joanna
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Post by joanna on Dec 27, 2010 12:29:26 GMT -5
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Post by dalphine on Dec 27, 2010 13:04:51 GMT -5
I just have to say I love this storyline, and today's espiode brought me to tears. Olli was just great. Christian was also good but... Olli was the one that brought me to tears today. Now I'm waiting for the video and subs, to come so I can understand what was said.
Like someone else mention, I did feel sorry for Lilly father as well.
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joanna
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Post by joanna on Dec 27, 2010 13:43:23 GMT -5
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Post by dalphine on Dec 27, 2010 14:00:48 GMT -5
Thanks Joanne for the caps and all you do. I hope you had a nice Christmas.
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Trish
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Post by Trish on Dec 27, 2010 14:26:08 GMT -5
Thanks for posting these. I felt bad for the boys having to lose Lily so soon, but the person that broke my heart was Lily's father. I couldn't imagine not having my child with me.
On another note. I guess that Rebecca and Miri are completely out, because Andi and Helena, didn't bat an eye at them when they were being all lovey dovey at NoLimits.
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kes
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Post by kes on Dec 27, 2010 14:36:12 GMT -5
Thanks Joanna!
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joanna
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Post by joanna on Dec 27, 2010 15:31:32 GMT -5
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joanna
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Post by joanna on Dec 27, 2010 17:43:24 GMT -5
My full set of caps, as enlargeable thumbnails, is now up in the thread opener. Click the below pic for the album they're all in....
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kes
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Post by kes on Dec 27, 2010 18:07:13 GMT -5
I find it a bit hard to sympathize with Olli and Christian a this point. If they were really thinking of the baby, wouldn't they be trying to help the father avoid deportation? Obviously, he loves her -- I haven't been watching for a while, but this kind of depressed me. I thought better of Olli and Christian. My sympathies today lay with the father.
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LadyArmand
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Post by LadyArmand on Dec 27, 2010 18:29:27 GMT -5
Even if they wanted to help Lilly's father avoid deportation they can't. He now has a crimminal record in Germany, there is nothing and I mean absolutely nothing they can do about it. Add to this I really don't think he wants to stay in Germany, he only came because his wife was sick, and now his only reason to come to German in the first place is gone. So going home might be something he wanted to do regardless of his immagration status.
Taking in a child you know you could and most likely will lose to their parents is a huge thing for anyone to do. But especially given the circumstances that Christian and Olli are in seeing as the way the law is set up in Germany (and lets face it in many countries regarding gay adoption) to discurage them from adotping children. Which is what they wanted to do in the first place.
Personally I feel bad for all involved. Lilly because when/if she goes back with her father she will never know her mother. Lilly's father because he has to raise her on his own and it's going to be diffucult. And then there are Christian and Olli, who love this child and might have to lose her.
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kes
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Post by kes on Dec 27, 2010 18:36:50 GMT -5
Even if they wanted to help Lilly's father avoid deportation they can't. He now has a crimminal record in Germany, there is nothing and I mean absolutely nothing they can do about it. Add to this I really don't think he wants to stay in Germany, he only came because his wife was sick, and now his only reason to come to German in the first place is gone. So going home would probabbly be something he wanted to do regardless of his immagration status. Taking in a child you know you could and most likely will lose to their parents is a huge thing for anyone to do. but especially givent he circumstances that Christian and Olli are in seeing as the way the law is set up in Germany (and lets face it in many countries regarding gay adoption) is set up to discurage them from adotping children. Which is what they wanted to do in the first place. Personally I feel bad for all involved. Lilly because when/if she goes back with her father she will never know her mother. Lilly's father because he has to raise her on his own and it's going to e diffucult. And then there are Christian and Olli, who love this child and might have to lose her. I get what you are saying, but Christian's an ex-con, too. Wouldn't he sympathize more with the father? And what about the girl's cultural heritage? It's hard being gay in Germany, but its hard (I imagine) being African too - particularly in this age of "failed multiculturalism" Merkel has lamented so. (If multiculturalism failed, then what succeeded? History makes the heart shiver the answer. It's kind of like an American president talking about "failed integration" -- and lots of Americans are saying this kind of thing now. One ex KKK type has been celebrated by FOX lately, as they lament his persecution by black Americans who dare bring up his horrible past.) I don't know, justice is justice, right is right, and Christian and Olli should know that. The father's oppression is just as real as their own, and Lilly is going to need him one day. The Christian and Olli I know would not be so self-centered. They have always stood up for justice. (NOTE: White parents raising African baby does not equal multiculturalism. It can be a wonderful thing, but it is also the traditional way white folks have dehumanized people they deem others -- Americans and Canadians raised "Indians" as Christians; Australians forcibly took Aboriginal children, and I'm sure lots of Jews have been taken in by Christians over the years.) If the writers wanted to, they could have given us a real story, one in which the three raise the young girl together. Anyway, the episode still rang with pathos. I think the father is played by a very fine actor -- as I've noted previously, his work is quite fine. Thanks for your opinion. I hope you don't mind mine.
