Botineras - General Discussion

[chrys]

You're right. They're really not showing much hesitancy on Lalo's part. But he was almost always shown as career-driven, impulsive and stubborn so... I think they want to emphasize that. They are on the other hand showing how threatened and scared he feels around the people who know his "secret" so I disagree with you. They're showing a lot of vulnerability on his part, and the bravado he puts up to defend himself. So is he just hiding his feelings or is he really over it? Might be either, but the second option wouldn't give good soap drama, so there's hope

[Izabella]

Yes, there's hope. let's wait ans see. I can't wait though. I'm biting my nails

[bsgnut]

Hey guys, did anyone happen to download Part 15, the one with their first love scene, that was taken down from Youtube? I only saw one small part and now it's completely unavailable. I SOOO want to see this.

[chrys]

You can see past episodes online in:

botineras-capitulos.blogspot.com/
www.youtube.com/user/botinerasblog

But you'll have to find out the number of the episode.

[Izabella]

Yes, when you get to youtube blog just post askinbg for ep number

[margie]

I think Lalo hesitated in the beginning when Tato introduced him to Josephina. Tato forced Lalo to let Josephina be his fake girlfriend. Lalo realized that nobody would look out for him and the only thing that he had left was his career. And the only reason that Tato or Nino help him stay out of prison was because they still see him as a profitable commodity, and that might change if the truth comes out.

[Izabella]

Yes, poor thing if he comes down in the market he'll have nothing. What a situation no? Have to choose between love and honesty and the chance of a decent professional life, but drown in lies. So so unfair.

[masonville]

Ok people, time for some psychology with a smattering of philosophy so if you’re not into psychosocial / behavioral gymnastics move on…you’ve been warned.
Believe it or not I’m actually going to write a post whose intent is not to provide comic relief.

I’ll start by saying that looks only go so far…confidence, intelligence, common sense, self awareness, self-evaluation, how one handles adversity, dedication, loyalty, trust-worthiness, dependability are what keep someone attractive and aid them to navigate the “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune” that is this journey called life.

To get further insight into Flaco and Lalo’s characters I need to have some questions answered

1) Where’s Candy and why hasn’t Lalo reached out to her?

2) I want to see a scene with Josephina (or Candy) and Lalo in the bedroom, or wherever they choose to initiate copulation. Is he able to derive pleasure from heterosexual intercourse – preferably alcohol free?

3) How long does Flaco stay celibate? Sure his libido has taken a licking but he’s still ticking. We’ve seen him on the prowl for casual homosexual encounters…has being with Lalo made him exclusively monogamous? If there’s no reconciliation in sight, how long will / should that last…by his own admission, craving sexual relations with men is not something that he has been able to control in the past.

4) Does Lalo consider sexual relations with other males or was Flaco his first and last? His homosexuality seems out of context…or rather is only seen with Flaco in the context. There needs to be an evolution / progression to make it believable.

5) Undoubtedly after the photo debacle, both Flaco and Lalo are afraid and are suppressing their feeling and urges to varying degrees and having variable success but what happens when they reach their limit? We’re creatures of habit, and when tested by trials and tribulations it’s a struggle to adapt and not resort to what we “usually do”. If we’re maladaptive prior to stressors, we’re more so after

Grief / loss of any kind (including lovers, idealism, naïveté) is a process and there are stages, that individuals (Flaco and Lalo included) pass on their way to eventual resolution and acceptance.
What stage do you think that Flaco and Lalo stand at this time in point?
1) SHOCK & DENIAL

2) PAIN & GUILT

3) ANGER & BARGAINING

4) DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS

5) RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH (the upward turn)

6) ACCEPTANCE & HOPE

Be advised that the grieving process may not be linear and people may never reach the stage of acceptance, especially if they choose to deny the truth.

(Adapted from an article in the Wisdom Journal entitled “Denial isn’t a River in Egypt")
Why do people deny the truth?

