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Post by lolaruns on Jul 10, 2011 14:05:47 GMT -5
I dunno. I like to think Christian would be unhappy without Olli regardless if his relationships after that were with men or women But that's just my romantic idealism ;D I could see him be a bit yearnful for other guys, but I agree I find it rather hard to picture him in a full relationship with a guy after Olli. I'm no expert but I think I have read some articles which argued that the Kinsay scale idea is a bit outdated/might have been a bit overtly optimistic on Kinsey's side. I think obviously it's a good tool because I think a lot of people can identify with placing themselves there, but I have read that supposedly some stories that measure actual arousal reactions as opposed to self identification for example suggest that men on the large are either/or while most women have bisexual arousal patterns (show arousal for both male and female pictures) even if they self-identify as exclusively straight or exclusively lesbian. But of course there are also suggestions that arousal patterns might be pretty much crap especially for women because there are scientists who think that for women self-lubrication for example is more a tool of protection (that for example might also kick in during rape simply to ensure less damage happens to the body). I've been thinking about the issue of sleeping with somebody you have no sexual attraction for (like some people noted about gay men having had relationships or even many years of marriage with children and all before coming out) and I wondered what the straight guy equivalent would be. Like for example aggressive males in prison. Though I guess I do think it's possible that there might be guys who are genuinely attracted to women on the outside but might have had sex with men in prison (I mean as the aggressor or willing participant, not as a rape victim), but at the same time there are also plenty of men who go to prison and never have sex with other men there. So what's the difference between a guy who would sex have with the gender he's not attracted to if no other options are there and a guy who wouldn't even if in a situation like this? [similarly porn stars who would perform with partners of the not desired sex vs. porn stars who would reject jobs like that in an identical situation] Does type B just have more active relvulsion in addition to having passively no attraction? OK, officially trailing off topic here Did DeRo and Cenny really have any gay friends? I know Nuke had some but generally I think it's a rather widespread phenomenon among same sex soap couples.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 10, 2011 14:13:20 GMT -5
I'm no expert on gay/bi/whatever but one thing I really liked was one reply in a bisexuality column where the poster said (paraphrasing here) that people asks her whether she is more male or more female leaning all the time and her answer is always she doesn't know/it depends. Basically there are days where she's horny for guys and days where she's horny for girls. (again horribly paraphrasing but that's the gist I got, that yeah it might depend on the mood or whatever, that there are days where she is 90% girls and days where she's 90% guys and days where she's 70% girls and days where she's 45% girls) Wow.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 10, 2011 14:26:43 GMT -5
I'm no expert on gay/bi/whatever but one thing I really liked was one reply in a bisexuality column where the poster said (paraphrasing here) that people asks her whether she is more male or more female leaning all the time and her answer is always she doesn't know/it depends. Basically there are days where she's horny for guys and days where she's horny for girls. (again horribly paraphrasing but that's the gist I got, that yeah it might depend on the mood or whatever, that there are days where she is 90% girls and days where she's 90% guys and days where she's 70% girls and days where she's 45% girls) Wow. I might be grossly misrepresenting the post. But it did basically argue that at least for this poster it was impossible to boil it down to a percentage. BTW, I really rather like the AfterElton Snails and Oysters column, especially the comment sections after the columns which generally has a lot of interesting discussion and anectdotal stories: www.afterelton.com/columns/snails_%2526_oysters
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 10, 2011 14:47:48 GMT -5
Did DeRo and Cenny really have any gay friends? I know Nuke had some but generally I think it's a rather widespread phenomenon among same sex soap couples. I can't speak about Cenny (didn't follow that pairing), but for Nuke, they only had "background gay friends" for one time: the June Pride episode w/Cyndi Lauper in 2008 or 2009 and Jackson had some friends, in the beginning of his relationship with Aaron on Emmerdale. Sadly it IS a soap opera phenomenon that gay couples hardly ever hang out with OTHER gay pals friends. The shows don't seem to think those potential friends are "necessary" for those characters storylines, which again completely isolates those characters and what the show can do for them. It's like the total opposite of "Queer as Folk". I remember complaining about how strange I found it that the main characters NEVER associated with straights (who weren't bigoted co-workers or naive females), in their lives. It's a conscious choice by the Executive Producers and it seems it's the same with soaps. Like, if a new gay/bi guy is going to be introduced, he's seen as a "big ass threat" to the gay pairing all the time (even when one half of that pairing is currently being written as a cheater, abusive asshole, judgemental jerk and/or "confused" by what and who they want in their life). It's like all these particulars have to be thought about first, before a new gay/bi character can be introduced, especially if that character has no baggage about their sexuality and they're already out.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 10, 2011 15:08:15 GMT -5
Wasn't there a guy named Reg and his boyfriend who invited Nuke to a hottub weekend? I only remember because the reviewer who did the AE reviews had a thing for him. And didn't Luke try to organize something gay themed in college? Surely there must have been some gay students there.
