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Post by stregatta on Mar 8, 2010 21:07:02 GMT -5
thunderkat, round of applause for a wonderful defence-speech!! ^_^ Please note that of course everyone of us has got a different POV (due to personal life & country), I always & truly respect that, it's good that many different voices could speak & compare... It's simply that, as you said, I didn't get the shift back & forth of this actual direction...Not that I've absolutely nothing against bi, or whoever else (if not, I wouldn't even bother to watch also this series ;-P)...As you were saying, apart from Thore's interviews, assuming that now even walls know that Chroust had written/ created this storyline (God bless him! LOL ;D), why can't simply the new staff, having a final agreement about the Chrolli's fate?? I don't think it's extremely difficult...Or perhaps it is, bacause ( I didn't know about ratings) they want to move in a different direction for desperately gaing more audience?! What a pity indeed... PS_anyways, this was my personal sensation, not "the truth, the only real 1", I so hope to be wrong & that we could still have a good surprise instead (as in all those misleading spoilers!! ) Cheers*
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Post by lugia on Mar 8, 2010 21:12:14 GMT -5
PS_@Luigia, regarding the last eps & Becca, you quoted as a bad example ALIAS-season3: of course I respect your opinion, but I disagree...In the sense that I've found that sudden breathless shift from the end of s-2 to the beginning of s-3 as a real "coup de théàtre"! Besides that English actress had been good & mysterious enough to keep alive the tension & the suspense for the course of that year, you really didn't know what Mr J.J.Abrams had in store...Unfortunately for us, in VL it's an all different story!! ;D Bye* Haha, I guess that's why people like Lost, too, and I don't. ;D I really don't care for abrupt changes that happen without any reason I can see other than to "shock" the viewer. I'm a linear thinker. I felt the same sense of betrayal you do about Chrolli, because Sydney/Vaughn was a beautifully developed romance for two years and then "bam" Vaughn married a bitch. But most of us watched it as a rebound from X-Files, where Mulder and Scully never even really got together, so bad things happening again just sent us right over the edge again. It took me about ten years and now I can even enjoy X-Files DVDs again. As pure entertainment, most of these plot-light series work. The Ollian saga will also always have a special place in my heart. But witnessing the downfall develop in real-time is a catastrophe. I actually wanted to get out in 2008 when they were suddenly reduced to the background, but who knew the writing would get THAT bad? I'm NEVER this patient or forgiving, but I cut Chrolli huge amounts of slack for months because they were just so dear to me. And how are we repayed for our two-year loyalty? It's just not funny.
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Post by stregatta on Mar 8, 2010 21:23:39 GMT -5
Hi dear Lugia!! (sorry my spelling of the name,LOL ;-P) I understand you also regarding Alias, I wasn't so X-files-fan, but 1 of my friends waited a lfetime for seeing them kissing...Crazy!! Besides it's always a very subtle feeling regarding these kind of things. like in theory I should have liked Lost (being a fan of Abrams) instead I didn't, I mean, I've appreciated the "philosophy-effort" behind the whole project, but didn't fell it by heart...
In VL case, I guess we're at an opposite side: we like our Ollian-teddy bears, but we're so fed up wth his crap of story...No aliens or other special mysteries here, too bad!! LOL ;-P)
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Post by lugia on Mar 8, 2010 21:56:45 GMT -5
Now, seeing as Thore was a little mowgli jungle-boy bugle blowing non-kindergaarten attendee (god bless his adorable little soul!!! ), plus the fact that he's STRAIGHT I doubt that the idea of Sexuality as not only a biological persuasion but an identity and a culture to which many subscribe and affiliate has EVER crossed his mind. He actually confirmed that in early interviews, that he had never thought about gay identity prior to doing this storyline. I think watching Brokeback Mountain was his first real connecting to the culture. I mean, one of my best friends is bisexual and I still never really dwelled on it until I became involved in slash fandoms myself. It's a difference if you're sort of 'aware' of it, or if you're passionately involved in it. I loved the interview for that reason! (Yeah, okay, this doesn't fit in the bitterness thread ;D). He even admitted to having questioned his own sexuality. Which is so far removed from his standard "dancing in front of shopping windows that display lingerie" attitude. I think Jo got a deeper and deeper grasp of the complexities and repercussions, too, through fan mail, public perception, etc. The first few interviews read well-meaning or PC, but somehow clueless, too. I'm personally more worried about they not being that aware of fandom dynamics, how to talk to the press (which is funny because they briefed the contestants in Whistler on it) and how to treat their international popularity. They behave like they're still in Germany, so to speak. They have Facebook accounts and the like, which would've been unthinkable ten years ago, but for the most part they're still stuck in naive little unconnected German media. And if they stay here and will work here in the future, so what. But I also think they, as YouTube stars, have a special responsibility to the global market. But I've said this here before, then his only option would be to quit, because the writers ignore the international fans and German advertisers completely. Their duty is to write for German fee payers. And Thore can't come into the writers' room and demand that they respect their international audience or the gay following. This show is written for German women. It tries to pull in young viewers, but also hugely caters to grandmother types. MY thinking is that they should aim for a universal appeal, the human nature. Why would Germans not love what is loved globally? But they got the task from someone (the broadcaster??) to bring VL back to an oldfashioned formula and to only invest in its look. And until they realize that this backfired, there's nothing we can do. It's actually funny how Germany tries to catch up with the rest of the world and they take the show back to the dark ages. Would the grandmothers really watch the vlog?! It feels like something to appease us, so we won't notice the show going boom, which they can't help because they got the order from higher ups. I think the web content team is the only one who gets it right. The TV stuff is for an altogether different target audience.
