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Post by rhiannonhero on Aug 7, 2009 19:03:54 GMT -5
Olli has always been controlling. That is nothing new. Even with the boxing storyline, Olli always made the choices for Christian, even often against his express wishes (interrupting his coming out to Wolle, getting a beard for him, etc) and I don't know if people remarked on it them, since I wasn't involved in the fandom at the time, having come in much later, but there's no doubt that Olli is a control freak, and that Christian likes that about him most of the time. And, btw, I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with that dynamic between them. Christian enjoys being told what to do and Olli enjoys doing the telling. Right now, it might be out of balance, due to so many things in their life, but that's how things go, and I'm sure it will come back to being more in balance, or even with Christian having the reins, at some point in the future.
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Post by tihkon2 on Aug 7, 2009 19:14:28 GMT -5
Here's today's scenes with English Subtitles. Enjoy! Danke Nanna!
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kes
Full Member
Without community, there is no liberation. Audre Lorde
Posts: 1,583
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Post by kes on Aug 7, 2009 19:38:01 GMT -5
Thanks so much!!!! Tihkon, Nanna and Ivan, Danke!!!!
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tone
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by tone on Aug 7, 2009 21:59:42 GMT -5
Olli has always been controlling. That is nothing new. Even with the boxing storyline, Olli always made the choices for Christian, even often against his express wishes (interrupting his coming out to Wolle, getting a beard for him, etc) and I don't know if people remarked on it them, since I wasn't involved in the fandom at the time, having come in much later, but there's no doubt that Olli is a control freak, and that Christian likes that about him most of the time. And, btw, I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with that dynamic between them. Christian enjoys being told what to do and Olli enjoys doing the telling. Right now, it might be out of balance, due to so many things in their life, but that's how things go, and I'm sure it will come back to being more in balance, or even with Christian having the reins, at some point in the future. Oh absolutely, I believe Olli has always been quite controlling... there is just something else that is bugging me right now and I think it stems from Olli being in NL, which I really don't like and I like even less his attitude about it. But that is not a discussion for here. In this episode (and the subsequent vlog), I find him rather condescending to Christian and I completely understand Christian's reaction in telling Olli to not try and get jobs on his behalf and Olli, quite rightly, apologised. I don't actually believe Christian likes being told what to do. I see him very much as a "take charge" kinda guy where he more or less knows where he going. Like many of us, when he lacks clear direction, he's lost. I don't believe he's looking for Olli to provide that direction, but to provide support (as you would expect from your partner/bf)... unfortunately the "support", to me, is manifesting in an overbearing "you have to get a job and find a new dream" way and not in a "this situation sucks, I'm here for you, vent at me if you need to" way. As for the vlogs, I'm enjoying them but I'm not itching to see another one where Olli is teasing Christian and talking about "what Christian did this week". It's irritating me and, as Nanna wrote when the video was uploaded to YouTube, Olli is speaking to Christian in the way you would a child. I believe it needs to stop cause it's making me want to slap Olli.
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Post by rhiannonhero on Aug 7, 2009 22:28:54 GMT -5
Eh, I can't really say that I agree with the idea that Christian doesn't often enjoy being told what to do. He almost always at least checks in with someone else before making a decision of any kind at all, and often seems relieved to have someone take the burden of decision making off of his shoulders. In some situations, though, he truly does not like it -- and this current situation is one of them (as was the beard situation and, to some extent, not being 'allowed' to come out to Wolle when he wanted to do so). And just because he isn't enjoying it now doesn't make Olli's behavior in any way different than it always has been with regards to Christian.
You mention that what is bugging you about Olli is the NL situation and that you interpret him as being condescending to Christian. Well, I think that he's always been condescending to Christian when he's gone into "caretaker" mode -- check out the clips when he's "soothing" Christian about not coming out, and saying all kinds of things that were really quite condescending. The main difference at that time, I guess, was that Olli was not in a successful place in his life at all. He was a waiter with no dream and no plans and focused entirely on Christian's success as a boxer.
Now, he's got some success and a lot of responsibility, and he's pretty much still entirely focused on Christian! But now that focus is deemed condescending, when, really, it is exactly the same focus as before, and exhibited in basically the same ways -- i.e. "Here's what you should do...and if you don't do it, then I know what's best for you, and I'll just do it on your behalf, because I love you, and I can't deal with you hurting or having less than you deserve, and I can't just sit by and let this happen on it's own, so I will TAKE CONTROL." And it's being deemed overbearing, when, again, it is just as overbearing as it was in the past. This is how Olli is and always has been, and having success in his life hasn't changed him at all, imo.
I get the impression often on this board that quite a few fans don't really like the Olli character, because they seem to judge his obvious and profound flaws as nearly unpardonable, while letting Christian off pretty much free of consequences for his equally profound and obvious flaws. I'm always surprised when I find myself an Olli apologist on this message board because, in general, I'm a much bigger fan of Christian and have a great deal more empathy for him than for Olli, and yet I'm always surprised at how many fans of the couple seem to actually not care much for the real character of Olli at all, and have a kind of "ideal" Olli in their head that they operate from, and then get frustrated when the character actually behaves in character and not as they'd wish him to do.
(And, by the way, tone, this is not directed at you, and I'm not saying that is what you are doing. It is more of an observation of what I see on the board a lot. It is strange that the board, in general, seems skewed towards fans being really biased toward Christian when it comes to the characters, and preferring Jo when it comes to the actors! It is always especially noticeable to me after I've spent time with my best friend who is always on Olli's side and I end up having to defend Christian to her, and then I come back to the board and it is like whiplash!)
ETA: Also, I just re-read your comment, tone, and the last part about Olli acting like Christian has to find a job and a new dream strikes me as not real to what we're seeing on the screen. It seems to me that Olli is in a no-win situation with Christian right now. He encourages him that he will be able to go back to school again as soon as he's healed up, he tells him, basically, that as far as Olli is concerned, getting better is Christian's #1 most important job, and anything else is no big deal. Christian complains that he needs some kind of purpose in his life, something to do with himself, and implies that he needs it now because he's really down without anything to keep him occupied. Olli, knowing that nothing he does right now for Christian is going to be seen in the light with which it was intended, suggests to Stella that she offer Christian a job, and not to tell Christian that it was his idea. There's no reason why Christian would have to accept any job offer from Stella, he could always decline it, and so I really don't understand what the problem is with Olli suggesting it to Stella. If Christian did decline it, and Olli had a problem with that, then I'd be interested in seeing what he had to say about it. I suspect it would be along the lines of, "You're always bitching that you don't have anything to do, and this would at least give you something to do with yourself until you find something you really like!" Basically, the only reason Olli didn't tell Christian what he'd done was because he knows that he can't win with Christian right now, and what he really wants for Christian is not for him to have a new dream or a new job, but for Christian to be getting on any kind of track toward emotional health, and he's also trying to provide Christian with what Christian says he wants. He also probably knows that so long as Christian is sitting around doing nothing, then it's going to be bad on their relationship, because when Christian's in a bad place, Olli takes the brunt of it. Though, it seems many fans seem to think Olli deserves what he gets from Christian, I can't say that I entirely agree. So, yeah, I don't think that Olli is bent on Christian finding a new job and a new dream. I do think Olli is bent on Christian being healthy and well again, in every conceivable way. And he's going about trying to accomplish that (for Christian, and for himself) in a very typical Olli way. Nothing's different about it.
