philos
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Post by philos on Jul 11, 2011 17:27:43 GMT -5
teachgirl, do you remember the result of the charity auction? In the past Olli was receiving attention by men and women, the problem is the incredible change done just now! I can assure you that if I should meet Olli as single, my boyfrend have to be worried!
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Post by canadiansunshine on Jul 12, 2011 1:47:52 GMT -5
Very interesting discussion. I don't know if sexuality has a percentage per se. Like Olli or Christian being 100% gay and just "dabbled" in females to deny their true preferences. I mean, I KNOW there are gay guys who slept with women before they came out (married, have kids, etc) but who were in great denial. But after coming out and acknowledging themselves as gay? I dunno...after declaring oneself, why would one pick someone they are not attracted to in the least? There was a funny situation with my friends-a girlfriend was having her birthday party at a raunchy burlesque show-boobs, legs g-strings, everything was shown except for the "privates". So most of the party of 15 were straight women, with 1 straight guy, and 3 gay guys, two of whom are a gorgeous couple. As the entertainers were taking off their clothes and dancing and gyrating around in basically no clothes, one girl turned to one member of the couple and jokingly grinded in front of him and said, "C'mon, isn't this doing ANYTHING for you? Can't you turn for this?" and he gave her a look and said, "Sorry, nothing's happening. These girls just don't have the right equipment to get anything up for me!" The women onstage did nothing for him sexually. I mean, I guess if he forced himself to, he maybe would have sex with a girl, but why the heck would he if guys are the ones that do it for him? That's why I have a hard time buying that Christian is gay and is just falling back to what's familiar. It may have been familiar BEFORE he met Olli, but if in the process he realized all his previous relationships with women were forced and a way to cover up his true sexuality, I cannot fathom why he would do that again once he is out. And seriously, Christian did not seem like he was forcing anything. What point is he trying to prove by making himself have sex with girls again? To repress his sexuality again and go back into the closet? I don't think so... Both men and women turn Christian on and can get him up. I don't buy that he is Olli-sexual, that it was only Olli that turned him on and if it wasn't for Olli he'd be back to women. Maybe all it takes is another amazing guy for Christian to fall for him. Or an amazing girl. And Olli being ok with Christian cheating if it were with a guy...yeeps. Cheating is cheating. However, I can understand Olli just feeling defeated that he just doesn't have what he feels Christian is attracted to-and that is a woman with female bits. How can he not, after every person Christian has cheated on him with is female. Another friend of mine is unabashedly bisexual. No qualifiers, no apologies, she's attracted to both. She's been in relationships with men, who satisfied her for a time, and she is attracted to females as well. After she broke up with a guy, she pursued her current girlfriend hard, and now they are in a solid long term relationship. That doesn't mean she's a lesbian now. She has leanings towards women, but she has/has had sex with both and would do so in the future if her relationship broke apart. That doesn't make her a cheater, or more inclined to cheat. She's in a solid, loving committed relationship with someone she loves. She may have a wider pool to choose from in terms of dating, but in the end it's the individual. I think Olli and Christian are both bisexual. They have both had sex with women readily when they already came out and there were no reasons for "beards" or "cover-ups". They were attracted to them and had pretty passionate sex with them (heck that old scene when Olli and Jule were getting it on was pretty hot and heavy!). Olli probably leans more to men, while Christian, with the exception of Olli, leans more towards women. and there's NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. What is wrong is if you are constantly dishonest with your partner about it, and constantly cheat on him with it! A commitment is a commitment, and if you break your commitment, you have deal with the consequences, including your partner doubting your attraction to him as a person and as a man. Some would say too, that women have more bisexual leanings than men. Can you imagine a bunch of straight guys getting together to watch a male strip show for a birthday party? Or that the majority of people in the audience for a male strip show were straight guys? NOT! I mean, the majority of the audience at the burlesque show were women. Women don't seem to have a problem with saying another woman's got nice boobs, ass or legs, but I haven't heard many guys stuff like that about other guys Anyways, rambled on enough.
