restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on May 22, 2008 18:18:32 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with GayTime when it comes to the quality of the dubbing of US shows, btw. Now that's really awful. I never understood the whole dubbing thing anyway. I mean: imo it's ok to dub an animated movie because it doesn't make a difference how the character sounds. But it's beyond weird to see a movie/tv show when you know how the real actor sounds, but still you hear someone else talking (in another language). Why don't they subtitle? It's not like it's easier of cheaper imo... (Plus: it's soooooo much better for your English (or whatever language) when you hear it all the time... So it's not only about esthetic value, but also educational. ;D) They do the delayed dub thing all the time on news programs and documentaries when they interview people speaking something other than English. It drives me batty, sometimes. I'd like to hear the original, not just the voice-over. OK, if it were Farsi, I wouldn't have a clue. Or many other language. But when they do it on a program about the Norwegian resistance sinking the shipment of heavy water during WW2, I really resent the loss of an opportunity to discover exactly how much Norwegian I've forgotten since college. Well not really. I resent the loss of an opportunity of being really proud with myself for understanding half of it without subtitles. I think I'm getting off topic. *slaps self on wrist*
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Post by Bonobochick on May 22, 2008 18:45:15 GMT -5
Thank you for all your kind words regarding the subtitling but it's a team effort. Without tihkon's help the subs would be much worse. VL uses "youth-speak" a lot which some people think is bad German. As the writers use the expressions they heard when they were young, it's sometimes a bit dated. German colloquial expressions change all the time and tend to be quite different in different social circles and regions of Germany. But they really try to give the whole show an authentic feel: the way the sets are decorated, the music, the clothes … To my mind the acting's not bad. Thore used to be quite awful really, but he has improved enormously in the last months. I don't know why, maybe it's the better chemistry he has with Jo (I heard on a board that he didn't get along very well with Mariangela) or he took some acting lessons. But now his facial expressions are so great to watch and the interaction between him and Jo, all the little gestures that I'm sure weren't in the script, that's good acting to my mind. All my friends think I've gone completely mad subtitling a soap. You can't admit that you actually watch something like that. So everybody likes to make snide remarks about them and still a lot of people watch them. It's a guilty pleasure. I absolutely agree with GayTime when it comes to the quality of the dubbing of US shows, btw. Now that's really awful. Ok, so it wasn't just me who thought something changed in the last few months cause it really wasn't good in last years eps. Thanks Nanna
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Post by jsg03jd on May 22, 2008 23:28:42 GMT -5
Not being a native German speaker, I of course miss the nuances in the actors' delivery of their lines. I'm also sure that, as with all things translated, something gets lost in translation simply because one cannot do a literal translation of German into English (though Nanna's subtitles rock my world) without having sometimes absurd results.
Having said that, to me anyway, there's a sense of authenticity and honesty in the Ollian scenes that come across from Jo's and Thore's body language and especially their facial expressions despite the fact that I can only understand bits and pieces of what they're saying in German. There's also a sense of commitment that I get from the actors that isn't usually the case with their American counterparts. On As the World Turns, for example, while I love Jake Silbermann, Van Hansis can act circles around him so Noah ends up being pretty wooden. And their dialog is pretty lame a lot of the time as well on ATWT, but Van seems to deliver it in such a manner that it's believable, and I, as an audience member, can believe that Luke believes in what he's saying.
In VL, however, from my perspective, it seems like Jo and Thore are on a level playing field with respect to their portrayals of Olli and Christian. I may not get all the nuances of the German dialog, but I can't help but see and appreciate the love, the heart and the soul of the story the Ollian characters are telling.
And that's why I keep coming back for more. Is that "good" acting? I think so. At least from someone who doesn't have a very good grasp of Deutsch.