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Trish
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Post by Trish on Dec 27, 2010 18:43:42 GMT -5
I find it a bit hard to sympathize with Olli and Christian a this point. If they were really thinking of the baby, wouldn't they be trying to help the father avoid deportation? Obviously, he loves her -- I haven't been watching for a while, but this kind of depressed me. I thought better of Olli and Christian. My sympathies today lay with the father. I'm with you. I felt really bad for the father. I kind of wish that Lily was an orphan and maybe it was an uncle that was trying to take her from Chrolli, then I would feel for them more.
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kes
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Post by kes on Dec 27, 2010 19:07:08 GMT -5
Thanks Twatts and Lady Armond -- it is so good to have a discussion. I have another thought: I think the writers are doing better than I give them credit for here. They could have made the father homophobic and somehow "bad," but instead they have dared to make him loving. This means Olli and Christian seem selfish, but then they are human. I can stand them not being perfect. I'd love to see them all raise Lilly together (particularly as Alois Moyo is such a fine actor -- (See: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7985713760178921306#) and www.youtube.com/watch?v=whKWCoeg6X0&feature=related). It's good to see Christian and Olli as humans, though. I just wish someone (Charlie? Judith -- the one I miss-- would give them a kick in the pants.) One last note: Lady Armond -- you are so helpful when you remind me about the horror Christian and Olli face in that they cannot adopt or have children in Germany with any kind of ease. That would make this situation much more painful for them. I had forgotten! It's so easy to forget!!!!
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LadyArmand
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Post by LadyArmand on Dec 27, 2010 19:25:52 GMT -5
Yes Christian has a record, but he’s a citizen of German, which tends to make a difference. (Add to this, that this a soap opera which explains a lot about this situation. I know in America Christian and Olli wouldn’t be allowed to foster with all those people living there and Lilly not having a room of her own, and the living quarters are over a bar or at least an establishment that serves liquor) Lilly’s father was in the country illegally to begin with then he committed a crime. Granted there were mitigating circumstances behind what he did, but sometimes the law can be blind and cruel like that. I do think they sympathize with the father. I think they actually like him and see how hard is has had it and is having it. I don’t know if I see Christian and Olli as selfish so much a human. They really want a child, their own government it making it damn near impossible for them to adopt one, with the cost and waiting period. They don’t want to lose Lilly, but as we saw they were willing to give her up because they see her father is a good man. It would have been easy to vilify the father to make Christiana and Olli look more sympathetic, but I like what the writers are doing. I think they’ve humanized the situation by making the father a decent man who only did what he did to save his wife and now he only has his child left. In the end what has to be served is the best interest of the child. And no I don't mind any opinion, I love a good disccusion. ETA: As an African American, it can be a touchy subject to see black children raised outside of their culture. That being said, again I think we have to go situation by situation and child by child. And if it is in the best interest of the child to be raised by parents who are loving and solid regadless of sexual oreintation and race, or be raised by parents who have no right to be parents but are given priority because of race and oreintation then the child isn't being served, that's more about being politically correct.
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Post by dalphine on Dec 27, 2010 19:43:42 GMT -5
Well LadyArmand... I have say I agree with your post. I'm glad they didn't vilify the dad to make chrolli look good. I feel for all of them it is bad situation and the people who live in Germany know the law there. Here in America they could have gotten a surrogate to carry a baby for them ,some gay men have done this.
