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Post by Nasos29 on Sept 13, 2011 9:05:06 GMT -5
You post raises many issues about sexuality and I would like to address some.
I understand that we are talking here about VL which is a soap, dont know whether the writers have done some research on sexuality but regardless I would not make a fuss of what a soap is saying/showing on the issue as long as it is relatively credible.
My take on sexuality is that each and every case and person is different when it comes to sexuality. The best way to examine sexuality is to put it within the context of the science that is primarily responsible for studying human sexuality.This would be Psychology.
According to the American Psychological Association homosexuality and bisexuality fall within what Psychologists call the normal spectrum of human sexuality, which ranges from absolute heterosexuality to absolute homosexuality.This means that homosexuality and bisexuality on their own are not related to paraphilias. Sexuality and sexual orientation are not a matter of choice but they seem to emerge usually around early puberty up to early adulthood for the majority of people.
Now whether one decides to act on their homosexuality or bisexuality does not relate to their actual sexual orientation but to their sexual behavior among other things. Given that humans have the ability to consciously fall within various behavioral patterns ,then sexual behavior is not an indicator of one's sexuality.
For people who fall somewhere between absolute heterosexuality and absolute homosexuality (shades of grey I like to call it) the process of identifying as either straight, gay or bi is a very personal one. Psycho-social adjustment plays an important role for most to adopt one or the other identity and some people consciously decide to never label themselves or adopt a specific identity in terms of sexuality.
Each individual is unique on how it perceives sexuality and obviously on how it behaves. My opinion is that leaving aside stereotypes we can understand better this reality and ultimately accept that people are a mosaic of behavioral patterns , sexual identities etc . Thus I believe that the best indicator of one's sexuality is : self report
Besides Psychology inform us that sexuality is not static and that it can change throughout our life time, even though the majority of us by early adulthood would have a good idea of what our sexuality is. Now, whether we accept it or not is a different ball game...
Going back to VL I just want to say that I hardly take serious of what Christian's or Olli's sexuality is. However, Chrolli for me has raised a valid point with the character of Christian....that is the stages or difficulty for someone to accept their sexuality. I relate to this and found the approach from VL as realistic, now whether Christian is blue,black or red I dont really care bsc in real life I would hesitate to fall in a vicious circle of trying to guess a person's sexuality. This is their own very personal business and allow me to say that this was one of the biggest challenges for myself as well.
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Post by canadiansunshine on Sept 15, 2011 0:02:19 GMT -5
What an amazing post Nasos29. You really made me think about a person's sexual identity vs sexual behaviour, and the fluidity of sexuality that flows across a spectrum. I've heard instances of people who identified as gay, met the girl of their dreams, then identified as bisexual. If you've heard of Logan McCree, you know what I mean. If not, maybe look him up but it may be NSFW And vice versa. But in the end, it's not up to others to "peg" what is very personal to an individual. Thank you for your insight.
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elliot
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Post by elliot on Sept 15, 2011 6:40:33 GMT -5
Nasos29For me it's pretty clear that VL thinks about SLs first and characters second. They decide on a gay boxer story so Christian suddenly falls in love with a man without any indication that he'd ever been interested in the same sex. If Chrolli hadn't turned out to be popular, Christian would have been hooked up with another woman and the gay thing forgotten the way it was with Charlie and Rebecca, neither of whom had ever expressed any interested in a same sex relationship before or after. Even now the writers are still leaving the door open for that to happen by continuing to have Christian knock boots with women and never so much as look at another man unless it's Olli. Speaking of Olli, at the beginning of the Chrolli story he was bisexual because it suited the SL to have him lock lips with Coco. Besides which VL already had a gay character in Carla. Now with Carla gone Olli's bisexuality has gone out the window and he is the show's resident gay character with the cliched wardrobe and not so much as a hint of interest in women. If in the future an SL calls for him to be with a woman the bisexual tag can be pulled out dusted off and applied again. I'm getting more and more convinced that if Chrolli do ever get the chance to address their issues the subject of Christian's sexuality will never be addressed because how on earth do you begin to explain a character who continually describes himself as gay but is only attracted to one man, keeps cheating with other women and who, when challenged, insists it doesn't mean he isn't gay? More than likely it'll come down to the issue of Christian's betrayal which only happened because of their inability to have a family and end with him asserting that no one can take the place of Olli without any great exploration as to why his conquests always happen to be female.
