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Post by lolaruns on May 6, 2008 15:48:58 GMT -5
I don't know if I've missed something, maybe I'm too new, but reading through the spoilers but doesn't Christian come out around June? So only a month to go.. Hi BTW :-) Hi, welcome He comes out to Gregor (albeit unplanned). Now it's about coming out "at work" with the other boxers. Sigh. I still hope that the next set of pictures will come on Thursday that Christian gets outed there too the next week and we don't have to deal with this annoying storyline anymore. Grrr. I don't really feel that Christian has an obligation to tell everybody "at work" that he lives with a guy, but actively lying/being deceptive is a different question. Not to mention it irks me that the show might play it as it being a romantic thing that Olli supports Christian staying in the closet, when it's more the opposite of romantic and just plain dumb. I mean, sure, it was cute and supportive when Olli supported Christian through his fears, but beyond that? Why would they lie? Just for ambition/success/money? Hardly a very romantic cause. Yeah, I reserve my judgement till we see more of the boxing people. I actually thought AWZ did some fairly realistic treatment about the casual homophobia in sports, particularly in a team sport. That said, boxing isn't a team sport, so Christian technically mostly relies on himself. Besides, wouldn't the kind of homophobic ribbing be more the kind of thing that would just piss Christian off and make him more determined to fight against it? I'm all for tragedy. I mean sure, happy Ollian is cute, but I love me some tragedy. Gives the actors something to do too. I mostly just really want a *meaty* dramatic storyline for Ollian and not something dumb.
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beof
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Post by beof on May 6, 2008 15:56:24 GMT -5
I'm all for tragedy. I mean sure, happy Ollian is cute, but I love me some tragedy. Gives the actors something to do too. I mostly just really want a *meaty* dramatic storyline for Ollian and not something dumb. What I think would really be nice is a story that challenged them as a couple, but not their status as a couple - if that makes sense. So not a situation where one cheats on the other, it's just done to death, but something that affects them both, and they have to deal with it, whatever it is, together. There's a habit on soaps to have all the drama be relationship based, ultimately breaking up the relationship completely, and good drama can be different. I guess I'd like to see a stable gay couple having drama for once, rather than the drama being the couple itself - if that makes sense.
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Post by lolaruns on May 6, 2008 16:05:06 GMT -5
Well they did that before. They were called Tom and Olli and they aired in 2001. And they weren't that popular. (though, they did do cheating. but at least the third person in their triangle was another guy)
Personally, I'm not a fan of "clinical" storylines. I have watched soaps for a long time and there is nothing more boring than teflon characters/couples. Soap operas live on flaws. Characters just only face adversity and overcome it easily are just boring. It's not interesting to watch if there isn't some grit. Fans of a couple always want clinically happy storyline, but I can assure you they just make everybody else loathe the storyline.
That said, there are still plenty of story options that I can see with Ollian that wouldn't be Christian falling for Judith or even just Christian and Judith having to pretend they are a couple. Starting with just Christian being outed and having to deal with the fallout in his job. Could be things like Christian's criminal record becoming relevant again. Could be Christian and Olli having a major fallout over a non-romantic person. For example over something Olivia does and Oliver protects her and takes her side. They could have somebody from Olli's time on the cruiseship stop by. They could do a really gritty injury storyline. They could even do a "good" triangle where Ollian are the ones that really want each other even when there are people between them.
There is a whole bunch of typically soapy stories that won't drive me up the wall.
That said, I don't think you can compare VL to American soaps like ATWT. VL has a much faster turnover in characters. Couples/relationships rarely last longer than two years and in a lot of cases it ends with either the couple being written off together, one character leaving or one character dying in the arms of their lover. So because of that they have much more final supercouples, because they have a run of two years or so and then the story ends. Rather than writers having to come up with break up and make up storylines for the same couple for 20 years.
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Post by tihkon2 on May 6, 2008 16:22:31 GMT -5
I have to say that I can totally understand the boxing/closet storyline. I think that would actually be an awful sport to be a known gay man in. I don't think the drama will just be, "Oh he sleeps with men, he's a wimp" I think it could also be the "OH! If I punch him he might bleed on me and give me AIDS" thing too. Even though we know that's not the case, many ignorant people still think like that. So I, for one, can totally see Olli and Christian not wanting it to come out that C is sleeping with Olli.
On another note, jeebus cripes, you guys are paranoid! I'll bet you a bunch of curly-wurst that there is no intention of making Chris and Judith a couple. ;D
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Post by lolaruns on May 6, 2008 16:27:12 GMT -5
Darn I hope so. I just don't want Ollian to end up as the next Christian&Coco Even more reason why I'm dying for Christian to come out That said, I don't think that they can just assume for people to be aware of that. They have to communicate within the show that this is what would expect Christian if he came out and why that would be bad enough for it to be prudent for him to not come out.
