out someone's talent as well, and of course we don't often see this on VL. (Although I do think some of their better scenes have been decently directed). The fact that Jo and Thore manage to perform so very well a lot of the time says something about their talent, I think. Also, I think they bring out the best in each other. And I think Jo is a bit better in scenes without Thore than Thore is in scenes without Jo (well, except for when he had scenes with the actress who played Judith -- they had great chemistry and he came off very well). It is really hard for me to say this, because I just love Christian/Thore, he's always been my favorite, but I do have to acknowledge Jo's slight edge.
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Post by nalunelly on May 31, 2011 15:25:09 GMT -5
Good writing and visionary directing can bring out someone's talent as well, and of course we don't often see this on VL. (Although I do think some of their better scenes have been decently directed). The fact that Jo and Thore manage to perform so very well a lot of the time says something about their talent, I think. Also, I think they bring out the best in each other. And I think Jo is a bit better in scenes without Thore than Thore is in scenes without Jo (well, except for when he had scenes with the actress who played Judith -- they had great chemistry and he came off very well). It is really hard for me to say this, because I just love Christian/Thore, he's always been my favorite, but I do have to acknowledge Jo's slight edge. I agree. It is really difficult to do the volume of work that soap actors do and be good all the time.Some actors also have their weaknesses and the quick shooting schedule doesn't help them. For instance, I like Helena in day to day scenes but she has a lot of trouble with the more dramatic scenes. I agree that Thore does better work with Jo than he does with some others while Joe seems better able to work with most scene partners. That could be age and experience though since this was Thore's first "real" job I think. When I evaluate acting I am always looking at what is going on in their eyes rather than facial expressions or voices per se. Do they believe what they are saying and are they living in the moment or are they "pretending?"In my opinion Thore and Jo do really well at this -some of the other actors do not. Thanks LolaRuns for refinding this thread. As an actor I always look at things through this lens and it is one of the reasons I like Chrolli so much. Some days it is like a master class in communication and connection. They really listen to each other rather than just "waiting" for their next line.e
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Post by teachgirl on May 31, 2011 16:21:29 GMT -5
Good writing and visionary directing can bring out someone's talent as well, and of course we don't often see this on VL. (Although I do think some of their better scenes have been decently directed). The fact that Jo and Thore manage to perform so very well a lot of the time says something about their talent, I think. Also, I think they bring out the best in each other. And I think Jo is a bit better in scenes without Thore than Thore is in scenes without Jo (well, except for when he had scenes with the actress who played Judith -- they had great chemistry and he came off very well). It is really hard for me to say this, because I just love Christian/Thore, he's always been my favorite, but I do have to acknowledge Jo's slight edge. I agree. It is really difficult to do the volume of work that soap actors do and be good all the time.Some actors also have their weaknesses and the quick shooting schedule doesn't help them. For instance, I like Helena in day to day scenes but she has a lot of trouble with the more dramatic scenes. I agree that Thore does better work with Jo than he does with some others while Joe seems better able to work with most scene partners. That could be age and experience though since this was Thore's first "real" job I think. When I evaluate acting I am always looking at what is going on in their eyes rather than facial expressions or voices per se. Do they believe what they are saying and are they living in the moment or are they "pretending?"In my opinion Thore and Jo do really well at this -some of the other actors do not. Thanks LolaRuns for refinding this thread. As an actor I always look at things through this lens and it is one of the reasons I like Chrolli so much. Some days it is like a master class in communication and connection. They really listen to each other rather than just "waiting" for their next line.e Thank you for your professional opinion of them. It is great to get an actor's perspective. You are so right about the eyes. One of my favorite moments of connection between them is from that love scene in March of last year. Everyone focuses on the hand clasp and/or Olli running his hands up Christian's chest as sexiest/most romantic moments in that scene, but I love that moment where Olli is lying on top of Christian and Christian looks directly at him with eyes that show complete trust and complete vulnerability. And Olli looks right back at him. It takes my breath away every time I watch it.