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Nitty
Full Member
I will eat your brains and gain your knowledge...
Posts: 2,085
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Post by Nitty on Aug 7, 2009 22:56:53 GMT -5
Thank you, Ivan, Nanna and Tihkon! Did anyone else notice that the part where Christian blows Olli a kiss and leaves the flat, is missing from Nanna's clip? I wonder why.
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scarpien
Junior Member
Olli & Christian Forever
Posts: 491
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Post by scarpien on Aug 7, 2009 23:21:03 GMT -5
Olli has always been controlling. That is nothing new. Even with the boxing storyline, Olli always made the choices for Christian, even often against his express wishes (interrupting his coming out to Wolle, getting a beard for him, etc) and I don't know if people remarked on it them, since I wasn't involved in the fandom at the time, having come in much later, but there's no doubt that Olli is a control freak, and that Christian likes that about him most of the time. And, btw, I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with that dynamic between them. Christian enjoys being told what to do and Olli enjoys doing the telling. Right now, it might be out of balance, due to so many things in their life, but that's how things go, and I'm sure it will come back to being more in balance, or even with Christian having the reins, at some point in the future. You hit the nail on the head Rhi. It was because of Olli that Christian even applied to the sports college; I'm not sure if Olli suggested he apply, but even after Christian filled out the application he left it on the table in a stamped envelope with the "intention" of mailing it. Apparently, intentions weren't enough for Olli so he mailed it for him. We all know how Christian reacted to that but then he was grateful in the end. So, it was always Olli in the background nudging Christian in the direction Christian never knew he wanted to go--until he got there and realized it was what he wanted all along.
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scarpien
Junior Member
Olli & Christian Forever
Posts: 491
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Post by scarpien on Aug 7, 2009 23:33:23 GMT -5
Eh, I can't really say that I agree with the idea that Christian doesn't often enjoy being told what to do. He almost always at least checks in with someone else before making a decision of any kind at all, and often seems relieved to have someone take the burden of decision making off of his shoulders. In some situations, though, he truly does not like it -- and this current situation is one of them (as was the beard situation and, to some extent, not being 'allowed' to come out to Wolle when he wanted to do so). And just because he isn't enjoying it now doesn't make Olli's behavior in any way different than it always has been with regards to Christian. You mention that what is bugging you about Olli is the NL situation and that you interpret him as being condescending to Christian. Well, I think that he's always been condescending to Christian when he's gone into "caretaker" mode -- check out the clips when he's "soothing" Christian about not coming out, and saying all kinds of things that were really quite condescending. The main difference at that time, I guess, was that Olli was not in a successful place in his life at all. He was a waiter with no dream and no plans and focused entirely on Christian's success as a boxer. Now, he's got some success and a lot of responsibility, and he's pretty much still entirely focused on Christian! But now that focus is deemed condescending, when, really, it is exactly the same focus as before, and exhibited in basically the same ways -- i.e. "Here's what you should do...and if you don't do it, then I know what's best for you, and I'll just do it on your behalf, because I love you, and I can't deal with you hurting or having less than you deserve, and I can't just sit by and let this happen on it's own, so I will TAKE CONTROL." And it's being deemed overbearing, when, again, it is just as overbearing as it was in the past. This is how Olli is and always has been, and having success in his life hasn't changed him at all, imo. I get the impression often on this board that quite a few fans don't really like the Olli character, because they seem to judge his obvious and profound flaws as nearly unpardonable, while letting Christian off pretty much free of consequences for his equally profound and obvious flaws. I'm always surprised when I find myself an Olli apologist on this message board because, in general, I'm a much bigger fan of Christian and have a great deal more empathy for him than for Olli, and yet I'm always surprised at how many fans of the couple seem to actually not care much for the real character of Olli at all, and have a kind of "ideal" Olli in their head that they operate from, and then get frustrated when the character actually behaves in character and not as they'd wish him to do. (And, by the way, tone, this is not directed at you, and I'm not saying that is what you are doing. It is more of an observation of what I see on the board a lot. It is strange that the board, in general, seems skewed towards fans being really biased toward Christian when it comes to the characters, and preferring Jo when it comes to the actors! It is always especially noticeable to me after I've spent time with my best friend who is always on Olli's side and I end up having to defend Christian to her, and then I come back to the board and it is like whiplash!) ETA: Also, I just re-read your comment, tone, and the last part about Olli acting like Christian has to find a job and a new dream strikes me as not real to what we're seeing on the screen. It seems to me that Olli is in a no-win situation with Christian right now. He encourages him that he will be able to go back to school again as soon as he's healed up, he tells him, basically, that as far as Olli is concerned, getting better is Christian's #1 most important job, and anything else is no big deal. Christian complains that he needs some kind of purpose in his life, something to do with himself, and implies that he needs it now because he's really down without anything to keep him occupied. Olli, knowing that nothing he does right now for Christian is going to be seen in the light with which it was intended, suggests to Stella that she offer Christian a job, and not to tell Christian that it was his idea. There's no reason why Christian would have to accept any job offer from Stella, he could always decline it, and so I really don't understand what the problem is with Olli suggesting it to Stella. If Christian did decline it, and Olli had a problem with that, then I'd be interested in seeing what he had to say about it. I suspect it would be along the lines of, "You're always bitching that you don't have anything to do, and this would at least give you something to do with yourself until you find something you really like!" Basically, the only reason Olli didn't tell Christian what he'd done was because he knows that he can't win with Christian right now, and what he really wants for Christian is not for him to have a new dream or a new job, but for Christian to be getting on any kind of track toward emotional health, and he's also trying to provide Christian with what Christian says he wants. He also probably knows that so long as Christian is sitting around doing nothing, then it's going to be bad on their relationship, because when Christian's in a bad place, Olli takes the brunt of it. Though, it seems many fans seem to think Olli deserves what he gets from Christian, I can't say that I entirely agree. So, yeah, I don't think that Olli is bent on Christian finding a new job and a new dream. I do think Olli is bent on Christian being healthy and well again, in every conceivable way. And he's going about trying to accomplish that (for Christian, and for himself) in a very typical Olli way. Nothing's different about it. Very well said. The ONLY difference about Olli's behaviour in these episodes is that Christian is now in a different frame of mind, due to his illness. So, naturally he is interpretting Olli's usual behaviour differently. Tone: are you suggesting that Olli be Christian's doormat just because you're more "attracted" to Christian?