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Post by Nasos29 on Sept 15, 2011 12:19:36 GMT -5
Nasos29For me it's pretty clear that VL thinks about SLs first and characters second. They decide on a gay boxer story so Christian suddenly falls in love with a man without any indication that he'd ever been interested in the same sex. If Chrolli hadn't turned out to be popular, Christian would have been hooked up with another woman and the gay thing forgotten the way it was with Charlie and Rebecca, neither of whom had ever expressed any interested in a same sex relationship before or after. Even now the writers are still leaving the door open for that to happen by continuing to have Christian knock boots with women and never so much as look at another man unless it's Olli. Speaking of Olli, at the beginning of the Chrolli story he was bisexual because it suited the SL to have him lock lips with Coco. Besides which VL already had a gay character in Carla. Now with Carla gone Olli's bisexuality has gone out the window and he is the show's resident gay character with the cliched wardrobe and not so much as a hint of interest in women. If in the future an SL calls for him to be with a woman the bisexual tag can be pulled out dusted off and applied again. I'm getting more and more convinced that if Chrolli do ever get the chance to address their issues the subject of Christian's sexuality will never be addressed because how on earth do you begin to explain a character who continually describes himself as gay but is only attracted to one man, keeps cheating with other women and who, when challenged, insists it doesn't mean he isn't gay? More than likely it'll come down to the issue of Christian's betrayal which only happened because of their inability to have a family and end with him asserting that no one can take the place of Olli without any great exploration as to why his conquests always happen to be female. ΟΚ, Ι guess I might use my personal example to address what you are saying. Before I do that though I seem to remember that when Coco asked Christian why he did not say anything about being gay he said something along the lines ''I was confused long before Olli'' Now as I said I am not going to entertain the random ideas of VL writers since it is obvious we are talking about a soap here. My post was aiming to put sexuality in the context of the science that studies it and not in the context of a soap. It seems that some make generalizations on sexuality from VL assuming that this is how things work in real life....well I am sure that we must have had many cases similar to Christian in real life but that does not mean something on its own....and certainly this should not be the basis of examining human sexuality. Just to give you an example...up to 23yo i never had a single gay experience in my life and I was actually in a long term relationship with a girl ( like double the time Christian was with Coco) . This does not imply that I was straight just bsc I was not acting on my sexual attraction towards men. Actually my sexual attraction towards men was dormant and I guess I had blocked it out for a good deal of time and yes most definitely I was confused about the whole thing and did not wanna deal with it at that time....this is why I made a reference to the psycho social adjustment issue. Anyhows I was your next door straight boy who was a cool relaxed dude until I met a guy at UNI. What happened was that from totally straight I went to totally gay and from a straight relationship i switched to a gay one (which was in fact even longer than the straight one)....mind you that I had zero sexual experience with men up to that point. Anyhow my point is that sexual behavior which falls within what we call human behavior is not an indicator of one's sexuality. Sexuality and sexual orientation are very personal stuff and are not defined by our sexual behavior exclusively. The fact that I did not act on my dormant gay feelings does not mean I did not have an attraction towards the same sex. My opinion is (and I think Psychology will agree with me ) that the best indicator of one's sexuality is what people report on their own...and not what we believe according to our wishes,prejudices,stereotypes or ignorance. Anyway I hope I made it more clear now... canadiansunshine thanks for your comments
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philos
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Post by philos on Sept 15, 2011 14:56:46 GMT -5
Anyhow my point is that sexual behavior which falls within what we call human behavior is not an indicator of one's sexuality. Sexuality and sexual orientation are very personal stuff and are not defined by our sexual behavior exclusively. The fact that I did not act on my dormant gay feelings does not mean I did not have an attraction towards the same sex. My opinion is (and I think Psychology will agree with me ) that the best indicator of one's sexuality is what people report on their own...and not what we believe according to our wishes,prejudices,stereotypes or ignorance. Anyway I hope I made it more clear now... Nasos, I think that we have been similar experiences in our life; I agree with you that sexual identity is a personal feeling and it can be defined only by ourselves, if we don't lie to.Going back to Christian, he defined himself as gay after he falls in love with Olli; now too he hasn't defined himself as straight, maybe because the Theresa affair is only funny time. It's hard for me to imagine a gay man enjoyng himself with a woman, but as hardly said one of my friends "an hole is an hole" and Christian hasn't looked for sex, she offered it all the time. Easy, not effort, no involvement. So, IMO (and I underline IMO) Christian is a gay man that can have sex with a woman in the same way he can have with a living Barbie doll.
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robin1
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Post by robin1 on Sept 15, 2011 15:07:57 GMT -5
christian never looked for girls... they were always there. every girl he was kissing or doin' anything else after he was with olli was next to him. there wasn't any guy around when he was in the mood for sex. so im with philos: the sex with women means only sex... his heart will ever belong to olli.
