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Post by psionycx on Nov 8, 2008 2:05:26 GMT -5
I think that mona and brownsugar raise some excellent points here.
To these I would like to add that Olli has paid a very high price for this relationship. Much higher than what Christian paid all things considered. After all, he very nearly died because of Axel's assault!
(Fortunately his beautiful hair remained perfectly intact, even after brain surgery)
So for Olli there has to be this question about the relationship in his mind, having paid such a high price for it. Also having made so many sacrifices, because he genuinely did submerge his own needs to the point of near-self-abandonment for a while there. All in order to accommodate Christian.
Thus it's not surprising that he's feeling lonely with Christian in yet another one of his tunnel vision states. Their relationship to date has actually been pretty traumatic when you think about it. It wouldn't be surprising if Olli feels insecure and isolated. He put so much into this and he's maybe not getting what he needs back out of it.
Christian is rather obsessive. When he's got a mission he focuses on it completely. This bodes well for boxing or studies but can be a problem in a relationship. It's not that he's being emotionally or physically unfaithful. But he does tend to put the relationship on pause when he's off on one of his quests. Naturally he comes back around to Olli eventually, but he's oblivious to the damage he might have done in the meantime.
On the one hand it shows his confidence in their relationship, which is sweet. But it also shows a lack of empathy, which we all know is an issue with him. He's very pragmatic and doesn't always factor emotions into his expectations of how other people think.
I'm with sheepie on the whole thing about this coming out of the blue though. It's rather like the last time when Olli became inexplicably neurotic because Christian was distant during the last week before the big boxing match with Axel. I realize that Christian and Olli are not main characters but a few minutes of hints might be squeezed in before one of these blow-ups occurs. Otherwise we're going to have to start tracking the phases of the Moon or something.
There is something of a trend to it though. Olli seems to get like this whenever Christian becomes very obsessed with something. It's like he needs some reassurance that he's still important to Christian.
It really is nice to have an episode-thread again, although I'm guessing there won't be many in the coming months.
As always many thanks and much love to our beloved Ivan, Nanna and Tihkon! What would we do without you guys?
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Post by lolaruns on Nov 8, 2008 3:07:16 GMT -5
4Lugia's addendumInteresting point by her about how it seemed almost like a swipe when Christian mentioned that he had been losing study time because of the Axel situation. Christian giving Olli the ticket was pure pragmatic Christian to the max. Olli feels neglected. Instead of saying "Ok, I'll try to make more time for you" what he is essentially saying is "I'm not going to make any time for you in the near future so take this ticket so at least you will be having Ibiza like fun while I'm not making time for you". It's just the kind of thing where you just know that it makes sense in Christian's head ;D Olli's feakout really was epic. I went "whoa" during it a bunch of times. But it was fun to see Jo/Olli like that. Interestingly on the German board some people talked about to them it seemed to hearken back to the "old" Olli. Particularly since Olli also could get pissy very quickly when he felt neglected by Tom and that Olli himself was always very casual about blowing off his own studies. So I can see why he might just naturally assume that other people are supposed to be able to be just as casual about it. Otherwise, I laughed again how obviously don't really reshoot the scenes. Particularly where Olli tries to put the belt around Christian,the belt gets stuck in Christian's hair and only then Olli is able to place it properly ;D There were obviously a lot of writing weaknesses in this. Most notably Olli suggesting the Ibiza vacation and then Christian buying the ticket and then Olli being totally on board with hit as long as he thought that it was the two of them going when Charlie just said that after this evening she didn't plan to let him go again and that without Angelo she is going through a rough patch. And of course Olli saying that they see little of each other when we have seen them together fairly recently at Rebecca's party and when they came home from the club (btw: note when Olli was extolling the virtues of Ibiza he immediately started praising his favorite club and got very excited about it). I would have preferred if they had focused on the lack of romance part, that maybe they were seeing each other, but it wasn't quality time because Christian maybe always ran off to his study groups before they could talk to each other (and would it really have been that hard to actually include that in a scene? Just ending a scene with Christian giving Olli a cheek kiss and running off? Sigh.) That's the problem when the majority of scenes take place off screen. Maybe there were no signals. After all we all agreed that they looked mightily at peace for example at Rebecca's party. Other than that I thought the episode was well played and well directed. ETA: Btw, I found it extremely amusing that Christian walked into the room, turned on the lights, shut the door quite loudly and THEN said "Oh, you aren't sleeping" ;D [btw, I have always hated the word Zicke/zickig (Bitch/bitchy). I always felt that the German word here is much meaner than the English word here because to me it sounds more like a judgement that somebody has a fundamental character flaw. At least bitch and bitchy can be means in a positive aggressive way or in an excusartory way [we all can be a bit bitchy when he are in a bad mood]. But to me the German word goes more in the direction of petty and whiny and fundamentally not playing well with others and taking things out on others who don't deserve it. Or mabye I've just been watching too much Popstars [some celebrity casting show where trying to identify the Zicke is always taken to be finding the bad apple who needs to be kicked off]. BTW, Zicke means female goat as opposed to female dog]
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Post by evilgeniuslady on Nov 8, 2008 5:08:01 GMT -5
It's starting to seem very much in character that Olli will eventually go into hissy fits and emotional meltdowns if he feels neglected - which I think is quite easy for him to do once in a while, since Christian is basically the only important constant in his life. Olli reaaaally needs a dream of his own, other than being with Christian, so that he can focus on other things once in a while. It's also very much in character that Christian won't notice until the meltdown is already in progress. Usually I'd be annoyed at him, especially if he was doing it because of his boxing, but since it's because of his studying I am completely on his side (yeah, I'm totally biased on this ). The buying of one ticket to Ibiza, however? I totally see the reasoning for it, but it's so typically Christian's practical way of thinking, and completely at odds with Olli's more emotional approach, that he should have seen the conflicts over that coming from a mile away. Oh Christian. (I am far too entertained by his constant ability to put his foot in his mouth by being overly practical in his emotional approach to be truly upset with him.)