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Post by iyra92 on Aug 7, 2009 23:39:21 GMT -5
Hi everybody!
I think today is the best episode of all 2009 episodes. I only watch it halfway through but I already cry a river! What a birthday gift for me! I think the way Olli acts make sense and what make me cry happily is they talk about Christian sport/study/job calmly. Oh... they are sooo lovely. TQ VL team for this episode. TQ Nanna, Tihkon & Ivan for everything you all done!
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 8, 2009 0:09:13 GMT -5
Olli has always been controlling. That is nothing new. Even with the boxing storyline, Olli always made the choices for Christian, even often against his express wishes (interrupting his coming out to Wolle, getting a beard for him, etc) and I don't know if people remarked on it them, since I wasn't involved in the fandom at the time, having come in much later, but there's no doubt that Olli is a control freak, and that Christian likes that about him most of the time. And, btw, I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with that dynamic between them. Christian enjoys being told what to do and Olli enjoys doing the telling. Right now, it might be out of balance, due to so many things in their life, but that's how things go, and I'm sure it will come back to being more in balance, or even with Christian having the reins, at some point in the future. You hit the nail on the head Rhi. It was because of Olli that Christian even applied to the sports college; I'm not sure if Olli suggested he apply, but even after Christian filled out the application he left it on the table in a stamped envelope with the "intention" of mailing it. Apparently, intentions weren't enough for Olli so he mailed it for him. We all know how Christian reacted to that but then he was grateful in the end. So, it was always Olli in the background nudging Christian in the direction Christian never knew he wanted to go--until he got there and realized it was what he wanted all along. His reaction was that he was pissed that Olli did it behind his back. Just like he wasn't happy here that Olli did it behind his back. I do agree that in a way this is Christian's flaw, but to me the flaw here is that precisely he actually doesn't like to be told what to do/doesn't actually follow when somebody tells him what to do. If Olli had just told him to talk to Stella or had just told him to go to sports college, do you really think Christian would have done it because he likes being told what to do? My guess is that he would have just procrastinated more. IMO, he doesn't like being told what to do. He likes being teased into what to do, but he doesn't like somebody straight up telling him. That's why the relationship is having more problems now, because Olli now less frequently bothers/has time for cushioning the steering. Christian might like some subtle steering, but he doesn't like somebody just stepping in at all. As mona said in a different topic, he still very much at least wants the illusion of being the macho part of the relationship. And I think mentally he is looking more for a subtle/wise supporting and loving wife type rather than a "daddy". (which doesn't mean that he doesn't also want Olli as a partner, but it seems to me that at least part of the many motivations come from this, since IMO Olli seemed to be making a ton of emotional progress with Christian when he managed to hit those notes) Also, I really don't think Olli came off as condescending at all in the supposedly comparable outing situation. He came across as trying to make things fit for Christian and the tone the scenes were played with were much more tender and vulnerable. The scenes felt like Olli was sharing something personal about himself even as he stayed vague (a scene that comes to my mind is the one where Christian is pissed because Gregor "overheard" Christian's outing; here Olli felt pretty small even as he was making jokes and talking things down). It seems to me that Christian was more fine with Olli running his life as long as Olli at least outwardly deferred to Christian (this is about what you want, take your time, it's about your feelings and your career), but he doesn't find it pleasant or enjoyable at all if Olli doesn't do that. It seems to me that Christian usually started off reacting badly and Olli "bought" the control usually by showing/displaying some weakness on his own. When he doesn't do it, Christian usually remains pissy longer (and it is noteworthy when Christian himself seems to conciously try to steer against these tendencies of his like after the situation with the critic the making up feels a lot less true and final to me, more like he would have remembered that rather than him truly letting it go). So in that sense it does seem to me that Christian actually clearly doesn't like the feeling of being taken advantage of and Olli usually has to assuage that feeling by showing some weakness of his own. Also, I think if Christian truly enjoyed his life being run by outside forces then I don't think that we would have gotten things like Christian getting drunk and acting out. To me that points to him very much wanting to act out against losing control in his life and it is noteworthy that he did that rather than seek out Olli to defer control to him. Which to me says that he doesn't like it when Olli is like that. I don't think that Olli is "evil" for his control tendencies. I guess I just don't buy that they are really a good fit for Christian and that hence they are a happy making thing at all. Sure Christian's temper is a problem, but it seems to be a good fit for Olli so far, because so far Olli seems to be pretty good at brushing things off or at being good at telling what to take serious and what to not take too much to heart. Of course another problem is that we have a much clearer idea of Christian's emotional side of the story. We see his problems, we have a much clearer idea of what he is looking for. Olli stays pretty closed up even to us viewers. We don't really know what he truly feels underneath. We see glimpses of it, for example in the blog, but I still say we have very little idea how big it is or how serious it is. Right now we know that Christian is unhappy. But we don't know for sure how content or not content Olli is when for example Christian accuses him of things during a fight. Or whether we for example him joking about Miriam means that he truly doesn't care that he can joke about it, that he is happy about it because he has something to hold of Christian's head or whether he was genuinely hurt by it. Even if we see him unhappy, like for example in the blog, I wouldn't say for sure that a Christian who is less tempramental or the opposite, more forcefully in getting Olli to admit to his problems would be really what Olli wants. Generally, let's put it this way. Let's say I'm Christian and due to my own fault I have a root canal and I know the tooth has to be taken out. So I know that that means that I need a dentist in my life that will take that tooth out. But that doesn't mean that I'm gonna love a dentist who takes a sledgehammer to my face when there are plenty of dentists out there who would take my tooth out with the most modern and noninvasive equipment, who have a steady hand and give him awesome medication for it. The butcher dentist might still think of himself that I should be grateful and after all he is taking care of my problem. Which doesn't change that in real life I wouldn't avoid him like the pest if in any way possible, that I wouldn't tell him to maybe tone down the sledgehammer (if I couldn't just have a different dentist) or that I wouldn't most likely go out and find a better dentist. Not to mention that even an idiot with a root canal can hope for at least some standards like the dentists washing their hands. It just seem strange to me that just because one might want the end result (like the tooth out) that that is also supposed to mean that one has to accept and like and love any attitude. When there have been plenty of instances of Christian imo genuinely not liking the attitude at all. (and I do mean genuinely, not just fake complaining to uphold some standard of masculinity, I mean genuinely not being happy about it) Generally, I guess I see both are equal flaws. I don't think that one is necessarily more harmless or more dangerous than the other. It seems obvious that both would like their flaw to triumph and probably think that their way would lead to a successful relationship. For Olli that relationship would probably look like "why can't Christian just stop being stubborn and be happy and accepting?" and Christian probably thinks that the "wise wife" arrangement worked really well (and I tend to be on Christian's side a bit more in this, not because I think that his view is more healthy (I don't think it is) but because IMO I think that is what Olli sold to him when they entered the relationship; and I'm just not a fan of sneaking things in covertly; IMO I don't think that one should require and request Olli to act like that for the rest of his life if it goes against his nature (but the same thing should go for Christian), but I think Christian has more room to say that this isn't what he signed up for (and no, I don't buy all the "but deeeeeep down he knew it", to me that goes way too much into creepy "I decide when your "no" counts or doesn't). IMO in reality Christian should want Olli to speak his mind openly AND Olli should want Christian to make his decisions freely. IMO that would be grand love on both their parts. But again, to me both flaws are equal. If Olli displays more control Christian displays more grumpiness. The way to dissolve the situation would require both of them to step back a bit. Not necessarily for Christian to just give up and Olli gets to live his flaws fully why Christian's doesn't. Nor would the other version be better if it goes against Olli's nature/instincts. But I guess I just don't see Olli as the poor helpless victim of Christian's grumpy attitude (and if then no more than Christian being Olli's "victim" in regards to being controlled). To me both are still equal in this this, even if it is currently mostly about them being locked into their flaws.