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Trish
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Post by Trish on Jul 10, 2011 15:29:17 GMT -5
Yes Reg was a friend of Luke's. He was dating a guy named Tony at the time, who kind of fancied Noah. Reg showed up periodically until they killed him off. There were random gay players that showed up. Like when Nuke was looking for an apartment, but nothing on a regular bases. At leas there was no real woman threat to the relationship.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 10, 2011 15:37:41 GMT -5
Wasn't there a guy named Reg and his boyfriend who invited Nuke to a hottub weekend? I only remember because the reviewer who did the AE reviews had a thing for him. And didn't Luke try to organize something gay themed in college? Surely there must have been some gay students there. Yes, I can't recall Reg's boyfriend's name, but the hottub incident. Yes, NUKE were invited for the weekend, but since NUKE were "blushing" schoolboys, they decided not to go and stay at the farm. Even though they could have gone and NOT do a "nasty gay sexual orgy stuff" if they were asked. Reg, who had broken up with his boyfriend, was used sporadically for different NUKE based storylines throughout the years. He's written to be Luke's friend and was killed off (I think in 2009, in the "Twisted Twins" storyline). I think. That time's very hazy for me, because I just couldn't believe what new unbelievably boring bullshit they had come up with AGAIN to NOT break up NUKE for the umpteenth time.
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Post by jjose712 on Jul 10, 2011 15:38:59 GMT -5
Nuke had several gay friends, but with the exception of Reg, most of them were in only a couple of episodes (but Nuke screentime was scarse so it's difficult their gay friends have any).
Sorry but the "i only go gay for you" in my opinion is just a lame excuse, i didn't buy it with Craig on Hollyoaks, and i didn't buy it here. First it's a mistake introduce a gay character only to fill time till Cholli reunites. This is a soap, there must be some surprises and Olli can have one or two relationships before even thinkin in come back with Christian. Right now a reunion is just not an option, i know their fan base will be more than happy with that, but Nuke become boring as hell because ATWT writers didn't have the guts to tell an interesting storyline nor to break up them because they was afraid of complaints, and we all know what happens, after years of boring storylines they decided an end that didn't please anyone. The random gay character, someone who appears from time to time, could be very useful. At least Christian could cheat on Olli with a man for a change. I don't know if this has any solution, it's pretty obvious that the writers are not exactly brilliant, because if you want a supercouple to break up, there are a lot of better ways than a boring storyline and making unlikeable both main characters
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 10, 2011 15:39:49 GMT -5
Yeah Nuke definitely went through a lot of bullshit. But I did think that they did slightly better than average in the gay dayplayers area and in Nuke getting involved in gay issues without it immediately being a drama storyline (like Chrolli and "homophobia in boxing!!!").
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Post by sonia38 on Jul 10, 2011 15:46:27 GMT -5
I read the Snails & Oysters: Dan Savage is Biphobic that lolaruns posted and I have to say that Everyone has their own beliefs but I totally agree with Dan on the subject.
