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Post by lolaruns on Nov 4, 2008 15:23:58 GMT -5
They do? I have been mostly to European countries and that has never been the case in any of them Or at least it hasn't been that way outside of wartimes The way I see it, if you pay taxes, the government knows you anyway. If the government takes your taxes you should also have the right to decide who the government is. And they can send the voting info to wherever you pay your taxes. (as for registering, in Austria you techncally don't have to register when you move, but it means that you will have to vote whever you were previously registered, for example with your parents. Not registering is usually only an issue when the problem of tax evasion comes into it) I'm still shocked that not all countries vote on a Sunday. Speaking of odd election laws, in my country there is a pretty strict directive (don't know if it is enforced or just a general media agreement) that no tv station is allowed to report election count results till all ballots are closed (to avoid swaying voters in a particular direction). Do any other countries have the same directive?
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Nov 4, 2008 15:28:14 GMT -5
My American-ness is showing, I guess. Because I don't see it as a function of government, or a necessary byproduct, to keep track of us. Indeed, I'd be inclined to argue that it's something that the government should not be doing. To the extent that it needs to keep track of someone (such as for taxes) that tracking should be severely and singularly limited to that particular function. I definitely don't favor a national ID system, and do consider such an idea an potential erosion of necessary and inherent liberty. I'm not even sure I like the idea of state issued IDs, to tell the truth.
Or maybe I'm just weird.
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Post by GayTime on Nov 4, 2008 15:28:57 GMT -5
They do? I have been mostly to European countries and that has never been the case in any of them Or at least it hasn't been that way outside of wartimes The way I see it, if you pay taxes, the government knows you anyway. If the government takes your taxes you should also have the right to decide who the government is. And they can send the voting info to wherever you pay your taxes. (as for registering, in Austria you techncally don't have to register when you move, but it means that you will have to vote whever you were previously registered, for example with your parents. Not registering is usually only an issue when the problem of tax evasion comes into it) I'm still shocked that not all countries vote on a Sunday. Speaking of odd election laws, in my country there is a pretty strict directive (don't know if it is enforced or just a general media agreement) that no tv station is allowed to report election count results till all ballots are closed (to avoid swaying voters in a particular direction). Do any other countries have the same directive? Nobody takes it very serious, but technically you can be fined in Germany if you have no form of ID on you. And AFAIK the driver license is not enough, as they never expire and at least in my case the 17 year old staring back from that picture doesn't resemble me much any more. I guess it just doesn't happen out of the blue that someone official comes up to you without any reason and says: 'Your ID, please'. On voting, one of the most interesting curiosities I know about is Belgium, where every adult who is able to vote is LEGALLY REQUIRED to vote. Basically the only excuse is that you're moments away from dying or seriously, seriously sick.
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Post by Bonobochick on Nov 4, 2008 15:39:25 GMT -5
They do? I have been mostly to European countries and that has never been the case in any of them Or at least it hasn't been that way outside of wartimes The way I see it, if you pay taxes, the government knows you anyway. If the government takes your taxes you should also have the right to decide who the government is. And they can send the voting info to wherever you pay your taxes. (as for registering, in Austria you techncally don't have to register when you move, but it means that you will have to vote whever you were previously registered, for example with your parents. Not registering is usually only an issue when the problem of tax evasion comes into it) I'm still shocked that not all countries vote on a Sunday. Speaking of odd election laws, in my country there is a pretty strict directive (don't know if it is enforced or just a general media agreement) that no tv station is allowed to report election count results till all ballots are closed (to avoid swaying voters in a particular direction). Do any other countries have the same directive? Nobody takes it very serious, but technically you can be fined in Germany if you have no form of ID on you. And AFAIK the driver license is not enough, as they never expire and at least in my case the 17 year old staring back from that picture doesn't resemble me much any more. I guess it just doesn't happen out of the blue that someone official comes up to you without any reason and says: 'Your ID, please'. On voting, one of the most interesting curiosities I know about is Belgium, where every adult who is able to vote is LEGALLY REQUIRED to vote. Basically the only excuse is that you're moments away from dying or seriously, seriously sick. Hey! I have the photo of me at 19 on my driver's license. It expires next year but still... And I sadly look almost the same though with more hair now. I got to the polling place about 7:07am and left around an hour later. I got to work at 9:30am, but my managers knew I was voting in the morning so they were fine with it. Matter of fact, one of my managers went to vote at 9am and it took him 90 minutes and my other manager is leaving at 3pm to work one of the polling locations as well as be a transporter for people who are unable to get to their polling locations. Cool. ;D Also awesome? My mom told me this morning that she finally decided to vote No on Prop 8. I didn't think she would and I threatened to go all "Loving vs Virginia" on her but she decided on her own... eventually... that gay marriage issue aside (which she is against, sadly), Prop 8 is discrimination. I have some fruit, cheese and chips & dip ready for tonight's election viewing coverage (with the exception of the hour I will take out to watch the new episode of Privileged).