1. People deny the truth because it makes demands of them.
It’s hard to accept that which makes one uncomfortable, unlikable / unpopular, or requires extra work / effort. Does Lalo really accept that he’s gay? Is it unreasonable for Flaco to want to eschew the repercussions of “coming out”?

2. People deny the truth because it’s more comfortable (and easier) to believe a lie.
There are no gay soccer players.

3. People deny the truth because they’re blinded.
This can be especially problematic if one is blinded by love / infatuation. Flaco and Lalo are not perfect (none of us is) and may not be perfect for each other in the long run.

4. People deny the truth because they think they’re the exception.
Very rarely, if ever, does anyone rate themselves as below average. Study after study shows that people rate themselves as average or above in everything from investing, to looks, to how they drive. If you feel the need to comment that you’re the exception to this rule, you just proved the point.

5. People deny the truth because they’re biased.
• Political bias
• Correlation/Causation bias – thinking things are causal just because they’re correlated
• Hindsight bias – thinking you “knew” it was going to happen that way and … it did! < --- Flaco/Chiqui photo debacle
• Status Quo bias – having an aversion to change < --- see below
• Fear bias – fear of the unknown < --- will the world order collapse if soccer accepts that 10% of FIFA players are homosexuals?

6. People deny the truth because they’re afraid of standing alone.
“What’s the most important lesson we can teach our children?”
“Teach them to stand alone.”
Standing alone and standing for the truth are hallmarks of greatness. Unfortunately few have the courage and emotional fortitude to tolerate doing so. How can I blame Flaco or Lalo when few of us are the exception to this rule?

7. People deny the truth because they’re afraid of being judged or ridiculed.
This goes hand in hand with fear of standing alone, but with a twist. Fear of the judgment and ridicule of others isn’t just based on a fear of loneliness but a fear of becoming ostracized, of being an outcast, of never being accepted. <--- applicable to Flaco and Lalo and most of us.

8. People deny the truth because it doesn’t fit with their preconceived notion of how the world works.
This probably accounts for more truth denial than the other seven combined. Depending on who you are, where you were raised, and what you were exposed to as a child, your notion of how the world works may be vastly different than someone raised just a few miles down the road. Flaco and Lalo have been brought up in a world where homosexuality and soccer are non-overlapping Venn diagrams but I worry about the effect of preconceived notions even in this thread / board where people from many geographic regions, cultures, backgrounds and orientation interact.

Have a good week everyone and please feel free to discuss…


ps: for our American participants, Have a Happy and Safe Memorial Day!!!

[chrys]

Interesting post, masonville. I know people get frustrated about Flaco and Lalo these days, they want them to get together and out and proud no matter what. But 1) that's not good drama and 2) that's not realistic either. Both of them have very strong believable reasons to be acting like they are.

It's easier for Flaco, who has been dealing with his sexuality for years, to want to carry out a relationship with Lalo - remember he's been having secret affairs in Europe, so that's something he knows and could do again. [Besides, it looks like it's a constant that every time he pushes Lalo away and he goes, Flaco changes his mind.]

Lalo, on the other hand, is a lot more scared for his career because he just started - besides, he seems to think it's all he's got. He has no other aims, no friends, no family around - it's football or nothing for him. It'd be hard to argue that he should be anxious to risk that (and it is a big risk - there are no successful out male players not only in football but in most team sports) for a man who has pushed him away just a little time ago (at the time of the divorce mess. Remember Flaco even wanted to go back to Lily) and, moreover, for something he seems not to be comfortable with, his sexuality. Flaco seems to hope they could go on secretly, but Lalo is much more unsure. For one, he's never done that. Two, look how well it's worked so far? And three, he's being pressured and watched closely by his manager.

Now your questions...

May 30, 2010 22:10:00 GMT -5 masonville said:

To get further insight into Flaco and Lalo’s characters I need to have some questions answered

1) Where’s Candy and why hasn’t Lalo reached out to her?

2) I want to see a scene with Josephina (or Candy) and Lalo in the bedroom, or wherever they choose to initiate copulation. Is he able to derive pleasure from heterosexual intercourse – preferably alcohol free?