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Post by iyra92 on Aug 8, 2009 0:44:11 GMT -5
Christian blows Olli a kiss and leaves the flat not just missing from Nanna's clip but also missing from Ivan's caps. Wonder why??
About Rebecca's phone call : I second Ivan. Beside, I think after embarrassed & stupid party acts that he really regret Christian might want to stay away for a while from party! at least without Olli present.
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Post by lolaruns on Aug 8, 2009 2:00:20 GMT -5
Thought: I guess it just seems strange to me to see people say that Christian seems like he takes Olli for granted, when I see it more the other way around. Olli just taking for granted that he knows what's best for Christian.
And while there was a time where I truly bought that Olli was that in tune with Christian's emotions that I could have been sold on the idea that he knew Christian more than himself, most of the recent interactions have been very random and casual to me, with very little true heartfeltness.
And to me isn't that taking Christian for granted and selling him short? I pegged him down once and now I don't ever have to look at him again because I know what is best for him forever? Isn't that pretty presumtuous since it assumes that Christian is incapable of changing or having his own ideas and that after the initial effort to snag him he isn't worth a second look and evaluation?
I guess to me indicating that Olli alone gets to decide when Christian's No means No (and defending that as justified) smacks way too much "She smiled at me once at the bus so of course she truly wanted me to stalk her, ruin her life and completely take over and only I get to decide when she truly no longer wants it".
Not to mention that if we look at Christian's previous relationships with Coco and Nico it seems pretty obvious that his ideal relationship goes more into the direction of being with an equal partner where both stand up for themselves. And that he initially fell for Olli not because Olli offered him control but because Olli sold to him that he had all these positive and ideal characteristics even though he was a man and that it would be wrong to ignore that just because of smallminded thinking. At least that is how the Ollian falling in love story came across to me. Not as Christian wanting somebody to take over his life.
Isn't that what Christian talked about in his first major emotional declaration and probably the most he has ever talked on the subject, that what he loved about Olli was how this gave him, Christian, strenght and dignity? And I'm supposed to root for Christian to go along with an Olli to wants to control Christian aka doesn't want him to have the strenght to make his own decision? Aka root for what would essentially fundamentally undermine what Christian deeply loved about the relationship? And to me there is nothing that goes more against strenght and dignity than not allowing somebody the dignity of making their own choices or not wanting them to have or build the strenght to do so. And while it might be possible that there are people out there who have no interest in strenght or dignity, it seems pretty obvious that Christian is not one of those people. And not only that, it is something he fundamentally cared about and loved about Olli.
So not only am I supposed to buy into the idea of an Olli who doesn't want Christian to flourish and grow and make his own decisions, I'm actually supposed to find that a good thing? Wouldn't that be pretty much a deception and betrayal of Christian and undermine what made this a love story? So basically all that Christian fell in love with was all lies?
I don't believe that. But as you can see this is why I have trouble dealing with this particular mindset. I might buy that Olli can have control tendencies (though I still don't buy a blanket portrayal of Olli as a control freak since just like with Christian I don't see how that is justified by his previous eternal drifter history, his being sucked into drug/debt situation or his relationship with Tom; Imo Olli has always gotten most controlling when he was the most insecure, for example throwing tantrums when Ulli came to town and Olli sensed that Ulli was still special to Tom), but it's definitely the kind I'm rooting for him to get over and give up rather than me rooting for him to get to indulge in it. I don't think it's good for him or the relationship, nor do I buy that it is what Christian wants from Olli.
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Post by ivaniv on Aug 8, 2009 3:07:26 GMT -5
Christian blows Olli a kiss and leaves the flat not just missing from Nanna's clip but also missing from Ivan's caps. Wonder why?? There's no evil plan in that, it's a technical problem. Any fast move in a video results in a blurry screencap, I tried my best to cap it, but it always turned out shit, so I skipped it at the end. But it's included in my video. As for blogs always being Olli talking about Christian, well it has to be, Christian is the most exciting thing in his life. Owning NL is a dream come true for him, but it translates into a daily routine that is not so exciting to talk about.
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Post by iyra92 on Aug 8, 2009 3:15:58 GMT -5
I'm sorry if i offend you Ivan. That's explain it then.