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Post by lolaruns on Nov 8, 2008 6:45:16 GMT -5
Except that Christian has profited A LOT from Olli being so attentive when Olli had the time and headspace to support him through going to university, through his coming to terms with his sexuality and though his boxing. Looking at Christian's past history with Coco and Nico he is usually in the front line complaining when he doesn't see enough of his gf. And he *said* he was supportive of Nico and Coco's job aspirations but he still fell in love with Coco respectively Olli.
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karina
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It's not a question of being straight or gay; it's a question of love
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Post by karina on Nov 8, 2008 7:12:36 GMT -5
I'm not that good at analysing episodes and I've never done it before so please bear with me, but for me it just seems like Olli is totally exhausted by everything and thus lashes out at everyone. He's desperatly trying to reach out for Christian, wanting some peace and quiet with his boyfriend that he loves so much, but Christian is unaviable because of his studies and this wears on Olli even more. I can totally see myself in Olli's behaviour here and therefor his reaction to everything is "by the book". In some way, it's almost the reaction of a spoiled kid, but when your frustration, sadness and despair reaches a crucial point, anger, maybe even fury, is the only way out because it doesn't seem like you can get your message across in another way... Olli wants to be close to Christian in the bathroom - Christian blows him off. He makes a nice candle light dinner for Christian - again Christian is not aviable. I'm not blaming Christian; he's busy, but because Olli is in the state of mind that he is; his understanding and compassion is just not there. I hope that for Olli's sake that he'll tell Christian in a calm matter "kor lande ligg", but it doesn't seem like he's going to react so easily to Christian's stupidity, I mean... Lack of "inner knowledge". He's becoming frantic in his behavior, and I think Christian is supposed to come off as really oblivious in this episode just to emphasize Olli's desperate need for a change, not because he's an asshole or that he doesn't care for Olli or anything like that. I seriously believe that this episode was very well thought through by the writers. It's all about Olli and how the feelings he's carrying inside of him is now making him blow up in everyone's faces, especially Christian's. Hopefully, they will get to talk for real and Olli will get what he needs from Christian. I think we'll see just how great Christian is and that he maybe knows his boyfriend a whole lot better than we let him take credit for?