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Post by stregatta on Mar 8, 2010 22:13:58 GMT -5
OMG...so it's a schizophrenic conspirancy now?! Ah-ah...I'm glad you're bringing to the table this (to my eyes) strange German authors' behaviour, 'cause I didn't dare to say it, I didn't want to judge something I'm not in...Probably somehow in a crazy way, they've the fear that it backfires on them, for ex. investing too much into Ollian, & then soon enough actors will fly away to other roles (perhaps not within the country, who knows?! ) Honestly I've no idea...I think a global market has always something, at least as a feedback, to offer back, repaying the initial effort. It could be that the're reacting as, following "the linear-thinking" that you like...The only problem now is to understand "what the hell they consider as LINEAR"'?! LOL... ;D Please, discover it in a little time, fans are waiting, sick & tired!! ^_^ PS_BACK OFF OLD GRANNIES!!! Tscuss
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Flaco&Lalo
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YAY! Hot gay footballers at last! (and none of them end up dead!) :)
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Post by Flaco&Lalo on Mar 9, 2010 6:13:30 GMT -5
"The perceived insult is from the inconsistency of (really Christian's) sexuality." thunderkatHis sexuality have always been inconsistent! He changed his sexual orientation basically overnight after an Olli's kiss! You probably haven't watched the show before but Chris was 100% straight back then and after meeting Olli he never looked back at girls which I found rather odd.. Yes, I know, "it's just a soap", but as a gay man I feel insulted when I see fictional characters changing sexual orientation so suddenly, I see that most people on this site are straight women and you're probably only interested in eye-candy guys, but most gay men have a different POV and this explain why few of them watch a soap like this.. anyway I'm glad I took a hiatus from this couple months ago
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Post by ivaniv on Mar 9, 2010 6:31:30 GMT -5
I think you can call Christian bisexual. He's not even looking at men atm, so you can't blame him for not looking at women either. He's been content with what he had, apparently. As for the inconsistences, there will always be some if they want to use an existing character and cannot rewrite their past. One should not worry too much about it.
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thunderkat
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By Scissorknot
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Post by thunderkat on Mar 9, 2010 6:44:23 GMT -5
"The perceived insult is from the inconsistency of (really Christian's) sexuality." thunderkatHis sexuality have always been inconsistent! He changed his sexual orientation basically overnight after an Olli's kiss! You probably haven't watched the show before but Chris was 100% straight back then and after meeting Olli he never looked back at girls which I found rather odd.. Yes, I know, "it's just a soap", but as a gay man I feel insulted when I see fictional characters changing sexual orientation so suddenly, I see that most people on this site are straight women and you're probably only interested in eye-candy guys, but most gay men have a different POV and this explain why few of them watch a soap like this.. anyway I'm glad I took a hiatus from this couple months ago Are you insulted? hmmm. seems so. and that insult seems to stem from...ah yes the perceived inconsistency of his sexuality. So, I'm quite glad we agree ;D I'm quite familiar with the show, thanks, and actually was including his "straightness." In the inconsistency. It's an old trope in any piece of dramatic television, but here there is no explanation for Christian, and that is bothersome. It robs the show of a sense of realism, robs Thore of an opportunity to act his heiney off, and robs the audience of a chance to connect in a deeper way with the character. But, c'est la vie. Can't fix it now, and have to kind of roll with it. Or, as you have done take a hiatus. However I think we would all do well to remember that the soap has no responsibility to explore these themes with any depth. But writers would do well to remember that complexity adds interest and realism, and with that respect and viewership. Yes Chrolli is "eye-candy" escapist fluff, but it's always tantalizing to include something nutritive. Anyway, hope you enjoy your hiatus.
