Oliver and Christian, 7.11.08, video and caps

[lolaruns]

Although theoretically you could argue that he did - his ambition was to become Christian's lover. As someone whose heart rules his head - this is as legitimate an ambition as any other.

Except that to me that is still at odds with how Olli behaved in the past. When Olli realized his feelings for Christian and reported them to Charlie he was not ambitious, he was more annoyed. And while Olli obviously wanted Christian to be happy, for the most part he was fairly convinced that he had no chance with Christian and if you look at the core of it, was actually quite passive for most of the early process outside of kissing Christian (which was prompted by an outside event, Coco opening up about the kiss). He never asked Christian not to leave, Christian overheard by accident. He then turned his attention to what he thought was advising another troubled guy on the internet. He was the one who suggested that maybe they would be better off if they stopped living together. Olli was mostly passive till he realized that Christian had written the schwulundglücklich messages and apparently did have feelings for him after all. I would hardly call that ambitious. At that point Olli thought it was hopeless and as a result didn't work too much for it. Hardly what I would call ambitious, particularly at the point you were refering to.

Nor does Olli's CV so far suggest that he always saw finding the perfect boyfriend his life ambition. He was the one who was not happy when Tom proposed to him and he was the one who eventually dumped Tom. The fact that he didn't love Tom like that didn't keep him from being possessive of Tom and wanting attention when Tom's old lover came back.

Then of course he went to work on a ship for 5 years, hardly the right environment to form permanent relationships and we have seen Olli be casual about hookups before. It seems to me that Christian is very firmly the exception, not the rule.

On the other hand, Olli listening to others, trying to help others, even people he isn't romantically interested in seems to be the rule rather than the exception, something that Jo Weil also commented on that that was something that bugged him a lot about the old 5-years ago Olli. In fact in his return interview he commented that he hoped that Olli had finally stepped away from that attitude a bit and gotten more selfish in a healthy kind of way (first few weeks of Olli's return) only to say half a year later in an interview that apparently that is the role Olli fills on the show and that every show needs to have characters like that.

To give an example, now the relationship between Olli and Olivia is naturally very different. But he has done many things for her that he has done for Christian as well. He listens to her fears and worries and complaints and seems genuinely interested (or puts up a good show) in her professional progress when nobody else is. He seemed genuinely happy for her when she is doing well (for example during the mini fashion show at the Lahnstein holding where Judith broke her heel). He has protected her even to the extent of going behind her back and drawing her ire upon him when he saved her from the blackmailer photographer. He has comforted her when she was down because of job related issues. He freaked out badly and emotionally when he thought she was in danger, just like he was freaking out when Christian was in danger in the boxing ring. And his discussion with her about how she should be happy that she got ahead even without doing certain things to get there (sleeping with the photographer) reminded me a lot about his conversation with Christian about getting ahead in boxing without steroids.

So he obviously has a lot of care and love for Olivia even though it is not his ambition to become her lover.

So is it really that Olli demands a quid pro quo or does he just demand people not to be dicks to him (like Olivia when she tries underhanded things like blackmailing him). Also, if Olli is generally naturally nice to people even the ones who are not Christian, what really are the chances that any job would ever be that fullfilling to him?

Personally, I see a lot of Charlie in Olli. Now, there are differences obviously since Charlie built the Schneiders and even did things like create off shots in other cities. But to me it still seems that she values her lifestyle and quality of life above all. That includes drinking champagne all day, loving her family, being there for others, being a bit of a gossip hound, being close to aristocrats. Charlie also dreams of big romantic love but is notoriously bad at finding or keeping it. Still while she is a savy business woman, Charlie has never struck me as a very ruthlessly ambitious person. She seems like a person who has reached a certain plateau and makes her life within in it. And that the point of this plateau is for her to be able to live the lifestyle that suits her personally and one that happens to be quite laid back and relaxed.

Maybe it's just that I have seen both rl people and many characters who were ambitious/desperate for love and Olli (or Charlie for that matter, even though she has plenty of times expressed she yearns for it) just doesn't fit the mental image at all. To Olli the giving love part certainly seems to be much more important than the receiving part, but that doesn't mean that he can't get frustrated if he seems to not get anything at all back or people disrespect him completely (like Olivia for example sometimes does).

Of course this is partially due to the fact that Christian's nature means he does not necesarily pry into Olli's thoughts pre-Christian - Christian being a very private person himself.

Is it really a question of privacy rather than let's say a version of self-centeredness? I have commented before that it bugs me a lot that Christian also hardly ever seems to properly listen to Gregor, to the extent of cutting him off.

[Flippityfloppityflip]

Hi everybody. I must say that I have found all the viewpoints regarding this episode very, very interesting. Some comments I believed were spot on and others I thought to rather surprising! However, whether I agreed or disagreed with them, I must give particular thanks go to sheepiefarm, seven14 (over in the general thread), mona, kes, restenergy, brownsugar and lola for their comments.

At the end of the day I can't help but feel like Olli, this sense of frustration. Like Olli I had expectations of Christian when Olli pulled off the belt and hung it around Christian's neck. Couldn't Christian have let down Olli in a more gentler fashion. I'm sure if Christian had kissed him and/or hugged him first and then said he had to get on with his studies, Olli's feeling of rejection might have been lessened a bit.

Again my levels of frustration rose again when Christian hardly looked at Olli when he briefly came home and was off again. This just three weeks after Olli was at death's door. Come on VL writers. Why are we the viewers being treated like idiots and fed such a terrible storyline?