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restenergy
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Olli forever (and Christian, too)
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Post by restenergy on Nov 8, 2008 10:40:32 GMT -5
First of all, I think the blow up was much too sudden. Just like it was before the boxing match. Although there it could be somewhat excused because there was a bit of set-up, if somewhat oblique. Here it pretty much came out of the blue. Maybe the lack of any O&C scenes (except as supporting characters or in groups) was supposed to be set up. But the problem is, it makes nothing explicit. Just a few passing comments from Olli to Judith or Gregor would have helped. Or a scene here or there were they are passing one another in the living room or No Limits with Olli wanting to do something or spend time with Christian and Christian running off to school or to study. But we didn't see that, so this all seems quite sudden. Christian is oblivious because he's become so focused now on catching up with school and with the looming exams. It makes sense, both from a practical standpoint and from the characterization of Christian. He's being responsible and doing what needs to be done. From Christian's point-of-view, all of the actions he's taken are completely justified in the episode. And it certainly seems that many of us can see that his decisions (well, up until the very end, at least) are responsible and understandable ones. He's got to study. He's got to be able to do well on this exam. Practical Christian, trying, I think, to make some effort and having heard Olli suggest wanting to go to Ibiza, rather obliviously thinks that Olli wants to got to Ibiza rather than Olli wants to spend time with Christian and chooses the idea of Ibiza to do so. And that even makes sense for Christian, even if he looses us there as we can see it's all wrong at that point. But from Olli's point-of-view, things make sense to me as well. He certainly over reacts to it. He goes overboard when he's storming at Christian. But Olli has every right to be upset. Christian rebuffs him in the bathroom. That, itself, is merely frustrating for Olli. It's not the full trigger here. Olli was a bit pissed off about that and left in a bit of a huff. But that, too, is understandable. He wasn't talking about blowing off the whole day, just a few minutes together. But even that was rebuffed. It's understandable that wouldn't make Olli happy. Olli's puppy dog eyes and reaction with Charlie make it clear to me that he really does value his relationship with Christian. And I can easily see that, while they do literally see one another, and even spend time together at things like Rebecca's party, things are getting subsumed into regular, everyday life. It's that they don't get much alone couple time, and getting into bed and a short cuddle before sleep doesn't necessarily count. I think that's realistic, and many couples will eventually struggle with such situations at some point. But when Olli obviously put a good deal of effort into the dinner and setting up for it, and Christian blows him off again, that's the real trigger here. Christian had suggested spending time together in the evening. Olli arranges it. Christian blows it off. It's completely understandable that Olli would be very upset with that, and be quite uninterested in being amorous when Christian gets home (fairly late). He's also been stewing the whole time. Judith should have left him another piece of her monster chocolate cake. And did anyone notice that Olli was tired of being the comic relief? And the chicken. Go Erwin! And, just to spend some time in the shallows, they could definitely do more scenes with Christian putting laundry into the machine. Olli should mingle his laundry with Christian' s, too. ;D
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Post by aussie54 on Nov 8, 2008 14:41:46 GMT -5
One of the things that makes me dislike the plotting/writing of these scenes is the fact that while Olli was in hospital, Christian specifically spoke to Gregor about how Olli had constantly stood back and put up with things, and Christian felt really bad about that. He seemed to promise that it wouldn't happen again. Until next time.
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Post by mona on Nov 8, 2008 14:48:22 GMT -5
He should really remember that. What did he say? Olli was ALWAYS okay with everything. Next time it could be boxing again and and and. Normally hospital storys are leading to more attention, being more open etc. because he could have lost him. Then again, Christian is slow and it looks like he forgets about things like the hospital pretty fast. It could come to his mind on monday.
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Post by sheepiefarm on Nov 8, 2008 17:31:08 GMT -5
I think one of the things that may have been lacking of late between them as a couple is spontaneity. Who can forget Olli's excitement when they made love in the gymnasium - all those months back - especially Olli's gently mocking "Ooh" when Christian mentioned that the doors weren't locked. Olli has led a fairly spontaneous life - highlighted beautifully in tonight's episode in his eagerness to talk Charlie into giving him the night off. Olli is definitely a passionate guy, but with that passion probably comes a low boredom threshold - it is easy to understand how their current day to day existence - although probably loving & caring - may have seemed to become a bit humdrum for Olli. This is also indicated by his efforts to secure the Ibiza holiday for them - why not just a night/weekend away - Olli's spontaneity is extreme in it's extravagance, but then Olli never does thing by half - how many guys would have clung on to the hope of getting Christian to start with. Initially - I was perplexed by the suddeness of Olli's outburst and could only put it down to the fact that their love-life had diminished somewhat and thus justify Olli's frustration, however this isn't borne out by the willingness of Christian when he comes to bed at the end of the day, suggesting (imo) that things are fairly routine in the bedroom department.
It makes much more sense to me that Olli's outburst, passionate and extreme as it was, has arisen more from a sense of boredom rather than real neglect. This is not to say that he loves and cares for Christian any less but it is possible that he is now feeling more inadequate as a partner in the relationship than ever before. The whole of Olli's existence in his relationship with Christian has been about giving - facilitating whatever Christian has needed, both in learning to accept and show his feelings towards Olli and in encouraging him to take control of his life - rather than just drifting along as an ex-con. They have now reached the stage where Christian has begun to achieve, and in some small way has moved on from needing Olli's help. This is bound to have an effect on Olli - in effect, making his world seem smaller and less useful than previously. It is therefore not hard to inderstand his anxiety, insecurity and need for Christian to be more attentive towards him.
There has been much talk & speculation on other threads regarding new writers coming on board and how this may affect the quality of the Ollian story. The more I have watched this episode and thought about it - the more impressed I have become by the manner in which it has been written & crafted. Today's episode showed our boys in all thier finery - Olli at his most passionate & Christian at his most pragmatic. From the sexed up teasing in the bathroom to the blissfully ignorant Christian not noticing the romantic meal - from the sharp wit of Olli's Comic relief retort to the highly profound cackling of Erwin in the background as the camera focused on Christian perplexed face. It seems to me that the writers have done their homework and captured the very essence that is the backbone of these two characters and the relationship that exists between them. It is sad that there will be no Ollian in the run up to Xmas but if this is the magnitude of what we can expect to come from them, then I think we all have something to look forward to.