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Post by lugia on Mar 9, 2010 11:58:39 GMT -5
It's an old trope in any piece of dramatic television, but here there is no explanation for Christian, and that is bothersome. But looking at how they handled Charlie not being able to commit to Stella, I'm not sure I want them to explore it. Olli said something like "it's about the person, not the gender" and Charlie came to the opposite conclusion. I actually have a problem with the relationship writing overall. Is a crush based only on lusting after the other person (Chribecca, Dabecca)? Is all love suddenly conditional (like LySeb's baby making)? I've lost my connection to what love IS on this show. So the gender is the least of my concerns. I think I was always worried that Christian didn't look at other men. He said he was gay, so what was stopping him? Olli dreams about knights and furniture movers all the time, and his role description still is bisexual. But in his case I kind of believe it because he has chemistry with them all and would commit to the other person with conviction. He gets more out of being with men, but he's flirty with women, too. Christian almost comes across as asexual. I have no idea where he stands. Similar to Andi, I never believed he was gay. So I'm going with loving Olli, the person. But something in that character still doesn't add up, like Chroust noticed when he made him gay! I sometimes have a problem with bisexuals playing both sides, but Christian is neither here nor there. I don't know if it's possible to fall for the person when they explored with Charlie that it wasn't. But it's like Christian could just forget he was straight or gay from one day to the next and then fully commit to that one side. It's like the gender of the person he loves controls his sexuality instead of having his OWN sexual identity. I think I appreciate bisexuals more because they're somehow more real about admitting they have leanings in both directions. You know more where you stand. Wow, I almost wrote this word for word the other day! Heh.
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Post by donnied on Mar 9, 2010 16:43:28 GMT -5
Lugia,
If the VL writers are writing material to appeal to the German Grandmother market, why not let us suggest to them that they write a 'Semi-Parallel' Chrolli line for the International viewers? Germany could produce the world's best soap for the German audience and another for the International audience by only changing and enhancing the Chrolli storyline.
This way, Germany would be ahead of the curve. It would be the first country to produce dual soaps, one targeted for home consumption, and one targeted for International consumption. Wow! Go for it VL! Lead the World! If anyone can do it, you can VL!
der Geflügelhändler, Illinois, USA
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Post by ivaniv on Mar 9, 2010 16:58:38 GMT -5
Who would pay for that? All those ads for laxatives, against osteoporosis and vaginal dryness etc can't be that lucrative to pay for 2 soaps in one.
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Post by lugia on Mar 9, 2010 19:51:38 GMT -5
But Donnie has a point. If they can produce vlogs and Andi webisodes and the US market will sort of even get an Ollian 'spinoff', they could produce an online series, maybe 10 minutes each episode, once a week. But overall, I don't get why ALL of ARD's shows have to appeal to an older (or really young) generation. They have so many soaps, why can't one be fresh and unique? Or does Marienhof cover that audience with their diversity and being set in Cologne? Although they have even worse ratings. I always think in regards to VL, they should've left well enough alone. Branched out maybe. But never should've gone BACK. Those vaginal dryness ads are insane! But I like the heart insufficiency even better that started appearing right when Christian got it.
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Post by donnied on Mar 9, 2010 20:03:58 GMT -5
Hi Ivan,
We Chrolli fans are going to have to start thinking 'Outside the Box' as they say. If there is a will, there is a way. You can't tell me Germany or for that matter, any country in Europe, does not have a manufacturing company that wants to advertise their export product INTERNATIONALLY over the internet. Does Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Bosch, Seimens, Deutz, ALDI, ring a bell? And it does not have to be a European company, any International conglomerate such as MicroSoft, 3M, DELL, BP, GE, Toyota, GM, Nissan, etc. needs sales advertisements reaching International markets.
