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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 6, 2008 14:04:17 GMT -5
Honestly it's hard to tell. Considering that none of the current DeVaRo tension in the locker room was in the spoilers. I actually wonder if the whole "blablabla falls for the shallow glamour of the modelling world" stuff is actually code for DeRo. Guess we'll have to wait and see. From the screencaps and the recap, seems like a lot of tension and maybe Vanessa finally getting a strong whiff of smelling salts!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 23:39:50 GMT -5
I am just glad that DeVA are over... can't wait to see DeRo together again
but what I would really like to see is a new interest for Roman he deserves it, I hope that's coming soon...
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 13, 2008 5:46:23 GMT -5
And the award for stangest preview goes to... AWZ: 472 Nina ist frustriert: Erst nervt der Job, dann verweigert ihr Deniz auch noch versprochene VIP-Tickets. Nina entlädt ihre Wut an einer gefundenen Voodoo-Puppe. Wenig später folgt Vanessa ihrem Beispiel. Zusammen basteln die beiden Mädels eine Voodoo-Puppe. Was sie nicht ahnen: Der Spaß hat beängstigende Folgen. Nina is frustrated: First her job annoys her and then Deniz denies her the VIP tickets he promised her. Nina puts all her frustration into a Voodoo doll she found. Shortly afterwards Vanessa follows her example. Together the girls make a Voodoo doll. What they don't know: their little fun has scary consequences 473 Vanessa und Nina sind geschockt, dass ihr "Voodoo-Anschlag" auf Deniz offensichtlich erfolgreich war. Als sie Deniz am nächsten Morgen ängstlich aufsuchen, lässt dieser triumphierend die Bombe platzen: Er hat die ganze Zeit von ihrem Streich gewusst und alles nur inszeniert. Doch dann geschieht etwas Unerwartetes... Vanessa and Nina are shocked when their "Voodoo-attack" on Deniz appears to be successful. When they frightfully seek out Deniz the next morning he drops the bomb on them triumphantly: He knew about their prank the entire time and just faked everything. But then something unexptected happens... The fuck? Seriously... who writes these spoilers and why are they always sooooo oddly phrased. Ok, Nina I understand being bitter and bitchy to Deniz but Vanessa? I just can't support her wanting revenge on Deniz - even though he has been a tool to her - because she knew what she was letting herself in for when she was helping him lie & cheat while he was with Roman. Vanessa may be attacking Deniz but I think she is actually more angry at herself for making excuses for his lies and being made to look foolish for being so trusting. I wonder about the "unexpected" things that happens... ? I am glad to see Roman isn't doing anymore SEX ATTACK type things, though I am curious how he deals with Deniz telling him he just sees him as a play thing (ouch!) after Roman tells Deniz he loves him. It's nice that he doesn't resort to voodoo. Voodoo. VOODOO. Does this surpass KILLER VIRUS?
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 13, 2008 5:56:16 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I know you love Deniz, but as far as I'm concerned he deserves all the crazy bitchy ex-girlfriends in the world. Nobody held a gun to his head and forced him to say over and over again he loved her (regardless of how unconvincing he sounds). He made his bed and how he better lie it all out, even if that means having to endure Vanessa's wrath.
Is it nice or healthy for Vanessa to do this? Sure not. But that doesn't mean that Deniz doesn't deserve to be tortured or that she has any obligation to be nice and sane.
In fact, I would say that pure vengeful unloading her rage on him and trying to humiliate him I find usually a lot more enjoyable to watch than "trying to seduce him back/pleading with him to come back" inability to give up on a relationship. In fact, the kind of things that Vanessa is doing now are much closer that if he had to get revenge, Roman should have done instead of trying to seduce him in the shower. Real "I hate your guts and you are slime" type of revenge.
(again, which doesn't mean that those feelings couldn't change in the future, notably if person B tries to win them back afterwards, aftr A has gone revenge bitch on them, but they are definitely a lot more fun to watch than pining [for the record, I'm thinking of Roman here, not Vanessa])
And good lord, these "something unexpected happens" thing are so annoying.