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Post by italiansunflower on Nov 8, 2008 18:55:59 GMT -5
I'd really like to say that I agree with you, Sheepifarm... but I can't ! I like your way to see this episode, so much more positive than mine... but sadly I'm with who - here or in other threat - wrote their doubt about the writing .... The fight and the misunderstanding come out from nowhere... they are without sense... Christian seems SO (too much !) blind and Olli feels SO (too much) neglected... without a real cause... not on screen, at least... I think that the writers didn't spend a lot of time in thinking about this short part of Ollian Love Story... they just found a reason to explain why Olli is away... but it's an allogical reason, IMO.... It is like: - "Christian, I want to spend more quality time with you" - "Olli, darling... you can go to Ibiza alone ! Have fun !" - "Ok, thank you, Chris" I can't find the sense of it.... But I hope that I'm wrong and that you're right Sheepi, and that the new writers will be able to imagine a very good storyline about Ollian, when Olli will be back .... And till that moment... I will be missing Olli (and OLLIAN) SO SO SO MUCH !!!
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Post by lolaruns on Nov 8, 2008 19:05:24 GMT -5
The thing is, is it really just attention Olli seeks? Olli said he missed Romantik. If it was just attention he wanted why not just go for he sex when Christian comes home? To me that seemed to imply more that Olli feels like the quality of their interaction has gone down.
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Post by mona on Nov 8, 2008 19:32:55 GMT -5
I'd really like to say that I agree with you, SheepifarmChristian seems SO (too much !) blind and Olli feels SO (too much) neglected... without a real cause... not on screen, at least... It is like: - "Christian, I want to spend more quality time with you" - "Olli, darling... you can go to Ibiza alone ! Have fun !" - "Ok, thank you, Chris" I can't find the sense of it.... Reading it like that, it's really dumb, that's true ;D IMO to "save" the arguement and make it better, they have to show a real meaningful conversation tomorrow where Olli (and we of course)can feel the love or romance in some way. I think it's okay if Olli feels loved enough in the end I thought he could remember Cocos words,too when she said that the first months were great and then Christian didn't get how she was feeling . Olli saw the end of Christian and Coco and just thinking Christian seems to act like he did then could be responsible for the fear. I love to think that it's just Christians weird behaviour before something important (boxing ,exam,...) They got over their first fight and it was about the same topic, staying optimistic is good in that case. But I think they could get more problems (Christian not changing enough and I don't think the one night stand theory is unrealistic for Olli now) I just hope Christian is doing something incredible romantic in the future, knowing that Olli missed that in their relationship. Because the worst thing for me would be if they would say someday, their relationship wasn't worth the fighting. But I think the heart in the background is romantic,too and I hope Christian had the idea
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Post by amber80 on Nov 8, 2008 19:40:18 GMT -5
Best part for me (apart from half naked Christian of course ;D) was Erwin and the noise he produced. I was rolling with laughter and couldn't take the whole fight seriously after that.
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Post by summerinthecity on Nov 8, 2008 21:21:52 GMT -5
Suggesting that Oli should go on his own and even buying the flight ticket as a way to say sorry is totally misguided, of course (this guy shouldn't tell other's how to fix their lovelife ;D). I can't help feeling though it was sort of a plot device so that Oli won't look utterly childish and selfish going to Ibiza on his own without Christian. What if Christian had just said "No, sorry I can't come" and Oli - being petulant and still throwing a tantrum -had answered, "Well in this case I'll go on my own, good luck with your exams, see you around". In this case Christian could have either said "O.k. then, do what you must do" (not good) or "Please stay" (much better - but Oli couldn't have stayed because Jo Weil was doing "Ganze Kerle .... ") It 's still a bit weird - how practical can you get . I wonder how they will untie this knot on Monday if at all ...