As for the last two scenes, don't get me started! The only good thing about it was seeing Olli lying on the bed, in their room, looking hot as usual.

A lot has been said about this episode and so eloquently so I'll stop my rant for now. I will now however, to cool down just wallow in the shallows and say that I just loved Christian's and Olli outfits today. It must be my age, but although most people don't seem to have like Christian's shirt and waistcoat combo, I did. I thought it suited him and made him look slimmer. However, Olli did outshine hime though. I thought that the dark striped jumper, emphasised his beautiful colouring (and was used to good effect when he had to smoulder with lust in the bathroom and smoulder with rage in the bedroom). However, I particularly loved his jeans with all the zips on his bottom! Shallow I know, but I have to look for the positive points in this episode, as there weren't many. I know some of you will be thinking of shirtless Christian, but when gorgeous Olli is standing next to him, even though fully clothed, to my mind there is no comparison.

[lolaruns]

At the end of the day I can't help but feel like Olli, this sense of frustration. Like Olli I had expectations of Christian when Olli pulled off the belt and hung it around Christian's neck. Couldn't Christian have let down Olli in a more gentler fashion. I'm sure if Christian had kissed him and/or hugged him first and then said he had to get on with his studies, Olli's feeling of rejection might have been lessened a bit.

Another scene that comes to my mind in this context is when Christian had to push Olli away when Wolle caught them hugging. It was a crappy situation, it was disrespectful to Olli and they HAD to do it because of career related thoughts and both of them knew it.

Back then Christian made it obvious with various looks that he didn't like doing this. As soon as he got off he walked over to Olli, embraced him and told him the he was sorry. When they talked about it Christian immediately said that this situation was hurting him too.

And what did Olli say? Something along the lines "If I didn't know that was hurting you too, I would have left a long time ago".

Now, this situation is naturally less severe, but the core of it that there is a situation (they don't see each other a lot, their interaction doesn't have Romantik) that Olli thinks is worth being unhappy about. One of the frustrating aspects seems to be that Christian has no problem with the situation or at least it doesn't seem to bother him as much. It's one thing to stick through a problematic situation controlled by outside pressures, it's another when the other person doesn't even seem to think that it is a problematic situation.

That's why I mentioned that those times when they had to keep their relationship secret because it fit with Christian's moral codex and he knew and felt that what he was doing was wrong or assy and he felt guilt and he felt empathy. But the current situation doesn't seem to trigger his sense of there being a problem. Olli apparently suffers under the current level of not seeing each other and not enough attentiveness while Christian seems just fine with the amount they have (which might also imply that things wouldn't necessarily change much if the outside pressures were removed or that the outside pressures might never be gone if Christian does not consider them a big enough oppression of their relationship). In short, Olli might be more willing to stick through things if he thought that they were on the same page in agreeing that that is a not good situation as opposed that situation sucking for Olli and being a-ok for Christian.

[sheepiefarm]

Nov 9, 2008 21:43:41 GMT -5 lolaruns said:

Except that to me that is still at odds with how Olli behaved in the past. When Olli realized his feelings for Christian and reported them to Charlie he was not ambitious, he was more annoyed. And while Olli obviously wanted Christian to be happy, for the most part he was fairly convinced that he had no chance with Christian and if you look at the core of it, was actually quite passive for most of the early process outside of kissing Christian (which was prompted by an outside event, Coco opening up about the kiss).

But at this point he was of the impression that Christian was heterosexual - of course he would be passive - and yet he still allowed himself to dream, to want, to hope. His ambitiondesire for something to happen between them was so strong that he could not distance himself from the thought.
And then there was the kiss........how can you so easily dismiss that. Did he just say "sorry I don't fancy Coco, I actually fancy / have fallen in love with you"? - No, he had to reply in the most emphatic way he knew how and that was by entering Christian's physical space and kissing him

He was the one who suggested that maybe they would be better off if they stopped living together.

A mere gesture said in a bickering spat that was never carried out - but again it is part of Olli's self-sacrificial nature - he would do that if that was what Christian wanted. Once the spat had cooled it was forgotten about.

Olli was mostly passive till he realized that Christian had written the schwulundglücklich messages and apparently did have feelings for him after all.

Why wouldn't he be - falling in love with a heterosexual is the pursuit of the impossible. Yet as soon as he realised it was not impossible, his pursuit became relentless in it's intensity.

I would hardly call that ambitious. At that point Olli thought it was hopeless and as a result didn't work too much for it. Hardly what I would call ambitious, particularly at the point you were refering to.

Ambitious : having a desire; aspiring
I suppose this debate centers on our interpretation of ambitious.

Nor does Olli's CV so far suggest that he always saw finding the perfect boyfriend his life ambition. He was the one who was not happy when Tom proposed to him and he was the one who eventually dumped Tom. The fact that he didn't love Tom like that didn't keep him from being possessive of Tom and wanting attention when Tom's old lover came back.
Then of course he went to work on a ship for 5 years, hardly the right environment to form permanent relationships and we have seen Olli be casual about hookups before. It seems to me that Christian is very firmly the exception, not the rule.

Does it have to have been his life's ambition?
Could it not just be that this is what he wants most right now?

On the other hand, Olli listening to others, trying to help others, even people he isn't romantically interested in seems to be the rule rather than the exception, something that Jo Weil also commented on that that was something that bugged him a lot about the old 5-years ago Olli. In fact in his return interview he commented that he hoped that Olli had finally stepped away from that attitude a bit and gotten more selfish in a healthy kind of way (first few weeks of Olli's return) only to say half a year later in an interview that apparently that is the role Olli fills on the show and that every show needs to have characters like that.