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Post by Nasos29 on Sept 15, 2011 15:55:28 GMT -5
Anyhow my point is that sexual behavior which falls within what we call human behavior is not an indicator of one's sexuality. Sexuality and sexual orientation are very personal stuff and are not defined by our sexual behavior exclusively. The fact that I did not act on my dormant gay feelings does not mean I did not have an attraction towards the same sex. My opinion is (and I think Psychology will agree with me ) that the best indicator of one's sexuality is what people report on their own...and not what we believe according to our wishes,prejudices,stereotypes or ignorance. Anyway I hope I made it more clear now... Nasos, I think that we have been similar experiences in our life; I agree with you that sexual identity is a personal feeling and it can be defined only by ourselves, if we don't lie to.Going back to Christian, he defined himself as gay after he falls in love with Olli; now too he hasn't defined himself as straight, maybe because the Theresa affair is only funny time. It's hard for me to imagine a gay man enjoyng himself with a woman, but as hardly said one of my friends "an hole is an hole" and Christian hasn't looked for sex, she offered it all the time. Easy, not effort, no involvement. So, IMO (and I underline IMO) Christian is a gay man that can have sex with a woman in the same way he can have with a living Barbie doll. Obviously lying doesnt count. I am talking about when someone is genuinely frustrated and confused about their sexuality. Now if you lie to others about ur sexuality just to conceal it its a different issue all together....Though I can be sympathetic to this given that not all societies are ready to accept homosexuality and some people go to extreme lengths just to appease family/friends ,society . Some even end up getting married. Still I would not pass judgement to them since I know that life can be a bitch sometimes and stakes are really high for some people. Finally, yes I agree...A hole is a hole and when u r horny you can even have sex with a spoon This is true especially for us men who seem to have a ''wilder'' relationship with sex.
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Post by Nasos29 on Oct 8, 2011 7:09:13 GMT -5
Transferring this comment from Thore's thread I bet, but a long time ago we had a days-long analysis based on Chrolli's original SL and their behaviours back then, and concluded that Christian is a hungry power bottom. I even did a fanfic-thesis on it! Ah... those were the days. I think Christian is definitely the top and Oliver is the bottom. Whenever there is a crisis Christian seems to take control and can be more rational than Oliver. Oliver seems more effeminate and feminine and Christian is very masculine. In my mind, I can see Oliver as the bottom and Christian as the top. While I prefer (just because) Christian as top , I think that behavior is definitely NOT an indicator of one's sexual identity and sexual practices . In fact I believe that ''masculinity versus femininity'' arguments which aim to categorize sexual practices are mostly based on stereotypical thinking. I ve met extremely effeminate gay men who simply are 100% tops as I have met extremely masculine gay men who are insatiable bottoms. Each person is different and while I understand that stereotypes are difficult to break I personally almost never take them into account.
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mitsaso
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Post by mitsaso on Oct 8, 2011 8:15:56 GMT -5
Transferring this comment from Thore's thread I think Christian is definitely the top and Oliver is the bottom. Whenever there is a crisis Christian seems to take control and can be more rational than Oliver. Oliver seems more effeminate and feminine and Christian is very masculine. In my mind, I can see Oliver as the bottom and Christian as the top. While I prefer (just because) Christian as top , I think that behavior is definitely NOT an indicator of one's sexual identity and sexual practices . In fact I believe that ''masculinity versus femininity'' arguments which aim to categorize sexual practices are mostly based on stereotypical thinking. I ve met extremely effeminate gay men who simply are 100% tops as I have met extremely masculine gay men who are insatiable bottoms. Each person is different and while I understand that stereotypes are difficult to break I personally almost never take them into account. I agree with what you said, Nasos, roles in sex have nothing to do with one's character, and even if they did, what vjay mentioned should be the other way around. In every crisis, Christian is the "emotional" one who runs away because he can't deal with it or breaks out in a fit of bitchyness, while Olli is the one taking control (a bit more than needed, occasionaly.)
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vjay
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Post by vjay on Oct 8, 2011 9:37:11 GMT -5
Well I feel the VL writers need to clear up some issues about Christian's sexual orientation. Is Christian gay or bisexual?
Christian was with Oliver for a long time yet he cheats on him with women? I wonder why? Are the writers trying to say Christian is struggling with his sexuality? Christian has also made statements about his confusion. I remember,. right before Oliver and Christian got married, Christian had a conversation with Andi and he seemed surprised he was marrying Oliver another man. He said he thought he was going to marry a woman.