3) How long does Flaco stay celibate? Sure his libido has taken a licking but he’s still ticking. We’ve seen him on the prowl for casual homosexual encounters…has being with Lalo made him exclusively monogamous? If there’s no reconciliation in sight, how long will / should that last…by his own admission, craving sexual relations with men is not something that he has been able to control in the past.

4) Does Lalo consider sexual relations with other males or was Flaco his first and last? His homosexuality seems out of context…or rather is only seen with Flaco in the context. There needs to be an evolution / progression to make it believable.

5) Undoubtedly after the photo debacle, both Flaco and Lalo are afraid and are suppressing their feeling and urges to varying degrees and having variable success but what happens when they reach their limit? We’re creatures of habit, and when tested by trials and tribulations it’s a struggle to adapt and not resort to what we “usually do”.

1) She seems to have just disappeared after the hospital thing. There was talk that she was gonna come back but she never did.

2) Hmm, I'm not sure what that would solve... He may be bi and he may be gay (and the writers are almost surely writing him as gay because authors never write bisexuals) but either way he has a secret to hide.

3) Yeah, well, they seem firm in writing Flaco as desperate and crying, so... Also, I'm not sure if they are willing to show his sexuality outside a love story. They did that in the shower scene, but that was mostly a hint of what would come.

4) I think we have to keep in mind he's really young. I think it seems to be an unresolved thing in his mind - he might have known about it before Flaco but his preconceived notions and shame seem to have kept him from dealing with it even now. See how he looked really guilty and embarrassed in front of Tato. He looks nowadays like he doesn't have a real interest in women but still thinks he should and could be with one.

5) That's what we're dying to see

[chrys]

May 30, 2010 18:02:10 GMT -5 margie said:

I think Lalo hesitated in the beginning when Tato introduced him to Josephina. Tato forced Lalo to let Josephina be his fake girlfriend. Lalo realized that nobody would look out for him and the only thing that he had left was his career. And the only reason that Tato or Nino help him stay out of prison was because they still see him as a profitable commodity, and that might change if the truth comes out.

I completely agree

[masonville]

Chrys, always a pleasure to read your thoughts…they make the graveyard shift pass a little more quickly
So that there’s no confusion from meandering verbal / mental gymnastics, the impetus of the initial post was to present the concept of grief and reasons why inability to accept the truth might preclude successful resolution of grief / loss. The catch being that accepting the truth, like grieving is difficult and may be impossible to achieve. Since this a BOTINERAS thread, we’ve used Flaco and Lalo as illustrative examples.

I leave it to others to decide whether Lalo and Flaco should come out loud and proud. I’ve just tried to present reasons why they may not be successful based on their inability to accept fundamental truths and their inability (as presented to this point in the series) to progress through the stages of grieving / loss.

To address the points raised…

2) Hmm, I'm not sure what that would solve... He may be bi and he may be gay (and the writers are almost surely writing him as gay because authors never write bisexuals) but either way he has a secret to hide.
It solves how resolute he is and how much he’s willing to sacrifice / pay. Saying you can do something (ie I’ll bang a chick for my soccer career) and actually doing it are not the same. He’s got doubts about his sexuality and we can pontificate till the cows come home, but the bottom line is the degree of guilt he’ll experience (conscious or unconscious) is commensurate with the extent of cover-up. How much stress he experiences, how much resentment he feels and what extent of retaliatory actions (conscious or inadvertent / directed at himself or others) he takes depend on whether he’s unable to perform sexually with a woman, is able to complete the act but is repulsed by having to do so, completes the act but the “fireworks” were missing, or is back on the saddle and raring to ride a couple more fillies.

3) Yeah, well, they seem firm in writing Flaco as desperate and crying, so... Also, I'm not sure if they are willing to show his sexuality outside a love story. They did that in the shower scene, but that was mostly a hint of what would come.
It’s unrealistic to expect that Flaco will just give up having sex. I suspect his ability to have sexual relations with his wife was an outlet for a good deal of his guilt, and it buffered him over the years. If there’s no reconciliation with Lalo, the dramatic and realistic thing to do would be to show him going on with his (sex) life. It’s what a heterosexual would do. If they skirt that issue one runs the risk of suggesting that homosexuality (albeit covert) should not be pursued. Heterosexual intercourse isn't only seen in the context of love, why should homosexual intercourse be held to that standard?