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mgh48
Junior Member
Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on May 22, 2008 23:45:03 GMT -5
That being said, I think the fact that Nanna is SUCH a good translator and that it is translated into really good American English, maybe does up the quality, because American soaps even don't have such good American, you know? Yes, exactly! Nanna has helped me so much to get over my hesitancy to speak. I don't know how to thank her properly. Geoff
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mgh48
Junior Member
Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on May 22, 2008 23:56:11 GMT -5
Thank you for all your kind words regarding the subtitling but it's a team effort. Without tihkon's help the subs would be much worse. VL uses "youth-speak" a lot which some people think is bad German. As the writers use the expressions they heard when they were young, it's sometimes a bit dated. German colloquial expressions change all the time and tend to be quite different in different social circles and regions of Germany. But they really try to give the whole show an authentic feel: the way the sets are decorated, the music, the clothes … To my mind the acting's not bad. Thore used to be quite awful really, but he has improved enormously in the last months. I don't know why, maybe it's the better chemistry he has with Jo (I heard on a board that he didn't get along very well with Mariangela) or he took some acting lessons. But now his facial expressions are so great to watch and the interaction between him and Jo, all the little gestures that I'm sure weren't in the script, that's good acting to my mind. All my friends think I've gone completely mad subtitling a soap. You can't admit that you actually watch something like that. So everybody likes to make snide remarks about them and still a lot of people watch them. It's a guilty pleasure. I absolutely agree with GayTime when it comes to the quality of the dubbing of US shows, btw. Now that's really awful. Nanna, you can't imagine how much this simple show and all your efforts (and the rest of the Translation Team's) have deeply affected me. All my friends and family are wondering what on Earth has happened. If, at any time, you need assistance of any sort, please feel free to call on me. Geoff
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Post by ivaniv on May 23, 2008 0:59:20 GMT -5
I never understood the whole dubbing thing anyway. I mean: imo it's ok to dub an animated movie because it doesn't make a difference how the character sounds. But it's beyond weird to see a movie/tv show when you know how the real actor sounds, but still you hear someone else talking (in another language). Why don't they subtitle? It's not like it's easier of cheaper imo... (Plus: it's soooooo much better for your English (or whatever language) when you hear it all the time... So it's not only about esthetic value, but also educational. ;D) Most people don't know how which character should sound and they want to relax and enjoy the film and not be "working" during it. Having said that I think that German dubbing is often very bland, but there are exceptions, for example I love Simpsons in German ;D
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Post by lolaruns on May 23, 2008 1:03:39 GMT -5
I think in the beginning the storyline itself was a bit stilted. The whole "Guys check each other out at the gym" angle. I wonder if the point where the acting truly started to click coincides with the moment where the actors went "aaaaaaaaah, so this is what the story is truly about at the core".
I generally think that soap acting is 90% about embodying the character they are supposed to be and about having a sort of emotional earnestness/honesty about it when they try to sell the emotional scenes. Because in the end that is what gets people addicted.
OT sorta: Don't knock the German dubbing. It's a mixed blessing. It can actually improve bad actors and bad shows. For example, bad actors who were chosen mostly for their looks often have dreadful speaking voices/no acting inflection either. Meanwhile the people picked to do dubbing will always have great sounding and expressive voices. So dubbing can improve bad acting but it can't capture good acting as well as the original actor/voice combo. That said, certain wordplay humor, particularly incidental one is horribly hard to capture with the dubbing. House for example.
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Post by jsg03jd on May 24, 2008 10:06:21 GMT -5
It seems to me that at least with Olllian, it was clear from the start that Christian had feelings for Olli -- whether it was a crush, jealousy at Olli's ability to get along with others, or hurt on behalf of Lisa. Ollian couldn't be further from Nuke. When Noah arrived, no one knew how in the world he would be Luke's love interest given how Noah was written and acted. He was uber straight and then without any struggle, was gay after he kissed Luke.
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andru
New Member
Posts: 96
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Post by andru on May 24, 2008 11:25:45 GMT -5
My opinion of the acting in VL: I think basically the speaking and acting in general is not SO realistic. Especially the upper class people in this soap aren't very authentic, the way they talk is particularly very posed.
Concerning Ollian I would say there are situations where their talking is quite natural. To me Chrisitan is one of the most natural characters in this soap and his behaviour often effects the whole scenes positively.
But for sure there are German movies or other soaps who are more realistic.
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mgh48
Junior Member
Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on May 28, 2008 7:25:07 GMT -5
Well, I've gone back through from the oldest episodes to the current where a contrast has been noted between Christian then and now.
I'd still rate even his most wooden performances (which I have a problem finding) superior to anything I've seen on the few episodes I've seen of ATWT. Perhaps even back then, the actor is trying to slowly set up for the current situation.
As for an update with my friend: we discussed the whole issue. He has no problem with my obsession with this show, at all. On the contrary, he told me an American commercial got him finally out of his post-relationship depression---so he'd hardly be snobby about a soap opera affecting me similarly.
He did say something like: Please tell me you do NOT watch those other shows!?
heheheh
Now, I need to search for them and see what that's all about.
Geoff
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Post by lolaruns on May 28, 2008 7:40:32 GMT -5
Yay, a happy end ;D
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mgh48
Junior Member
Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on May 28, 2008 8:21:28 GMT -5
*hugs to lolarun*
Yeah, it was a funny conversation. Thanks, lola, for the keen insights.