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bel7003
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Post by bel7003 on Jul 12, 2011 2:17:29 GMT -5
Philos, I understand exactly what you are saying and totally agree with you. These writers really need to get a clue. But even if Olli is completely uninterested in women, why do women now (not talking about Coco or Rebecca in the past) not hit on him? I know that Christian mentioned that time when he was jealous of the food critic that both women and men flirt with Olli, but the writers have never actually shown us this. Olli is so charming and so nice to women, it just seems ridiculous that Christian draws them like flies to honey and Olli doesn't. Well, there's an old Portuguese saying that's something like this: we like men who are ugly, mean and smelling like horses. (sorry for the poor translation, but I think you can get the general idea). Christian isn't exactly mean and he definitely isn't ugly. So, maybe it's the smell. ;D ;D
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gabyta07
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Post by gabyta07 on Jul 16, 2011 18:54:45 GMT -5
So retaking our conversation Do you think Chrolli is heterosexualized? A friend of mine said it, he said that Olli was sooo femenine that he could be taken away and be replaced by a woman Do you think this is true? ?
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philos
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Post by philos on Jul 16, 2011 19:24:44 GMT -5
ok, i'll repeat: for me Olli is NOT effeminate. He's a gorgeus and sensible gay man that like fun; and it will be a big big error if someone of writers will try to reverse him to hetero or also bisexuality. Gay guys can be sometimes funny (me too), but that doesn't mean that they are effeminate. and about Chrolli, it's a no-sense; without Chris and Olli how can exist Chrolli? I've started a discussion about roles in this couple because I was trying to understand what happens and I was so scared that this crazy thing was the only reason because Chris could act as now, but now I must explain better my feeling: in my personal experience (and I have tried pratically all during the last 20 years ) I meet few guys that didn't care about who to f@çk, for them an hole is an hole; but in this case it's only sex, no kiss, no tenderly, no emotions and no relationship. And they were always top. Other guys were married or with a girlfriend and they looked for sex; in this case, 99% of times they enjoyed all (hoping you don't need a list of...), with a preference of course. lot of times, after a period they left the wifes and started a relationship with a men (do you remember someone?). what is the case of our beloved (my opinion, naturally)? Olli: after a start with girls, now he's completely for boys and he likes to do all with his partner. Christian: no Olli-sexual, no pan-sexual, simply bisexual with a preference for boys. About sex, he tried all and maybe he prefers to be top, but I'm not sure. So, why should Christian have sex with women? sorry, but which gay man have you see in VL except Olli during the last 3 years? He doesn't know other gays and it's easy to be seduced by a girl around him! what do you think about ? is it only my wish because I want Chrolli back?
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gabyta07
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Post by gabyta07 on Jul 16, 2011 20:23:00 GMT -5
The thing is, that my friend is not an ignorant heterosexual or so. He is a gay man....probably an ignorant gay man? I dont know maybe the problem with communities, and Im not just talking about gay community, Im talking about the hippy community, the freaky community and so, they dont like it when they appear in tv. I mean when I watch USA tv, an a mexican appears, I really dont like it, bc its full of stereotypes, which the majority of them are not true, and we feel like they are mocking us. Maybe is the same for my friend when he watches Chrolli, maybe he doesnt feel identify bc he feels that effeminate guy is not a gay guy but a "marica" like mitsaso kindly put it. Now IMO I think Olli is totally gay, for me to be gay, you dont only have to be sexually attracted but to feel also an emotional connection. An Olli might have felt attracted to women, but I dont think he ever felt that emotional connection he had with Tom and has with Christian. I have no idea what sexual orientation Christian has, the only thing I know is that he has an emotional connection with Olli and feels sexually attracted to him since he met him. I really dont believe in pansexualism, but it seems the writers are making him that way, I really wish I can be wrong...the same thing with Olli-sexual. For me thats BS, I dont find it romantic at all, but for me is like lying to yourself, and denying a part of you, and not real at ALL. But lets pretend Christian is gay or bisexual, why does he has sex with woman. Maybe he is gay, but for him a woman is just a hole, he doesnt have an emotional connection to them, he finds them attractive. But a woman is so easy bc there are no strings attached, at all. Or maybe he is bisexual, he is returning to women, bc is where he feels confortable, Im not saying he didnt feel comfortable, Im saying that, being with women, was something he was use to, is not something unknown like being with a man, he knows women, knows he can get what he wants from them, so why not return to something that is easy. Why do I feel like I just insulted myself? ;D Anyhow, Olli and Christian will get back together, we only have to be patient
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 16, 2011 22:59:45 GMT -5
To me, that factor makes it non-exclusive-gay. I don't think that it matters whether you don't have an emotional connection with them, if you find them attractive, if there is a "pull" that means that you are less than 100% from the other side (that's why those "have sex with guys in bathrooms" republicans are also not straight to me) even if you are never going to have a fullfilling relationship with him (and I would still argue that Nico and Coco back in the days* were more than holes for Christian).