It should also be noted that there was a week of spoilers and those were from the first two days and for the next three episodes the plotline wasn't even mentioned AT ALL and it was all Max/Juli/Oliver and Diana/nuGuy with some Ingo/Anette thrown in instead.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 13, 2008 6:10:45 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I know you love Deniz, but as far as I'm concerned he deserves all the crazy bitchy ex-girlfriends in the world. Nobody held a gun to his head and forced him to say over and over again he loved her (regardless of how unconvincing he sounds). He made his bed and how he better lie it all out, even if that means having to endure Vanessa's wrath. Is it nice or healthy for Vanessa to do this? Sure not. But that doesn't mean that Deniz doesn't deserve to be tortured or that she has any obligation to be nice and sane. In fact, I would say that pure vengeful unloading her rage on him and trying to humiliate him I find usually a lot more enjoyable to watch than "trying to seduce him back/pleading with him to come back" inability to give up on a relationship. In fact, the kind of things that Vanessa is doing now are much closer that if he had to get revenge, Roman should have done instead of trying to seduce him in the show. Real "I hate your guts and you are slime" type of revenge. (again, which doesn't mean that those feelings couldn't change in the future, but they are definitely a lot more fun to watch than pining) I don't love Deniz... I love DeRo and I have much admiration for Igor but I think Deniz is a tool. That said, I just don't feel sympathy for Vanessa cause if he will cheat with you, he will cheat on you. When it comes to Deniz I feel badly for Nina, whom I can't stand otherwise, because he used her so badly and felt no remorse. N & V making a voodoo doll to hurt Deniz is just STUPID. At this point, I think Nina should hate him for having used her but it's been almost a year... move on. Be disdainful and occasionally bitchy but overt attempts to do harm to Deniz seems pyscho, stupid and silly all rolled into one. Vanessa should be angry, should be hurt but she shouldn't be playing the role of the victim. I think that is why I am annoyed, is because Vanessa is acting like she is innocent in all of this and she's not. She is not a victim but an accomplice to her own current pain. Too bad no one reminds Vanessa of her own culpability in her sneaky and high-horse behavior when she got together with Deniz in the first place. I think if anyone should have gone the revenge route on Deniz, it should have been Roman cause he was actually wronged, but Vanessa... yes, Deniz was a douchebag to her but you reap what you sow.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 13, 2008 6:27:09 GMT -5
(1) with the same logic I could argue not having sympathy for Roman. If you have to fake an injury or lie and cheat (organizing the thing Kaya) or generally hook up with a teenager with half your maturity level then you shouldn't be surprised to have a crappy relationship. That doesn't make what Deniz did right. Just like Vanessa being a crappy victim makes what Deniz did any less wrong and worth punishing. (2) I don't have to have sympathy with Vanessa to enjoy her going after Deniz. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing horrible enough that Vanessa could do that wouldn't still put her mountains above Deniz (and of course Roman is still mountains above Vanessa but that's not the question of the moment)
As far as I'm concerned, Vanessa acting sanely in this situation would just encourage Deniz to cheat more on all future relationships because it would show him that he can get away with it and people wil still love him and be nice to him and be understanding of his motives. Oh, poor little Deniz, had to lie and cheat in the relationship that he himself entered and stayed in. Poor, poor, poor little Deniz.
We don't know whether she plays the role of the victim. At this point the only thing we know for sure is that she is playing the role of somebody who hates his guts. And Deniz more than deserves to have his guts hated on.