4) I think we have to keep in mind he's really young. I think it seems to be an unresolved thing in his mind - he might have known about it before Flaco but his preconceived notions and shame seem to have kept him from dealing with it even now.
There is no doubt that Flaco kissed and initiated Lalo to homosexual relations but given the fact that Lalo consented to participate, despite the fact that he had preconceived notions of how hard it would be, prompts me to say that Lalo needs to grow up and accept his share of the culpability. Unless Lalo's attraction for other men in addressed, even if it's just to show that he's suppressing the urges for the sake of conforming to soccer's expectations, I'm left wondering if being gay is situational / person-specific for him. Facing these adverse circumstances on his own (since Flaco doesn't appear at this point to be equipped to handle things for himself let alone aid Lalo) is a great (albeit painful) opportunity to mature. It’s time for Lalo to stop expecting to be helped by others - that’s a privilege few get for free, not an entitlement or a right. It’s unfortunate he feels/is abandoned but he’s not the first or the last to feel/be that way. He (and soccer culture) may not be able to accept certain truths but he has to be able to accept responsibility for his life / actions and live with the consequences - something which Flaco is struggling with. If he wants to live for soccer then I agree, he needs to have the approval of others be they managers, team-mates, public supporters etc. I’m glad that he’s resolute and working to alter the person that stares back at him in the mirror, but to be successful in the long run he needs to make choices/sacrifices that he can live with long-term and that he doesn’t become too resentful of, because after a certain point, the person staring back is unrecognizable and not worth knowing...and probably not willing/interested/able to play soccer at full potential

[margie]

I think Lalo is in a difficult situation, granted some of his own making. He was forced into a contract with Tato (because of Vanina's death) and must follow what he wants if he wants to advance his career. Also he is dependent on the coach whether he can play and show his skills so some team will want to buy his contract from Tato. His cousin is the star of his team and can't stand him, his ex-lover dumped him when things got difficult and wanted to go back to his wife. When he was kidnapped by Sophia and her thugs, nobody seemed to care and only Mia suspected something was wrong and went out looking for him. If anyone was ready for an mental breakdown I would think it was him. He has no support system and he must feel trapped from all sides.

[Izabella]

Our Lalo's been abandoned to his fate. But I still think he can count on Flaco, as the only person who cares for him. If they are to be together, it will be a very hard way, but my prediction is he'll be finally sold to a team in Europe and have a beautiful career, leaving Flaco behind. Or, in the worst of the hypothesis, the freakers will end up killing him or sending him to jail. Soaps...Bah! I wish they could make it at least a lil bit more genuine.

[margie]

I see one of 2 things happening

the secret affair between Flaco and Lalo comes out and Tato abandons him because he sees him as damaged goods and Lalo is sent off to prison.
or Flaco and Lalo reunite but continue to keep their relationship a secret but Lalo eventually parts with Flaco when Tato sells his contract to another team. This is the one I hope happens even though they don't end up together, it is better than ending up in jail and all prospects for a career in football ending.

I could see it go either way with these writers. I don't think they are very predictable.

[margie]

May 30, 2010 22:10:00 GMT -5 masonville said:

1) Where’s Candy and why hasn’t Lalo reached out to her?

I was wondering that too. You would think that she would be pissed if she saw pics in the press of Lalo with this new bimbo Josephina. Didn't Lalo mention something about Candy when he was thrown in jail. I didn't catch the gist of that conversation.

[chrys]

margie Yes, that was the one time she's been mentioned ever since she disappeared. Lalo said it must have been Candy the one that alerted the police to Vanina's death and cover-up. We know it wasn't but maybe they're still bringing her back?