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Post by Bonobochick on May 6, 2008 16:30:37 GMT -5
The Sam the Eagle stuff is killing me. I know I shouldn't laugh but it fits so well.
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maya
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Post by maya on May 6, 2008 16:35:10 GMT -5
I have to say that I can totally understand the boxing/closet storyline. I think that would actually be an awful sport to be a known gay man in. I don't think the drama will just be, "Oh he sleeps with men, he's a wimp" I think it could also be the "OH! If I punch him he might bleed on me and give me AIDS" thing too. Even though we know that's not the case, many ignorant people still think like that. So I, for one, can totally see Olli and Christian not wanting it to come out that C is sleeping with Olli. On another note, jeebus cripes, you guys are paranoid! I'll bet you bunch of curly-wurst that there is no intention of making Chris and Judith a couple. ;D Very well said!! I completely agree. I really don't understand all this negativity
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Post by Bonobochick on May 6, 2008 16:38:13 GMT -5
Very well said!! I completely agree. I really don't understand all this negativity It sometimes happens, people fear the worst quickly, especially when they've seen something that could turn out to be similar on another show & they recall the bitterness felt seeing it happen the first time. Still, let's try to lighten things up. ;D Pessimism is good at checking fantastical thoughts but let's not plan a funeral for Ollian just yet?
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Post by tihkon2 on May 6, 2008 16:38:43 GMT -5
Maya, I think some people here were burnt by other soaps before and have a fear of it happening again. and re: the storyline. It's a matter of opinion I guess, and we aren't all going to agree. So you and I can be the Happy Optimists! ;D ETA: Or , you know, what bonobochick said.
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Post by lolaruns on May 6, 2008 16:41:15 GMT -5
Yes. At the very least, lets not ruin the upcoming blissfull times/happy Ollian episodes that we have spoilers for ;D
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Post by atticlibrarian on May 6, 2008 16:42:56 GMT -5
Pessimism is good at checking fantastical thoughts but let's not plan a funeral for Ollian just yet? Seriously. They've been together like a month and we're already speculating on what's going to tear them apart. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the pretty.
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Post by tihkon2 on May 6, 2008 16:43:37 GMT -5
Thanks Lola! A nice reminder that these episodes that these pictures are from haven't even aired yet. Some very nice things to look forward to!
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Post by psionycx on May 6, 2008 20:10:55 GMT -5
I'm all for tragedy. I mean sure, happy Ollian is cute, but I love me some tragedy. Gives the actors something to do too. I mostly just really want a *meaty* dramatic storyline for Ollian and not something dumb. What I think would really be nice is a story that challenged them as a couple, but not their status as a couple - if that makes sense. So not a situation where one cheats on the other, it's just done to death, but something that affects them both, and they have to deal with it, whatever it is, together. There's a habit on soaps to have all the drama be relationship based, ultimately breaking up the relationship completely, and good drama can be different. Actually, these days it almost seems like the soap opera "supercouple" is a virtually extinct concept because writers seem determined to throw couples together, keep them together for a few months and loudly hype their love, only to break them up shortly thereafter. In many ways I think that's very unsatisfying because often it's the couple and their romance that (I personally) relate to, rather than just the individual characters. Taking characters and bouncing them from relationship to relationship really just makes the whole thing seem stale and lame. I mean, how great of a couple can such pairs be if they split up so frequently?
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keie
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Post by keie on May 6, 2008 21:31:52 GMT -5
Okay while I don't especially like the storyline of Judith being Chris's beard....how much do I love Olli for understanding that this is important to Christian's carrer.
I wonder how many people in this day and age, as far as the dreams and carrer that they pick have to go through this same thing?!
Of course I want Christian to be able to be honest but at the same time understand the position he's been put in. It's real!