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Post by sonia38 on May 31, 2011 17:17:24 GMT -5
I think Jo has more than a slight edge when it comes to acting over Thore. You are correct in saying he comes off very well in scenes with Jo (that's why their chemistry is off the Richter Scale) but with others he could use a view lessons. Chris was in a scene with Hagen when he talked about missing Olli the other day and I just was not feeling it When he does the anger scenes and confrontational scenes, he really shines. A few acting lessons would not hurt him but a lot of the actors on this show needs a ton of lessons right now.
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Post by fillelina on May 31, 2011 17:39:14 GMT -5
I think Jo has more than a slight edge when it comes to acting over Thore. You are correct in saying he comes off very well in scenes with Jo (that's why their chemistry is off the Richter Scale) but with others he could use a view lessons. Chris was in a scene with Hagen when he talked about missing Olli the other day and I just was not feeling it When he does the anger scenes and confrontational scenes, he really shines. A few acting lessons would not hurt him but a lot of the actors on this show needs a ton of lessons right now. I agree. But IMO Thore's acting was better during years 2008-09 than it's now. Maybe he made more effort when the Chrolli story had just started and he was excited, and it was challenging to begin to play a gay character... I don't know. Since then, for some reason, he's been lapsing a bit. But don't get me wrong, he's good, and most of the other actors on VL are still million miles behind him.
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Post by teachgirl on May 31, 2011 19:43:28 GMT -5
They really are -- what other actors on VL could do some of the wordless scenes they have done over the past few months, especially that locked in scene. Can you imagine Andi and Helena doing something like that?!
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Post by nalunelly on May 31, 2011 20:15:06 GMT -5
I agree. But IMO Thore's acting was better during years 2008-09 than it's now. Maybe he made more effort when the Chrolli story had just started and he was excited, and it was challenging to begin to play a gay character... I don't know. Since then, for some reason, he's been lapsing a bit. But don't get me wrong, he's good, and most of the other actors on VL are still million miles behind him. I have seen some of that too. I wonder if the poor writing is getting to him. I would imagine he is conflicted. He has been playing this role for a long time. When the writing is good it is a good gig - a scene partner he likes and works well with, international acclaim etc. But I would imagine he is bored. The Lily SL was rushed and this one, which could be promising is given very little screen time. That being said, I thought he did a great job with the anguished scream and that really tested him as an actor. I LOVE the wordless scenes. They are masters at that. As actors they support each other in showing such vulnerability. You really have to trust your partner to do some of the work they do. I love the nighttime hug when they are waiting for the HIV results.
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Post by banshee on May 31, 2011 21:56:13 GMT -5
Hey everyone I'm gonna jump in here, since this thread has been "revived",and just say that I became a Chrolli fan and kept watching due to what I view as great acting by both Jo and Thore. Certainly their chemistry together is undeniable but I love them individually too. Don't like trying to get into the writer's heads, or Thore's (although I'd like to pick his brain ) but it just seems like lately he has been directed in his scenes that are not Chrolli-centric to mostly play a sounding board to others - especially the Dana character. I would love to see a scene where Christian actually discovered the charred remains of all of his possessions - Thore would rock that if allowed. Would also love to see Jo portraying Olli out clubbing like he is supposedly doing lately...