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Post by jjose712 on Jul 10, 2011 15:49:24 GMT -5
I think Nuke survive because Jake and Van had very good chemistry, and Van had the ability to make likeable a character that in other hands could be very annoying. The storyline has a lot of flaws, and no one of their storylines was as better as Chrolli first year, but from time to time they have a nice couple of episodes. I think the main problem with Chrolli is that they were really good at the begining, yes, the first storyline has it's flaws (this is a soap) but it was very good for soap standards, and now is very difficult to get used to this very very low level. And the main problem is not only the bad storyline, is that they make Christian and Olli act like complete idiots only for plot driven purposes, and if they continue that way, most people will lose interest in the characters or in they as a couple. I know soaps are based on romance, but a non romance storyline is complete necessary from time to time. Without a funny or a mistery storyline from time to time you can't make an old time couple interesting, because if you only focus on they as a couple, that means you need to introduce angst and drama all the time, and that ends being tiresome (a good example is Emmerdale, Aaron and Jackson as a couple were so so, i don't buy their chemistry or their affection scenes, but both were good actors and shine in the drama scenes, the problem was that for months only was drama and more and more drama, and that ends being depressing no matter how good the drama was). As i say, the problem is that Cholli were very good in the past, and now is very difficult to get used to this bad
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 10, 2011 15:51:31 GMT -5
Personally I think the "Debunking 4 Myths about Bisexuality" is more interesting Even though I don't agree with anything he says there either. I think the problem is that Chrolli or rather the structure the fans want from Chrolli is just deeply unnatural for VL. VL just doesn't do longterm couples. I think people are kinda used to those American soaps like Days of Our Lives where couples are around for 20 years and Bo and Hope went on funny adventures together with devil posessions and ice rays and stuff like that. But that's not VL. VL doesn't really do mystery stories for couples. On VL there is exactly one way to be happy, in off screen land, Gregor and Luise style. Notice how VL doesn't even have those typical kindly old people who have been together forever? Even the Arno/Elisabeth/Ludwig generation sleeps around and cheats on each other. Everything that is happening now just prolongs the inevitable. That eventually people will have to choose between Chrolli being together/happy and Jo/Thore having a job.
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Post by jjose712 on Jul 10, 2011 16:54:50 GMT -5
Well, i only followed their storyline so i don't know how the show works, but if they only focus on romance and couples they are doomed. If this is all that they can bring, it could be better if they give Christian and only another romantic partners for a while, maybe is not a popular opinion, but at least that would bring us something watchable, and in my opinion is far better than Olli whining and Christian cheating with every woman he met. This is a really bad year for gays in soaps, the death rates are incredibly high, and fans are not very happy with most of storylines. In my opinion is not that difficult to write a decent soap storyline, but you must follow two simple rules, you can give fans all that they want (and this is specially true with gay couples) but you can't totally ignore the fans either, if you write a storyline that will make fans complaint and complaint, better be good and with a clear purpose
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mitsaso
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Post by mitsaso on Jul 10, 2011 18:06:56 GMT -5
LolaRuns, thanks for bringing up those comments from Jo and Tom about the characters and bisexuality. It does seem like the show and the writers haven't thought that Olli could be allowed to fall in love with a woman (if things don't work out with Christian OR if Thore leaves the show). The character of Christian has that option. I just don't understand why the possibility of adding another gay/bi male character(s) PERMENTELY isn't considered. Tons of straight characters, but there can ONLY BE two gay/bi characters and they're always paired off together. Well, they used to have Carla and Stella back then, at the same time as Chrolli. But for MORE male gay/bi characters? I dunno. With Glee having three gay characters (Kurt/Blaine/Karofsky), not to mention two bi/lesbian girls (Santana/Brittany), there have already been complaints that the show is "too gay". Even I, a gay man, find myself perplexed by Glee at times. But it's probably because I still can't believe there's an A-list popular show with 5 GLBT characters out there. A nice thought would be to include more gay male side characters that occasionaly hang out with Chrolli, they don't need to have much more exposure than Miriam (ALSO a GLBT character!). Maybe they can turn Niklas gay? Because I know Luka is straight...