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Post by ivaniv on Aug 8, 2009 3:30:48 GMT -5
You did not offend me, I just wanted to explain. I don't take sides in this story to the point of disliking one of them, I like them both. If something does not appear in the caps, it's either because it's a technical problem or I made so many that I overlooked something. BTW if you ask within an hour or two after I posted them while I still have the file on my laptop, I can make additional caps
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sylstyle
Senior Member
merci Flo
Posts: 6,299
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Post by sylstyle on Aug 8, 2009 4:18:11 GMT -5
Hi, First thank you Ivan, Nanna and Tihkon as always you did a great job. So thanks I would like also to thank everyone else here since yesterday with their great analysis. There are some points I'd never thought about it. And thanks to you all it helps me to understand them in a better way. To me, we shouldn't blame neither Olli nor Christian as their lines are due to the writings. I think that writers have in hands a very beautiful story, but at the same time it's very difficult for them. They indeed have to come up with great storylines but it's hard to keep the attention of viewers so they do some mistakes, and they cannot please everyone. I like them both and I tend to forgive them their current behaviors, because to me it's not like Christian and Olli are saying these things, but it come from the writings. Concerning Olli and his current attitude towards Christian, I think that it's very difficult for him to deal with it. My oncle and aunt lost their 2 kids and at the beginning for me it was hard to know what to say, how to react, what should be my best behaviour. Only a genius or God knows how to cope with it. And I think it's the same for Olli. At the very begining he was scared to lose Chris, now I think he is trying to "push" Christian to change is mind till he can come back to his dream. Olli is someone optimistic and he thinks that if Christian has a day full of activities he will come out of the dark. However I would like also to see Olli more careful towards Christian fellings. Maybe he should take a day off and go out with Christian, talk to him and let him speak free like at the firecamp. I tend to think that currently they speak less than before. Let's not also forget that Olli is older than Christian. He maybe had dreams that collapsed or that some did not survive and tries to teach him how to go on on life with his own experiments. Sylvain
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Pedris2
Full Member
Hope dies last
Posts: 1,987
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Post by Pedris2 on Aug 8, 2009 4:29:40 GMT -5
Hi, First thank you Ivan, Nanna and Tihkon as always you did a great job. So thanks I would like also to thank everyone else here since yesterday with their great analysis. There are some points I'd never thought about it. And thanks to you all it helps me to understand them in a better way. To me, we shouldn't blame neither Olli nor Christian as their lines are due to the writings. I think that writers have in hands a very beautiful story, but at the same time it's very difficult for them. They indeed have to come up with great storylines but it's hard to keep the attention of viewers so they do some mistakes, and they cannot please everyone. I like them both and I tend to forgive them their current behaviors, because to me it's not like Christian and Olli are saying these things, but it come from the writings. Concerning Olli and his current attitude towards Christian, I think that it's very difficult for him to deal with it. My oncle and aunt lost their 2 kids and at the beginning for me it was hard to know what to say, how to react, what should be my best behaviour. Only a genius or God knows how to cope with it. And I think it's the same for Olli. At the very begining he was scared to lose Chris, now I think he is trying to "push" Christian to change is mind till he can come back to his dream. Olli is someone optimistic and he thinks that if Christian has a day full of activities he will come out of the dark. However I would like also to see Olli more careful towards Christian fellings. Maybe he should take a day off and go out with Christian, talk to him and let him speak free like at the firecamp. I tend to think that currently they speak less than before. Let's not also forget that Olli is older than Christian. He maybe had dreams that collapsed or that some did not survive and tries to teach him how to go on on life with his own experiments. Sylvain This is very well written, totally with you on all agree, especially the last paragraph.
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Post by iyra92 on Aug 8, 2009 4:39:41 GMT -5
You did not offend me, I just wanted to explain. I don't take sides in this story to the point of disliking one of them, I like them both. If something does not appear in the caps, it's either because it's a technical problem or I made so many that I overlooked something. BTW if you ask within an hour or two after I posted them while I still have the file on my laptop, I can make additional caps It's very nice of you for saying that Ivan. I second you Ivan - as I also can't choose between Christian & Olli. Just watching any episode with only one of them really unsatisfied. Oh..I wish I could ask for addition caps but due to time different, only after 4 to 7 hours it posted we here are able to watch/get my eyes on it. Well, nevermind. I'm greatful to you none the less.
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sylstyle
Senior Member
merci Flo
Posts: 6,299
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Post by sylstyle on Aug 8, 2009 4:44:09 GMT -5
Hi, First thank you Ivan, Nanna and Tihkon as always you did a great job. So thanks I would like also to thank everyone else here since yesterday with their great analysis. There are some points I'd never thought about it. And thanks to you all it helps me to understand them in a better way. To me, we shouldn't blame neither Olli nor Christian as their lines are due to the writings. I think that writers have in hands a very beautiful story, but at the same time it's very difficult for them. They indeed have to come up with great storylines but it's hard to keep the attention of viewers so they do some mistakes, and they cannot please everyone. I like them both and I tend to forgive them their current behaviors, because to me it's not like Christian and Olli are saying these things, but it come from the writings. Concerning Olli and his current attitude towards Christian, I think that it's very difficult for him to deal with it. My oncle and aunt lost their 2 kids and at the beginning for me it was hard to know what to say, how to react, what should be my best behaviour. Only a genius or God knows how to cope with it. And I think it's the same for Olli. At the very begining he was scared to lose Chris, now I think he is trying to "push" Christian to change is mind till he can come back to his dream. Olli is someone optimistic and he thinks that if Christian has a day full of activities he will come out of the dark. However I would like also to see Olli more careful towards Christian fellings. Maybe he should take a day off and go out with Christian, talk to him and let him speak free like at the firecamp. I tend to think that currently they speak less than before. Let's not also forget that Olli is older than Christian. He maybe had dreams that collapsed or that some did not survive and tries to teach him how to go on on life with his own experiments. Sylvain This is very well written, totally with you on all agree, especially the last paragraph. Thanks Actually yesterday I was watching VIB and I felt on episodes when Hugo Hass (Hubertus Regout) lost his wife. And to see how other characters were dealing with it. It made me think of Olli behaviour and maybe also his difficulties to face it. Sylvain
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Post by rhiannonhero on Aug 8, 2009 7:07:07 GMT -5
In this respect, Lola, I completely agree with you. As I said in my comment, they both have very real flaws, both sets of flaws are equal in my opinion, and, also imo, Christian's set of flaws seems to more often get a pass on this board, and, thus, I tend to turn into an Olli apologist here. That doesn't mean that I think the way Olli behaves makes for a perfect love. It does make for a realistic love, imo, though. I partially agree with you about Christian and control, but it is too subtle an agreement (and too subtle of a disagreement) to go into here, because a) language barrier issues where what I mean by one word may not equal what the general understanding of that word is, and b) I don't really care enough to take the time to go into it deeply. So my partial agreement is what I offer and will keep my partial disagreement as just a side note: I think Christian often enjoys being told what to do, and I think that when he doesn't enjoy it, he really doesn't, and, what I agree with is that, for Christian, presentation of that control counts. What I disagree with is that he doesn't enjoy being bossed around a bit by his "wise wife". I'm assuming that comment is directed at other people who aren't me, because I certainly never indicated anything like that at all, and I definitely didn't justify Olli's behavior, and I said that he (and his behavior) is deeply flawed. I can understand given the no-win situation he's in why he would do what he did, but that doesn't make it an ideal behavior, but it is a realistic one given his circumstances, imo. If that is "justifying" his behavior, it is only to the extent that it seems realistic to me given his nature, his character, and his circumstances. Language issue. Control freak is used quite casually to describe someone who takes control of situations when under pressure. I think that since returning from the cruise ship, that describes Olli, yes. a) I don't buy that Olli doesn't want Christian to flourish and grow b) If I did buy that, which I don't, I wouldn't find that a good thing, and I wouldn't suggest that anyone would I think the eternal drifter is because of the control tendencies which are, as you say, due to insecurity on his part. So, the more controlling he is, the more insecure he is, imo. That means, to me, that right now he's pretty insecure in his situation. That would be a great thing for him to get rid of, sure, I can agree with that. Though, again: a) I never said he should be indulged in it, but understood -- different thing b) rooting to get rid of it is one thing, because to get rid of it, it would have to be understood, but essentially what I see on this board are people rooting for Olli to get rid of his flaws (in this case insecurities and the result of his insecurities) while utterly indulging Christian's flaws, insecurities, and resultant behaviors (and I mean this outside of this health storyline, even) and that seems to me, ultimately, unfair, and thus, despite being, personally, on Christian's side, I always find myself defending Olli on this board, because it seems to me that people on the board in general don't really like the character. I'd simply like to see more Olli-empathy on the board because it is so skewed toward Christian's pov. (And not Olli as a saint, either, because we do get some of that, but he's no saint.) I suppose I'm one of the few who actually thinks they are both awesome characters with terrific flaws and who fit well together despite them, and, at times, because of them. I must also be one of the few people who thinks that having soap characters react realistically and within the framework of the personalities that have been created for them is to be applauded instead of trying to get the character's to change their personalities to something we'd like better. In relationships, people have rough times because they don't fit perfectly together, but that doesn't make their love not grand, but simply real and human-sized -- which, imo, is grand enough. But, ugh, that's all I've got to say about this. I've expressed all that I want to on the matter now, and don't want to get pulled into a long and pointless discussion where comments are attributed that I never said, or where I assume things are directed at me which might not have been. Or, as is often the case, I said one thing meaning it one way, and it is interpreted to mean any number of different and inaccurate things. See above for several cases in point. It's too exhausting and I've got a sick child today, so...priorities. Later gators.