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Post by jani on Jun 1, 2011 1:56:36 GMT -5
I think that Thore is good in the scenes, where Christian has to be angry or jealous, but there 're also many scenes where he had to play Christian's feelings, love, sorrow, desperation and his acting was just amazing there . But it's true, that sometimes are his scenes , where Christian has to show his feelings less believable for me , his outbursts of anger are a bit exaggerated and it seems to me sometimes that I see in the scene Thore and not Christian...but that's just my impression. I didn't like his acting in the Lily SL - he looked in some scenes a bit bored . But I still think that Thore is a very talented actor and with a good script , good directing and good acting partner is able to show really awsome acting performance. Jo doesn't play always and everything perfectly too , but it happens very rarely that I don't like his acting or his performance is less believable for me . I think, his acting has very improved over the years with Chrolli ( the same with Thore ) .I love the way he's able to say so much with just a simple glance or gesture and without words to show all Olli's feelings - the love , sadness, happiness,everything. I find interesting, that Jo has a good chemistry with almost everyone from the VL-cast . I think, that really good actors in this show are / or were also Tanja, Ansgar, Dana , Luise, Olivia. Tristan or Gregor are also not bad
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lily90
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Post by lily90 on Jun 2, 2011 17:54:43 GMT -5
Imo the acting level of VL lowered a lot lately...When I look back at the past, I can think of at least 5 or 6 names of very good actors...Today the storylines are worse, less interesting and everything, but I see the lack of good acting as a cause of disinterest in the soap, too. Jo and Thore might not be always perfect, but among the others they just sparkle at my eyes
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 3, 2011 1:49:53 GMT -5
Yeah, they lost Carla, Luise and Maria all whom I would have considered strong and didn't really replace them with anything adequate. Jo and Thore... I think they both have their flaws and strengths. But the important part is that they make you feel, is it not? Though I don't think that touching souls necesarily is the same as acting ability. Like, even really crappy actors might be able to touch you occasionally, in a "even a broken clock is right twice a day" kind of way. I do think that Jo/Olli works better in supporting scenes with others and that it is a problem that Thore has a problem with that. It seems to me that if you are good actor you should be able to make it work with if not all then at least more acting partners. I do think that chemistry is a stroke of lighting thing and you might always have the person you have the most chemistry with, but at least you should be decent/believable even with acting partners who are not your favorite. I actually think that Tristan is a good example of this, I think he has had spark with pretty much all girls they pair him with even if the partners acting is not that great (maybe with the exception of Jessica/Jana, though I think even there they had a handful of hot and interesting scenes). Thore also has I think sometimes the tendency to "pop into" some emotions in a way that can be kinda distracting. But imo he is far from the only one or even the worst one with that flaw. Actually, in this case Tristan/JH also shares that flaw, especially when he is in background scenes and he overdoes it. Like Tristan is supposed to just be part of a normal discussion and suddenly you are thinking "errrr, why is Tristan yelling? that really doesn't fit here". Like if it is his own storyline he can sort of build up to it and make it word but when he does it when the scene is not about Tristan at all it feels sort of ... unmotivated. Jo I think, unpopular opinion, can be a bit stilted/histronics at time that keep some scenes from being as good/as effective as they could be. Like, I'm not completely sure who based on writing we are supposed to root for but I kinda feel like with some of the superactors I have seen on other soaps for example, we would be feeling for them even if the writing is pitted against them. Of course that's kinda the debated question. Could Olli/Jo really pull off a solo starring storyline or is he just such a giving type in his acting style that he's eternally fated to be support? (if I look at some of my top choices, like Ansgar or Luise or Carla they kinda all had the property that they were good alone but also played well with others) Guess it will remain unanswered since they aren't giving him a solo starring storyline. Though I'm still kinda hoping that the guilt over Phil's accident will be at least partly about him and not just to give Nico somebody to yell at/angst over and give the viewers an impression of how Nico is going to react to Helena in the future,So how good are Jo and Thore? I would say good enough otherwise people wouldn't be here I do think that Thore is more the "face type" so I think he contributes a lot to making the story work for non English speakers. (while German speakers might rate him a bit lower because he can be a bit mumbly at times). I also agree that both of them really excel in silent scenes, again, something that also really lends itself to the international audience aspect. So seems like that was a really lucky factor.
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Post by mariesun on Jun 3, 2011 3:08:38 GMT -5
thank you for your opinion , LOLA I personally think that Jo is good enough to play a big role in the solo-SL without problems and just a support- role is in his case just a waste of talent. the problem is that in the acting is all a matter of opportunities - such as Miriam (Romina), I think she would deserve something more than just a support for Olli. I'm not saying that directly a big lead- role, but just something more, than sweet Miriam in th NL .If such miserable actors like Jana / Jessica, Eva / Theresa or Stephan / Philipp can get an opportunity ....why not Romina ?
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 3, 2011 3:45:13 GMT -5
I thought Jo did quite well in the talk show episode where he also had the voice over. However this episode was also very "Olli", very fitting his sometimes quirky ways.