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Post by lolaruns on Nov 4, 2008 15:41:52 GMT -5
My American-ness is showing, I guess. Because I don't see it as a function of government, or a necessary byproduct, to keep track of us. Indeed, I'd be inclined to argue that it's something that the government should not be doing. To the extent that it needs to keep track of someone (such as for taxes) that tracking should be severely and singularly limited to that particular function. I definitely don't favor a national ID system, and do consider such an idea an potential erosion of necessary and inherent liberty. I'm not even sure I like the idea of state issued IDs, to tell the truth. Or maybe I'm just weird. But if you pay taxes then they are keeping track of you. After all they have to send the information somewhere. Otherwise how would you be able to pay the taxes respectively how would they know how much to tax you? I always found American distrust of government a bit strange. I don't feel controlled by government because I feel like I control them. I vote and thereby decides who gets the job. I might pay taxes, but I don't serve them, they serve me. The government and the politicians are my bitches because they have to vy for my vote. (naturally this is probably easier in a smaller country where you don't have so many vastly different interests to compete with)
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Post by aussie54 on Nov 4, 2008 15:44:10 GMT -5
RestE, I guess no system is perfect, and our population is miniscule compared to the US. Plus we only have six states (plus two territories), so it's a much simpler process. We have state elections as well as Federal elections, and they're run much in the same manner. I'm not sure if you'd have many more informal votes, if you followed our system. Our Ballot papers are very simple, there are people from all the parties handing out "How to Vote" cards, and there are ads on TV and in the papers showing how to fill out the papers. I suppose there are always people who could get confused, though. We also have preferrential voting rather than first past the post. But that's even a little confusing to me, so I won't go into that.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Nov 4, 2008 16:08:21 GMT -5
The IRS has my address now, but last year they probably didn't have my current address. Wisconsin's revenue department had no idea I owed them any taxes. The IRS and Minnesota almost certainly had my old address. It was my responsibility to file my taxes regardless of the federal or state governments knowing where I was. So I filled out the forms and mailed them. They don't need to tell me anything. Indeed, generally, the tax process requires that I tell the government things that they don't know. Certainly, they've been tracking my withholdings and reported payroll income, but that doesn't complete the tax picture, nor does it necessarily indicate where one lives or pays taxes.
I may not always trust the people in charge of the government. (I wouldn't trust George Bush as far as I could throw him.) But I do generally trust my government. I do think that such trust does also require some healthy skepticism of its use of power in order to keep it trustworthy, as we have seen plenty of instances in which that power is abused. I believe that law and government is instituted to help our life together in society possible and to thrive. But I also believe that means that coercive power of government should be limited. It should not exercise arbitrary power. (I would see needing to produce ID or tell the government where you are when they don't have need of it to be an example of arbitrary use of power.) Some level of distrust of government and it's power over people's lives is very deeply ingrained in American culture. It's at the very founding of our nation. From the point of view of the founders, at least, the American colonies were controlled by a government that was across the ocean in which they had no members in Parliament and had no right to elect members. The colonies had largely been founded for economic advantage (to reap riches from the North American continent, even if risky at first) and was still seen that way in some (many?) ways. That is, at least, a significant portion of the the founding myth of the United States. From that point of view, is some level of distrust of government in the United States really all that strange. Then, think of Richard Nixon's administration and shenanigans, McCarthyism and related cold-war internal spying and covert activity, and so forth, and it seems even less strange to me. And then, add into it things like the Tuskeegee Experiment, the Japanese Internment camps, Jim Crow laws, etc....