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Post by sheepiefarm on Nov 8, 2008 21:42:16 GMT -5
The thing is, is it really just attention Olli seeks? Olli said he missed Romantik. If it was just attention he wanted why not just go for he sex when Christian comes home? To me that seemed to imply more that Olli feels like the quality of their interaction has gone down. No, Olli is not looking for more attention - he is looking for Christian to be more attentive - there is a difference, subtle though it may be. Christian coming home, having sex and then rolling over and falling asleep would class as Olli recieving attention. Chris coming home with a bunch of roses, telling Olli how much he has missed him and that he's been thinking about him all day, dragging him into the bathroom to have a hot steamy bath together without locking the door, coming home at lunchtime to take Olli for a picnic in the park just for the hell of it - things like that are being attentive, because things like that are what pleases Olli. To me this is what Olli is missing or hoping for. This of course leads us to the question of - would Christian ever be likely to be like this - (imo) no - Christian is too pragmatic - it is a huge fundamental difference between these two - and he only has occasional romantic ideas, usually linked to special days - such is the pragmatic mind of Christian. Olli fell headlong into this relationship and has invested everything into it - bearing in mind he places a higher value on self-sacrifice than he does on responsibility & commitment - (imo) it is not hard to see why he might be feeling that the same level of self-sacrifice is not being returned. Olli wants to be loved as badly, madly and deeply as he himself loves, and though he never voices it - as is the nature of his self-sacrifice - he needs to feel that he is. If he is not, his self-sacrificial nature will hold him in check, but it will boil away inside him till eventually "BOOM" it will explode in a torrent of passion and in turn become totally illogical. This is where we see the contrast between him & Christian. Because Olli has been playing the dutiful & loving partner - remember his whole approach to loving is to please or do what's best for his lover it is not surprising (imo) that Christian is completely oblivious to the volcano that is boiling away inside Olli. Highlighted beautifully in Christian's reaction to the romantic dinner. Initially he doesn't even register that it was done for him - why would he - Olli told him him he would be working - Olli has not contacted him through the day to say he has changed his plans and is planning a romantic dinner for the two of them - Christian makes his own plans and subsequently doesn't register the importance when he comes home - remember, Olli has already blown him off when he suggested they do something that evening. Christian's logical mind is saying, I suggested we do something, you blew me off, I've made plans, you've changed your mind but didn't tell me, I can't let these people down now, sorry I have to go. Christian is not the most perceptive of people - his thinking is too logical & pragmatic - we could see this with the advice he gave to Gregor about Rebecca - he just wanted to see his brother settled in a good relationship. In his mind Gregor's whoring ways were destructive, Rebecca was a sound woman, on the face of it they got on well - therefore he actively encouraged the relationship. Whenever he talked with Gregor he always failed to read what Gregor wasn't actually saying.It is the same here with Olli - when Olli blows up at the dinner table, Christians only thought is that Olli is angry because Christian can't stay for dinner - yet Christian's logical mind still tells him that he's not at fault - how can he be, Olli did this without telling him and Olli will realise that when he's had time to calm down & think about it - hence the reason that Christian is still oblivious when he comes home and makes amorous advances to Olli in the bedroom. One of the real problems that these two guys have is that they don't talk honestly to each other. Olli is perhaps the more guilty of the two at this - but again this is down to his self-sacrificial nature of loving. It is not for him to burden his problems on Christian - Olli's true soul-mate is a lover who will recognise that Olli needs to talk and encourage him to do so without prompting. We can go back a few months to the day when Christian asked Olli what his ambitions were - Olli sidestepped the question without really answering it and Christian let it pass - (imo) this sends a signal to Olli that in order to obtain Christian's love he must not burden him with his own feelings other than those which express his utter devotion to ChristianThis lack of true understanding of Olli is again highlighted when Christian offers him the ticket to Ibiza. He still has not registered the true nature of Olli's discontent - he thinks Olli just needs time off, time out, away from the daily drudge of daily life - and why wouldn't he - Olli has had a hellish time these past few months. Yes, he is aware that Olli would prefer that time to be spent with Christian at his side - but how can he - he is behind with his studies and has a big exam coming up. Olli must surely want him to pass this exam because it was Olli who encouraged him to go to college and pursue his dreams initially, therefore he must know the significance of allowing Olli to go without him. By procuring the ticket for Olli - Christian believes he is doing what Olli wants. Christian does not understand that the gesture that Olli really wants is for him to say fuck the exam you're more important to me, let's go away together. Wow - sorry for the long post guys. It is a long time since I felt any compulsion to become involved in the discussion of Ollian - the homophobia in boxing story just didn't work for me, however this episode, which (imo) brought their story right back to fundamental relationship issues has really clicked with me but then Lola you know I'm an angst over happy but nothing happens kinda guy anyway This is only my interpretation of the story and how I make it work for me - if we get more of this, I'm hooked right back in there.
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kes
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Without community, there is no liberation. Audre Lorde
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Post by kes on Nov 8, 2008 21:59:38 GMT -5
Sheepiefarm: I love your long posts. Thanks. What a great discussion today.
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Post by brownsugar on Nov 8, 2008 22:51:52 GMT -5
Excellent post sheepiefarm, with some thoughtful and insightful points.