Yes, Deniz cheated (on Roman and Vanessa) and now he is reaping what he sowed. As far as I'm concerned that is justice. Is it a pity that Vanessa should be the one dishing it out? Sure. But it would be a greater pity if nobody did it. Deniz doesn't deserve to have his misdeeds forgotten and has no right to ever expect to live it down.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 13, 2008 6:54:14 GMT -5
(1) with the same logic I could argue not having sympathy for Roman. If you have to fake an injury or lie and cheat (organizing the thing Kaya) or generally hook up with a teenager with half your maturity level then you shouldn't be surprised to have a crappy relationship. That doesn't make what Deniz did right. Just like Vanessa being a crappy victim makes what Deniz did any less wrong and worth punishing. (2) I don't have to have sympathy with Vanessa to enjoy her going after Deniz. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing horrible enough that Vanessa could do that wouldn't still put her mountains above Deniz (and of course Roman is still mountains above Vanessa but that's not the question of the moment) As far as I'm concerned, Vanessa acting sanely in this situation would just encourage Deniz to cheat more on all future relationships because it would show him that he can get away with it and people wil still love him and be nice to him and be understanding of his motives. Oh, poor little Deniz, had to lie and cheat in the relationship that he himself entered and stayed in. Poor, poor, poor little Deniz. We don't know whether she plays the role of the victim. At this point the only thing we know for sure is that she is playing the role of somebody who hates his guts. And Deniz more than deserves to have his guts hated on. Yes, Deniz cheated (on Roman and Vanessa) and now he is reaping what he sowed. As far as I'm concerned that is justice. Is it a pity that Vanessa should be the one dishing it out? Sure. But it would be a greater pity if nobody did it. Deniz doesn't deserve to have his misdeeds forgotten and has no right to ever expect to live it down. I don't think anyone, including me, ever claimed what Deniz did so to Roman & Vanessa (and will do to Roman) is right. Vanessa acting sanely would be good for her. If she's done with Deniz, then be done. Walk away. Why the fuck should she care when what she should be focusing on is moving on? What he does in other relationships shouldn't matter to her because he's not her boyfriend and not her friend so if anything, she should be glad to just be free. I am all for her walking away and moving the fuck on and letting Deniz be someone else's problem. Instead, she wants to go a settle a score in a situation she's partly to blame for. I'm sorry, but Vanessa cannot claim "poor me!" and her going after Deniz is basically her saying that. It's just a stupid circle of which she's absolving herself of any culpability for her situation and white-washing her own past actions in getting with Deniz. She's trying to punish Deniz for doing to her what she helped him do to someone else. No dice. It's not justice, it's vengeance. As for Roman, he knows that Deniz lies, and while I don't condone it, Roman seems to think he can handle it cause he loves Deniz. And on some level he does get Deniz more than Vanessa does but as we will see shortly, that will bite Roman in the ass. I felt sorry for Roman when Deniz & Vanessa's cheating came out because he was wronged - and I agree Roman was wrong to lie about the injury plus it pissed me off that Deniz used that as a reason to break up with Roman when he'd been the one lying & cheating on Roman - and then basically had it rubbed in his face by DeVa and by friends who weren't all that supportive of his pain. For me, it's not about "poor Deniz". I don't feel sympathy for him but I also feel none for Vanessa. Deniz will get his eventually but Vanessa being the one who wants to dole out vengeance against him is more than a little hypocritical. Since he'll likely blow himself up, she should just walk away and try to recapture her dignity. Her desire for petty revenge makes her sink to his level.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 13, 2008 7:16:43 GMT -5
Like I said, I don't have to have sympathy with Vanessa to enjoy her punishing Deniz. I just plain out think he should suffer and as a result enjoy seeing him get punished. Again, I would rather the wrong person punish him than him not getting punished by anyone at all.
And I mush prefer a bitch on wheels than a holier than thou taking the high road character in this situation. It's your presumption that she plays poor me or that she doesn't understand her part in it. Maybe she understands her part in it and still hates his guts.
Her level wasn't all that high in the first place and if they are mudslinging at each other then I say, well, that is exactly the appropriate behavior for people who were willing to screw behind Roman's back. Vanessa cheated and ended up with a lying cheat for a boyfriend. Deniz cheated and he'll end up with an insane shrew ex at least for a while. Strikes me as perfect justice.
Sure, in a real world we would advice a Vanessa to remove herself from Deniz (though he sort of works for her parents that is unlikely to ever be completely possible). But particularly on a soap where the intention is maximize drama, I say go for it. And heck, even if Vanessa was real I would say go for it like throwing plates after him or his clothes and stuff out in the street.