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kes
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Post by kes on Dec 27, 2010 19:46:01 GMT -5
Yes Christian has a record, but he’s a citizen of German, which tends to make a difference. (Add to this, that this a soap opera which explains a lot about this situation. I know in America Christian and Olli wouldn’t be allowed to foster with all those people living there and Lilly not having a room of her own, and the living quarters are over a bar or at least an establishment that serves liquor) Lilly’s father was in the country illegally to begin with then he committed a crime. Granted there were mitigating circumstances behind what he did, but sometimes the law can be blind and cruel like that. I do think they sympathize with the father. I think they actually like him and see how hard is has had it and is having it. I don’t know if I see Christian and Olli as selfish so much a human. They really want a child, their own government it making it damn near impossible for them to adopt one, with the cost and waiting period. They don’t want to lose Lilly, but as we saw they were willing to give her up because they see her father is a good man. It would have been easy to vilify the father to make Christiana and Olli look more sympathetic, but I like what the writers are doing. I think they’ve humanized the situation by making the father a decent man who only did what he did to save his wife and now he only has his child left. In the end what has to be served is the best interest of the child. And no I don't mind any opinion, I love a good disccusion. ETA: As an African American, it can be a touchy subject to see black children raised outside of their culture. That being said, again I think we have to go situation by situation and child by child. And if it is in the best interest of the child to be raised by parents who are loving and solid regadless of sexual oreintation and race, or be raised by parents who have no right to be parents but are given priority because of race and oreintation then the child isn't being served, that's more about being politically correct. At risk of sounding simplistic, I agree with everything you write here. I like the humanity of the situation -- it is a sign of good writing, not bad writing. I agree with you, too, on the issue of adoption. The "political" tells us one thing (i.e. this would not be "multicultural" in the eyes of many) -- but it is humanity that is most important. As you say, "case by case." And, a you note, this story is very human -- in the face of an often inhuman (or at least inhumane) society. On a selfish, mundane level, my hope is that we get to a story for Christian, Olli and Lilly that is interesting -- I suppose my hope for the father's inclusion is partially a selfish one in that way. I don't know what the future holds, but I hope it holds depth and interest. In any case, I'm just glad to be back in the present. And I do appreciate your very thoughtful comments! (You too, Twatts!)
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SF
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Post by SF on Dec 27, 2010 23:53:34 GMT -5
wow it's all getting a bit weird isn't it?! i'm so disenchanted with this show at the minute, it's tainting the way i see EVERYTHING right now. i really thought thore's acting today was near awful - not even the sweet scene at the very end could make up for the fake crying. and he always used to be so affecting and great when he turned on the waterworks in the past. especially when you didn't expect it. it's like he's given up on this SL. as for olli, as a character, he's revoltingly sentimental, a caricature of the sweet, sensitive guy he once was. plus, either the plot writers are insane or stupid - why make fritz the good guy and have chrolli delirious with mirth at the prospect of pinching such a delightful man's daughter away from him, at christmas no less?! like i said, it's as if the actors have given up on trying with what they're given and it leaves me wondering why i should bother. if this is the future of chrolli i'm tempted to give up a bit like the dero fans. it's just entirely pointless. and i don't see the future getting any brighter. this is so many miles from the awesomeness of the judith/boxing/gregor/olivia days that i can't even believe this is the same show anymore. what happened?! also on a lower level of irritation: more stock shots of lilly? really?!?!? that's bugging me now. not gonna lie. how many more times are they gonna show chrolli staring into an empty buggy while a forever-13-month-old lilly in the same damn tshirt snores through reels of the same footage before they realise that to make people believe and fall in love with this SL they have to put a tiny weeny bit more effort into it?!? and a bit more energy. all the SLs actually - a tiny bit more drive and energy and purpose, and we'd be laughing.
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kes
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Post by kes on Dec 28, 2010 0:02:39 GMT -5
wow it's all getting a bit weird isn't it?! i'm so disenchanted with this show at the minute, it's tainting the way i see EVERYTHING right now. i really thought thore's acting today was near awful - not even the sweet scene at the very end could make up for the fake crying. and he always used to be so affecting and great when he turned on the waterworks in the past. especially when you didn't expect it. it's like he's given up on this SL. as for olli, as a character, he's revoltingly sentimental, a caricature of the sweet, sensitive guy he once was. plus, either the plot writers are insane or stupid - why make fritz the good guy and have chrolli delirious with mirth at the prospect of pinching such a delightful man's daughter away from him, at christmas no less?! like i said, it's as if the actors have given up on trying with what they're given and it leaves me wondering why i should bother. if this is the future of chrolli i'm tempted to give up a bit like the dero fans. it's just entirely pointless. and i don't see the future getting any brighter. this is so many miles from the awesomeness of the judith/boxing/gregor/olivia days that i can't even believe this is the same show anymore. what happened?! I know what you mean, soapfan. I'm back, however: for some reason, I'm hoping for better. I'm glad to see you.