To give an example, now the relationship between Olli and Olivia is naturally very different. But he has done many things for her that he has done for Christian as well. He listens to her fears and worries and complaints and seems genuinely interested (or puts up a good show) in her professional progress when nobody else is. He seemed genuinely happy for her when she is doing well (for example during the mini fashion show at the Lahnstein holding where Judith broke her heel). He has protected her even to the extent of going behind her back and drawing her ire upon him when he saved her from the blackmailer photographer. He has comforted her when she was down because of job related issues. He freaked out badly and emotionally when he thought she was in danger, just like he was freaking out when Christian was in danger in the boxing ring. And his discussion with her about how she should be happy that she got ahead even without doing certain things to get there (sleeping with the photographer) reminded me a lot about his conversation with Christian about getting ahead in boxing without steroids.

So he obviously has a lot of care and love for Olivia even though it is not his ambition to become her lover.

Olli is naturally a people-person, a sympathetic, empathetic carer. It would only be natural for the way he falls in love to be an extension of this.

Is it really a question of privacy rather than let's say a version of self-centeredness?

Can it not be both?
It is quite feasible that both of these traits can be part of one's personality.
(imo) Christian shows distinct aspects of both.


Flippityfloppityflip - I liked the shirt, waistcoat combo too - it must be a northern british thing ;D

[lolaruns]

I'm sorry, but your definition of ambition makes no sense to me at all particularly since we were discussion it in the context of life dreams and dream jobs. By that definition one could classify every little whim and desire we have every day as an ambition. It is my ambition to have cake for desert because I desire to have desert. It is my ambition to watch Golden Eye on DVD because I desire to see that movie.

To me ambition is related to ambitious and to me ambitious is related to aggressive and competitive. To me you cannot be passive and be ambitious at the same time. To call every vague wish in life an ambition would completely devalue the point.

If I was a vague wish that having sex with Brad Pitt would be hot that is still a desire. But I'm not ambitious about it unless I actually fly to America and start stalking him.

Also by your definition Christian also had the ambition to have sex with Olli yesterday, he had the ambition to make things work with Coco and Nico, he had the ambition to find a present for Rebecca, he had the ambition to get rid of Olivia, he had the ambition for Judith to stop talking.

Also, if you are attracted to somebody it is the nature of the the whole thing that you naturally want to be with them (in a relationship or sexually or whatever). What is the point of adding "ambition" to it? In the same way I would say that Christian acted a lot more ambitious to keep Olli around and that his ambition was indeed to keep Olli close.

Why don't we just call it wish/desire/yearning? To me calling having a relationship with Christian Olli's ambition (again particularly in the context of life ambitions) does a real disservice to Olli because to me it did not seem a very high ranking ambition in Olli's life let alone the only one (other ambitions would be to have a good time and to be closer to his family) because he did not act ambitious about it. Hence I do not think for one moment that that was what he was thinking about when Christian asked about life dreams and that he was just not telling Christian because of their level of intimacy. Christian was talking about life dreams, Olli honestly answered that he didn't have one/never had one. Olli's wish to be with Christian doesn't even close to something that could have been called a life ambition at this point, so no, I don't think that that was what Olli was thinking about because he thing Christian was talking about (lifelong dream or desire as opposed to a fondness for somebody he just met a short while ago; and like I said before to me there is much more evidence in Olli's CV that freedom and having a goodlife where much more dominant ambitions in his life as opposed to finding a boyfriend; so no I don't think that it can be classified as a lifedream of Olli's; in its nature it comes much closer to a recent fancy as opposed to something he had been dreaming about the way Christian was dreaming about sports, Gregor was dreaming about flying, Sarah was dreaming about music or Olivia was dreaming about being a model) Olli did indeed not have.

For me for it to count as a lifedream/life-ambition Olli woud have to be like the little girls who dream about picking their wedding dress at age 4 and have no other career aspirations other than that. And I don't believe for a second that Olli was like that. Otherwise his relationship with Tom woud have gone very differently and he wouldn't have led the casual easy going lifestyle he led.

[sheepiefarm]

Nov 10, 2008 5:12:00 GMT -5 lolaruns said:

I'm sorry, but your definition of ambition makes no sense to me at all particularly since we were discussion it in the context of life dreams and dream jobs.

Ambitions can change - life dreams can change - we learn something new, we experience something different our interest builds to such an extent it becomes something new we aspire to be / do.
People are not born with ambition - it is our personality, our upbringing and our expectation that evolves, and ultimately drives it.

By that definition one could classify every little whim and desire we have every day as an ambition. It is my ambition to have cake for desert because I desire to have desert. It is my ambition to watch Golden Eye on DVD because I desire to see that movie.

A whim today but forgotten tomorrow could never be described as an ambition - Olli's desire for Christian and his pursuit of it could never be described as a whim - it ruled his life.

To me ambition is related to ambitious and to me ambitious is related to aggressive and competitive.

Head over heart definition

To me you cannot be passive and be ambitious at the same time.

I don't necesarily agree.
Many people have ambitions that are never realised because their passivity inhibits the agressive desire to pursue them.
I am one of them.
Even though I would be classed as an underachiever it does not mean I have never had ambition and I can honestly say that I have never voiced my ambitions to anyone.
The term "Middle aged crisis" is derived from people who have not realised thier ambitions.

Christian had ambition to study sports - would he have pursued that ambition if it had not been for Olli?

Why don't we just call it wish/desire/yearning?