(and personally it seems to me that Deniz is much more trapped in this "poor me" mindset than Vanessa; the king of saying that he is sorry and not meaning it/never learning from it; I would say he has the emotional maturity of a pottet plant, except that it would be an insult to plants; chances are that being tortured by the likes of Vanessa is the only language he understands)
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 13, 2008 9:02:10 GMT -5
Like I said, I don't have to have sympathy with Vanessa to enjoy her punishing Deniz. I just plain out think he should suffer and as a result enjoy seeing him get punished. Again, I would rather the wrong person punish him than him not getting punished by anyone at all. And I mush prefer a bitch on wheels than a holier than thou taking the high road character in this situation. It's your presumption that she plays poor me or that she doesn't understand her part in it. Maybe she understands her part in it and still hates his guts. Her level wasn't all that high in the first place and if they are mudslinging at each other then I say, well, that is exactly the appropriate behavior for people who were willing to screw behind Roman's back. Vanessa cheated and ended up with a lying cheat for a boyfriend. Deniz cheated and he'll end up with an insane shrew ex at least for a while. Strikes me as perfect justice. Sure, in a real world we would advice a Vanessa to remove herself from Deniz (though he sort of works for her parents that is unlikely to ever be completely possible). But particularly on a soap where the intention is maximize drama, I say go for it. And heck, even if Vanessa was real I would say go for it like throwing plates after him or his clothes and stuff out in the street. (and personally it seems to me that Deniz is much more trapped in this "poor me" mindset than Vanessa; the king of saying that he is sorry and not meaning it/never learning from it; I would say he has the emotional maturity of a pottet plant, except that it would be an insult to plants; chances are that being tortured by the likes of Vanessa is the only language he understands) You're right, it is my assumption that Vanessa's playing the poor victim role but as yet, nothing had told or shown me otherwise. And not being petty is not the same thing as being holier than thou. Those are two different things. You can be dignified without being holier than thou just as you can want vengeance and choose not to. It's all in how you handle yourself. Deniz is always "it wasn't me, it was the other person". Different ways to play the same victim card. Deniz creates situations or responds in almost always the wrong way to tight spots with lying being the first road taken. I think he'll get his by his own machinations catching up to him, I just think Vanessa's going to be a hypocrite about her vengeance and that's going to take 90% of any "joy" out of his comeuppance out of the equation for me. Like I said, I have no problem with Nina sticking it to him, but I do Vanessa.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 13, 2008 9:14:37 GMT -5
See, I see nothing wrong with being petty. Vanessa is still in highschool. I say go for being petty. And to me Deniz is not an innocent little victim. Again, nobody held a gun to his head. They are both twits and the thought of them going at it like this (she gets a voodoo doll, he tricks her in reverse and potentially more sheneenigans of this type) makes me very happy. Because they are both assholes. Deniz doesn't deserve anybody taking the high road in his regard. There is just no variation of the universe where Vanessa beating down on Deniz will seem unfair to me. Or rather, even if it is unfair, I don't care. He deserves having unfair things happening to him because it's not like he was ever fair to Roman or Vanessa or anybody really.
The fact that is Vanessa just makes it sweeter because there was some personal relationship at one point. If Nina does something mean now it's not as fun because it's not as personal. Because even though Deniz truly did her wrong she proved that whatever she felt for him couldn't have been that deep because she quickly moved on to crushing on Deniz' dad. It seems that her voodoo is based entirely on greed pettyness not emotional pettyness. Hence is why I presume that what Vanessa will do will be much more fun to watch.