In my mind, Oliver is gay, I know Jo Weil says that his character Oliver is bisexual but I don't see that. The writers always link Oliver to another man, I am sure Oliver has had relationships with women in the past but he is clearly only into men. Oliver is even angry at Christian because he feels he cannot compete with the women Christian sleeps with. I think this is one of the reasons the guys broke up over Christian's bisexuality. The way Christian was written he seems to me to be bisexual he is sexually attracted to men and women. Everyone from Jessica, and Charlie, and Rebecca say Christian is bi.
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Post by lolaruns on Oct 8, 2011 15:48:25 GMT -5
Carrying this over from the Christian topic, since it probably fits better here: Heh I don't think that even if you could say that somebody is "more girly" in the relationship that necessarily says something about what they like in bed. However, as far as being more girly, I always found it very weird when people say the being sensitive = more female and being in control/calling the shots = more male. To me that seems like a very outdated view on straight relationships. If you look around you find a lot more discussion of the issue of the new (straight guy) masculinity and how it is being called into question/threatened by the new emacipated/working/educated women, lots of blabla about how men feel like they have lost their status or their purpose. And if you talk to women it's like a running joke among women that they say their hubands are "their third child", or that men are incapable of making decisions and need women to make them for them, or that men are so sensitive about their masculinity (which they express by acting grumpy and not actually talking about the issue), that they need to have their ego stroked to have the illusion of control in lieu of actual control. (and of course stories of the bafoonish loud husband and the "wise", steering/controlling wife are as old as time; hence some women's attitude to see husbands as lot of hot air with not much behind it and hence feel entitled to overrule whatever the husband wants (wife knows best/he'll eventually come around to seeing I was right), which is what Olli is often accused of;) So Olli's often talked tendency to make unilateral decisions or "be controlling" is actually one thing that has always struck me as his most "wifey" attributes (the way many women run the household, make household decisions from how the home will be renovated, to how the kids will be raised to who will be invited to the next party) and a lot of men lean back and let them do the work. (plus the tendency to always want to be right, even irationally so, strikes me as a very female thing; while most men have by now been coached that it's best to relent and give up the fight; which is why most modern men if they are really unhappy with a situation tend to withdraw (into work, affairs, sitting alone in their cars) rather than fight things out, which in turn strikes me as a very Christian thing, at least the withdrawing part) I think the equation between Chrolli actually fits this stereotype rather well, of Christian as the slightly hapless macho and Olli as the overeager wife. With Christian sometimes feeling lost in "wifey's" decision making. And though he's generally ok with Olli "doing the work" but does start feeling threatened when he feels that Olli threatens his masculinity too openly/directly. (like getting territorial about Rob) I think this fits rather well with his tendency to run to women too (like kissing Miriam, Rebecca (at least two kisses that happened where Olli wasn't there to witness it) or partying with Jessica) to reassert his masculinity. Or to go for women like Rebecca and Theresa in these situation who question him less. (which also fits well with him and Nico having a lot of relationship troubles related to her job and him eventually going for the more sensitive and understanding Coco) To me Christian reads like a guy who is having a hard time letting go of control/his old idea of masculinity (which is more or less what the bio said too) and that's why usually their biggest fights are when he feels that Olli is undermining him too much. He is obviously ok with some, but the point, when it becomes too openly, comes when he balks and friction happens. (another male/female stereotype they fit in rather perfectly if this joke about how men supposedly marry a woman and want her to stay as close to as she was when they met if possible forever (including this young, this beautiful, this well groomed), that they want nothing to change, while women are all about changing the men they pick to fit their desires or expecting their men to evolve with them; <= here too Christian strikes me as the first one who wants things to go back to what they were before but who would probably be much happier if Olli was still as attentive of him as he was at the beginning; meanwhile Olli to me is clearly the second type who not only educated/changed Christian so he could be good as Olli's partner but who now expects Christian to go along with Olli's now changed needs. Again to me fits the stereotype)
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Post by Nasos29 on Oct 8, 2011 16:36:04 GMT -5
But then again lola as you said those behaviors are ''fitting stereotypes'' and we know rather well that stereotypes are not always corresponding to the truth . Often there is significant bias in them
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Post by lolaruns on Oct 9, 2011 1:18:48 GMT -5