Because it rules his life - his every action, his every thought centers around putting Christian first.

To me calling having a relationship with Christian Olli's ambition (again particularly in the context of life ambitions) does a real disservice to Olli because to me it did not seem a very high ranking ambition in Olli's life

To you.
Ambition and aspirations differ greatly between people - we do not all aspire to be the president of the country. Some people aspire to be rich & wealthy, others to be at peace and in harmony.
What is seen as an aspiration to some is seen as a waste of time to others.
It has a lot to do with personality, circumstance and expectation.
A century ago many women aspired to find a good husband, start a family and have a happy family life - not because they were unachievers or uninspired but beacuse thier expectations were lower and limitations far greater. Today, in western culture, thier limitations are far less, therefore thier expectations are far higher - and yet there are still women who only aspire to find a good husband and have a good family life.
Because ultimately that is their way to reaching contentment.
Isn't contentment the ultimate goal of ambition?
Is it possible that you do Olli a dis-service by not seeing his current ambition as good enough or worthy enough?
It is the ultimate conflict between head over heart & heart over head and we see that conflict arising between Olli & Christian.
Will Olli ever talk about it to Christian if Christian's immediate reaction would be to dismiss it as quickly as you have done?

Hence I do not think for one moment that that was what he was thinking about when Christian asked about life dreams and that he was just not telling Christian because of their level of intimacy. Christian was talking about life dreams, Olli honestly answered that he didn't have one/never had one.

Olli is too perceptive of Christian and is fully aware that should he say his only desire right now is to be with Christian he would come across as looking extremely foolish and maybe even not deserving of Christian's love.
And it is entirely conceivable that this would, indeed, have been Christian's reaction.

For me for it to count as a lifedream/life-ambition Olli woud have to be like the little girls who dream about picking their wedding dress at age 4 and have no other career aspirations other than that. And I don't believe for a second that Olli was like that. Otherwise his relationship with Tom woud have gone very differently and he wouldn't have led the casual easy going lifestyle he led.

You write off the little girl so easily - yet is her dream to aspire to be in love and be content with that, not the greatest of ambitions?

Ultimately we will have to agree to disagree on this subject lest we smother the board with our debate, but it has been fun & thought provoking along the way.

[lolaruns]

Because it rules his life - his every action, his every thought centers around putting Christian first.

I'm sorry, but to me that is total bullshit. I have seen both characters and rl people who really had their pursuit of a particular person or a relationship truly rule their every action. Olli? Does not fit the bill, particularly not all the time and NOT in the time period we are talking about.

Case point, to me Olli's behavior did not change that much after he discovered his fondness of Christian. We also see him build what he thought was a honest connection with somebody on the internet. Or he still had and has time to care for Olivia. We can generally see him do a lot of the things he does for and with Christian with Olivia (who he doesn't love that way) and Tom (whom he didn't love as much and ultimately dumped).

I don't disapprove of people who yearn for love or for a particular person as a life goal. I just don't see Olli being that kind of person and his history so far in my mind supports that.

I actually don't think that Olli necessarily needs a job-life-dream and I don't necessarily see anything wrong with him wanting to make the people around him happy (think of it as the Christian value of caritas; some people become nuns and monks to do it, Olli does it in his private life). I just don't think that that is the same thing as having finding love/a relationship as your main ambition.

Again, I have seen characters like that. I have loved characters like that. Brooke from Bold and The Beautiful who always yearned for Ridge. Carly from General Hospital who always yearned for affection. Courtney from General Hospital who always yearned for a family. I also have a special fondness for Bollywood movies because it is more appropriate there to portay woman who are just about love or just about being mothers. To me, Olli just does not fit the bill. He might be closer to it now that he has already invested so much in the relationship, but even now I fully believe that he would walk away rather than have the relationship be not like what he wants it to be. And he certainly wasn't there yet when Christian asked him about his dream.

Again, if you show me a dog and call it a cat and I point out it's not a cat that doesn't mean I don't like cats. It just means that the specimen provided does not fullfill the requirements of "cat" just because some people want them to.

Head over heart definition

Dictionary defintion the way I was taught it in my English lessons.

Is it possible that you do Olli a dis-service by not seeing his current ambition as good enough or worthy enough?

No, it's a disservice to the character because it ignores both his history and all the other sides that are to him. It's belittling the character because it cuts away large parts of him that are there.

I have always had a huge fondness for characters who lived for love, even romantic love. That why I still have a fondness for Leonard for example and have occasional bursts of affection for Sarah and Leonard even though they are both unpopular and frequently bad and I much prefer the chemistry of Sarah and Gregor. Because there is something beautiful in this singeminded almost fatalistic pursuit of love. I just don't think that Olli falls into the category because I think Olli is more broad then that. Because his love encompasses more people than just Christian and has encompassed a lot of people over time.

You write off the little girl so easily - yet is her dream to aspire to be in love and be content with that, not the greatest of ambitions?

I don't write that girl off that easily. I just don't think that Olli was like her, that that was his lifedream the way it is/was for her. That's why I argue, that chances are that meeting Christian actually went against Olli's plan for his life rather than it being a lifedream you have been holding for a long time.

Olli is too perceptive of Christian and is fully aware that should he say his only desire right now is to be with Christian he would come across as looking extremely foolish and maybe even not deserving of Christian's love.

Christian talked about lifedreams. Olli had realized his feelings for Christian just a few weeks ago. By no stretch could that ever be considered a lifedream (again, especially since it went against Olli's previous lifestyle) nor do I think did Olli think of it as that.