You know what was also really telling about Christian's lack of insight towards Olli's wants, apart from his complete blindness at the romantic dinner Olli had prepared for them, was his attitude when he arrived back home that night. When Christian walked into their bedroom and saw Olli still awake, it came across as though he was going to have sex with Olli as his civic 'duty' since Olli had waited up for him. It came off as condescending, insulting even, as though Christian felt obligated, not so much willing, but obligated to do his job. Then I'm sure it would be...duty completed, husband satifised...good night!! And with that kind of attitude it's no wonder Olli went into a rage. Christian much realise tt's not just about sex, . It's about canceling that late night meet up with classmates, it's about spontaneously bringing home a single rose or thoughtful card and giving it to Olli, it's about coming home early and saying to Olli 'lets go out for a meal' or 'lets go see a movie' or get in a couple of DVDs and curl up on the couch together. This obviously isn't happening although we the viewer haven't been privy to it since it's all taking place off camera. So I'm assuming of course.
And the single ticket to Ibiza was like a punch to the gut for Olli. I'm sure to him it looked as though Christian just wanted to get rid of him so he could have some time alone to do his studies without the whining and pressure.
I thought Jo played that last scene by the bar extremely well. His expression and body language when Christian made it know he had only brought one ticket for Olli was superbly played by Jo. The look on his face said it all. I can't wait for Monday to see what happens next.
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Post by mona on Nov 8, 2008 23:23:28 GMT -5
I thought Christian was slamming the door to wake Olli up because he was horny ;D like "Oh, you're awake" but who wouldn't be after turning the light on and slamming the door
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Post by aussie54 on Nov 9, 2008 0:22:18 GMT -5
Sheepie said Well, I can see only one solution. They must bring back Constantin and hook him up with Olli. He might even buy a star for him.
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Post by brownsugar on Nov 9, 2008 0:27:36 GMT -5
I thought Christian was slamming the door to wake Olli up because he was horny ;D like "Oh, you're awake" but who wouldn't be after turning the light on and slamming the door That is too funny because it is so true. Then again, we all know how out of touch Christian is to his surrounds and consideration to Olli's feelings. So going into the bedroom very late at night, knowing that Olli could very well be fast asleep didn't deter him from slamming the door and turning on the lights.
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Post by lolaruns on Nov 9, 2008 10:50:06 GMT -5
That presumes that Olli had own feelings in regards to career and the like and suppressed them. Rather than genuinely not having any particular dreams at this point. Considering that Olli has been drifting for a long time why wouldn't it be the truth?
I'm also a bit weirded out when people seem to suggest (not you, just in general/people on youtube) that all that is needed to fix the situation is for Olli to get a cooler job. Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because it always ends up sounding like the solution for the problem would be for Olli to stop wanting it (and maybe subliminate it into working) as opposed to them compromising. And the question is, would that really work? Most people don't stop craving romance just because they work in their dream job. With the kind of personality Olli has, I find it just as likely that he might start craving it even more after he comes home after a long exhausting day, even if the day was dream-satisfying. And who is to say that Christian would in that case be more likely to give it? Past evidence has shown that Christian was NOT better at being emotionally attentive to Nico and Coco who both had jobs and ambitions.
In reality that always led to _more_ arguments about bad scheduling and not having much time for each other. And if Olli suddenly gets much satisfaction out of his dream job yet on the other hand Christian doesn't necessarily become more skilled at being attentive (example his idea of a good time being dragging somebody into the woods) and/or you have the angle about even more bad scheduling, would that really make the relationship better necessarily? It might make Olli's life better, but I'm not sure if it would really solve their basic problem of Christian sometimes being an emotional klutz and Olli wanting some attentiveness? And is that lack of attentiveness really just in Olli's head? After we all have noted one time or another where we felt Christian could have been more attentive and more visibly loving.
Which brings us to the basic issues namely whether Olli's requests are unreasonable. I tend to think that his reaction might have been unreasonably (in the end they are both dramaqueens who NeverFreakOut), but the core issue?
It's actually funny because I'm MUCH more a Christian. I have clashed a lot with people over this issue. When somebody gives me roses I usually feel paranoid rather than flattered. I relate a lot to the way Christian expresses his emotions when he does it. And I tend to feel a bit weirded out when some people seem to act like the value/quality of their relationship depends on whether you get the romantic dinner or the surprise bouquet of flowers. So, technically this is not necesary something I understand that much. Now, I can see it both from the angle that if Olli wants that then they have to find some agreement and from the angle that Olli needs to appreciat the gestures Christian does show his love with (though I do think that he normally does that).
But yeah, even aside from the romantic wine and dine it has always bugged me much more that we have seen so few conversations that were about Olli. I have said before, I would love to have seen a convo where Christian shows some interest in Olli's past (ask about Olli's parents or Olli's past relationships or Olli's jobs or find out about Olli's crime phase) and/or Olli's inner workings. To me that had nothing to do with making Christian jumping through hoops. To me that is practicality. If you love somebody, if you are in a relationship you should want to get to know them better, know what influenced them and shaped them. Both for reasons of love and for purely practical reasons to make the relationship more workable.