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scarpien
Junior Member
Olli & Christian Forever
Posts: 491
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Post by scarpien on Aug 8, 2009 8:52:19 GMT -5
Christian blows Olli a kiss and leaves the flat not just missing from Nanna's clip but also missing from Ivan's caps. Wonder why?? There's no evil plan in that, it's a technical problem. Any fast move in a video results in a blurry screencap, I tried my best to cap it, but it always turned out shit, so I skipped it at the end. But it's included in my video. As for blogs always being Olli talking about Christian, well it has to be, Christian is the most exciting thing in his life. Owning NL is a dream come true for him, but it translates into a daily routine that is not so exciting to talk about.But the way I see it the blog HAS to be about Olli talking about his life in Dusseldorf since the whole pretense under which the blog was started was Olli sending weekly shouts out to his friends in Ibiza just to keep them up-to-date about his life since leaving Ibiza. Since Christian has yet to met Olli's friends, why would Christian be the one talking? Since they are Olli's friends he is letting them "meet" Christian via the blogs.
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Post by mona on Aug 8, 2009 8:53:02 GMT -5
I can't see Olli as the controlling type because of his tone when he talked to Stella. It was absolutely sweet but also unsure. He just heard Christian saying, that he can't be in the flatshare the whole day and of course he wants to help. It's not like he said "Stella, Christian is getting on my nerves, give him a job". I think as much as Olli is acting like a "Mutti" here, as much is Christian acting a little bit like a kid. (and deep down he's happy Olli is doing this) I think there's at least a balance. There were times when Olli seemed like a child (NL story) and Christian was the more "grown up" who was sweet with Olli. Or when Olli was sick his "go to bed", also a little bit "Mutti". I'm sure if it was the other way around Christian would also do a lot to help Olli. So, it's the situation and not their own flaws. This is Christians problem right now and he would react like that no matter what people do. Like Olli would freak when he was in Christians situation. I think that's why many people wished for a story about Olli, to lose that pattern. Just look at Christian/Coco. When Coco lost her job, Christian was also trying to give her at least something, offering her to work at NL and she was all "Don't you get it?". Christian was mad then but that's exactly what Olli is doing better in this case. IMO Olli is perfectly doing it. He's giving Christian space for his problems, he isn't making a drama out of his freakouts, because he doesn't want to give Christian more problems. And even if it's too much for Christian right now, it's not easier for Olli. (Olli needed a person like that in his drug carrier phase and it would've been a lot easier for him)
The last scene was absolutely sweet when Olli was glad about Christians little success. He would do anything to make Christian smile in this situation. And that he has this "My Chrissie baby" way isn't new. When Christian had problems he was always acting that way (His way of protecting where Christian is protecting in the "macho way") I'm glad Christian can "take that", it also shows his love for Olli, that he let's him to be that way I think. It's hard for him to let people close in this phase. He knows he can rely on Olli and I think I even liked one thing very much in this episode, the talking. It wasn't the big relationship talk but I liked it.
I would find a lot creepier if Olli wouldn't act like he does now. His stress was shown in NL, he has to do a lot to bring it all under control.
IMO Christian is even a little bit more controlling with his freakouts. Most of the times, he's making the decisions (when to make up etc. letting Olli in the air with fights for one night and so on). Right now Christian is making the rules, when they can be fluffy, when he's grumpy etc. But that's also normal. When he's coming to NL, Olli has to be there for him (being surprised Olli isn't noticing him)
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scarpien
Junior Member
Olli & Christian Forever
Posts: 491
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Post by scarpien on Aug 8, 2009 9:21:11 GMT -5
His reaction was that he was pissed that Olli did it behind his back. Just like he wasn't happy here that Olli did it behind his back. I do agree that in a way this is Christian's flaw, but to me the flaw here is that precisely he actually doesn't like to be told what to do/doesn't actually follow when somebody tells him what to do. If Olli had just told him to talk to Stella or had just told him to go to sports college, do you really think Christian would have done it because he likes being told what to do? My guess is that he would have just procrastinated more. IMO, he doesn't like being told what to do. He likes being teased into what to do, but he doesn't like somebody straight up telling him. That's why the relationship is having more problems now, because Olli now less frequently bothers/has time for cushioning the steering. Christian might like some subtle steering, but he doesn't like somebody just stepping in at all. As mona said in a different topic, he still very much at least wants the illusion of being the macho part of the relationship. And I think mentally he is looking more for a subtle/wise supporting and loving wife type rather than a "daddy". (which doesn't mean that he doesn't also want Olli as a partner, but it seems to me that at least part of the many motivations come from this, since IMO Olli seemed to be making a ton of emotional progress with Christian when he managed to hit those notes) Also, I really don't think Olli came off as condescending at all in the supposedly comparable outing situation. He came across as trying to make things fit for Christian and the tone the scenes were played with were much more tender and vulnerable. The scenes felt like Olli was sharing something personal about himself even as he stayed vague (a scene that comes to my mind is the one where Christian is pissed because Gregor "overheard" Christian's outing; here Olli felt pretty small even as he was making jokes and talking things down). It seems to me that Christian was more fine with Olli running his life as long as Olli at least outwardly deferred to Christian (this is about what you want, take your time, it's about your feelings and your career), but he doesn't find it pleasant or enjoyable at all if Olli doesn't do that. It seems to me that Christian usually started off reacting badly and Olli "bought" the control usually by showing/displaying some weakness on his own. When he doesn't do it, Christian usually remains pissy longer (and it is noteworthy when Christian himself seems to conciously try to steer against these tendencies of his like after the situation with the critic the making up feels a lot less true and final to me, more like he would have remembered that rather than him truly letting it go). So in that sense it does seem to me that Christian actually clearly doesn't like the feeling of being taken advantage of and Olli usually has to assuage that feeling by showing some weakness of his own. Also, I think if Christian truly enjoyed his life being run by outside forces then I don't think that we would have gotten things like Christian getting drunk and acting out. To me that points to him very much wanting to act out against losing control in his life and it is noteworthy that he did that rather than seek out Olli to defer control to him. Which to me says that he doesn't like it when Olli is like that. I don't think that Olli is "evil" for his control tendencies. I guess I just don't buy that they are really a good fit for Christian and that hence they are a happy making thing at all. Sure Christian's temper is a problem, but it seems to be a good fit for Olli so far, because so far Olli seems to be pretty good at brushing things off or at being good at telling what to take serious and what to not take too much to heart. Of course another problem is that we have a much clearer idea of Christian's emotional side of the story. We see his problems, we have a much clearer idea of what he is looking for. Olli stays pretty closed up even to us viewers. We don't really know what he truly feels underneath. We see glimpses of it, for example in the blog, but I still say we have very little idea how big it is or how serious it is. Right now we know that Christian is unhappy. But we don't know for sure how content or not content Olli is when for example Christian accuses him of things during a