That's why I said they are stereotypes I was just pointing out that there are a great deal of stereotypes, particularly modern ones, not just "Women are overemotional and cry all the time" And I would argue that the "men are in control/men make the decisions" stereotype hasn't been current/dominant for a long time (especially in this time period/culture/education level). [which is why a lot of the arguments about Olli to me remind me more of (in the negative) of the nagging/bossy wife stereotype or (in the positive) of the "woman who keeps the family together (and if she checks out everything falls apart)/woman as the emotional center or core" stereotype] I do think that discussing stereotypes has some merits because Chrolli aren't real people who just live their lives, but fictional ones and the writers who write them are influenced by cultural stereotypes just like everybody else is. I know that a lot of people praise Chrolli for being free of stereotypes and clichees*, but I actually don't think that that is the case. They might potentially be free of the really old gay couple stereotypes that exist in some media, but that doesn't mean that they are free from other stereotypes (let's not forget that Chrolli are written by a great variety of writers, which presumably includes all variations of gay/straight/male/female), whether it is stereotypes of modern relationships or stereotypes of soap operas. Personally I don't think that there is one clear line at all for Chrolli (last but not least because they are written by such a large variety of writers, different head writers etc) but that a variety of stereotypes play into this and different stereotypes are in effect during different scenes, different part of the story, different head writers, etc. For example if you take the Rob story there are a variety of story/relationship stereotypes that you could fit there and decide to what degree they apply to this story. Such as: Younger trophy bimbo wife is angry that husband isn't as attentive anymore and sulks, complains to girlfriends and seeks attention elsewhere Wife is jealous that husband works closely with an attractive new cowoker Macho man gets territorial that another alpha male it entering his territory Husband in a dead end job is jealous that wife's job seems to be taking off and had a hard time dealing with not being no 1 anymore Men get aggressive or run off rather than talking productively about their feelings while women deal with it by nagging etc, etc (let's not forget that there is no reason why one has to be "the girl" and the other one has to be "the dude". One can just as well argue that both of them are girly or non-girly or you can argue that in a straight coupling both are girly or non-girly or that the roles are reversed from their natural gender; for example I remember discussions about the beginning of The X-Files that discussed something like this; or Criminal Minds where the main dude in charge of the team is generally considered "the mom" when they discuss the "the team is like a family" metaphor) That said, I still think that that has exactly zero influence on who likes what in bed, after all that is an area that is not specifically being dealt with on the show. (like, it's not like there is a clear line of who is good in bed or not [for example this changes dependant on the story, presumably TanSeb have great fun in bed, except in previous stories Sebastian's love making presumably didn't impress Lydia and Tanja's didn't impress Ansgar; Tristan's love making was apparently enough to completely cloud the judgement of supposedly oh so experienced and around the block Jessica, but it doesn't leave a dent in either Dana or Marlene], who likes what or not) *Some soap stereotypes and clichees that Chrolli have gone through - Straight until I met you person falls in love with the first gay person they become friends with, immediately have a longterm relationship with them and never look at anybody else (this actually fits EVERY single gay storyline on VL; maybe if Deniz has another male lover on AWZ he'll finally break the stereotype for German soaps) - I walk in on you, hear only your last sentence, get the wrong impression and storm off - Women still play a central role for the complication storylines of gay couples on soaps - Soap couples need to provide conflict and breakups after being around for a certain period of time etc, etc, etc
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philos
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Post by philos on Oct 9, 2011 3:53:45 GMT -5
*Some soap stereotypes and clichees that Chrolli have gone through - Straight until I met you person falls in love with the first gay person they become friends with, immediately have a longterm relationship with them and never look at anybody else (this actually fits EVERY single gay storyline on VL; maybe if Deniz has another male lover on AWZ he'll finally break the stereotype for German soaps) - I walk in on you, hear only your last sentence, get the wrong impression and storm off - Women still play a central role for the complication storylines of gay couples on soaps - Soap couples need to provide conflict and breakups after being around for a certain period of time etc, etc, etc Lola, I think your resume of soap stereotypes is perfect; I can add for Chrolli the asynchronicity: when one is ready to talk/forgive, the other is unavailable/angry
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Post by chrischi on Oct 9, 2011 5:14:17 GMT -5
Great posts, lolaruns. I think you're spot on with everything you said.
I had to smile when I was reading the "their third child" part, because that's what my mom says about my dad too lol, and the things you described are exactly what I see when I look at my parents or grand parents. The same goes for the part where you mentioned "that men want nothing to change, while women are all about changing the men they pick to fit their desires or expecting their men to evolve with them". My mom sometimes says, that she didn't educate/bring up my dad good enough ("ich hab deinen Vater einfach nicht gut genug erzogen") and that it's too late now. ;D
Anyway, I think your analysis of Christian and Olli is spot on, also what you said about Chrolli and "free of stereotypes" resp. stereotypes in general.