One reason I really want one particular candidate to win, is that I think he can maybe help Americans trust their government a bit more. Or, at least, there is a chance the he might help us find ways to trust it more.
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Post by amber80 on Nov 4, 2008 16:24:44 GMT -5
They do? I have been mostly to European countries and that has never been the case in any of them Or at least it hasn't been that way outside of wartimes I'm still shocked that not all countries vote on a Sunday. We need to carry legal ID (drivers license isn't enough here either ) here since 2005. Everyone from the age 14 and up should be able to show his or hers immediately when asked for . If you don't have it with you, you can get fined. (There was quite a lot resistence against this law, but it got there anyway in the end.) And we don't vote on a Sunday either. Always on weekdays. I always found American distrust of government a bit strange. I don't feel controlled by government because I feel like I control them. I vote and thereby decides who gets the job. I might pay taxes, but I don't serve them, they serve me. The government and the politicians are my bitches because they have to vy for my vote. (naturally this is probably easier in a smaller country where you don't have so many vastly different interests to compete with) I feel the same way... But like you said: in a smaller country it's probably just so much easier.
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Post by GayTime on Nov 4, 2008 16:28:01 GMT -5
**90 MINUTES UNTIL THE FIRST POLLS CLOSE...**
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Post by amber80 on Nov 4, 2008 16:53:07 GMT -5
I'm just wondering: how long can you vote? Over here the voting places are open from 7 am till 10 pm. (If I remember correctly ), so you can easily vote before or after work. How is it over there? Because I keep hearing reports about long queues... (I know you are voting for more than just a new president and that it just takes a bit more time to fill in everything, but still: 2 hours is really long. ) LOL! I'm watching a program on dutch television right now about the us elections and they made it really entertaining. (It's not all that serious I'm afraid. ;D)
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Post by GayTime on Nov 4, 2008 16:55:59 GMT -5
it's different in each state. in california the polls are supposed to close at 8 pm local time (that might drag out though, given the enormous lines). www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/poll.closing/ (all times on that map EASTERN)
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Post by amber80 on Nov 4, 2008 16:58:27 GMT -5
Ok, thanks. I was wondering about that.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Nov 4, 2008 17:02:52 GMT -5
I believe that in most states you can vote if you are in line when the polls close, but if you arrive after that time, no such luck.
Because of an issue two years ago at the precinct OH was working at as an election judge, a judge issued a court order to keep the precinct open another hour. It just made OH and the other election judges grumpy, because pretty much no one know and the only person who came in was someone who thought he was too late but just wanted to check to be sure.
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Post by sheepiefarm on Nov 4, 2008 17:31:21 GMT -5
Will America elect it's first ever Black president?
Will McCain become the oldest man ever to be elected for a first term?
Will America elect it's first ever female vice-president in Sarah Palin?
Will Obama secure more than 50% of the popular vote?
OMG - I can feel the geek awakening in me - the next 3 hours are gonna be mind-numbingly long.......
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Post by Difficult Diva on Nov 4, 2008 17:46:40 GMT -5
Tell me about it?! I got about 4 hours of sleep last night, because I was tossing and turning in anticipation of voting this morning. I'm going to be exhausted all day tomorrow.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Nov 4, 2008 17:46:54 GMT -5
Go ahead, Sheepie! Geek out! I don't mind. I like geek.
;D
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Post by sheepiefarm on Nov 4, 2008 18:53:38 GMT -5
I'm quoting the BBC here
voting problems reported in Virginia - ballot machines not working, ballot papers not correct - in Richmond & Norfolk.
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Post by skilian on Nov 4, 2008 18:57:30 GMT -5
voting problems reported in Virginia - ballot machines not working, ballot papers not correct - in Richmond & Norfolk. Eh, that happens alot in Massachusetts. Apparently one of the Machines in Boston just stopped working. Period.