Come on folks, if we show VL there is an International demand for their product (Chrolli), I know they won't have any trouble finding advertisers for it. Look at the hits Nanna's site is getting. Money talks as they say, and there is strength in numbers! We just have to get this ball rolling, and then roll it into VL's lap!
der Geflügelhändler, Illinois, USA
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Post by donnied on Mar 9, 2010 20:12:34 GMT -5
German Fans:
Is it not strange that ARD uses dasErste as their Logo? The First is it? The First in what? Well, here is a chance to claim 'The First' in an International Soap "Webisode" as Lugia calls it!
der Geflügelhändler, Illinois, USA
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SF
Junior Member
Posts: 759
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Post by SF on Mar 9, 2010 20:24:50 GMT -5
vaginal 'dryness'?! jesus wept, as if chribecca wasn't more than enough to stomach. i was intensely pissed off with todays episode, gotta say. i think if dabecca is our saving grace - it's got off to a pretty limp, unpalatable, unenthusiastic start. i mean, i'm trying not to admit it, but from an objective point of view even chribecca is more interesting than dabecca. god i hated every second of it - apart from olli and andi (seriously - how adorable and endlessly compassionate and entirely lovely is olli?). oh and jessica - from an aesthetic point of view (on mute) she's like a hypnotic cat and her boobs are a serious marvel of physics. but you know you've hit a low point when a pair of boobs were the most gripping thing about an episode. *sigh* i just hope there's no more montages to sit through. i sincerely get the impression the writers think i'm meant to be feeling something i don't ever want to feel as soon as the music kicks in and rebecca makes her 'entirely unobvious' goggly eyes at a completely oblivious and (in this instance) thick-as-pig-shit christian. really, how can someone so pretty be so entirely dumb?!
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kristen
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Thanks Joanna for the screen cap
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Post by kristen on Mar 9, 2010 21:46:43 GMT -5
In addition to corporate companies advertising on the web only version it could also be subsidized by fans paying a subscription fee. Now a days there are lots of niche fandoms that prosper with content through subscription member only access. I would pay to see Christian and Olli in storylines that don't involve their orientation being questioned/played with just to capitalize on Miss Soap Queen who can't act. I am sure I am not the only one who would subscribe.
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Post by stregatta on Mar 9, 2010 22:30:08 GMT -5
Ok, I know that US-fans are used to this kind of paying for watching something dedicated, spin-off & so on (petition dedicated to, etc...), but I don't think here in EU it's exactly the same, it should be way more difficult to realize it (or however, as they've already done, in the end Chrolli will be made in America with that standard & another show tout-court!) I see it pretty hard...Besides, I think Nana's clips from YT are there for free (I've thought the same initially, if she had done all that work just for hobby...)
All in all, never say never! ;-P)
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Post by lugia on Mar 9, 2010 23:22:18 GMT -5
soapfan, your post is brilliant! I had the exact same thoughts!!
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mycatfox
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"One sees clearly only with the heart. What is essential is invisible to the eye"
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Post by mycatfox on Mar 10, 2010 1:49:17 GMT -5
I've just finished yesterday ep. (09.03.10) and I have to say that as I watched it I found myself saying OMG! OMG! several times, but not in a good way. I felt totally embarrassed, actually. I couldn't believe my eyes and my ears as I saw Christian touching, kissing, sweet-talking Becca the way he did. More than a totally clueless guy, he came across (to me) as...kinda knowing what he was doing. Those scenes looked very forced, very false. Like " it has to be this way in order to mislead Becca so she finally makes her move" . I don't know if I'm making sense, but the impression that I had was that the whole thing was made with zero subtlety Though on second thought, everything in this soap lacks subtlety lately (the acting, the stories, the dialogues)...I guess Verbotene Liebe became another trashy, vulgar soap opera (yup!) I want my guys back!! I want sensible Christian again! I want Olli scarf-less for once, I want the writers to stop portraying him as a gay-clown! I don't wanna see Becca close to the guys anymore, she doesn't belong to the Ollian world at all ( please give her to David)! I want Judith back! I want Olivia back! And where the f*ck is auntie Charlie?
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thunderkat
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Post by thunderkat on Mar 10, 2010 1:50:41 GMT -5
^^ That...was pure gold right there.