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Post by teachgirl on Jun 3, 2011 7:22:57 GMT -5
Jo I think, unpopular opinion, can be a bit stilted/histronics at time that keep some scenes from being as good/as effective as they could be. Like, I'm not completely sure who based on writing we are supposed to root for but I kinda feel like with some of the superactors I have seen on other soaps for example, we would be feeling for them even if the writing is pitted against them. Of course that's kinda the debated question. Could Olli/Jo really pull off a solo starring storyline or is he just such a giving type in his acting style that he's eternally fated to be support? (if I look at some of my top choices, like Ansgar or Luise or Carla they kinda all had the property that they were good alone but also played well with others) Guess it will remain unanswered since they aren't giving him a solo starring storyline. Though I'm still kinda hoping that the guilt over Phil's accident will be at least partly about him and not just to give Nico somebody to yell at/angst over and give the viewers an impression of how Nico is going to react to Helena in the future,So how good are Jo and Thore? I would say good enough otherwise people wouldn't be here I also agree that both of them really excel in silent scenes, again, something that also really lends itself to the international audience aspect. So seems like that was a really lucky factor. I think this is a pretty fair assessement of them, and I do understand what you mean about the occasional histrionics when Jo has to act angry. After seeing that list of best gay kisses posted the other day, I went back and watched the scenes leading up to the kiss in the boxing ring, and during that argument between Christian and Olli, Olli at one points looks almost hysterical. Not his best acting moment. Overall, of course, I enjoy Jo's performances and as I've said in other posts, I'd love to see him take on something more challenging.
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Post by teachgirl on Jun 3, 2011 7:27:48 GMT -5
I thought Jo did quite well in the talk show episode where he also had the voice over. However this episode was also very "Olli", very fitting his sometimes quirky ways. I think they have both done really well with the voice overs; I really liked Thore's during the Lilly good-bye episode. I wish they'd give them more of them. I understand why Ludwig got the one during the locked-in episode because they were laying the groundwork for the whole family feud/fire thing, but why did Charlie get one at the end instead of Christian or Olli?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 23:49:29 GMT -5
I thought Jo did quite well in the talk show episode where he also had the voice over. However this episode was also very "Olli", very fitting his sometimes quirky ways. I think they have both done really well with the voice overs; I really liked Thore's during the Lilly good-bye episode. I wish they'd give them more of them. I understand why Ludwig got the one during the locked-in episode because they were laying the groundwork for the whole family feud/fire thing, but why did Charlie get one at the end instead of Christian or Olli? I think it had to do with that SL situation. I liked what Charlie said at the end. Sometimes we lose track of what's really important to us and when the problems appear, we blame the other party or other people. Sometimes is hard to understand and accept that oneself is the true opponent or the culprit of certain things. Christian cheated and he's just down playing it. Olli is trying to hide that pain and suffering thru things he honestly knows won't help him. At the end neither of them have realize that they have become to some extent their own obstacle. That's why I think Charlie, since she sees everything from the outside, was able to see that sometimes it's not about Christian vs Olli or the other way around. Sometimes it can be Olli vs Olli and Christian vs Christian.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 21, 2011 0:19:45 GMT -5
I mentioned this before in the spoiler thread, but I think it's worth repeating:
I think Thore really suffers from Christian no longer being moral!/angry!Christian. True that wasn't really Christian's best character trait but: 1.) It was something Thore was rather good it 2.) They took it away and didn't really replace it with anything appealing or even interesting (like let's say a more open minded outlook on the world)
Looking back I think a lot of Christian's talk-to relationship like Judith, Olivia or Gregor got a lot of their charme from the fact that Christian precisely isn't the best "just listen" friend, but that he wasn't afraid to criticize somebody or give them a piece of mind/advice. This added conflict and interaction and also a convenient way for us to get some insight into Christian.
It's not that I disapprove of Christian changing and no longer being moral!Christian but my complaint with it is: 1.) They didn't really do it in a meaningful way (for example, via a moment of revelation) 2.) It was a pretty central and as I said above useful aspect of his character and they didn't really replace it with anything of equal value (like becoming sweeter, more thoughtful or more openminded; or more scheming or otherwise interesting)
To me Christian just seems odd and a lot blander in those constant passive scenes.
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