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Post by husky14620 on Jun 23, 2009 0:33:43 GMT -5
I was thinking about the whole thing and decided that instead of quitting I will disable comments on videos and my channel. This really isn't what I want but I am not going to risk to be spoiled again. And after all, if anybody wants to comment they can do it here. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Actually, these are supposed to be tears of joy after yesterday's tears of sadness, but none of the smiling smilies has tears, only the frowning one. |
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Post by husky14620 on Jun 23, 2009 0:35:43 GMT -5
 ...it's just a jump to the left....  ...put your hands on your hips..and bring your knees in tight.....  .....THIS really drives me insannneee......  Ivan thank you so much for the decision you have made ;D But please, let's not do the time warp again? |
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kes
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Post by kes on Jun 23, 2009 7:00:41 GMT -5
Now he has gone even further and removed Christian from NL completely with the underlying message "if you really love me you'll do it"? Honestly - I'm not trying to "blacklist" Olli - it's just a thought  I absolutely do not think that is what Olli is doing. It's just not within his character to do that, imo. Wow...that's just...so not how I see it. I really don't even know what to say to that. It's such a completely different avenue of motivation. I'm kind of like...wow. If I thought that of Olli, then I don't think I could even like him anymore. I think that Olli is absolutely doing the best he can with this situation. I...huh. I just don't even know how to address that right now.  Hi Rhia and everyone, I have just a minute -- but I thought I'd address just one point. The underlining above is mine. I have to admit, I would love Olli all the more for being mischevious. That gives him character -- and humanity. (I don't have many friends who aren't in some way, nu? I don't know many humans who don't have that manipulative side.) So I'd be more willing to look at Olli's wicked side because I like it. Does Chris have a wicked side? Of course not! He's perfect. Well, he does, but his is less interesting. It comes out in pompousness, morality that tends to be ego-enhancing, etc. I'm all in for a robust interpretation fest regarding Chris. But there is something about that Puckish Olli I just adore. Remember, I love Tanja, too . . . |
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Post by rhiannonhero on Jun 23, 2009 7:17:21 GMT -5
I have a great fondness for Olli as full of mischief and being cunning, but I don't have a fondness for the idea of Olli being emotionally manipulative of Christian with any kind of purposeful intent that might hurt Christian -- then it stops being a love story for me, personally.
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Post by musicalgirl on Jun 23, 2009 7:40:08 GMT -5
I think what we are seeing right now is Christian being like Olli was during the boxing thing. I think they balance each other out over all. Everyone makes mistakes its human nature. I think Gregor is putting too much pressure on Olli. Olli looked really scared after the fight he knows he handled it wrong. I'm I glad he has No Limits something away from Christian and not just there to be at his beck and call which it seemed like in the beginning. Olli just having a tough time and god knows we dont all handle things well under pressure so mistakes are bound to be made.
I dont think Olli has the power in the relationship if he did why did he look scared of losing him. Power shifts in a relationship doesnt make it a bad thing. Judith was right Olli really does not have eyes for anyone else.
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kes
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Post by kes on Jun 23, 2009 8:10:41 GMT -5
I have a great fondness for Olli as full of mischief and being cunning, but I don't have a fondness for the idea of Olli being emotionally manipulative of Christian with any kind of purposeful intent that might hurt Christian -- then it stops being a love story for me, personally. One important point: I don't think Olli is conscious of any of this. He is, at heart, and in his mind, a man who strives to do good. If he is manipulative, if may be because he can't accept his own ambition, drives, etc. and acts them out unconsciously. I don't know -- but I am positive that Olli is a man who wants to be and strives to be and works to do right. This, in its way, is the "true person" anyway. It is what we strive to be that really tells our heart's purpose, not the underlying archetypes we act out. (My vision is that of a pragmatist; I don't buy into the notion that we are what we secretly don't wish to admit.) So, in a way, I think very highly of Olli because he is so kind and good, even as he can have the beautiful Puckish qualities that he himself is unaware of. (Remember: We would not have gotten that delightful sex in the boxing facility if it were not for Olli's mischevious qualities.) I think there may be something to Sheepiefarms' thoughts: Unconsciously, Olli has set up a very fine situation for himself. I don't think there is anything wrong with this, as long as his loving nature and Christian's growing maturity keep them working as well as they do as a couple. And I'll add: Olli LOVES Christian. There's no doubt of that. For me, the love is greater when a character's shadow side runs counter to the love, when there is an internal tension. Olli's working through that tension now on many ways. Some of them in ways we find acceptable (We say, "He's growing." "He's a businessman now." "He is finally putting himself first.") Some of them are unacceptable for us (We can say, "He is being cruel to Christian," "He is undermining Christian," "He is taking over what is dear to Christian in order to gain control in the relationship, "He is flirting in order to keep Christian on edge.") If we stop labeling these as wrong or right, what we get is a beautiful character, beautifully acted who is very much in love. Note: Christian is no saint. Think of Christian and how he loves his brother but subtley abuses him (well, just pummels him a bit) with his constant advice and criticism. This is better of late, but aren't there times Christian made you wince? Again, I just know too many good people who do good things who are (unknowingly) mischevious. Myself included, I am quite sure. It's a lovely part of being human!  |
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 23, 2009 8:13:37 GMT -5
I don't mind Olli being seriously mischieveous, as long as Christian doesn't stand for it longterm. I have always been fond of hard fall storylines where characters appear to be losing everything and then come back from it. But for Christian to be taking it on a permanent level that would be a creepy and imo unbearable character dynamic.