Geoff
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seven14
New Member
James Marsters-My Spike!
Posts: 177
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Post by seven14 on Jun 25, 2008 16:21:13 GMT -5
Hello,
I joined a few days ago and am just now realizing there is a single thread on Acting. I should have been typing in this area rather then General Discussion. I won't repeat what all I said, but am happy to know this thread exists!!
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Post by babylondancer on Jun 26, 2008 6:21:40 GMT -5
Of course nobody talks like these actors in real life- but there's two reasons for that: A) A traditional 'problem' of German TV. Since Germany has so many dialects, it's always been an unspoken rule that television (especially so public TV) would make an aim for 'High German'. The necessity of that is that someone living in Hamburg would actually have a hard time following dialogue that was all in Bavarian. Dialects are usually only used for comic relief or to underscore the regional provenance of the character. This has the tendency to create what might be perceived as 'wooden' or 'unrealistic' dialogue (it's considerably worse when a foreign movie is dubbed into German, an experience that except for a few rare exceptions is truly and utterly cringe- worthy). Sorry to jump in wayyyyy too late because I've just read your post. To me the way Olli and Christian are talking (and the other actors who appear in their storyline because I don't follow the other s/ls) doesn't sound strange at all because I'm living exactly in the region where VL is filmed. We don't have a strong accent in NRW (except for an old native Kölner), we might be using different terms sometimes, I remember that we already discussed some on this board. But to me they are talking just like the people around me. As for redoing a scene again and again. I have been on the set of VL, and believe me sometimes they're shooting a scene 20 times or more before the director is happy with it.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 26, 2008 6:53:41 GMT -5
*ded from jealousy*
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mgh48
Junior Member
Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on Jun 26, 2008 8:35:00 GMT -5
Agreed, lola! Tell us more, please. Which scenes did you see? How did you get on there, etc. If you feel like sharing, that is. ;D Geoff
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dkp
New Member
Posts: 181
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Post by dkp on Jun 26, 2008 18:22:45 GMT -5
Me too. If only I could afford to travel to Germany.
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Post by babylondancer on Jun 27, 2008 8:24:06 GMT -5
Well, I don't want to make you too jalous. But actually, I've been in 2 eps of VL myself. It was 10 years ago (in 1998 I think), so none of the actors I've seen/met is still on the show. But I found it somehow suprising that they were doing so many takes in a soap. And today, I'm working for one of the companies of the UFA group, but don't start to ask me loads of questions because I am not allowed to answer them. I've signed a contract with a secrecy clause.
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aldebaran
Full Member
Halunke, Ich liebe Dich so sehr!
Posts: 1,506
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Post by aldebaran on Jun 27, 2008 13:35:58 GMT -5
Well, I don't want to make you too jealous. But actually, I've been in 2 eps of VL myself. It was 10 years ago (in 1998 I think), so none of the actors I've seen/met is still on the show. But I found it somehow suprising that they were doing so many takes in a soap. WHAT??? * extremely jealous* Congrats! And good luck with your job, whatever it is.
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Post by synapticmisfire on Jul 5, 2008 19:32:48 GMT -5
I have to say, I think viewing them with the subtitles* actually gives us something of a better view of the acting (and I'm not just saying that because my German extends to "hello", "please", "thank you" and "water" I think there are some downsides - we miss a lot in the inflection (that is, you see good lines ruined because the actors put the stress on the wrong words or fumbled a punchline) and, while I can't speak for anyone else, I know I sometimes don't watch the actors as closely when my eyes are following the subtitles. But at the same time, it means that virtually every impression we get of them is from their own acting and expressions - we're not distracted if the dialogue is crappy or overly cheesy, which can often happen with English-language soaps. More importantly, since plenty of us watched/still watch unsubtitled clips, the fact that you can still pick up on a huge amount of what's going on in any given scene has to stand as a testament to the actors. I don't think they're en route to the Oscars just yet, but they're both quite good at conveying whatever they're meant to be thinking in any given scene without knowing a word of what they're saying, so kudos to them for that. Plus, it has to be repeated that they have a huge amount of chemistry together - it's rare to see on-screen couples spark so well off each other, and while some of that is luck with the casting, it counts as a plus for them. Still, 'word' to the people who commented upthread on Thore's improved acting over the past year or so - not that he was especially bad to begin with, but he's definitely relaxed into the role a lot more. Whether that's time, acting lessons or just clicking better with Jo is all speculation - whatever the reason, thank god, because it makes it a lot more watchable. *And let me just add to the numerous people upthread who have said a heartfelt "Thank you!" to Nanna and tikhon for all their work - you guys are just legends!