Yes, it is possible that those kind of discussions took place offscreen, but: 1.) To me if they took place off screen we can never take for granted that they did take place and how 2.) I think it would be something absolutely interesting and watchable from a soap POV 3.) It signals to me that to the writers Christan showing and interest in Olli's past/innerlife/whatever is just not a priority to them. When on the reverse is seen all the time. To me that ends up making Christian come across like he is more than ok with him being the main/sole focus of the relationship normally.
If Christian did more those kind of things maybe then I would find it more believable that there might be other ways Olli feels emotional save and taken care of. Or I would be more inclined that Olli is just asking for frills and doesn't get Christian's way of being loving. (of course my theory is that if Christian showed more interest into Olli's inner workings then maybe what to do to be attentive would come more naturally both in knowing what to do and in genuinely wanting to do something nice for Olli)
Anyway, it goes back to asking whether Olli's demands are in general/essence unreasonable, if they would constitute trying to change your partner into something they never were and never will be (bad) or asking for some basic relationship respect (good).
Well, I'm hopeful regarding this because in the past it has never been their problem.
Wohoooo! I'm so glad you are back.
I actually read an article a while ago that had some statistical data on real life relationships up that suggested a similar thing, that it is good for the passion aspect and that couples who do a lot of fighting and making up might stay together longer or break up less easily (I guess the reverse would be a couple who always gets along, and then one day packs their bags, sort of gives up and parts as friends without resistance). So there might be some merit in this even without the "Soap = drama = screentime" aspect. There is also the factor that in real life fighting can make somebody more aware of their partner's moods and it can be good "practise". Otherwise it might happen that when you encounter your first bigger problem you suddenly don't know how to deal with it because you don't have previous fighting/making up/communicating in a stressful situation experience to fall back on.
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Post by sheepiefarm on Nov 9, 2008 14:11:41 GMT -5
That presumes that Olli had own feelings in regards to career and the like and suppressed them. Rather than genuinely not having any particular dreams at this point. Considering that Olli has been drifting for a long time why wouldn't it be the truth? But it was more the way he answered it rather than the content of what he said. He looked genuinely taken aback, almost guilty/embarrased, signifying (imo) that he wasn't comfortable talking at this level of personal intimacy with Christian. Maybe it wasn't the best example to quote, but it is the only example I could think of, where we have ever had Christian inquiring into the innermost thoughts / feelings / hopes / ambitions of Olli. I agree with you on this - Olli's job would not change what he needs from his relationship with Christian. The only instance I could think of where it would make a difference is if O&C were to work together - but only from the point of view that it would allow Olli more time to be with Christian and thus increase the possibility of chance that Christian might be inspired to make/show little loving gestures to Olli - bearing in mind that Olli places a high value on these kind of gestures. ;D - This of course is the question that will never be unanimously agreed upon. If your heart rules your head then you will be more inclined towards seeing Olli as being perfectly reasonable. If your head rules your heart you will probably be more inclined to think he is being unreasonable. There is no right or wrong answer to this - the key is finding the compromise if this is becoming a problem within your relationship. (imo) O&C are not yet at this stage within thier relationship because they haven't talked properly about who they are and what makes them tick. Olli has, by far, a better understanding of Chris than Chris has of Olli, but Olli is still very poor at communicating with Chris. How many time in the past has he done things behind Chris's back - always with the best of intentions, yes - but nearly always leading to an argument with Chris about his actions - yet he still continues to do it - the romantic dinner being the latest example. He has still failed to realise that Chris does not respond well to this type of action, primarily because his logistical, pragmatic way of thinking cannot cope with this - he is a literal thinker rather than a lateral thinker. Christian - on the other hand - is still a long way from really understanding the emotions of Olli, in fact (imo) as a storytelling couple, we have not even begun to explore this aspect of thier relationship. This is something I would dearly love to see the scriptwriters getting to grips with and think there is a huge mileage to work with. ;D - I'm a head over heart guy too - hence I always understand where Christian is coming from and have to really think about the issues to understand where Olli is coming from. Again, to reiterate - I'm not saying one is right and the other wrong - it's about taking the time to understand both sides, because only then can you begin to reach a compromise. I think the potential for storytelling here is huge - I really hope they go down this route.
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Post by lolaruns on Nov 9, 2008 17:50:13 GMT -5
See, I actually had the exactly opposite reaction/interpretation. That the taken aback thing meant that he had never really thought about it/that it had never occurred to him/that he genuinely doesn't have anything like that at this point.
Add to that that it has never come up again (for example in the form of sad looks), nor has Olli ever alluded or talked about anything even though their level of intimacy is much higher now.