Olli seemed to me positively bewildered by the question, like he genuinely had never thought of it not like he was hiding something. IMO at this point he was nowhere close seeing Christian as his lifedream, as anything more than yet another illfated crush the way you can have many in life (after all he also pursued Tom and pursued Lukas on screen).

If Christian really is Olli's main ambition that that truly means that Olli never had a lifedream because at least in my interpretation of the German word and how it is used on VL in particular definitely denotes a dream that you have been having for most of your life/for a long time, not the biggest dream you had in your life. To me past history suggests that Olli did not have this kind of dream of a relationship before he met Christian. And at that time it was way to new too count as a lifedream.

To me there is tons more evidence of Christian actually having a lifedream of having a happy relationship (maybe as a way to recreate some idealized security of mommy and daddy whom he worshipped?). He has talked about it a lot over the times he has been with the show and it fits his behavrior of repeatedly and very quickly entering relationships and declaring them to be love. A long way from how Olli seems to treat the subject. Christian might not be good at actually treating those relationships well once he has them, but not everybody who has a lifelong desire to be a popsinger also has to have the genes for good singing.

Many people have ambitions that are never realised because their passivity inhibits the agressive desire to pursue them.
I am one of them.
Even though I would be classed as an underachiever it does not mean I have never had ambition and I can honestly say that I have never voiced my ambitions to anyone.
The term "Middle aged crisis" is derived from people who have not realised thier ambitions.

If you never do anything about it, you might as well call it a dream. Which is what Christian called it (sports), a lifedream when he was at the point where he hadn't done anything about it.

[lolaruns]

And to change the subject, yet another take on the episode by 4Lugia (boy this episode surely is inspiring). ;D

[kes]

Sheepiefarm and Lola: thanks for the wonderful discussion. I have to admit, I see the shades of grey Sheepiefarm speaks of. Many people find their "bliss" in just simply being a good partner in a relationship. It is not the person who is the ambition -- but the partnership.

Women were forced into this for centuries, and told it was the only avenue for them to find fulfillment in marriage alone. Obviously, such force coupled with such assumptions are wrong. Yet for some women and men, partnership can be bliss. I use this word “bliss” (in the sense Joseph Campbell uses it – as that which fulfills one), not ambition, because ambition does imply a need to "move up" a ladder.

Really, when I think of Ollie, I think: has he come to terms with that which makes him happy in life, that which makes him fulfilled?

To the degree this lies in helping others, I think he has.

To the degree this involves being in a relationship in which he can love and be of help, he has.

This sense of partnership, of nurturing, is part of who he is.

However, I don't think he knows that this is okay. That is the problem. I don’t think he is fully content with the person he is. He thinks he should be something else.

I cannot give evidence to this point, but while Charlie exudes confidence in the life she has chosen, exudes a sense of being in her element, of living her dream (again, a dream is not an ambition but a way of being in the world, which for some people means acting towards a goal but to other means being content in a role or realm that needs no ladder of movement upwards).

I don't sense the same contentment from Ollie.

I do not have evidence, just a feeling that Olli not completely contented being "Olli." He is self-abasing at times, not selfless – and there is a difference. (Note “at times” – the crux is that all of this lies in shades of grey, not in clear easy to mark distinctions.) That may be Jo's frustration with the character. Only in these bursts of anger does Olli begin to show recognition of his own self, his own needs.

No wonder Olli would fall in love with a man who could reflect back to him his own self-perception. A man who can love him, but not fully see him all the time, who can be oblivious. Christian in his ability to love and in his doltishness reflects both Olli’s comfort in loving others but not complete comfort in caring for himself.

We tend to get what we need to learn what we need in relationships. Olli and Christian have much to teach each other. The point is, will each of them learn anything, and if so, will they learn the right lessons?

Olli does not need an ambition. In the end, indeed, his "bliss" may lie in simply being content with being Olli -- the caring person he is. However, until he comes to terms with that, there is a part of him that will use that ability to love in order to manipulate.

It is a shade of grey that is vital to understand: he can misuse his own gifts if he does not appreciate them or himself.

Here I focus on Olli. I still love his dark side, which I think is his projection of whatever self-loathing he has. But then, I have always seen Ollie has having a dark side. Even in pursuing Christian, he seemed mischievous in his use of Coco. It was subtle, but then I have been on both sides of that coin. The most intriguing cruelties are subtle and hard to detect. That's why they are the most effective -- the other can be made to believe they are nothing, and most other people will, too. (I think Olli’s cruelties towards Coco were placed in that perfect area in which they could be perceived as kindnesses, or worse, of evidence of her irrationality.)

I focus on Olli here, and not Christian. Christian has many faults. But in just focusing on Olli, I can even say this: isn't it a bit strange to force a relationship issue just when one's lover is under the most pressure? He chooses his fighting times well --

The day before Christian's penultimate fight with Axel
A period when Christian has to catch up with exams

I am being very pointed and judmental here. But Olli chooses these times, I think, because they will cause crisis. They will be the most provoking. He will get rebuffed.

And if one hates oneself, that is what one does -- creates the crisis one generally thinks one is due.

[lolaruns]

I cannot give evidence to this point, but while Charlie exudes confidence in the life she has chosen, exudes a sense of being in her element, of living her dream (again, a dream is not an ambition but a way of being in the world, which for some people means acting towards a goal but to other means being content in a role or realm that needs no ladder of movement upwards).