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SF
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Post by SF on Dec 28, 2010 0:08:09 GMT -5
wow it's all getting a bit weird isn't it?! i'm so disenchanted with this show at the minute, it's tainting the way i see EVERYTHING right now. i really thought thore's acting today was near awful - not even the sweet scene at the very end could make up for the fake crying. and he always used to be so affecting and great when he turned on the waterworks in the past. especially when you didn't expect it. it's like he's given up on this SL. as for olli, as a character, he's revoltingly sentimental, a caricature of the sweet, sensitive guy he once was. plus, either the plot writers are insane or stupid - why make fritz the good guy and have chrolli delirious with mirth at the prospect of pinching such a delightful man's daughter away from him, at christmas no less?! like i said, it's as if the actors have given up on trying with what they're given and it leaves me wondering why i should bother. if this is the future of chrolli i'm tempted to give up a bit like the dero fans. it's just entirely pointless. and i don't see the future getting any brighter. this is so many miles from the awesomeness of the judith/boxing/gregor/olivia days that i can't even believe this is the same show anymore. what happened?! I know what you mean, soapfan. I'm back, however: for some reason, I'm hoping for better. I'm glad to see you. cheers kes, but i'm not holding my breath right now. i'm giving it till february - and if it picks up i'll stick around till the change in format come may. but if it's as bleak as these xmas episodes (i.e. todays pitiful offering) i'm gone. they've made them the resident sexless happily married couple. but without an emotional heart to make them a believeable backbone to the show. they need to pick where they want them to be. stick to it. and start valuing what they have. p.s. i love your judith/katrin avatar. she was so beautiful and kickass. i miss her SO much.
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Post by dalphine on Dec 28, 2010 3:22:48 GMT -5
If you're really a soaps fan, you should know that your not going to like every storyline, that your favorite couple will be involoved in. I loved the espoide today,and far as Christian he was trying to be strong and not fall apart as Olli did. It amazes me that people can watch the same thing but see it in a different way. The only thing I will agree with is that they do need to bring the sex back into there relationship.
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bel7003
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Post by bel7003 on Dec 28, 2010 8:41:19 GMT -5
I love to read all these different opinions about Chrolli and the current S/L. May I join you? I loved some of the past stories our boys were involved in, but they were not all perfect. Even during Judith/boxing days, there were somethings that didn't add up and the acting wasn't always the best and there were some boring episodes, too. We have to face the fact that Chrolli has to move on. They've been together as a couple for a long time (in soap years), and we can't expect them to be the same they were in the beginning. Of course, the writers could have given them a different S/L, there were countless possibilities. But they chose this one and I must say that, in the beginning, I also thought this was too soon to have them discussing baby issues. However, I think Jo and Thore are doing a great job with this. They are not perfect, but they are moving most viewers, if you count all the comments to MM's vids. I think they are believable and convey all sorts of emmotions. In my opinion, Lily's father being such a great guy is very good, because it adds conflict to the story. It would be easy to portray him as the bad guy and Chrolli as the good ones. But this time the writers didn't choose the easiest way and the last chapters have been very good. As for Olli and Christian, I think they have been in character: Olli always easy on the tears and Christian trying to be strong, although he was all torn up inside. It reminds me of the episode when they almost broke up. Olli was always teary eyed whereas Christian was trying not ot fall apart but didn't shed a tear. I know not everyone shares my opinion, but that's what I like about this board: people enjoy exchanging points of view. Of course there's something that would improve this story a lot: the guys having some sex quality time together. I'm sure we all agree on that. ;D ;D I'm not ready to give up on them. I just hope the writers give them good material to work with.