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Post by lolaruns on Oct 9, 2011 6:21:20 GMT -5
Yeah there are times I think that the kind of things modern women say of men is pretty close to being offensive. Or rather if a man said something equivalent of his wife, that he first had to "groom her", reeducate her on how to be a proper wife etc, then women would be in arms about it, but lots of women talk that way about men all the time. I have met some who kinda put it as "working do undo the damage" done by the man's mother or his previous girlfriends (by teaching him the wrong things). Kinda like they see men as this will-less mold of clay being handed from one woman in his life to the next and being molded by them (I guess the thought is that women emerge from the womb or at least their parents' house perfectly? LOL) The infamous Olli-social services phone call has always struck me as a prime example of this errr vorrausschauendes wife attitude. The person offers him a new foster child - he says no (giving some tribute to Christian's wishes); they ask him whether he wants to stay on the list - he says yes. Because he naturally assumes that Christian will change his mind once the first wave of emotionalism has worn off/he will naturally come around to Olli's POV and then that happens then Olli can magically pull the waiting list position out of his had/then it will be a start advantage to them. Kinda reminds me of a children's book my mother gave my brother's kids called "Little Nick". It was written in the 1960s and one story in it is that the father wants (or by mother logic: thinks he wants ) to go on vacation on the Mediterranean Sea while the mother thinks they should go on vacation to the north sea. Rather than telling him she wants to go to the north sea she keeps making little comments and asking little questions till he slowly comes around to the idea that they should go to the north sea and thinks it's his own idea. By the end of the story it is revealed that she has already picked and pre-ordered their north sea hotel. ;D I think this mind set comes from the fact that despite women working now, women still spend more time within the household than the men and hence are bigger experts on this area. So they have superior knowldedge on a lot of things pertaining to this area and subsequently "win" a lot of fights about this area of life which foisters an "I'm always right" attitude. Men tend to think that these mini arguments are not important (and hence also put in less effort to winning these arguments and in their mind just let the women have the win) and hence don't see it as the woman being right most of the time, while to women those mini fights are of equal weight as any other disagreement, so to them it looks like they are right a lot o the time. Anyway, that's a bit how I see Olli. Basically life has often proven him right/rewarded him when he was pressing on even when people said they didn't want him to (Christian saying he was straight, Christian claiming to be upset about Olli sending in the spot school application, Christian being pissy when Olli told him to get off his butt and find a new job/vocation), he maybe doesn't always see the line between those type of arguments/disagreements and the arguments/disagreements where Christian should have an equal say/where Christian's arguments are actually valid. (like a woman might think that a man doesn't have any useful/valid opinion on what color the carpet should be or even what school the kids should go to, but ideally she would give him a fair chance to express his perferences on the subject of whether they should move to a new city or have another kid) However, this is mostly personality, not necessarily sexuality. Going back to soap stereotypes... VL has had exclusively gay characters. They were introduced as gay, stayed gay all the way through and there was no ambuguity. I find it interesting that here Carla and Tom were both very predjudicial against bi-ness/kinda biphobic. With both and Carla and Tom there existed a clear line/mandate that they were gay only and all the writers, even through different head writers respected that. Both had several same sex partners consecutively. With Tom they even wrote a story of him wanting to have sex with a close female friend to conceive a child and being unable to get it up. With Carla they had a bunch of stories of men who were in love with her (her beard husband Bernd, Susanne's son Paul) but she never had anything other than either friendship or disdain for them. Olli "rings" more gay because he shares a lot of characteristics with those clean cut gay characters like Tom and Carla. Meanwhile with Christian the writer of the original story more or less admitted that even he thought of Christian's turning of keeping the door woman should they want to do another woman story with him in the future and subsequent writers have more often "played" with Christian & woman. Of course on a soap no character, whether gay or straight is ever safe from suddenly being turned in the next story if the writer feels like it, not even the likes of Tom or Carla. But I think with Tom and Carla the line/the mandate was much clearer, while I think Christian is "murky" even to the writers. I think we can take for sure that he is not straight because Olli is still his main permanent character love interest/he hasn't received a permanent female love interest. But at the same time, the fact that he hasn't had any other, non-Olli male love interests and the writers keep playing with him and women shows to me that they see him as murky as opposed to clear cut the way Tom and Carla were.
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vjay
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Post by vjay on Oct 23, 2011 8:58:55 GMT -5
I doubt it will happen, but I would love to see Christian and Andi get together. Andi seems to be more supportive of Christian even though he's know Oliver a bit longer.
The VL writers gave Rebecca and Miriam a lesbian storyline over a year ago but it fell flat. The VL writers also gave Charlie a lesbian storyline a few years ago but that went nowhere.
However, if the VL writers made Andi bisexual and put him in a relationship with Christian I think that has serious potential to be very interesting.
Andi seems to really care about Christian, he always tries to include him in his plans.