Why, so he can cry and say "I'm sorry" and have Marian and Roman hug him and tell him they still love him? Bullshit. Since he is never gonna learn, I'll settle for him suffering. And petty humiliation is exactly the right thing for him.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 13, 2008 11:45:31 GMT -5
See, I see nothing wrong with being petty. Vanessa is still in highschool. I say go for being petty. And to me Deniz is not an innocent little victim. Again, nobody held a gun to his head. They are both twits and the thought of them going at it like this (she gets a voodoo doll, he tricks her in reverse and potentially more sheneenigans of this type) makes me very happy. Because they are both assholes. Deniz doesn't deserve anybody taking the high road in his regard. There is just no variation of the universe where Vanessa beating down on Deniz will seem unfair to me. Or rather, even if it is unfair, I don't care. He deserves having unfair things happening to him because it's not like he was ever fair to Roman or Vanessa or anybody really. The fact that is Vanessa just makes it sweeter because there was some personal relationship at one point. If Nina does something mean now it's not as fun because it's not as personal. Because even though Deniz truly did her wrong she proved that whatever she felt for him couldn't have been that deep because she quickly moved on to crushing on Deniz' dad. It seems that her voodoo is based entirely on greed pettyness not emotional pettyness. Hence is why I presume that what Vanessa will do will be much more fun to watch. Ok, you seem to have strong feelings about loathing Deniz, and that's fine, but if you're going to debate me about what I am saying, please debate me on what I actually said and not once did I say that Deniz was innocent or a victim. If I am not mistaken I think I called him a tool, which is not the same thing as innocent or a victim. What I did say is that I think Vanessa's being a hypocrite in playing the victim card and that she should find the little dignity she has left and walk away glad that she's free of Deniz's duplicity instead of allowing herself to sink down to his level for revenge. And I don't think her wanting vengeance on Deniz is unfair, I think it's stupid and petty. Despite Deniz needing his ass handed to him, watching Vanessa do it won't be fun for me due to Vanessa's hypocrisy in the situation. Why, so he can cry and say "I'm sorry" and have Marian and Roman hug him and tell him they still love him? Bullshit. Since he is never gonna learn, I'll settle for him suffering. And petty humiliation is exactly the right thing for him. I don't think I ever said that nor even intimated that is what I want to happen with Deniz. Since I don't hate the character though I do think he's a punk, I don't think of ways of which to see him suffer. I think I suffer already with the nebulous, whiplash writing on the show but still I'd rather just watch to see what happens with how he will get his comeuppance than actively cheer for someone who will whitewash her own actions in the situation yet desires petty vengeance for something she helped happen. Whatever happens to Deniz happens to him but it'd be nice if everyone else retained some dignity. And yes Vanessa's young but age is not an acceptable justification to be stupid or a hypocrite or a cheater (and that goes for Deniz too), IMO. I'm all for vengeance when necessary but hypocrisy to the point that the bullshit makes your breath stink? No thanks, whether it be Deniz or Vanessa but especially if it's going to mean watching her be an asshole to Deniz then turn around and call herself the better person. We already get enough of that from Deniz making everyone else guilty when he's the one lying. Neither one looks good, but I had hope for Vanessa before I saw these latest spoilers.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 13, 2008 12:14:39 GMT -5
Total conjecture on your side. Based on the type of stunts Vanessa is pulling it doesn't seem like the show has any intention of portraying her as justified or a better person. All her pranks are pretty childish (voodoo doll, pig costume, whatever else), so I guess their take on her is going to be childish. It's not even close to soul stealing evil either, not even close to bunny boiling.
And since Deniz guesses this prank and does something in the reverse it seems that he won't exactly be helpless as he is tortured either.
All the more reason of him to get some of his own medicine back.
Tool = used by others = not responsible for their own actions
Deniz was a PERPETRATOR of bad deeds. Hence, he deserves to get his big time.
I think both of them have sunk way past the level of hypocrisy a long time ago. Since they are already hypocrites, they might as well be entertaining by torturing each other for a change rather than uninvolved third parties.
To me, Vanessa taking the high road smells too much of giving Deniz a free pass and that is the thing that I'm against above all others.
Did he show dignity when he was screwing Vanessa behind Roman's back? Or when he lied to both of them at the same time (to Vanessa that he would tell Roman, to Roman, well, the whole thing), or when he is now needlessly lying to Vanessa so he can sneak out and have parties? No, the proper way is for him to lose all dignity so he can maybe work his way up. But no, to me with the things he has done, Deniz has no claim to any dignity.
Look from my perspective, cheating on Roman was already really crummy. But you know, it's a soap, cheating happens. But usually for reasons. People cheat because they are angsty or confused, or because the other person is their One True Love (TM). But the fact that he turned around and continued this behavior immediately just shows that he is a worthless serial liar and cheater and that none of the outside circumstances apply.