Isn't the typical exactly the other way around? Gay man who can have emotional relationships with their f*ghag female friends (especially when no man is available) but there is just no attraction there?
Personally I find it easier to buy that Christian is just not visually attracted to men (this would explain why he is never checking any out and why according to him it had genuinely never occured to him before Olli that he might be gay). He could still be gay or men-leaning bisexual (as in prefering both the sex and prefering men emotionally), he just doesn't have "the eye" for it. I know it's super rare for men to not be primarily visually wired, but I have occasionally met some.
IMO if the writing wanted to drive home that Christian has sex with women but is not attracted to them, then they should have had him sex with a woman who is neutrally unattractive, if all Christian is looking for is comfort and a hole. [Yes I know some here find Theresa mannish and unattractive but apparently she has quite the pull with male straight fans on the German boards (who actually get into a lot of arguments with the female fans who just don't see it. must be one of those secret undercurrent vibes things that speaks directly to straight guys).]
*To me Coco and Nico were also sort of flipside to each other. Christian and Nico got together almost immediately, after just a handful of episodes. They really barely knew each other so it's hard for me to see it as anything but some sort of attraction since you really can't argue that they had such a deep relationship with each other initially. While Coco was the one he had the deep talks, lots in common, doing nice things for you relationship where he didn't realize the attraction (but still fought with her or was jealous of her and Gregor).
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philos
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Post by philos on Jul 17, 2011 4:36:06 GMT -5
The thing is, that my friend is not an ignorant heterosexual or so. He is a gay man....probably an ignorant gay man? I dont know maybe the problem with communities, and Im not just talking about gay community, Im talking about the hippy community, the freaky community and so, they dont like it when they appear in tv. I mean when I watch USA tv, an a mexican appears, I really dont like it, bc its full of stereotypes, which the majority of them are not true, and we feel like they are mocking us. Maybe is the same for my friend when he watches Chrolli, maybe he doesnt feel identify bc he feels that effeminate guy is not a gay guy but a "marica" like mitsaso kindly put it. gaby, naturally each people can have a different feeling for a story or a caracter; I'm not saying your friend is ignorant, we see this aspect differently. Maybe because he's american (right?) and i'm european, one of the main reason for me to follow Chrolli is that they are realistic. Of course, it's a soap with some incredible happening, but the relationship between the two guys was absolutely true before may 2011. And yes, I don't like too stereotypes; it can be funny to see Jack from Will & Grace, but it'a a sit-com and sometimes also excessive. I like a lot more Karen, by the way About the rest of the topic, I agree with you; and the Hope is always in!
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 17, 2011 5:08:35 GMT -5
Maybe your friend would like that Lalo and Manuel storyline.
I do think that outside of a few moments (like when he is fangirling Luise or stuff like that) Olli is not what an European would consider super-mincing. Yes he is more than Christian and yes people probably perceive him more as the typical gay [but hand in hand with that comes the accusation some general viewers have that Christian doesn't really seem very convincing as gay/never really acts all that gay] but he is still I think a very regular guy and friend.
BTW, I think basing one's theories on yaoi is always a bad idea based on what I have heard on the non-existant realism in those stories regarding sex and sexuality ;D
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Post by sonia38 on Jul 17, 2011 9:12:10 GMT -5
This I don't get at all, what does never act gay means? I know a lot of gay men that work on my job and one would never know that they were unless you were privy to that information. Then there are a few that you can tell right away because of their mannerisms. So Christian acting they way he does as a macho man is quite OK because there are plenty of macho men out there who are so gay but you still can't see that they are and would be shocked when you find out.