[chrys]

First thing, I'm really sad about Nino's death so this is gonna affect my post, sorry. I was hoping until the very end it wasn't him, but no such luck Nino is the only character besides the boys that I actually cared about, so it ruined the episode for me. On the other hand, those of you who don't watch anything else are gonna see this is a really good episode, sweet and promising.

So moving on from my mourning to our lessons...

21. The police department is indeed a joke, and the writers know it. Mía surprised me and admitted what a fail they are as police officers. All these months of working and, on top of people dying like flies, the one time they get evidence it's because of pure luck Salgado, though, is in denial and thinks they "solved" the case because they're good. Yeah, whatever, boring one

22. Flaco is still thinking about coming out. He thinks about it in his bed and yay decides to call Lalo Yep, that was great. They talk about the picture scandal and Flaco tells him he wonders what would have happened if he had said he was gay in the press conference. Lalo goes all funny on us and says, yeah, sure, do it, it's the same as suicide, go ahead ;D

23. Funny and sweet Lalo isn't gone - he just needs the right kind of encouragement to come to surface. Welcome back. We missed you

24. Your hopes may come back to haunt you. Show? You know when there were spoilers about more erotic scenes I was thrilled, right? Well, not for one second I thought you meant Tato and Sofía in bed Thanks for nothing! [At least Sofía left early in the morning with a stupid letter saying goodbye. Please don't come back.]

25. Riganti is cool because she calls her lame police offices out on their lameness and overall ignorance of how to do their job

26. Continuing on our lesson on the greatness of Flaco's friends, first Chiqui jokes around with Flaco about the photo scandal - he says it's best if they greet from a distance now, and then they kiss on the cheek, as usual - and then he clears out as soon as he spots Lalo behind Flaco. Good job

27. On my last post I talked about Lalo's ever worsening paranoia about being found out. And tonight Flaco called him out on it yay ;D First, on the field. After Lalo says he got worried about him Flaco says he wants to talk and invites Lalo to dinner. Cute Lalito got this super scared expression on his face, like a deer caught in the headlights ;D It was just the first of many. Flaco explains to him that it's just dinner at a public place and that they're teammates: no one's gonna assume he's gay because they had dinner together. Thank you Flaco for showing him reason

28. Now there was this very crazy moment. Chiqui got a phone call from Argentina's coach apologizing for not being able to take him to the World Cup because of his legal troubles. Then Anguila comes by saying he was "convocado" (called up) so Anguila is going to the World Cup? But he was barely playing and he was pretty much shown to be in decadence, at the end of his career

29. There's hope and progress for the boys They're very sweet in the restaurant scene, and full of longing for each other. If they are to go back together, Lalo needed to calm down about his fear of being found out and Flaco was doing just that: calling him out on his paranoia and grounding him back in reality. He did so between amused and calm and seems to have reached Lalo

30. Lalo has a problem with the way Flaco looks at him. At the restaurant Lalo is really really nervous. I'm not sure what made him more nervous, Flaco or the idea that people around were watching them lol. He asked Flaco to stop with the looks twice, and they did seem to burn him on the spot Flaco went on to calm him down about how no one was looking at them etc. And then he says he has a good time with him, and Lalo admits to the same and they look longingly at each other, so we're moving forwards here

31. I don't really wanna comment on the final scene. They have this dance of the guns thing, Nino is awesome and owns Tato and then shit happened. At least he could have shot Marga when Chiqui shot him... I can't believe they killed such a great character

Tonight's wish: Say it isn't so and that Nino will rise from the dead. Even in a zombie plot, I don't care. Please?

Tonight's question: Am I the only one who's gonna miss Nino? Who's gonna comment on Flaco and Lalo's sex lives from now on?

Sorry about my whining; I can't help it

Oh how could I forget?
32. There's hope - part 2. Is the show really hearing our prayers? Flaco seems to be moving on from his crying like a kicked baby phase and back to his relaxed, funny, confident self. Welcome back

[azuma]

Yes! I'm so happy they are finally going to have a dinner date.
Would you mind if I asked to translate the phone conversation into English ?