The thing about Charlie is that she has on occasion expressed sadness. But I think ultimately I would still not consider her life wrongly spent. Like, if she looked back at her life she probably still wouldn't do any different.

Women were forced into this for centuries, and told it was the only avenue for them to find fulfillment in marriage alone. Obviously, such force coupled with such assumptions are wrong. Yet for some women and men, partnership can be bliss. I use this word “bliss” (in the sense Joseph Campbell uses it – as that which fulfills one), not ambition, because ambition does imply a need to "move up" a ladder.

I definitely think that for some people it can be absolutely the right choice. For example, the wife of a famous scientist who supports him so he can make the achievements that will benefit the world.

But while I think it's the right choice for some people, maybe even many people, I just don't think that it would necessarily be the right choice for Olli (starting with that I think that deep down Olli doesn't really like boxing and sports all that much; Or rather, it's all the same to him. he supports it because it's what makes Christian happy and not because it gives him a personal kick). Now it might be easier to find other people to surround himself than to find another Christian. But I do think that having other people is important to Olli's balance. And I don't think that Christian alone would ever be enough for him and succeed in making permanently happy.

It's just that I don't really think that getting a job would necessarily make him happier. Now I could certainly could see him get busier and use it as a distraction, but ultimately he doesn't strike me as the kind of person whom a job would make happy. Who would probably be unhappy even with the best job in the world if he didn't have the other off-job things he craves.

On the other hand, I also don't think that Christian alone is enough for Olli. And IMO I could easily picture that being a reason why he's freaking out more. Because maybe he has focused too much on Christian recently, has given up some of his freedom and lifestyle. Before he didn't care as much because he was getting satisfied by the emotional things Christian showed him. Now that that dries up he freaks up.

I do agree that those outbursts are necessary. (and if you think of it, Christian, Mr. Neverfreaksout, should be the first one to be understanding) But at the same time I think that Olli is too moral that he would enjoy becoming more selfish. Or course he could do it for a while, like he did during his crime-spree phase, but ultimately happy making? I have a hard time buying that. I think his bad conscience would always catch up with him and leave him with a feeling of unease. Because I think spending time with people and making them happy, like making Olivia smile truly makes him happy.

If you look at Charlie she has been open about wishing there was somebody in her life. Sometimes she has made herself a fool for love. But ultimately if she was truly desperate she could have done much more to cling to a man or throw herself at one. But with her, down the line, she always chose herself, chose her lifestyle, chose her family and put that first. And because of who Charlie is as a character I don't think that could have possibly done it any other way.

Compared to that I think Olli was never conciously looking for a relationship as much as Charlie has been and the love for Christian rather accidentally landed in his lap. And he is enough of a romantic to want to fight for it. (and hey, in his own way he fought for Tom and Lukas too at certain portions of their story) [besides, looking at the various heartbreaks in his family and gererally around him in soap world, who wouldn't try?). But personally? I don't have a problem picturing Olli as a male Charlie 30 years from now if the thing with Christian doesn't work out because Christian is not willing to give him what he wants. I actually find this kind of relationship style to be actually quite similar in Charlie, Olli and Olivia too. (Lars is the exception. He seems to always get dumped before he can make any decision about how much he enjoys the relationship)

He chooses his fighting times well --

The day before Christian's penultimate fight with Axel
A period when Christian has to catch up with exams

I am being very pointed and judmental here. But Olli chooses these times, I think, because they will cause crisis. They will be the most provoking. He will get rebuffed.

But isn't it equally likely that Christian just gets most focused and crazy and least attentive at those times (regardless of whether that is justified or not; and some people might say that certain behaviors are NEVER ok, regardless of what stress you are under). It's pretty natural to fight in situations of high pressure. My parents always fought the minutes before leaving for a big trip. They didn't enjoy it. They didn't make it to make a larger point. It was just the stress of being in a time crunch situation and having to make sure that you got everything is packed and invariably both their temper exploded.

And it also doesn't explain why Christian had the very same type of fights about both lack of time and/or lack of emotional attention in all his relationships so far.

BTW, I would divide Olli's "dark phase" into three parts. The first part where he himself was petty and petulant and callous, gambling, blowing off the money he had borrowed, being snotty to his friends, stealing from his friends. The second part was about selfish desperation, he was being forced by evil gangsters into these things and he did them to save his own skin. The third part was all about him fighting tooth and nail and fighting dirty for something he loved/for his place (depending on how you prefer to look at it), namely in this case Charlie.

Personally, while he certainly can have a darker side, and if he wants he can hit where it hurts (like some of the things he told Charlie about the Lukas situation), but most of them came in the form of lashing out in anger. IMO most of the things I can remember where just the opposite, evidence of being too emotional, of not thinking ahead, of throwing sponteanous tantrums and reacting heart first rather than anything that would suggest an ability or a taste for more longterm manipulation.

[kes]

Thanks for the response. I find this all very interesting. I appreciate your analysis of Olli. I offer a quick response of my own in between meetings. I hope it serves.

If I were to swing things to an extreme, I would mention the friend I have who cannot be content with one person, but actually has six relationships going on openly at a time. (He calls it polyamory.) The French film, appropropriate labeled French Twist explores the idea rather humorously -- that we can live in groups greater than two.

I have friends who have been married for years and who have children but have been open about affairs with partners. (And here I do not refer to Mormons, but to "progressive" "out of the box" people.)

I do not think you are necessarily insinuating that Olli needs another romance, but I just wanted to introduce the idea that some people choose different styles to the discussion.