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Post by amber80 on Jun 13, 2008 12:24:59 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I know you love Deniz, but as far as I'm concerned he deserves all the crazy bitchy ex-girlfriends in the world. Word!! Loved your discussion above... I'm afraid I haven't much to contribute... My first thought when I saw the new spoilers was: VOODOO? But after thinking it over and reading your posts, I don't think it's gonna be that bad. It's probably meant to give us something to laugh about... And pffft... In my eyes all three of them are all as bad.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 13, 2008 12:25:30 GMT -5
Total conjecture on your side. Based on the type of stunts Vanessa is pulling it doesn't seem like the show has any intention of portraying her as justified or a better person. All her pranks are pretty childish (voodoo doll, pig costume, whatever else), so I guess their take on her is going to be childish. And since Deniz guesses this prank and does something in the reverse it seems that he won't exactly be helpless as he is tortured either. All the more reason of him to get some of his own medicine back. Tool = used by others = not responsible for their own actions Deniz was a PERPETRATOR of bad deeds. Hence, he deserves to get his big time. I think both of them have sunk way past the level of hypocrisy a long time ago. Since they are already hypocrites, they might as well be entertaining by torturing each other for a change rather than uninvolved third parties. To me, Vanessa taking the high road smells too much of giving Deniz a free pass and that is the thing that I'm against above all others. Did he show dignity when he was screwing Vanessa behind Roman's back? Or when he lied to both of them at the same time (to Vanessa that he would tell Roman, to Roman, well, the whole thing), or when he is now needlessly lying to Vanessa so he can sneak out and have parties? No, the proper way is for him to lose all dignity so he can maybe work his way up. But no, to me with the things he has done, Deniz has no claim to any dignity. Yes, it is total conjecture, which was my point when I stressed for me in bold type since I am basing it on my assumption from what I've seen which I stated earlier in a post just as all of your points are based on conjecture from your point of view. And that is not how tool is generally used as slang in the USA, so trying to break it down like that doesn't change what I meant thus in my estimation Deniz is still a tool. I guess the difference is I don't base everything around Deniz. Each person is responsible for their own actions & reactions, so Deniz being a tool, asshole, liar, whatever isn't a free pass - to me - for Vanessa (or Roman) to be one in return.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 13, 2008 12:32:43 GMT -5
Yet you think that V being desperate to believe a gay guy or date a cheater makes her undeserving of sympathy regarding any cheating and lying. I say Deniz lying to V and fooling around with models (meaning second instance of cheating, meaning no extenuating circumstances) behind her back makes him undeserving of sympathy regarding any wrath he might have to endure.
You say V should have seen it coming. I say, please, if Deniz lies and cheats, then he also should have seen it coming that maybe, just maybe it would lead to some people being pissed at him and wanting revenge.
I'm not advocating a free pass for Vanessa, I just think that for once Deniz is the right target. Her being mean to Deniz even though he is a dick still makes her guilty of being mean. Just like cheating on Vanessa even though she knew about his history still makes him guilty of cheating and deceit.