It's not that it would necessarily have to be impossible that Olli might one day develop a dream but my impression from that scene was that he genuinely didn't have one at that point.
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kes
Full Member
Without community, there is no liberation. Audre Lorde
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Post by kes on Nov 9, 2008 19:19:18 GMT -5
That presumes that Olli had own feelings in regards to career and the like and suppressed them. Rather than genuinely not having any particular dreams at this point. Considering that Olli has been drifting for a long time why wouldn't it be the truth? I'm also a bit weirded out when people seem to suggest (not you, just in general/people on youtube) that all that is needed to fix the situation is for Olli to get a cooler job. Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because it always ends up sounding like the solution for the problem would be for Olli to stop wanting it (and maybe subliminate it into working) as opposed to them compromising. And the question is, would that really work? Most people don't stop craving romance just because they work in their dream job. With the kind of personality Olli has, I find it just as likely that he might start craving it even more after he comes home after a long exhausting day, even if the day was dream-satisfying. And who is to say that Christian would in that case be more likely to give it? Past evidence has shown that Christian was NOT better at being emotionally attentive to Nico and Coco who both had jobs and ambitions. What a great discussion. Your whole post is great, Lola; thanks to you too, Sheepiefarm; I hope you don't mind my responding to a point both of you made. I've been one of those who have posted that Ollie would perhaps be less hysterical if he had a career path. I think you are right: such a change would not solve all the problems. We have different romantic needs as people, and if two people are too far apart in this regard and cannot compromise, it causes great trouble, if not the need for a break-up. However, I do worry about Olli the way I might if he were my partner or friend or nephew: he’s 28 and living with younger people. He has no dreams and no path to inspire him outside his relationship to Christian. Not everyone needs a “cool job.” In fact, American society puts much too much emphasis on the career – particularly in NY. Really, being a loving person is much more important. Yet one still needs to feel that one is (as Joseph Campbell would call it) acting one’s “bliss.” One is doing the work one is meant to in the world. My sense is that Olli’s bliss to some degree is helping Christian. But as Sheepiefarm noted (hope I'm not misquoting you here, you said a lot of cool things), to some degree Olli expects something from this – there is an element of wanting something in return. And this kind of quid pro quo does not work in a relationship. One has to ask for what one needs, but to do and do and do to get one's needs met only leads to resentment, feelings of being over-crowded, and guilt in the other. I just see Olli as having a wound in the place where true self-esteem would be. He fills it with loving, but as I looked at his face as he stood in the window just after Christian left him alone to his candlelight dinner, I could see that he could fill that place with seething anger, too. The look scared me. (And it intrigued me – don’t stop Jo! Don’t stop VL writers! That tension was wonderful.) It made me realize that Olli’s shadow could resurface. Personally, I hope it does – but I also hope it is done in a way that does allows Olli to eventually transcend it, much as Olivia generally transcends her most evil impulses. Otherwise, Olli will become the stereotype of the evil-gay man. This gay-villain is one of the worst stereotypes I know. See the first Lion King for a reference – or Braveheart. But Jo is a good actor, and he could pull of the magic act of being cunning and manipulative without becoming a stereotype. I think the writers are up to the challenge, too. Anyway, I thought Friday’s episode was great. The argument between Olli and Christian in the bedroom was sharp and too too real. I did not think I would like this episode – in fact, I had sworn I wouldn’t watch it. However, I loved it. I will end with a complete non-sequiter: I love the fact that Olli is fighting for himself. He’s been too silent for too long. He might end up going “bad” on us for a while (in soap opera style), or he might just start communicating – but this is a good start. (Quick question: What do we know about Olli's childhood? Anything?)
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Post by sheepiefarm on Nov 9, 2008 19:22:59 GMT -5
See, I actually had the exactly opposite reaction/interpretation. That the taken aback thing meant that he had never really thought about it/that it had never occurred to him/that he genuinely doesn't have anything like that at this point. Although theoretically you could argue that he did - his ambition was to become Christian's lover. As someone whose heart rules his head - this is as legitimate an ambition as any other. Unfortunately I can't remember which clip this convo happened in cos I would quite like to go back & re-watch it. My gut feeling is that he didn't even give that as a reply but I would need to be certain of that before I made any more analysis.To go back to the heart to heart - talks that have happened between them - (imo) they have always been Olli led, with him usually listening or giving advice to Christian. We have yet to see a Christian led conversation, where Christian is doing the asking or listening. This is what leads me to the point of saying that I actually don't think they really know each other yet - (imo) Olli has not yet let Christian enter his world - yes, in matters of the heart, Olli has said I love you to Christian many times but I don't think it goes much beyond that. Of course this is partially due to the fact that Christian's nature means he does not necesarily pry into Olli's thoughts pre-Christian - Christian being a very private person himself.
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