It doesn't apply to Olli, but may apply to others. (And you hint at this, too, in noting Olivia and Charlie's choice not to commit to one person.) I think that Olli needs friends and nightlife, but my guess is he is very monogamous. In the end, would he want to be a Charlie? I'm not so sure, but I will try to look at Olli with your eyes for a while. My own take on him tends to be that he loves being a partner, but has yet to fully understand his own needs. I see him as darker, but love him more for it.

Just so you know, I don't hold Christian blameless. Quite the opposite. Generally, he is better at giving advice than listening (as you have often noted) and he doesn't really try to understand himself much, introspection comes hard to him.

He becomes especially doltish in times of stress, and can be a complete jerk. I am focusing on Olli here -- in this case because I find him interesting.

But I was perhaps too hard on Olli -- couples do (as you note) tend to act out their worst behaviors during stressful periods, and that's par for the course.

You know more than I about Olli's dark side, for I have yet to watch the Ulli series in its entirety. I still think he manipulated Coco, but that may be my experience shaping my perceptions.

I agree that Charlie lives the life she has chosen and generally likes her choice, albeit even if it comes with loneliness. That's why she remains one of my favorite characters. Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to today's episode. Thanks for the links and for the reminder to hit Soap Opera Digest.

[Bonobochick]

Nov 10, 2008 12:27:18 GMT -5 kes said:

Just so you know, I don't hold Christian blameless. Quite the opposite. Generally, he is better at giving advice than listening (as you have often noted) and he doesn't really try to understand himself much, introspection comes hard to him.

Obviously mileage varies but I disagree. I think Christian is terrible at giving advice but better at listening. I think he's good to go to as a sounding board when folks want to get things off their chest & just need an ear but I find the advice he gives folks, especially Gregor, to be very wanting.

[lolaruns]

In the end, would he want to be a Charlie?

The thing is, not even Charlie wants to be a Charlie Charlie would very much prefer to be a Charlie with a relationship and true love to being a Charlie without a relationship of her own. But since she hasn't found the right guy yet to be in a relationship while still being Charlie (or if she found out some outside influence always ruined it), she is still I think fairly content with her life as it is.

So I think it's natural to Olli wants his life and Christian as a bonus. The question is whether Christian is the incredibly bonus and present from the universe that Olli gladly accepts or he is the alpha and the omega. I tend to see it more from the amazing present that Olli really, really loves perspective.

BTW, I wasn't thinking/suggesting that Olli needs to sleep with more people/be with more than one person romantically at the same time. I see it more as the Sex and The City philosophy where Carrie has Big as her main guy but even when she doesn't have him she considers her three friends her soulmates and they do contribute to fullfilling her.

And particularly in Olli's case I think he has a wide variety of emotional needs and demands that Christian is unlikely to be able to fill all at the same time. Partly naturally because Chritian can be a bit stunted in that area, but also partly because it would be unfair to any one person to be expected to fullfill every aspect, particularly is somebody has a fairly complex system of demands.

You know more than I about Olli's dark side, for I have yet to watch the Ulli series in its entirety.

It's definitely a matter of personal interpretation here. But to me the gist of the story always came across to me like they were suggesting that Olli's biggest flaw was a tendency to be irrational and short sighted (the flip side of being sponteanous and emotional), with a tendency to throw tantrums and that he could be cruel when he was lashing out. And that he had a tendency to lash out when frustrated or even out of the blue.

Case point, Olli gets almost ran over by a car and throws a justified but still larger than average fit before even realizing that the guy he is ranting about is Ulli. He keeps the tantrums and jealousies up. Now, Olli has changed since then, but to me back then I think the concept of the Olli character was of somebody who is unable to control and hold back his feelings. He sees Tom with Ulli, he will throw a tantrum right at the spot. He wants to kiss Tom? He will do so immediately. He feels bad? He'll sing Tom a song. So the concept was of somebody who is very unfiltered for lack of a better word. So more like the opposite of somebody who is capable of holding back his true feelings and manipulating. Naturally he got a bit better in regards to not blurting everything out immediately and being more mature, but particularly during the "dark phase" that character trait about not having much self control and consistency and just doing what he felt like, the tendency to react very emotionally was to me very much present and was the thing that kept getting him into hot waters. Precisely that he was not good at pre-planning.

I collected the summaries from that time period somewhere in this forum, I'll see if I can find them again.

[lolaruns]

Obviously mileage varies but I disagree. I think Christian is terrible at giving advice but better at listening. I think he's good to go to as a sounding board when folks want to get things off their chest & just need an ear but I find the advice he gives folks, especially Gregor, to be very wanting.

To me it always seems like he is citing some book of morals and guidelines without checking whether the advise actually fits the situation. Sometimes he gets lucky and the advice is actually the right one for the situation but plenty of times it doesn't fit.

[seven14]

Nov 10, 2008 11:22:18 GMT -5 kes said:

I do not have evidence, just a feeling that Olli not completely contented being "Olli." He is self-abasing at times, not selfless – and there is a difference. (Note “at times” – the crux is that all of this lies in shades of grey, not in clear easy to mark distinctions.) That may be Jo's frustration with the character. Only in these bursts of anger does Olli begin to show recognition of his own self, his own needs.

No wonder Olli would fall in love with a man who could reflect back to him his own self-perception. A man who can love him, but not fully see him all the time, who can be oblivious. Christian in his ability to love and in his doltishness reflects both Olli’s comfort in loving others but not complete comfort in caring for himself.

We tend to get what we need to learn what we need in relationships. Olli and Christian have much to teach each other. The point is, will each of them learn anything, and if so, will they learn the right lessons?