If Christian and Andi got together they would have more in common than Christian and Oliver. Since Christian and Andi both are sexually attracted to women.
If Chris and Andi got together it would be a wonderful storyline to explore how men can have sex with men and how they come to terms with their sexuality.
I find the Andi and Helena relationship lacking something I don't know a spark. This Andi, Helena, and the brother love triangle I don't know if that's going to work.
Maybe, the writers can make Andi and Christian have a kiss or have a wild night together? I mean, Christian and Andi both slept with Jessica, perhaps the writers can also say that they slept together too?
There is just something special between Christian and Andi their friendship, they totally seem to "understand" each other very well.
The chemistry that Thore and Dominic have is what pulled me to continue watching the show. Of course, the storyline is also very important too because where I live gay characters don't get time to be developed on television.
In North America, gay characters usually last for perhaps a season and then they are written out of the show. ATWT was good but I have noticed VL treats their gay characters with better respect. The writing isn't perfect but I appreciate that the VL writers allow their gay characters to be flawed people and not perfect role models.
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Post by lolaruns on Oct 31, 2011 13:29:11 GMT -5
Personally, I always thought that the Olli/Andi friendship seemed deeper, there just seems more history there and I feel Andi tends to come to Olli with the more complex problems, like Olli supporting him during the rape story. I feel Andi/Christian had their friendship peak actually back before Chrolli, when Christian was still with Coco. Plus, I think Andi had his "Darn, If only I was gay/If only you were a girl" moment with Olli, way back during Olli's first stint, when he left to work on that cruise ship. Christian/Andi right now seem more like convenience friends right now. They'll hang when their interests overlap, but it doesn't really feel like it means all that much emotionally to each other. Anyway, I don't think that people would really buy Andi as switching teams. Even if lots of people didn't buy him with Helena, Andi has had A LOT of straight pairings on the show and a lot of them were really popular. Plus, he has always been pal with the gay characters, but still always made cracks about being icked out by gay sex to some extent. So I don't buy him as an internalized homophobia guy, because for that he has had too many close friendships with Olli/Tom/Christian. If he was that homophobic he wouldn't be able to do that. Similarly he doesn't work as a "ah, sure, why not, it's all natural/bi all along" guy precisely because of that certain awkwardness. But hey, who wants it, just write a fanfiction
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vjay
Junior Member
Posts: 413
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Post by vjay on Jan 7, 2012 17:07:37 GMT -5
I disagree when Christian and Oliver where having marital problems Andi was on Christian`s side. He supported Christian and he called Oliver out numerous times on his obnoxious behaviour. I think Andi likes both Christian and Oliver as friends but I feel he is closer to Christian. Oliver acts a bit too high and mighty to me he`s like a male Helena.
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Post by lolaruns on Jan 7, 2012 17:19:11 GMT -5
I guess I just see a lot more personal-ness in the Andi/Olli relationship. Like Olli was the one who got to be the supportive friend when Andi dealt with the news of his dad's death. or just recently, the scene where Olli fixes up Andi's face injury after Andi got into a fight with Daniel. I kept thinking that they wrote exactly the same scene basically for Dana/Hagen back when they were still in the flirting stage of the relationship. Olli was also the one on the front lines all the time when Andi dealt with the whole falsely accused of rape mess.
Not saying that Andi and Olli are flirting, I don't think they are. But to me there is just a higher degree of personal-ness. You just feel they are really old, good friends. Christian and Andi are more like bros and guy code. Olli and Andi have real history.