fight. Or whether we for example him joking about Miriam means that he truly doesn't care that he can joke about it, that he is happy about it because he has something to hold of Christian's head or whether he was genuinely hurt by it. Even if we see him unhappy, like for example in the blog, I wouldn't say for sure that a Christian who is less tempramental or the opposite, more forcefully in getting Olli to admit to his problems would be really what Olli wants. Generally, let's put it this way. Let's say I'm Christian and due to my own fault I have a root canal and I know the tooth has to be taken out. So I know that that means that I need a dentist in my life that will take that tooth out. But that doesn't mean that I'm gonna love a dentist who takes a sledgehammer to my face when there are plenty of dentists out there who would take my tooth out with the most modern and noninvasive equipment, who have a steady hand and give him awesome medication for it. The butcher dentist might still think of himself that I should be grateful and after all he is taking care of my problem. Which doesn't change that in real life I wouldn't avoid him like the pest if in any way possible, that I wouldn't tell him to maybe tone down the sledgehammer (if I couldn't just have a different dentist) or that I wouldn't most likely go out and find a better dentist. Not to mention that even an idiot with a root canal can hope for at least some standards like the dentists washing their hands. It just seem strange to me that just because one might want the end result (like the tooth out) that that is also supposed to mean that one has to accept and like and love any attitude. When there have been plenty of instances of Christian imo genuinely not liking the attitude at all. (and I do mean genuinely, not just fake complaining to uphold some standard of masculinity, I mean genuinely not being happy about it) Generally, I guess I see both are equal flaws. I don't think that one is necessarily more harmless or more dangerous than the other. It seems obvious that both would like their flaw to triumph and probably think that their way would lead to a successful relationship. For Olli that relationship would probably look like "why can't Christian just stop being stubborn and be happy and accepting?" and Christian probably thinks that the "wise wife" arrangement worked really well (and I tend to be on Christian's side a bit more in this, not because I think that his view is more healthy (I don't think it is) but because IMO I think that is what Olli sold to him when they entered the relationship; and I'm just not a fan of sneaking things in covertly; IMO I don't think that one should require and request Olli to act like that for the rest of his life if it goes against his nature (but the same thing should go for Christian), but I think Christian has more room to say that this isn't what he signed up for (and no, I don't buy all the "but deeeeeep down he knew it", to me that goes way too much into creepy "I decide when your "no" counts or doesn't). IMO in reality Christian should want Olli to speak his mind openly AND Olli should want Christian to make his decisions freely. IMO that would be grand love on both their parts. But again, to me both flaws are equal. If Olli displays more control Christian displays more grumpiness. The way to dissolve the situation would require both of them to step back a bit. Not necessarily for Christian to just give up and Olli gets to live his flaws fully why Christian's doesn't. Nor would the other version be better if it goes against Olli's nature/instincts. But I guess I just don't see Olli as the poor helpless victim of Christian's grumpy attitude (and if then no more than Christian being Olli's "victim" in regards to being controlled). To me both are still equal in this this, even if it is currently mostly about them being locked into their flaws. What I like about Olli and Christian, and it's been said many times, is that they're written so realisticly. I see some of myself in both characters so I can relate to both POV. As for Olli selling a certain mindset to Christian and then "changing:" that is what's so realistic about the characters. They truly do mirror the real world. In the real world couples date, romance each other and then get married. After the "I-dos" over time they seem to change. The man no longer romances his wife and the wife no longer is so understanding, etc. That's real life. When that happens, a friend of mine likes to say "honey, the honeymoon's over!!" Unfortunate as it is, no one really stays the same; we all change over time with each life experience, and trials. That's to be expected, and VL shows that. So I like that both Christian and Olli have their flaws. Like Christian I don't like being told what to do either, but UNLIKE Christian, I don't procrastinate when it comes to going after my dreams. However, like Olli I'm sort of a control freak (and it has nothing to do with insecurities) only because I hate indecisiveness in people, and to me Christian comes off a bit indecisive at times. Which is why I can understand why Olli steps in and takes control. Not saying it is right, but given the character representations it fits each character. And for those who'd say that that isn't what Christian signed up for, in Olli's defense I'd say that there's no way you can show all of your "tru colors" if the precursor to that particular side of your character isn't present. This is why it "appears" that people change the more you get to know them. It's only because as you experience more of life together you get a more clearer picture of the person. Ask any couple who's been married 20+ years and they'd tell you even though they know their mate pretty well they still learn something new about them every day, it seems. The good thing about humans is that we're not one-dimensional, and that's what I like about the VL characters.
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Post by jj8899 on Aug 8, 2009 10:18:35 GMT -5
Eh, I can't really say that I agree with the idea that Christian doesn't often enjoy being told what to do. He almost always at least checks in with someone else before making a decision of any kind at all, and often seems relieved to have someone take the burden of decision making off of his shoulders. In some situations, though, he truly does not like it -- and this current situation is one of them (as was the beard situation and, to some extent, not being 'allowed' to come out to Wolle when he wanted to do so). And just because he isn't enjoying it now doesn't make Olli's behavior in any way different than it always has been with regards to Christian. You mention that what is bugging you about Olli is the NL situation and that you interpret him as being condescending to Christian. Well, I think that he's always been condescending to Christian when he's gone into "caretaker" mode -- check out the clips when he's "soothing" Christian about not coming out, and saying all kinds of things that were really quite condescending. The main difference at that time, I guess, was that Olli was not in a successful place in his life at all. He was a waiter with no dream and no plans and focused entirely on Christian's success as a boxer. Now, he's got some success and a lot of responsibility, and he's pretty much still entirely focused on Christian! But now that focus is deemed condescending, when, really, it is exactly the same focus as before, and exhibited in basically the same ways -- i.e. "Here's what you should do...and if you don't do it, then I know what's best for you, and I'll just do it on your behalf, because I love you, and I can't deal with you hurting or having less than you deserve, and I can't just sit by and let this happen on it's own, so I will TAKE CONTROL." And it's being deemed overbearing, when, again, it is just as overbearing as it was in the past. This is how Olli is and always has been, and having success in his life hasn't changed him at all, imo. I get the impression often on this board that quite a few fans don't really like the Olli character, because they seem to judge his obvious and profound flaws as nearly unpardonable, while letting Christian off pretty much free of consequences for his equally profound and obvious flaws. I'm always surprised when I find myself an Olli apologist on this message board because, in general, I'm a much bigger fan of Christian and have a great deal more empathy for him than for Olli, and yet I'm always surprised at how many fans of the couple seem to actually not care much for the real character of Olli at all, and have a kind of "ideal" Olli in their head that they operate from, and then get frustrated when the character actually behaves in character and not as they'd wish him to do.