Olli does not need an ambition. In the end, indeed, his "bliss" may lie in simply being content with being Olli -- the caring person he is. However, until he comes to terms with that, there is a part of him that will use that ability to love in order to manipulate.

It is a shade of grey that is vital to understand: he can misuse his own gifts if he does not appreciate them or himself.

Here I focus on Olli. I still love his dark side, which I think is his projection of whatever self-loathing he has. But then, I have always seen Ollie has having a dark side. Even in pursuing Christian, he seemed mischievous in his use of Coco. It was subtle, but then I have been on both sides of that coin. The most intriguing cruelties are subtle and hard to detect. That's why they are the most effective -- the other can be made to believe they are nothing, and most other people will, too. (I think Olli’s cruelties towards Coco were placed in that perfect area in which they could be perceived as kindnesses, or worse, of evidence of her irrationality.)

I focus on Olli here, and not Christian. Christian has many faults. But in just focusing on Olli, I can even say this: isn't it a bit strange to force a relationship issue just when one's lover is under the most pressure? He chooses his fighting times well --

The day before Christian's penultimate fight with Axel
A period when Christian has to catch up with exams

I am being very pointed and judmental here. But Olli chooses these times, I think, because they will cause crisis. They will be the most provoking. He will get rebuffed.

And if one hates oneself, that is what one does -- creates the crisis one generally thinks one is due.

kes your writing and take on Olli's character is sooo good!! Thank you for your insights!!

To me,The writers want to have us believe Olli is some Blank Slate...some No to Low ambitious Angel existing on Earth just for the happiness of all around him especially Christian....but he's not an Angel....he's real and human, and when he returns from "Ibiza," I hope to be pleasantly surprised with the shenanigans and drama he and Christian can get tangled into...

I think the actor Jo Weil's schedule was the thing that got in the way...to give TPTB the benefit of the doubt..I think when they brought Jo back to the show last Fall, they had no idea how Hot Olli and Christian's romance would be...so they hadn't prepared in advance for when he would be leaving for his Play..they concentrated on other stories and didn't have enough good material left over when the time came..so to me they rehashed old drama and tried to get away with it ..thinking no one would notice...but many of us noticed and I believe they will do better once Jo returns....I truly hope[/b] they do better.

[kes]

Thanks seven 14. You made my night with your kind words.

I am hard on Olli, but I love him, too. I'm a Scorpio, and if there is anything to astrology, we are supposed to be fairly intense and even manipulative, so I appreciate these qualities in Olli when I see them.

(We get jealous, too, so I appreciate this about Christian. I would never be able to send Olli out on the beach for a month. No, I'd want to be with him -- and preferably in a more clothed climate, so no one would take him away from me -- maybe Siberia?)

I appreciate Jo and Christian's "dark sides" because both actors are able to so render them so real, without making their characters villains. Jo creates Ollie as a loving, beautiful, and occasionally lost and mischevious, man. As Judith might say: so normal. In the soap world: so fun.

What did you think of today's episode? I felt let down. Friday felt Okay to me. I liked it. Today?

I think you are right: VL didn't realize what was coming. (Thanks for your perceptiveness, by the way -- your insight here gives me hope.) The writers had to rush this. However, today seemed so anti-romantic -- the lack of any real physical passion, the kind any romantic couple on a soap opera would express under these circumstances, I suppose that dissapointed me the most.

It's not that I need the thrill of seeing the passion -- that is not it. There are lot's of thrills to be had on YouTube or on any number of sites. I could watch other soaps, too, for that matter.

But it wouldn't be Christian and Olli -- not what they have given. The soul needs the nourishment of seeing love honored. When I see Olli and Christian being fully human, fully expressed, something feels right with the world. Even if they were fully expressing the drama other soap couples do -- that would feel right, too.

I'm not a gay man, so I can't fully understand that reality. However, I get so damned pissed that that reality has to be rendered painful in the real world, and rendered a joke or totally erased in the media.

Ollie and Christian heal some of that, make room for a different way of being . . . a way that makes all things possible.

[kes]

(Carla touches me, too. Will she now be allowed to love? Lesbians and gays can't share a screen, and must be set in competition for those precious six minutes allowed for the full expression of love. I wish Judith were writing for VL. She'd get it right. So would Constantine. Hell, Olivia could do better than today's episode . . . Olivia would have written something fun.)

I know: I am getting political here. However, I'd put it this way: the writers got political today. (Would any soap couple be given such a tepid goodbye? Gregor and Rebecca had lurid sex in the episodes before she left, and he cried as she drove away.)

Today was a political choice. I'm just taking note . . .

[lolaruns]

Lesbians and gays can't share a screen, and must be set in competition for those precious six minutes allowed for the full expression of love.

Do you mean as in the much rumoured about (though technically not proven) rule about lesbians and gays not having a romantic storyline at the same time? Because when it comes to just scenes, lesbian Nina was an integral part of the Tom and Ulli storyline, a real close friend and advisor and they shared scenes all the time.

(Would any soap couple be given such a tepid goodbye? Gregor and Rebecca had lurid sex in the episodes before she left, and he cried as she drove away.)

I was gonna pipe up that Susanne and Carla did... then I realized that that kinda leads into your point.... I do think that there have been tepid goodbyes particularly when a character was leaving for not a very long time. But because of their tepid nature naturally we are unlikely to remember them (to be fair in Gregor and Rebecca she wasn't just leaving for a vacation. it was also the end of their relationship altogether. So it was breakup and goodbye combined in one)