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Post by polkadottie on Jan 9, 2012 20:13:07 GMT -5
(...) I know these are very minor examples, but there have been occasions where Christian has remarked on the attractivenes of other men. Nothing too overt and not in a particularly 'checking them out' or 'tempted by them' kind of way, but there have been a handful. For example when Christian was jealous of Olli's flirting at work he said of the men who flirt with Olli "some of them are even attractive," and he referred to the food critic flirting with Olli as "the good-looking one." ( And I also realize those examples were in reference to guys he felt were hitting on Olli and played into his jealousy, but nevertheless...) Or when Christian and Olli were talking about the 'sexy sports students' and how as long as Christian was in the closet they couldn't steal him from Olli, Christian said "you have no idea how sexy they are." Also, when they were looking at the photos of the guy Charlie left at the altar Christian looked at the picture and said, "Wow, not bad....," and he told the stripper at the bachelor party "that was hot." There may have been a couple of others I'm forgetting. Now, again, I realize these are relatively minor examples and not many of them, and nothing that showed a great attraction to men for Christian, but it's at least an allusion to Christian finding men attractive or that he at least notices men. For whatever that's worth. Wow, angelarose, this is worth a lot! This is an interesting thread - rather academic to that, very impressive! It's been asleep for a while but just because I read it for the first time now I want to take the opportunity to highlight angelarose's post, because I haven't seen it before: A collection of a few signs that Christian is bi - something that has been pretty obvious for me as long as I've followed Chrolli. His terrible background made him put on that macho persona though, as a shield of protection... that some take for a sign of him actually being straight or more interested in women. However, I take it more as support for what Thore himself said that he kind of had Heath Ledger's portrayal of 'Ennis' in Brokeback Mountain in mind when he started forming 'Christian'. Very different decades, yes, but similar souls. All I'm saying is that you don't get enganged and re-married with a guy if you know you prefer women, not even in soap land, so ... duh. Therefore, it it makes me happy to discover angelarose's post. My only addition, off the top of my head, is this scene: Chris, after a drink or two with [Sebastian, is it] and Andi one late night at NL, in an episode from the angsty last summer (?), anyway they all sit in a sofa and C says to S: "Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're a kinda cool guy." Then Sebastian moves away from Christian ever so little, but noticeable, but that doesn't stop Chris from putting his hand on Seb's knee. Seb quickly moves it away. Andi saves the situation by putting his arm around Seb and wink, like "chill dude"... (my god which episode is that scene from...!?)
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philos
Full Member
F?r immer mit dir
Posts: 1,743
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Post by philos on Jan 10, 2012 4:23:10 GMT -5
A collection of a few signs that Christian is bi - something that has been pretty obvious for me as long as I've followed Chrolli. All I'm saying is that you don't get enganged and re-married with a guy if you know you prefer women, not even in soap land, so ... duh. Therefore, it it makes me happy to discover angelarose's post. My only addition, off the top of my head, is this scene: Chris, after a drink or two with [Sebastian, is it] and Andi one late night at NL, in an episode from the angsty last summer (?), anyway they all sit in a sofa and C says to S: "Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're a kinda cool guy." Then Sebastian moves away from Christian ever so little, but noticeable, but that doesn't stop Chris from putting his hand on Seb's knee. Seb quickly moves it away. Andi saves the situation by putting his arm around Seb and wink, like "chill dude"... (my god which episode is that scene from...!?)First of all, I've "cutted" your post, sorry; I agree with a large part of your remarks, also if personally I think Christian is more a gay man who can have sex with a woman, but he likes men. The episode you have mentioned is the one when Tanja is in Majorca, Sebastian discover it at NL and he books immediatly a flight; few days after, they'll marry!
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vjay
Junior Member
Posts: 413
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Post by vjay on Jan 10, 2012 14:03:36 GMT -5
Well I think it is time for the writers to be a bit more explicit about Christian's bisexuality. I get that Christian loves Oliver but the writers need to show that Christian could be tempted by another man. Every time Christian and Oliver have problems is always because some guy is chasing Oliver. However, when are the writers ever going to show another guy chase Christian? I would love to see some guy chase Christian and make Oliver jealous. I think someone that shares Christian interests such as horses, boxing ect. I would love to see Hagen and Christian get together.
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Post by dalphine on Jan 10, 2012 14:29:11 GMT -5
What Hagen really. Christian will never be with another man. JMO
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Post by polkadottie on Jan 10, 2012 16:23:29 GMT -5
vjayAppreciation from another man - yes, please, but only as long as it doesn't lead to anymore full-blown cheating... The writers had their chance of this during the divorce... dalphineSince they're not into open relationships, he doesn't have to now that they're married again. A collection of a few signs that Christian is bi - something that has been pretty obvious for me as long as I've followed Chrolli. All I'm saying is that you don't get enganged and re-married with a guy if you know you prefer women, not even in soap land, so ... duh. Therefore, it it makes me happy to discover angelarose's post. My only addition, off the top of my head, is this scene: Chris, after a drink or two with [Sebastian, is it] and Andi one late night at NL, in an episode from the angsty last summer (?), anyway they all sit in a sofa and C says to S: "Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're a kinda cool guy." Then Sebastian moves away from Christian ever so little, but noticeable, but that doesn't stop Chris from putting his hand on Seb's knee. Seb quickly moves it away. Andi saves the situation by putting his arm around Seb and wink, like "chill dude"... (my god which episode is that scene from...!?)First of all, I've "cutted" your post, sorry; I agree with a large part of your remarks, also if personally I think Christian is more a gay man who can have sex with a woman, but he likes men. The episode you have mentioned is the one when Tanja is in Majorca, Sebastian discover it at NL and he books immediatly a flight; few days after, they'll marry! Thanks philos, it's ok. Right! He missed the flight.
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