What does Christian have to do for people to believe he's gay, were a pink top and yellow pants with white shoes, ogle every guy that he comes in contact with, I'm just trying to understand what people are looking for.
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Post by teachgirl on Jul 17, 2011 9:22:40 GMT -5
This I don't get at all, what does never act gay means? I know a lot of gay men that work on my job and one would never know that they were unless you were privy to that information. Then there are a few that you can tell right away because of their mannerisms. So Christian acting they way he does as a macho man is quite OK because there are plenty of macho men out there who are so gay but you still can't see that they are and would be shocked when you find out. What does Christian have to do for people to believe he's gay, were a pink top and yellow pants with white shoes, ogle every guy that he comes in contact with, I'm just trying to understand what people are looking for. In some interview, didn't Jo and Thore say something with almost those exact words, that they didn't want to portray some stereotype of two guys running around in pink panties? They wanted to show exactly what you said about your gay colleagues, that gay people are not always instantly identifiable, that they have regular lives like everyone else.
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philos
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Post by philos on Jul 17, 2011 11:50:55 GMT -5
Teachgirl, I totally agree with you and them! Nobody knows about me if I don't want to say it and normally I'm not hiding my life; simply, it's my private life and I'm not speaking about all the time. the only exception can be other gays because it's true, we are more attentives to little particulars and in the 60-70% of cases we recognise the members of our team
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 17, 2011 14:36:36 GMT -5
Beats me what they want. Maybe they think he changed too little compared to before? Or that he doesn't look as enthusiastic in certain scenes as he should be? I remember the complaints early in the story that Christian was no initiating enough but IMO by the time the Rob story rolled around (and the period leading up to it) it always seemed fairly mutual to me at that point.
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pru
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Post by pru on Jul 17, 2011 14:51:39 GMT -5
To me it is just nonsense.
I get that sometimes there are gay men who when seen on sight you just know they are gay because of their mannerisms and how they carry themselves.
Thus leading to the stereotype of gay men that alot of straight people have in their heads, that is why when they meet a "regular" guy or find out he is in fact homosexual it just does not compute in their brains.
To which I have dubbed it their "ROCK HUDSON" moment. Because when people found out that Rock Hudson was gay, only because he got AIDS in the early 80s, they just could not grasp it.
Because until then he was just a talented, handsome, and amazing actor. Not a man who just happened to love other men.
My mother had her "Rock Hudson" last week when I informed her that the actor who plays Neal Cafferty on White Collar, Matt Boomer is gay. She was like but he is so cute with his pretty blue eyes, and I was like HE STILL IS! He is just in love with a guy instead of a woman.
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Post by sonia38 on Jul 17, 2011 17:06:42 GMT -5
See Pru, that's what I mean. when I found out Rock Hudson was gay I was taken aback myself, I had no idea all I saw was the macho man who romanced Doris Day is all those lovely comedies and who played the tough Police Commissioner on McMillan and Wife (I loved that old show, by the way). So Christian being the way he is don't phase me one bit because you can never tell most of the time who's gay and who's not.
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pru
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Post by pru on Jul 17, 2011 18:06:12 GMT -5
Exactly, sonia.
That's why when others try and act like they know who is gay or how someone who is gay should act it annoys me.
There is no manual with a chapter detailing the signs you need to look for in order to spot a gay person. To me it is insulting. Like being gay is a disease you catch instead of just being something you are.
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philos
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Post by philos on Jul 17, 2011 18:22:18 GMT -5
ahahahah, ;D ;D ;D pru and sonia, you make me laugh! As a gay man, I'm absolutely with you; the topic in this case is what we can understand from a video about the sexuality of two characters. Naturally if they were played stereotipically, no way to discuss; the strength of Chrolli is the absence of mannerism, so we must try to analize sentence, looks (sarà corretto per sguardi?), behavior. And in any case we must be confident in the wonderful job of acting of Jo and Thore; a couple of actors less talented couldn't realize the perfect feeling that they have. So please don't be too rude if someone is proposing a "funny" interpretation
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pru
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Post by pru on Jul 17, 2011 18:28:54 GMT -5
I have no problem with someone proposing a funny interpretation because there are some gay men who act that way. But the point I'm trying to make is not all of them do so the stereotype bs really needs to stop.