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 10, 2011 18:55:19 GMT -5
Well, i only followed their storyline so i don't know how the show works, but if they only focus on romance and couples they are doomed. If this is all that they can bring, it could be better if they give Christian and only another romantic partners for a while, maybe is not a popular opinion, but at least that would bring us something watchable, and in my opinion is far better than Olli whining and Christian cheating with every woman he met. I agree. I think it would also help to NOT show/write and/or want the gay characters treated as like they're special snowflakes* that need to be shown as examples of how "real" gays behave. They need to be able to screw up, make mistakes, move on with others and MAYBE, if the show wants them to, reunite in a way that makes what they initially went through WORTH the reunion. I've NO problem with characters cheating on soaps. It happens to the straight characters ALL THE TIME and those characters are allowed to either move on with new characters (for a while), wallow in pity, seek revenge and/or reunite after more than a two month timeframe OR sadly, they're written off. Why can't it happen for the gay characters? And why is it deemed "preferrable" to have the gay characters treated as "separate and NOT equal" by some of the fandom? *The idea that fictional gay characters/pairings are so incredibly rare, that they've got to be kept from being written and portrayed just as their straight counterparts. I mean, Christian's kissed 3 different women, had drunken blackout threeway sex (which some folks don't believe is true) & has had "sexy fun times" (more than once) with his female co-worker, while Olli's been written as mostly faithful (Rob's the one who initiated the kiss, while Olli ended it) to Christian, from the moment he started having feelings for him. I WANT Olli to just be able to not have to be seen as the "loyal, faithful and ever trusting loving man" during this time
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philos
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Post by philos on Jul 11, 2011 8:07:56 GMT -5
Interesting thread... So, naturally this is only my opinion, based on personal experience, but the situation of our heroes is: - Olli is definitively gay; he started with girls, but his feeling is completely for boys
- Cristian is more "variable", but mainly gay; girls can be see as "easy sex" for him.
- And yes, they are still in love; but is it sufficent?
Why I'm thinking in this way? Olli was presented as bi at the beginning, but from 2007 is completely for men; he can be so sweet and friendly with girls, but when one proposed him sex (not love), he was scared. And please, no chance for Christian to switch totally to girls after 3 years of love with Olli. Maybe he could flirt or have sex with women still preferring men; remember that Chris is meeting only straight men, so he's receiving proposal only by women. Or I was wrong: in one case maybe the worst scenario could happen, but I cannot explain better my argument here Ok, I know: I'm stupid a lot. But I'm crazy for the guys.
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Post by teachgirl on Jul 11, 2011 10:05:31 GMT -5
Interesting thread... So, naturally this is only my opinion, based on personal experience, but the situation of our heroes is: - Olli is definitively gay; he started with girls, but his feeling is completely for boys
- Cristian is more "variable", but mainly gay; girls can be see as "easy sex" for him.
- And yes, they are still in love; but is it sufficent?
Why I'm thinking in this way? Olli was presented as bi at the beginning, but from 2007 is completely for men; he can be so sweet and friendly with girls, but when one proposed him sex (not love), he was scared. And please, no chance for Christian to switch totally to girls after 3 years of love with Olli. Maybe he could flirt or have sex with women still preferring men; remember that Chris is meeting only straight men, so he's receiving proposal only by women. Or I was wrong: in one case maybe the worst scenario could happen, but I cannot explain better my argument here Ok, I know: I'm stupid a lot. But I'm crazy for the guys. Hi, philos. Welcome. And your point is definitely not stupid! When you say Olli was scared when a woman proposed sex, are you referring to when one of the lesbian women said they preferred the "natural" way rather than artificial insemination? If so, I think that scene, and Olli's nervousness, was played for laughs.
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bel7003
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Post by bel7003 on Jul 11, 2011 10:24:01 GMT -5
Interesting thread... So, naturally this is only my opinion, based on personal experience, but the situation of our heroes is: - Olli is definitively gay; he started with girls, but his feeling is completely for boys
- Cristian is more "variable", but mainly gay; girls can be see as "easy sex" for him.
- And yes, they are still in love; but is it sufficent?