I don't really see it as a problem of wrong or right as long as effect follows cause. If Olli were underminding Christian, that wouldn't make him a horrible, unforgivable character, but it would still be extremely sensible if Christian walked out on him.
In extreme cases characters like Tanja or Olivia only work in the form of their victories usually being rather shortlived, the punishment coming naturally OR them being completely isolated from certain areas of the soap. For example, Olivia can still be borderline likable and interact with others because her victories are short lived and she always gets kicked in the balls at the end of it. Tanja's successes are more onglived but in turn she is isolated from certain aspects such as love or even friendship and normal interaction. There is no doubt in my mind that if she ever fell seriously in love, she too would get kicked in the balls and lose it in horrible ways. That is the true joy of characters like this, that they are always on the edge of tasting success. IMO if they actually gained it they would turn from lovable to pompous, hypocritical asses.
It's one thing to be no saint, it's another for a non-saint to be praised as one. As long as there is fake praise invovled, characters can do next to anything and I would file it as "interesting and intriguing story". It's just when the show tries to pass something off as better than it is that it gets wonky.
If you want to watch shows where evil behavior doesn't make you either a pariah or a loser of *something* in the long run, you have to watch HBO or something.
Once more, getting kicked in the nuts by the story or being shunned by their loved ones isn't a horrible thing either. Most of the time these are classic storylines, where characters hit rock bottom and the show is more interesting for that.
It's not a concindence that a ton of tradtionally good/supposed to be good characters have dark spells, Nathalie's alcoholism, Sarah's drugs, Leo's addiction and treating patients while high, Jana's prostitution, a *lot* of the things Johannes did, Constantin's scheming.
The whole point is that they do get caught or become miserable and lose out eventually before they recover. If they didn't recover they'd be Olivia's and Tanja's.
Errr, just because you deem it not interesting enough doesn't mean that it's not a flaw and not a complex and rich characterization.
As for manipulating, personally, this of all episodes, didn't give me that vibe. Or even if it was manipulating, it certainly didn't look like it worked out the way Olli wanted, because throughout the episode he looked like he no longer liked any of the solutions.
At the end of it, regardless of the facts, for now it seemed like Christian actually lost less than Olli in the process.
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kes
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Post by kes on Jun 23, 2009 8:20:58 GMT -5
I don't know, Lola, Olli still has a job . . .
And he's going to flirt, if the writing is any good. Christian was right about that -- Olli just doesn't want Christian around to see him flirting. It causes Christian to be jealous, and Olli doesn't see anything wrong with flirting, and hasn't really compromised on this point at all, or admitted fault (or to seeing Christian's point-of-view.)
I'll add here: flirting is not bad. However, when one partner in a couple does not want the other to flirt, then, as Sheepiefarm noted, they need to compromise. Good relationships work this way -- at least in my experience.
I think Olli does like the solution, he just doesn't like that he likes it.
(I have to admit, I would have been heading for the door if my partner called me an employee in front of a woman he was flirting with. I'd come back -- but not after time, and talks, and working towards "what's" and "why's." But then my partner wouldn't do that, or if he did, he would apologize to me, and if I did lose my temper, he would be angry, but would then ask me what the problem was. What was I reacting to? He would want to see his side in the issue. That's partnership. That's what I don't see going on here.)
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 23, 2009 8:22:44 GMT -5
I dunno. He looked very troubled to me. Maybe he didn't like the way Christian reacted to it, maybe the idea of not working next to Christian sank in, maybe he was beginning to worry that maybe it all is going to cost him badly on the longterm. But he just didn't strike me as happy with it at all.
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kes
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Post by kes on Jun 23, 2009 8:29:35 GMT -5
He seemed troubled when he realized that now he would be in the business on his own. I mean, Christian wouldn't be there to pick up the slack whenever he needed. (And think of all the slack Christian has been picking up.)
I'm being purposely hard on him here -- I agree that he's not happy, and in the long run, his decision was a good one.
But there is something troubling in the way he went about this:
It may be good: He's finally being honest, albeit blunt.
But Sheepiefarm is right: In good relationships, we talk about these things, particularly things this important.
(Christian had been working at NoLimits far longer than Olli. He helped Olli rennovate it -- Now, suddenly, fired? That's just wierd. It shows that Olli doesn't recognize any psycological investment Christian has made in what has been a second home for him.)