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seven14
New Member
James Marsters-My Spike!
Posts: 177
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Post by seven14 on Jul 23, 2008 21:37:51 GMT -5
I wonder, for daytime/soap/reality/talk-shows, is there an equivalent to the Daytime Emmys handed out in Germany? Has any particulary good Story-line or Actors on VL won such an award? If they do have this award, when is award season and could Jo and/or Thore be singled out for nomination and possible win? Best Actor wouldn't do as they are part of large ensemble, but maybe Best Supporting Actor? Thanks If possible, in some fantasy, I'd over-stuff the ballot-box for Best Supporting Actor Jo Weil imo!!
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 24, 2008 0:41:52 GMT -5
I did some searching on this and to my knowledge, no there is nothing like the Daytime Emmys. On occasional there specialized tv awards that award an entire series but no separate awards for actors or storylines.
(for example, "Deniz" from AWZ won an inner Rtl who is the hottest soap star thing, the show AWZ won a "best tv format" award which was giving out by a particular gay magazine. VL has in the past won "Best soap" on an inner European festival; but no, nothing like the Emmys that award particular actors)
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seven14
New Member
James Marsters-My Spike!
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Post by seven14 on Jul 24, 2008 4:27:57 GMT -5
Lolaruns Thank you so much!!
Well, that is a shame!!! Now that I know about them I want them to win awards for their efforts.
For sure they, Thore and Jo, have brought many more fans to the show on the whole not just their SL...even, I watch some more fuller episodes on soapcentre ...now soapcentre1.....just to see the other characters because Lord knows I can't understand the language.. but I do enjoy what I have been seeing. :-)
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 24, 2008 4:51:12 GMT -5
I dunno. I think people still overestimate the whole international fan influence. I don't think it has done much to improve VL's profile in Germany itself (and it hasn't really improved their ratings for one. The ratings have been stable, but not that great ever since Leo and Sarah were taken out of the spotlight).
And Germany might have very different priorities and opinions of what makes a good storyline. You can't forget that for German standards the Ollian doesn't really have the adjective "new" or "unique or "first of its kind" because German soaps have been doing gay and lesbian storylines for much longer. They might judge both storylines and acting on different standards.
For example, on the German boards, Jo and Thore are considered neither the best nor the worst actors (particularly the villain characters, Ansgar, Tanja und Olivia, as well as the drama actress Nathalie are considered very good; ) and VL is often considered to be a more poorly acted soap or at least one that favors good looks over good acting.
The way we watch VL tends to distort our view and it's really representative of how VL and Olllian are seen by the general German audience.
I can only say that other storylines, both acting and storywise (again the much cited Carla and Hanna, Tom and Ulli or Leonard and Cecile) made much more "waves" within Germany and probably also had more of a proven positive influence on the ratings where people just had to tune in to see whether Leonard and Cecile would end up together and so on. Compared to that Ollian seems to be more of a "must see" for people like us who follow gay storylines in general, but I don't get the impression that the same effect exists for the overall population. (again, just my interpretation)
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seven14
New Member
James Marsters-My Spike!
Posts: 177
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Post by seven14 on Jul 24, 2008 5:43:24 GMT -5
.
DefinitelyLolaruns, I am one of those, who think that way....a little narrowly... ,as I would have thought the ratings would have had a bump, but with so many of us only able to watch the program through YT, we aren't adding any new blood to the actual ratings of the show. Yes, and this is why I see myself praising to the heavens Jo and Thore's acting...I have no one else to compare them with and I'm just now watching fuller episodes with the other characters...but even so I really think they are doing a very good job with the acting. Thore is so much less stiff, to me, and Jo is wayyy better then in his Tom and Olli days...I wish the German audience could give it more of a chance and begin re-watching the program....it's when the ratings go through the roof that more acting opportunities come our guy's way.
I want to see Jo in Sci Fi, either TV show or a Movie. I love Sci Fi and he just seems cerebral and sexy enough to fit right in...Thore, I see as more a Drama person...just because we've been honored with so many scenes of him getting pissed off at the drop of a hat, and he seems like he could be threatening enough ,with his baby/masculine face, to be in a Police drama as a no nonsense young detective on a show like any one of the Law and Orders.
I know they are doing more outside of VL which is great..I was thinking about Andreas...I just think he would fit in anywhere...love interest/detective/sci fi/FBI agent on Bones/even on a comedy, if he plays someone a little dim, as he is just too beautiful and sexy to be funny as well!!!
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