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Post by sheepiefarm on Nov 4, 2008 19:02:02 GMT -5
Kentucky - McCain - 8
Vermont - Obama - 3
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j9l45
Junior Member
Posts: 622
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Post by j9l45 on Nov 4, 2008 19:34:50 GMT -5
My American-ness is showing, I guess. Because I don't see it as a function of government, or a necessary byproduct, to keep track of us. Indeed, I'd be inclined to argue that it's something that the government should not be doing. To the extent that it needs to keep track of someone (such as for taxes) that tracking should be severely and singularly limited to that particular function. I definitely don't favor a national ID system, and do consider such an idea an potential erosion of necessary and inherent liberty. I'm not even sure I like the idea of state issued IDs, to tell the truth. Or maybe I'm just weird. I feel the same way. . From that point of view, is some level of distrust of government in the United States really all that strange. Then, think of Richard Nixon's administration and shenanigans, McCarthyism and related cold-war internal spying and covert activity, and so forth, and it seems even less strange to me. And then, add into it things like the Tuskeegee Experiment, the Japanese Internment camps, Jim Crow laws, etc.... not to mention warrant-less wire-tapping of its own citizens... Tell me about it?! I got about 4 hours of sleep last night, because I was tossing and turning in anticipation of voting this morning. I'm going to be exhausted all day tomorrow. me too ;D Personally, I'm a big supporter of early voting. I think it gives the greatest # of people the opportunity to vote. Unfortunately, not all states do that. (side note: 2 reasons to love Texas: 1. early voting 2. no state income tax) In Texas, the early voting started on Oct. 20 (I think). I voted last Thursday, at a grocery store. Another reason I love early voting is that you don't have to go to your specific polling place. I only had to wait in line about 10 minutes, though I heard of a small town near here with a 2 hour wait. I only had to bring my driver's license and they did a computer scanny thing and gave me an access # that I was able to type into the machine. The machines used here are pretty easy (I think), but they had a person explaining how to use them after you were processed, but before you went in the booth, and another person with a mobile bit showing you the different buttons and dial that they could explain to you while you were waiting in line. There is a digital screen and a dial that you can spin around (either direction, if you go too far it just circles back around) that you use to scroll to the selection that you want. Then, when the selection you want is highlighted you press a separate button, so you don't push it accidentally while you are scrolling. Then when you are done, it shows you all the choices you made and you have the option of going back to correct them. If they are all ok, you press a different bright red button that says 'cast ballot' on it. Then a little American flag waves across the screen and you are done. Pretty easy, had instructions on screen before you began, and printed out on the actual booth next to the screen if you needed a reference. Basically, they were doing everything humanly possible to make sure you understood the screens. My only complaint was that I felt the sides of the machines didn't extend quite far enough to give an adequate sense of privacy. And they had run out of stickers that day. *pouts* Anyway, I've been bouncing off the walls for hours.
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Post by sheepiefarm on Nov 4, 2008 19:39:31 GMT -5
Anyway, I've been bouncing off the walls for hours. boing, boing, boing, boing..........32% have voted early 130million expected to vote today They're taking ages to call some of these states CBS & Fox have called W. Virginia as McCain but ABC & BBC not called it yet
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j9l45
Junior Member
Posts: 622
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Post by j9l45 on Nov 4, 2008 19:44:47 GMT -5
They've gotten scared after calling them too early in previous elections and then having to back track.
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Post by sheepiefarm on Nov 4, 2008 19:48:39 GMT -5
They've gotten scared after calling them too early in previous elections and then having to back track. I know - which means the tv presenters are having to waffle & waffle & waffle & waffle & waffle
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j9l45
Junior Member
Posts: 622
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Post by j9l45 on Nov 4, 2008 19:53:01 GMT -5
They've gotten scared after calling them too early in previous elections and then having to back track. I know - which means the tv presenters are having to waffle & waffle & waffle & waffle & waffle Well, that is what they do best. ;D
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Post by sheepiefarm on Nov 4, 2008 19:54:08 GMT -5
S. Carolina - McCain - 8
McCain 16 Obama 3
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