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gabyta07
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Post by gabyta07 on Jul 17, 2011 21:36:49 GMT -5
But I think the problem is that many ppl see sterotypes even where they arent or so, like my friend, he just took a glimpse to Chrolli and decided that they were heterosexualized. Its like when I watched Harry Potter movie, and critize every little mistake they made or changed from the books, even thou they did a fairly good job puttin a 800 pages book into a movie of 4 hours.
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shiyo
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Post by shiyo on Jul 17, 2011 21:46:36 GMT -5
What I think some people see in Olli as overtly gay to me is a European man, sexual orientation secondary. There is a definite difference between how men from the USA act versus those from Europe, with regard to how they dress, how affectionate they are with men, how steeped into culture (languages, art, cinema) they are that some Americans can confuse for homosexuality.
I guess because Americans (and Latin countries) are so obsessed with macho men and very strict gender guidelines that it can seem confusing. I remember when the whole concept of "Bromance" blew up here a couple of years ago when Judd Apatow made a bunch of movies where guys were portrayed as the type who just hang out, talk, eat, discuss feelings and it was on the cover of every Time/Newsweek type magazine. It was such an eye opener to certain people.
However, seeing my male cousins who are not American be extremely affectionate, kissing goodbye, hugging, being comfortable with a level of nudity that goes past the whole male locker room concept was extremely foreign to me the first time. It was not something I had ever seen before, ever!! In high school and college one can get beaten up for that kind of behavior even when it is completely innocent.
Even all the conversations we had about those deep V-neck T-shirts is something I see as more European than American, although now I see those shirts everywhere worn by gay and straight men. But I live in Los Angeles, someone in Boise, Idaho will not see a T shirt like that and have any doubts about the sexual orientation of the man wearing it.
Chrolli is watched by an international audience that include many many Americans! So I can see why Olli is seen as a typical gay stereotype here, although I dont think he is seen that way everywhere.
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Post by dalphine on Jul 17, 2011 23:38:25 GMT -5
Shiyo...I very much agree with your post.
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pru
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Post by pru on Jul 18, 2011 0:59:27 GMT -5
Great post, shiyo.
And it never crossed my mind that Olli seemed gay at all.
All I saw was a beautiful man who just happened to be in love with another man.
I also don't see any supposed characteristics that make him gay so when I read that others family or friends see him that way it just goes over my head, and makes no sense to me.
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gabyta07
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Post by gabyta07 on Jul 18, 2011 1:15:42 GMT -5
Great post, shiyo. And it never crossed my mind that Olli seemed gay at all. All I saw was a beautiful man who just happened to be in love with another man. I also don't see any supposed characteristics that make him gay so when I read that others family or friends see him that way it just goes over my head, and makes no sense to me. In that regard I agree with you shiyo....it really confused me and bewildered me when my friend said they were heterosexualized. I never expected that!!!!!!
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philos
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Post by philos on Jul 18, 2011 2:24:05 GMT -5
What I think some people see in Olli as overtly gay to me is a European man, sexual orientation secondary. There is a definite difference between how men from the USA act versus those from Europe, with regard to how they dress, how affectionate they are with men, how steeped into culture (languages, art, cinema) they are that some Americans can confuse for homosexuality. Hi shiyo, have you read my mind? this is exactly my point of view. The only remarks are that latin-american can be obsessed by, not Latin in general; I'm Italian, with a lot of Spanish, French, German friends and I can't see a difference. And, as I said, other gay men can normally understand it making attention on details. Naturally, don't suppose that all gays are similar; a lot of as like sport, trekking, rude act, fighting etc. We are humans as all others. uff, I'm talking by stereotipics another time!
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pru
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Post by pru on Jul 18, 2011 11:00:48 GMT -5
To me it would just be simplier just to say there are different categories of gay men like there are different categories of straight men.
Examples:
Jocks
Nerds
Metrosexual
Strong silent type
The sensitive caring type
Macho type
The Asshole/Jerk type.
And I could go on.
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