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SF
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Post by SF on Dec 28, 2010 9:09:11 GMT -5
If you're really a soaps fan, you should know that your not going to like every storyline, that your favorite couple will be involoved in. I loved the espoide today,and far as Christian he was trying to be strong and not fall apart as Olli did. It amazes me that people can watch the same thing but see it in a different way. The only thing I will agree with is that they do need to bring the sex back into there relationship. see soaps have bad days, but to be consecutively 'off' is another thing. it's like VL has lost track of it's purpose. it was quite clearly 'forbidden love' when i started watching. and it's fine that they are moving away from that. but they seem lost in a wilderness at the moment. their last good lead couple were grelu (even they ended badly) and after that they just lost their way, phico being a prime example of everything that's bad about VL at the moment. repetitive mini SLs with very little room for character development, it's impossible for the audience to form an attachment to anything in particular because it's all too briefly explored. there was too little of chrolli today, their relationship with lilly is far from clearly elaborated for me. as for the sex in the relationship - i would be happy if chrolli never got back to the regular passionate sex scenes like they had in the early days of their relationship again - they have matured as soap characters past that. and no i'm not saying that you stop having sex once you've settled into a relationship - but as SOAP characters they're no longer about the illicit passion. they could be if there was a genuine break in the relationship (not a crappy mini-arc fall out) but i don't think that would be popular with the fans. i just think that considering they are going down the sexless route - the SLs have to be strong enough to still demonstrate their emotional bond and chemistry. thore and jo have great, believable sexual chemistry, and i never doubted their emotional chemistry until now. but it doesn't seem strong enough to make me buy 'chrolli'. that's the only reason i miss the sex scenes. but i don't entirely blame the actors because they have had some of the shitest material to play that i've ever seen on a soap ever. it's sad for me to feel like everything is falling apart. and it's only because of how good these characters were that i keep watching. keep coming back. this is all only my opinion and i post it because sometimes it's nice to have a little dissent. it only serves to make the people happy with SL MORE happy and secure in their positive opinion. i don't do it to start a war. only a discussion. so the tone of your response is a little surprising and took me aback. although i totally respect what you have to say.
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kes
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Post by kes on Dec 28, 2010 9:39:20 GMT -5
Great discussion.
I wonder if the material -- the awkwardness of taking a man's daughter away from him on Christmas -- kept Thore from putting his all into those tears. It is, a you note bel, in character for Christian not to cry. But I wonder.
Unfortunately, the writing seems -- strange. I haven't watched the show for a while, but my sense is that the current writers can do some very fine work when they want (as with the beginning of the Rob story) but seem held back.
My own guess is that the producers are telling the writers what to do -- the writers come up with a story, but the producers twist it, change it, make it unrecognizable.
Anyway, much of this belongs in the bitterness thread. I just don't much like the way this arc is going either. As soapfan noted, there doesn't seem to be a real plan or real development, just an idea "Let's give them a child!" and some words of dialog to go with the idea.
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Post by paulie2906 on Dec 28, 2010 12:21:40 GMT -5
^^ It's a bit much to say Olli and Christian 'took' Fritz's daughter away from him. He made the decision to leave her with them because he knew he had no way to look after her properly once he got her home. Earlier Olli and Christian had accepted that Lily would be leaving and Olli even says that she belongs with her father and family. As a concept it's not all that far fetched. Here in the UK Nigerian students used to leave their kids with white foster parents while they went home to get established. Sometimes the arrangement would only be for a months, sometimes it would be for years. Sometimes the parents never returned to reclaim their children.
I wasn't a fan of this SL, it came so soon after the wedding and as Soapfan said there didn't seem to be a good reason other than they had no idea what to do with a married gay couple. But really it's better than the alternatives which have been an affair, petty arguments which get resolved in thirty seconds or the token happy couple who smile and hand out advice to their friends.
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SF
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Post by SF on Dec 28, 2010 12:36:00 GMT -5
i certainly think the awkwardness of the writing is making the actors' task harder. when they had their initial SL - the one that made people sit up and notice - you could tell from interviews and press releases that jo and thore kind of equally believed in the SL and the way it was being done. perhaps more so than the cause. it gave them a great, solid platform to show off what they could do as actors. but this SL is so bland and rushed by the production people that you get the impression the actors are just doing their jobs now. there's not much quality control on anyone's part i think. it's awesome that they still see chrolli as interesting and explore SLs with them, i'm anything but ungrateful because i know how easy it is for gay SLs to end in tears - but i think the whole show is slipping in terms of craftsmanship. it felt like a better product a few years ago. and for that reason i don't blame the actors - although i can't help notice COMPARATIVELY shoddy work.
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