(And, by the way, tone, this is not directed at you, and I'm not saying that is what you are doing. It is more of an observation of what I see on the board a lot. It is strange that the board, in general, seems skewed towards fans being really biased toward Christian when it comes to the characters, and preferring Jo when it comes to the actors! It is always especially noticeable to me after I've spent time with my best friend who is always on Olli's side and I end up having to defend Christian to her, and then I come back to the board and it is like whiplash!)
ETA: Also, I just re-read your comment, tone, and the last part about Olli acting like Christian has to find a job and a new dream strikes me as not real to what we're seeing on the screen. It seems to me that Olli is in a no-win situation with Christian right now. He encourages him that he will be able to go back to school again as soon as he's healed up, he tells him, basically, that as far as Olli is concerned, getting better is Christian's #1 most important job, and anything else is no big deal. Christian complains that he needs some kind of purpose in his life, something to do with himself, and implies that he needs it now because he's really down without anything to keep him occupied. Olli, knowing that nothing he does right now for Christian is going to be seen in the light with which it was intended, suggests to Stella that she offer Christian a job, and not to tell Christian that it was his idea. There's no reason why Christian would have to accept any job offer from Stella, he could always decline it, and so I really don't understand what the problem is with Olli suggesting it to Stella. If Christian did decline it, and Olli had a problem with that, then I'd be interested in seeing what he had to say about it. I suspect it would be along the lines of, "You're always bitching that you don't have anything to do, and this would at least give you something to do with yourself until you find something you really like!" Basically, the only reason Olli didn't tell Christian what he'd done was because he knows that he can't win with Christian right now, and what he really wants for Christian is not for him to have a new dream or a new job, but for Christian to be getting on any kind of track toward emotional health, and he's also trying to provide Christian with what Christian says he wants. He also probably knows that so long as Christian is sitting around doing nothing, then it's going to be bad on their relationship, because when Christian's in a bad place, Olli takes the brunt of it. Though, it seems many fans seem to think Olli deserves what he gets from Christian, I can't say that I entirely agree. So, yeah, I don't think that Olli is bent on Christian finding a new job and a new dream. I do think Olli is bent on Christian being healthy and well again, in every conceivable way. And he's going about trying to accomplish that (for Christian, and for himself) in a very typical Olli way. Nothing's different about it. this is so true - for me at least. and i've been thinking about it recently. i don't out and out hate the olli character but certainly there are things about him that bug me, and i don't cut as much slack as i do with the christian character. it's fascinating to me because it's something i've been thinking about a lot recently and over a long period of time. these are entirely my own opinions and i don't imagine anyone else to share them: i don't know why, but it's when olli is more noticeably 'camp' (god how i hate that word!) than christian, or takes an overly nurturing (sometimes to the point of controlling) role that i get the little pinches of annoyance. and to be annoyed by those aspects of his character is ridiculous: 1) because i myself have been mercilessly teased at junior school for being 'camp' (or obviously gay, whatever you want to call it ) 2) because there is nothing that he's doing should annoy me. but it does. and when i notice this in myself i notice it in other sections of the gay community. as i've got older i've noticed a lot of bitching goes on about certain different types of gay men and i've been to places in london, gay bars - where there is a stigma attached to walking in with a queen on your arm. i mean i'm not saying olli annoys me because he's more overt with his sexuality than christian. maybe, there's a little part of me that's still sort of stuck in that tiresome cycle of self-hate and the character of olli just touches a nerve for some reason. maybe it's just me. i can't even get out what i'm saying because i'm really uneasy about voicing my opinion on this. i love olli almost all the time, and he is full of wonderful virtues and flaws that make him very realistic, i'm just very aware that i prefer the christian character - and how ever much i'm ashamed to admit the reasons why, i do know them. thought i'd share. because what rhiannon pointed out was interesting because i noticed myself always siding with christian and i was wondering why before she said it. (plus, i think christian's more stereotypically 'heterosexual' qualities certainly highlight olli's... differences - oh and i don't like the way olli's wardrobe is going but that's an issue i could harp on about for hours so i won't (although C&O used to dress similarly and now, well - they don't ;D)).. hmmm... worried that i look like a homophobic, self hating gay now... also, please don't think i'm accusing anyone of having the same twisted opinions on olli as me.. i am honestly just interested because i am sort of annoying myself now...
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kes
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Without community, there is no liberation. Audre Lorde
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Post by kes on Aug 8, 2009 13:06:30 GMT -5
Rhia, I have to say it: I have the opposite feeling here. I often feel I can't post comments that may be critical of Olli because they tend to get negated. I've had to PM my responses to another sympathetic person (who's felt the same) because we don't feel we can explore these perceptions.
Given what you've written, and given my respect for you -- which is tremendous -- I think our perceptions must be coloring how we read each other's responses.
It's natural that we will go in with an "edge" to read things one way or another, and to read in each other's words what may or may not be there.
But we should be careful: In the end, the comments are probably pretty darned balanced, and in the end, we just have a rich community with divergent opinions.
So we should be careful about making generalizations. I don't want anyone feeling they cannot critique Olli for fear people will judge them.
(I don't think you'd want this either.)
However, I will look at myself: is my point-of-view more Christian-centric? That would be fun to watch. (Just as some may ask themselves are they more Olli-centric.)
What would it mean for us to shift our POV, one way or another?
Even better, not to find one character WRONG and the other RIGHT, but just see them as two people struggling in a relationship? (Generally, I think people are doing this.)
Anyway, I think the problem here is that the illness has not been written with enough care. Obviously there would be more real conversations between these lovers. Obviously, in real life, Christian would have gone for a follow-up, and would be doing something to cope with his illness. And I can't imagine a school being allowed to kick him out on the basis of an illness. At least in the US that would bring a law-suit. Christian would be able to take non-athletic classes. He wouldn't even have to change his major so quickly.
My fear here is that I will be labled as being what I am not because I critique a character.
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