[chrys]

azuma I don't mind, but I'm not the best person to ask for a word by word translation since my Spanish isn't that good. Sometimes I miss parts of what they say.

Flaco asks Lalo if he can talk.
Lalo says yes, he's alone.
Flaco says he wants to know how Lalo is.
Lalo says he's good, normal, whatever, and talks about the picture scandal, asks what happened.
Flaco tells him it's solved because of the press conference.
Lalo says he must have felt like it was all going to hell because of something stupid and Flaco agrees but says he's not sure it was something stupid.
Lalo tells him that Flaco and Chiqui are football legends, it's unbelievable that they would be having sex.
Flaco, amused, asks: Can you imagine it?
Lalo: No, I can't.
He also can't imagine the day after, saying there are things you can't go back from.
Flaco tells him that all the time he's been wondering "what if I tell the truth? what if I had said in the press conference, ladies and gentlemen, el Flaco Riveiro is gay?"
Lalo: Great, do it. It's the same as suicide. Do it, go ahead. You know one can't.
Flaco: Yeah, maybe, what do I know...

So, that's pretty much it. I hope it helps. Any corrections from better Spanish speakers are welcome

[azuma]

chrys
Encantada. Soy azuma.
Te entienda perfectamente.
Yo tener ganas de hablé en español.
Mil gracias
Is that right?

[masonville]

great recap as always chrys!
did anyone else notice that they used yellow diffusion / lighting and some similar poses / shots when they filmed Sofia and Tato that they used for Flaco and Lalo's first time together <--skeeved me out

next "shoot first and ask questions later" is a good rule to follow if you're outnumbered...but dead men tell no tales...and if Marga's anything akin to a cat, she's breathing a sigh of relief and has used up two of her nine lives

does anyone know anything about ballistics and physiology?
if you don't give a damn about that, then move on...you've been warned

moving on...
it's veeeery unlikely since Chiqui shot Nino from a lateral approach to have the bullet wound (entry) be anterior...
it's possible if Nino twisted for the trajectory to be oblique and the wound they showed to be an exit shot, but then the spleen, colon and diaphragm would have been the most likely to have been injured and those injuries dont kill you in less than one minute

even if one can believe that this magic bullet managed to enter Nino anteriorly in the left upper quadrant (LUQ), where they showed it, it would have to be a cardiac shot to kill him in less than one minute ...
the heart in not found in the LUQ ... in humans ... additionally it takes approximately one minute to pump out one's blood volume (4-5 L) and exsanguinate ... and there's always some tamponade which precludes uncontrolled hemorrhage and slows the blood loss... Nino dying in this manner and so quickly is stupid on sooo many levels

now there may be one "saving grace" here and that is Tato has no clue how to pronounce someone dead ... if someone's in shock and presumably in pain from having their insides scrambled, they can be bradycardic and hypotensive, so just having Tato put his hand on Nino's neck for a few seconds might miss a pulse...hope springs eternal...

however, even if he's dead, I'm proud of the way Nino went down...he didn't wuss out or thrash or moan...he fell like a sac of bricks and didn't budge ...

maybe the bullet severed his spinal cord? <--- wishful thinking that someone would have enough "know-how" to write a realistic trajectory for the bullet...maybe they're saving all the realism for other characters...hope springs eternal

in parting, I thought the Algerian soccer squad was rough but the dudes from el deportive cristal make them look like school boys...this line-up has more murderers, liars and lotharios than the death row section of most prisons...nice going Flaco, by virtue of the fact that you haven't killed anyone...yet, you're the moral center for this crew...
or is it Anguila...he hasn't cheated on his wife or actually killed anyone...yet...has he

[bdc]

Videos from capitulo 101
thanks to Natyges

[bdc]

it's official....
BLACK suits Lalo ;D ;D ;D

[bdc]

chrys

agradecimentos para o resumo
thanks for the recap

[bdc]

Capitulo 101 is on line

botineras-capitulos.blogspot.com/2010/04/botineras-capitulo-101.html