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Post by lolaruns on May 6, 2008 23:13:54 GMT -5
I don't know. To me the concept of "split" is relative. To me the most memorable and considered romantic storylines frequently were about the couple being split up. What makes it supercouple-ish is that the couple can be split up but the show still communicates that they are the supercouple (and the best way that can be done through writing that doesn't betray the characters). What are some of the most classic storylines? Sonny pushes Brenda away to protect her from his mob job. He gets married to his good mob wife Lily. Sonny and Brenda skulk around in secret because they are still crazy for each other. It culimates in a classic scene where Brenda offers to be his mistress but Sonny rejects her because he loves her too much to want to cost her her dignity. Sonny vows to commit himself to being a good husband to Lily just as Lily dies in a carbomb. Or the big Jax/Brenda/Lily triangle which was good precisely because you bought her attraction to both guys. Or the over the top soapy but still classic Roman/Marlena/John triangle. Marlena is married to Roman, but he dies/disappeared. She later meets this mysterious hot stranger and they have adventures together. He has memory loss and they realize that he is actually Roman after plastic surgery and they get together. Then it turns out that he isn't and the real Roman comes back and Marlena goes to be with him, but John and Marlena are still dying to be together, which culimates into an adulterous boink which results in a baby (of course) which results in more heartbreaking drama. Sure there are some other couples that get drama more from themselves. Like Luke and Laura who had to overcome the fact that he raped her. Still, all the more reason why it was all the more moving and classic when they divorced after years of marriage because their teenaged son found out about how his parents got together. The key is making a good build up/getting together/falling in love story, one that justifies the drama story that follows. The build up need to be good enough and the chemistry has to be good enough for people to believe that these characters would go through the challenging part for each other (that is why I would always get so frustrated when people complained that Ollian didn't move quickly enough in the getting together phase; in my eyes slow build up is a good thing, precisely because so many soaps don't bother with it anymore and instead create those instantly together, instantly apart fast food couples rather than crafting real stories). Make the challenging part too hard and people wonder why these people would even bother when it's so much pain. Makes it to easy and the whole thing seems fake and boring. If you do a triangle you need to make both sides just believable enough for people to wonder (for example stability vs. passion; old love vs. new love) but enough for them to not despair and still get the feeling that their couple is the chosen one and the characters still have these powerful feelings for each other. IMO, it's a real art form. And 99% of it is about writing stories that are emotionally true to the characters and their flaws. Don't get me wrong. Not every soap couple has to be a supercouple. There are plenty of nice "also ran" couples. And there is nothing wrong with being one of those couples. But in a soap context being a supercouple is higher prestige in my eyes than being a stable couple. Which is why I'm so frustrated with the Nuke storylines since they got together a lot of the time. Because a lot of their issues feel a bit like "token" obstacles, things that annoy and complicate but that weren't really used to get at the heart of the characters and turn it into really classic soap writing. And to me, a storyline that is built on the characters acting like morons is an instant fail, regardless of how clearly drawn the good/evil sides are. How can I get emotionally involved in it if the obstacle is just stupid? It's hard to care when Ameera is just a convoluted out of the blue character and I keep thinking that none of them would be having any troubles if Nuke just hadn't put themselves there. The easy and totally feasible solution would just have been to not care that much about Ameera. If Ollian start fighting because Olli wants Christian to stay in the closet, how much sympathy can I have for them if I think what they are doing is really stupid? There is nothing wrong with doing a triangle or even do a boy/boy/girl triangle, but the DeRo storyline suffers from the fact that the going from Vanessa to Roman thing was poorly explained. The best storylines are the ones where we can truly buy into the characters reasons. Where we can see and understand why they act that way. Where we bite our nails and hope for something to happen on the show that will allow things to be different for them. That is when one is truly hooked on a storyline. Again, no reason why every soap couple has to be a supercouple. Maybe Ollian would do much better being the quirky, funny, cute couple (though I have to admit, that it often feels a bit of a waste to me when actors don't get to strut their stuff in dramatic scenes; particularly if you suspect that they would be good at it). Still, these are the reasons for why I'm annoyed when a story seems like it might be unbalanced or poorly motivated. Relationship drama and even breakups are not an insult to a soap couple. Just badly written break ups and relationship drama that don't go for the dramatic jugular and really showcase a couple. In short, I'm gonna keep rooting for Ollian to have a really cool, soapy storyline.
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Post by Bonobochick on May 6, 2008 23:22:04 GMT -5
Ok everyone, we need to remember this is the Spoiler Discussion thread. It keeps going off with tangent posts that more belong in the General Discussion thread than here. There are some good posts that are very interesting but I also recognize as needing to be moved to the GD thread. Please make sure that when you post in this thread, the focus is solely to discuss spoilers and no tangents, otherwise posts not discussing spoilers need to go on to the GD thread. Seriously. This has been happening for a while now and we need to get back on track with the purpose of this spoiler discussion thread. Thanks everyone!