Again, from what I see her actions are mostly pranks. Sure, if she was doing truly vicious things (like Nina did when she accused Marian of rape, or Jenny did when she hired a guy to beat up Diana) then I would agree. But the things she is doing to far? Pshaw. Doesn't come even close to bothering me.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 13, 2008 13:42:11 GMT -5
Yet you think that V being desperate to believe a gay guy or date a cheater makes her undeserving of sympathy regarding any cheating and lying. I say Deniz lying to V and fooling around with models (meaning second instance of cheating, meaning no extenuating circumstances) behind her back makes him undeserving of sympathy regarding any wrath he might have to endure. You say V should have seen it coming. I say, please, if Deniz lies and cheats, then he also should have seen it coming that maybe, just maybe it would lead to some people being pissed at him and wanting revenge. I'm not advocating a free pass for Vanessa, I just think that for once Deniz is the right target. Her being mean to Deniz even though he is a dick still makes her guilty of being mean. Just like cheating on Vanessa even though she knew about his history still makes him guilty of cheating and deceit. Again, from what I see her actions are mostly pranks. Sure, if she was doing truly vicious things (like Nina did when she accused Marian of rape, or Jenny did when she hired a guy to beat up Diana) then I would agree. But the things she is doing to far? Pshaw. Doesn't come even close to bothering me. No... not simply dating a cheater but knowingly being the one he cheated with. I've dated guys who've cheated in the past but I wasn't the one they cheated with (that I know of ). Two different things. And, yes, that "cheated with" is a main reason I am mostly unsympathetic to her in this situation. I guess the difference for me is that I am not making it ALL about Deniz. I am separating Deniz and Vanessa's actions and reactions. I don't compare to push one up or push one down but evaluate the characters on their own. So yea, I am not sympathetic to Vanessa in this situation and yes, she should have seen that Deniz would do to her what she helped him do to someone else. His being an asshole doesn't change that for me, especially when she was warned and she'd seen for herself his overzealous flirting with the models. That said, it doesn't negate Deniz is an asshole, it's just possible for me to separate the two characters and judge each on their own merit (or lack there of) and that is what I am doing.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 13, 2008 13:50:37 GMT -5
See, for me that doesn't work. For me, Vanessa and Deniz are one singular big bowl of awful. And whenever you talk about separating the two it always sounds like you are damning her and making excuses for him (since you go on about how you have no sympathy for it, yet still find him hot and hope he can win Roman back).
To me, cheating is indefinitely worse than being the other woman. Deniz is the one with committment. He is the one who broke this commitment. It always makes me gag when people in real life or on soap operas make excuses for the cheater but damn the other woman (espectially since Vanessa didn't exactly throw herself at Deniz either or stalk him, as in the case of Nina/Marian). He is the one with the commitment, ergo, he is the one who needs to keep his pants on.
And that it is somehow more a risk to stay with the guy who cheated on somebody else for you than you just date some random cheater, that much I don't get. From a soap psychology POV, if Vanessa assumed that Deniz loved her so much that he would break a commitment for her, why wouldn't her own naive take on it be that he must love her very much and hence not cheat on her? (again, everybody except Roman is a teenager, it's not like she has a lot of relationship experience)
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 13, 2008 14:05:50 GMT -5
See, for me that doesn't work. For me, Vanessa and Deniz are one singular big bowl of awful. And whenever you talk about separating the two it always sounds like you are damning her and making excuses for him (since you go on about how you have no sympathy for it, yet still find him hot and hope he can win Roman back). To me, cheating is indefinitely worse than being the other woman. Deniz is the one with committment. He is the one who broke this commitment. It always makes me gag when people in real life or on soap operas make excuses for the cheater but damn the other woman (espectially since Vanessa didn't exactly throw herself at Deniz either or stalk him, as in the case of Nina/Marian). He is the one with the commitment, ergo, he is the one who needs to keep his pants on. And that it is somehow more a risk to stay with the guy who cheated on somebody else for you than you just date some random cheater, that much I don't get. From a soap psychology POV, if Vanessa assumed that Deniz loved her so much that he would break a commitment for her, why wouldn't her own naive take on it be that he must love her very much and hence not cheat on her? (again, everybody except Roman is a teenager, it's not like she has a lot of relationship experience) Just because I don't trash Deniz with every post doesn't mean I don't consider him an ass. I have commented on his behavior a lot, plus I didn't think I had to since his tool-like behavior is quite obvious. I just don't feel the need to put that in every post I make about the show that he's an ass. And I am not trashing Vanessa, I just don't think she's a victim in this mess and I expected her to be more dignified when the shit hit the fan than resorting to getting back at at him for doing to her what he did with her. It may not work for you to separate the two but it works for me. I can talk about Deniz & Vanessa separately or as a dyad but the end result of either thought process doesn't change in my mind that he's a punk and she's not a victim in this situation. And, yes, Nina sucks for the rape thing (for a lot of things, actually). I didn't know about Jenny hiring a thug a la Tonya Harding, but not surprised.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 13, 2008 14:31:40 GMT -5
See, to me tool only means stupid. But what Deniz did wasn't just stupid it was *actively* wrong. He took actions. Wrong actions. Asshole actions. Because I don't buy any of the "he is so confused/he has trouble dealing with sexuality" excuses because to me the show hasn't even come close to believably showing anything like that. And quite frankly, I don't think they even tried. So all that remains is Deniz asshole behavior.