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Post by rhiannonhero on Jun 23, 2009 8:34:23 GMT -5
Good relationships? Or perfect relationships? I think that there's a big difference between a really good relationship a perfect one. Mainly that the second is impossible. I am pretty much completely with Lola on this one, which kind of surprises me, because I don't always agree with you, Lola! (As I think you've known, but we always handle it pretty well. Although, really, I think we agree more than I think that we do, but get held up by semantics at times.) Anyway, today, I feel like you're the only one making much sense in a sea of strangeness. LOL! I honestly feel like I'm in an alternate reality with how I have reacted to this episode --- to the extent I don't even know how to talk about it at this point and probably (hopefully) won't have much more to say on the subject. |
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softfurbear
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Post by softfurbear on Jun 23, 2009 8:40:06 GMT -5
Ivan thank you SO SO much for reconsidering!!!!
Reading your post after feeling low for the last couple of days, truly made my week.
Vielen Dank, dass Sie so viel !!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 23, 2009 8:44:56 GMT -5
Well one could argue that talking and compromises are part of anything that wants to call itself a relationship.
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Post by rhiannonhero on Jun 23, 2009 8:57:16 GMT -5
Well one could argue that talking and compromises are part of anything that wants to call itself a relationship. And one could argue that in the heat of the moment, Christian absolutely didn't talk or compromise. Olli didn't say, "You're fired. I want your ass out of No Limits right now." He said, "I think it would be best if you didn't work at No Limits anymore." It was poor timing, but his comment and his tone didn't mean that it was a done deal and he was unwilling to discuss it. He said "I think it would be best..." which leaves it up for discussion a bit, but Christian (rather understandably) wouldn't hear any of it, and then when they got back to No Limits Christian insisted on being "fired" immediately, whereas I don't think that was Olli's intention in the least, and Olli never got a chance to actually explain or defend himself. So...yeah, Christian didn't exactly allow any discussion either. (Again, understandably, but why Christian gets all the understanding and Olli doesn't really is kind of beyond me today.) As for this being a relationship, it clearly is -- and this is, imo, a pretty realistic example of stress, tension, etc, in a relationship. I just think it is unfortunate that it was shown so one-sidedly. I actually wonder if the writers intended that most people's empathy would be for Christian? They have Judith taking Olli's side without us ever really hearing why, which tells me that she's also seen the tension between them... Anyway, yeah. Good relationships often have issues for awhile. It doesn't make them no longer good. Or no longer a relationship. Unless they break up, of course. (Speculation!!!) |
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 23, 2009 9:02:07 GMT -5
Sure one won't always talk. But if there was no talk and no compromising ever, then yes, I would say that is not a relationship (anymore). Of course they aren't anywhere along those lines yet, I'm just talking on a general level. An association without any compromise is much more than just a "not perfect" relationship.
Sure it's not going to be there all the time, but to me it's not just a tiny negligible thing.
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Post by rhiannonhero on Jun 23, 2009 9:04:35 GMT -5
Of course they aren't anywhere along those lines yet, I'm just talking on a general level. An association without any compromise is much more than just a "not perfect" relationship. Right. They aren't anywhere along those lines yet, so I don't really understand why it's being discussed as if they were. If they were, then it would be a different situation altogether. I don't think that I said that a good relationship would ever have a complete lack of any discussion or compromise. If that was your interpretation of my comment, then we're back to semantics being an issue with our discussion, or a lack of context, or something, because I certainly didn't say that and that was not my intent. ETA: Erm, I might be a bit crabby today. I am sorry if I sound overly strident in my commentary. I'll go exchange these cranky pants for some happy ones, okay? Sorry! |
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kes
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Post by kes on Jun 23, 2009 11:02:46 GMT -5
Rhia, I haven't read the latest posts, but I've been crabby on here, too.
I actually see all the sides on this issue and love Olli -- I'm being a bit of a contrarian.
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Post by mona on Jun 23, 2009 17:30:00 GMT -5
(Christian had been working at NoLimits far longer than Olli. He helped Olli rennovate it -- Now, suddenly, fired? That's just wierd. It shows that Olli doesn't recognize any psycological investment Christian has made in what has been a second home for him.) I don't think Christian invested all of this because he's attached to the NL in a special way. It was always clear it's just a normal job for him because at the beginning he couldn't admit what he really wanted (to work in the sport direction) He wanted to help Olli to get his dream and it's normal he's making a step back in that situation instead of making everything worse. It's only fair Christian is trying the same now as Olli did last year. Doing everything they can to be together and have their dreams without losing their love. I would be sad if Christian would make a comment about it or if he would've done it in their argument because the help with the NL was about their relationship I think and not because he sees himself as an equal NL partner. Christians response to Olli "It's about the relationship you said" or something like that showed that Christian also chooses it over the job there even though it was meant to annoy/hurt Olli at the moment. |
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