Why I'm thinking in this way? Olli was presented as bi at the beginning, but from 2007 is completely for men; he can be so sweet and friendly with girls, but when one proposed him sex (not love), he was scared. And please, no chance for Christian to switch totally to girls after 3 years of love with Olli. Maybe he could flirt or have sex with women still preferring men; remember that Chris is meeting only straight men, so he's receiving proposal only by women. Or I was wrong: in one case maybe the worst scenario could happen, but I cannot explain better my argument here Ok, I know: I'm stupid a lot. But I'm crazy for the guys. Hi, philos. Welcome. And your point is definitely not stupid! When you say Olli was scared when a woman proposed sex, are you referring to when one of the lesbian women said they preferred the "natural" way rather than artificial insemination? If so, I think that scene, and Olli's nervousness, was played for laughs. It would have been funny, with his husband in the room and him saying: "Alright, honey, let's go make babies. You know the way to the bedroom, don't you?" ;D (Wait a minute... he did agree in the end, didn't he?)
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robin1
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Post by robin1 on Jul 11, 2011 10:56:02 GMT -5
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Post by teachgirl on Jul 11, 2011 11:12:43 GMT -5
Hi, philos. Welcome. And your point is definitely not stupid! When you say Olli was scared when a woman proposed sex, are you referring to when one of the lesbian women said they preferred the "natural" way rather than artificial insemination? If so, I think that scene, and Olli's nervousness, was played for laughs. It would have been funny, with his husband in the room and him saying: "Alright, honey, let's go make babies. You know the way to the bedroom, don't you?" ;D (Wait a minute... he did agree in the end, didn't he?) Yeah, he did agree. And the amused look on Christian's face during the entire conversation was priceless. I miss seeing Thore and Jo do comic scenes. And to be serious for a moment, since I haven't seen "old" Olli, for me that is the only time I recall seeing Olli even contemplate being with a woman, other than the incident with Coco.
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Post by lolaruns on Jul 11, 2011 11:13:25 GMT -5
I think if you ask the actors, if it was up to them both would probably stay they prefer to play bi because it simply means more potential storylines and potential acting partners for them (more acting challenge etc). [but of course it is not up to them and in the end they play what the story dictates]
Personally I think the chance is pretty much zero that Olli will ever be paired romantically with a woman again.
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shiyo
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Post by shiyo on Jul 11, 2011 11:51:09 GMT -5
lolaruns, You really think so? I wouldnt be surprised if they throw us another curveball. Who knows, if [pure speculation] Jessica decides to fall in love with Olli that Olli wont reciprocate during the time they want to keep Chrolli apart? Weirder things have happened before. Like Lugia says, Tristan was once the most horrible rapey creepy brother ever and now we are supposed to like him. Nothing on this show would surprise me.
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philos
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Post by philos on Jul 11, 2011 13:51:48 GMT -5
Well, first of all yes, I was thinking about the lesbian proposal but not only; except with Coco (and SHE kissed Olli in any case!), do you remember a single passionate kiss with a woman? Or have you noted the difference between Olli's and Christian's kisses with Rebecca? No, I'll stay in my opinion, Olli is definitively gay! Personally I have been with girls before my 20, but after my first man I couldn't lie to me; and I tried. Of course, it's a soap, so writers can invent and change what they want, but the storyline will loose any credibility. And I liked this aspect.
PS. sorry for my English; I'm Italian, so I could write something very strange
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Post by sonia38 on Jul 11, 2011 14:00:24 GMT -5
Philos, I understand exactly what you are saying and totally agree with you. These writers really need to get a clue.
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Post by teachgirl on Jul 11, 2011 14:58:04 GMT -5
Philos, I understand exactly what you are saying and totally agree with you. These writers really need to get a clue. But even if Olli is completely uninterested in women, why do women now (not talking about Coco or Rebecca in the past) not hit on him? I know that Christian mentioned that time when he was jealous of the food critic that both women and men flirt with Olli, but the writers have never actually shown us this. Olli is so charming and so nice to women, it just seems ridiculous that Christian draws them like flies to honey and Olli doesn't.
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