Which is why at this point the though of Deniz ever coming close to Roman again pretty much makes me want to hurl unless he severe humiliation and paying for what he did is involved/done first. And getting kicked in the nuts by the woman he cheated with I find an excellent place to start. Again, this is gays of daytime. Vanessa is nice and all, but I don't care nearly as much whether this arc is good for her or not. But I care how Deniz arc goes and in this arc him getting kicked hard by V is exactly the perfect thing for him to happen.
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neand48
Full Member
'It isn't about who has the power or who doesn't, but the power you share when you love each other.'
Posts: 1,154
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Post by neand48 on Jun 13, 2008 15:51:02 GMT -5
Yikes, now Roman is enchanted by Ingo's ex, Celine. I hope that Roman isn't about to take a dip in the hetero pool. I've always found women much more fascinating than men; I have no problem relating to Roman being enchanted by Celine. It would be interesting to see Dennis (the gay actor) involved in a straight relationship; it'd be a change from the typical straight actor playing gay (one of my pet peeves). As for Deniz and Vanessa, I have to keep reminding myself that they are teenagers who are made to act like grown-ups but who can only react like the teenagers they are. I do not condone their behaviour (Deniz's in particular who appears to indicate that he'd want Roman as his f*** bunny)... I only try to understand it (it is a soap after all). The one that's causing me problems is Roman. He is the adult of the lot... but he always seems to be saying to Deniz: "See? We kissed... we had sex (made love if you prefer)... so you're gay. You have to be, 'cause I'm so totally attracted to you." As if everything was this cut and dry. Not once has he ever tried to understand Deniz who's at an age when feelings go the way of the hormones. I'd say: "leave Deniz be and see what happens with time." I'd love to see Roman meet someone like Ingo (bet definitely not Ingo; him and Annette are my fav couple), as was suggested in a previous post. Voodoo: don't tell me the AWZ writers are getting writing tips from the ATWT writers... please!!!
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 13, 2008 15:59:27 GMT -5
In the general, I think it's gonna be healthier for all of them if Vanessa gets to vent her frustrations. She's a teenager, so the emotional maturity that can be expected of her is limited. I predict it will be much easier for her to truly get over it fully and completely than she would if she did some soulsearching. I actually bet that she would do much more whinig and self pitying if she did (soulsearching) than if she did do some overreacting.
At least this way, maybe she can get it out of her system and maybe her and Deniz can even go back to being friends or just not have things be forever awkward between them.
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neand48
Full Member
'It isn't about who has the power or who doesn't, but the power you share when you love each other.'
Posts: 1,154
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Post by neand48 on Jun 13, 2008 16:19:12 GMT -5
At least this way maybe her and Deniz can even go back to being friends or just not have things be forever awkward between them. That would be nice...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2008 14:18:24 GMT -5
Voodoo? really?
I am not completely familiar with this soap, is AWZ like the 'Passions' of Germany? Should we expect witches and a talking Timmy doll next?
I personally wasn't a great fan of Passions, so I hope the storylines get a little more out of the sci-fi genre for AWZ...
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 14, 2008 14:30:25 GMT -5
Voodoo? really? I am not completely familiar with this soap, is AWZ like the 'Passions' of Germany? Should we expect witches and a talking Timmy doll next? I personally wasn't a great fan of Passions, so I hope the storylines get a little more out of the sci-fi genre for AWZ... AWZ is not Passions. For one, people on AWZ can act (hey, I spent 7-8 years watching Passions, I can judge! ).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2008 21:03:36 GMT -5
LOL, my bad...he he he My mother used to watch Passions and that's how I've caught it...Things just kept getting crazier and crazier... so I am glad you reasure me it is not like Passions, lol. I have to agree on the acting it is ten times better.
I just hope AWZ can come up with less ridiculous storylines than Voodoo
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