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maya
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Post by maya on Mar 10, 2010 2:17:22 GMT -5
i think if dabecca is our saving grace - it's got off to a pretty limp, unpalatable, unenthusiastic start. i mean, i'm trying not to admit it, but from an objective point of view even chribecca is more interesting than dabecca. I have to completely disagree with this. Nothing is more uninteristing, more dumb than Chribecca and this just because when Rebecca is around Christian she becomes totally brainless. She's so pathetic, needy, clingy that it's almost a phisical pain watching her. So I hope to see less Chribecca and more Dabecca in the future because without Christian I can always FF through all Rebecca's scenes
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Post by chrolliforever7 on Mar 10, 2010 10:28:39 GMT -5
i think if dabecca is our saving grace - it's got off to a pretty limp, unpalatable, unenthusiastic start. i mean, i'm trying not to admit it, but from an objective point of view even chribecca is more interesting than dabecca. I have to completely disagree with this. Nothing is more uninteristing, more dumb than Chribecca and this just because when Rebecca is around Christian she becomes totally brainless. She's so pathetic, needy, clingy that it's almost a phisical pain watching her. So I hope to see less Chribecca and more Dabecca in the future because without Christian I can always FF through all Rebecca's scenes I have to say, I couldn't agree more with you, maya. Watching Chribecca and just Rebecca is physically painful.....
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Post by lugia on Mar 10, 2010 15:06:10 GMT -5
i think if dabecca is our saving grace - it's got off to a pretty limp, unpalatable, unenthusiastic start. i mean, i'm trying not to admit it, but from an objective point of view even chribecca is more interesting than dabecca. I have to completely disagree with this. Nothing is more uninteristing, more dumb than Chribecca and this just because when Rebecca is around Christian she becomes totally brainless. She's so pathetic, needy, clingy that it's almost a phisical pain watching her. So I hope to see less Chribecca and more Dabecca in the future because without Christian I can always FF through all Rebecca's scenes I agree with soapfan. From an objective POV, the show is investing tons more in Chribecca. They get the cute, flirty montages, touching, kissing, sweettalking, and most important, about 80% more screentime than Dabecca. I'm not saying they're more interesting, but the show is trying to push them much more than Dabecca. The last couple of episodes have started to show David's POV more and given him more 'epic' scenes, true emotions, but this needs to continue for at least 6 months front and center to even tip the balance. Chribecca has so many more episodes under their belt. To get the general audience invested in a new pairing requires much more effort than we're seeing, and that's why the Dabecca episodes come across as lackluster to me, too. Although they really weren't this week. It just feels that way. Now Rebecca is gone for at least two weeks and the little momentum we've worked hard to achieve comes to a screeching halt again.
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Post by mona on Mar 10, 2010 15:22:42 GMT -5
The last couple of episodes have started to show David's POV more and given him more 'epic' scenes, true emotions, but this needs to continue for at least 6 months front and center to even tip the balance. Chribecca has so many more episodes under their belt. To get the general audience invested in a new pairing requires much more effort than we're seeing, and that's why the Dabecca episodes come across as lackluster to me, too. Although they really weren't this week. It just feels that way. Now Rebecca is gone for at least two weeks and the little momentum we've worked hard to achieve comes to a screeching halt again. With spoiler But at least we know all that will continue (David watching her preparing for the "date"). I almost compare it to Starla now. Chribecca is Starlie and Dabecca will never be a big couple to work with, that's why they build it around Chribecca now, making it the story for Dabecca somehow and some complications for Ollian later (and to live out their Chribecca fantasy they think is good) I almost expect Dabecca to come together and two days later a designer calls for her bags and they're gone, starting a flatshare with Judith. Back then we also only got Carla staring at Stella for some time, being happy to spend time with her and suddenly Charlie is there too. I think the touching should come across as "friends" but there I feel like Thore isn't the best at it. The same with his smalltalk scenes lately (today talking about Elias). It feels too fake. I think someone wrote that in the german thread too once, that he talks loud and it's like I feel he's trying to act tou much that he doesn't know what Rebecca is feeling. Like he's a bad "actor" in his own role and Christian knows it.
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Post by lugia on Mar 10, 2010 15:40:56 GMT -5
I almost compare it to Starla now. Chribecca is Starlie and Dabecca will never be a big couple to work with Ah, so that's why David compared them to Starla today! ;D Works for me! That would be wonderful!! Interesting point. I never really thought about the Chribecca scenes or their acting in them. ;D But today he pulled this face and literally mumbled to himself way too overtly "What's the matter with her?" As if nobody buys into it anymore that he really still doesn't know. So they somehow made a joke of it, used it for one of Christian's "antics" moments. But for instance, I also think he overacts scenes with women with his posing and when he's macho with Gregor or Andi. It was terrible acting in the scene with David, where they get water bottles. That's a general "trying to act too much" way of bringing scenes to life and making them interesting. You can giggle about them or feel they take you out of the story. I got the same with Jessica in the beginning. She was shouting!
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