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Post by meanwhile on May 6, 2008 23:52:20 GMT -5
returning to the pugilistic ramble...boxing is such a homoerotic sport. think about it, two half-naked men sweating and leaning all over each other? what could be more gay?--except for maybe all the butt-slapping in american football-- which is why football has cheerleaders and boxing has those girls in bikinis holding up the round number- to reassure straight men that their voyeuristic enjoyment does not signify homo tendencies. at least in the states these sports are supremely homophobic- to be openly gay is career suicide. even to be a lesbian boxer (and hello, what female boxer is not gay?) blacklists you- you can't get a fight and you get zero public support. in the US i think there has only been one out female professional boxer and a google search turned up only one or two pro male boxers.
i love that christian wants to be open about his relationship with olli, but i think that olli is more realistic about what christian will have to do if he wants to go pro. sigh... i hate careers that necessitate being closeted...and i especially hate that there are still so many of them...
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bugchicklv
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Post by bugchicklv on May 7, 2008 0:24:08 GMT -5
OOH! You had me till that (but you got me back again with what followed). I will NEVER accept that example as the love of a lifetime. I don't care how it was worked up, dramatized, romanticized and wubbified, I lost a huge amount of respect for quite a few people (parents, writers, actors, advertisers, viewers) once I realized what had happened. I didn't get to watch soaps because most of them were on while I was in school, but my mom stuck with the ones on that channel (Ryan's Hope, All My Children, One Life To Live, General Hospital) and she'd let me watch the rest of OLTL and all of GH with her once I got home. It was our "together thing." No, probably not appropriate for an early pre-teen, but I didn't know any better, she didn't see the harm, and it was something we could do regularly, and we did...until the day it hit me that what had transpired was a horrible travesty to women (and men) everywhere.
To have a character RAPE another, and then have her "fall in love with him" anyway? What to the F*ck power? Oh. Hell. No.
Sure, it took me 2-3 yrs to catch on but when I did I scolded my mom for 1) letting me watch it in the first place 2) continuing to watch it after such an offense and after firing off a particularly nasty letter to the writers I haven't bothered with the show since then.
But, back to your point: Yes, in soaps the conflict usually is about the relationships and breaking them up can make their story more exciting and possibly create a stronger bond later on (if TPTB choose to re-unite them). I just...well, if they are going to break them up (and I tend to be an optimist for this pairing, so I hope they don't) then I certainly hope it's not some lame attempt to hook Christian up with a girl. That being said, bringing back (or introducing) a MALE someone from Olli's past (or the ship) to cause friction between the boys MIGHT be interesting, depending on how it is handled. Bad example: Some girl deciding she wants Christian no matter what, hunting down Olli's long-lost-whatever, and hiring/enticing him to come back just to try to break the boys up so she can have her way. Good Example: Mysterious "he" shows up spontaneously, decides to stick around, realizes he HAS to win Olli over/back, wheedles his way into the couple's life, Olli gets all conflicted, Christian kick new-guy ass, Olli realizes Christian is his One True Love. Or whatever. Maybe not so sappy. You know, I'd even watch if Christian cheated on Olli with a girl (and all the angst THAT could bring into their relationship), so long as it isn't OMG TWU WUV MADE HIM DO IT, and Christian/Girl become new supercouple. .Just, argh...don't make Christian's character as only playing at gay. Make it about his insecurities, trying to fit in to the boxing world (or whatever), them having a fight and wanting to do the one thing that would hurt Olli most....give it a MEANING, not just a reason. *sigh* I'm rambling. Sorry. (This probably should have gone in the discussion thread, too. Sorry for that as well!)
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Post by lolaruns on May 7, 2008 0:40:15 GMT -5
See, to me Luke and Laura worked only because of how it was written and how it was true to the characters as much as it could be. Because Luke went through a lot of guilt and paying for it and how ultimately it all came back to bite him in the butt and they eventually did break up because of it. The devil lies in the details. I agree, I would love for a guy from Olli's past to come back (please let it be hot massaging Russian Ex-cop). Or if Olli's history with Tom was used. I do agree with Jo Weil, I don't think that there would be any point to actually bringing Tom back, because I don't see how that would greatly affect Olli at this point. But they could still address that Tom was Olli's first longer relationship, that he cheated on Olli and that it eventually ended because Olli felt fenced in. Could be a good way of compare and contrast, Olli's old relationship and his new relationship and why this one works so much better for him. I'm actually half disappointed that Christian is that good at coming around to accepting his gay self. If there was more angst on his part that could have been explored in a storyline. Maybe some guy hitting on Olli and indicating that Christian is just gonna leave him eventually and that he should stick with a "real" gay guy and Christian has to prove himself to that competition. But it looks like it isn't going into any of those directions for now, so I guess we have to deal with it. I'm just bugged because I think there is plenty of fun things the writers could still explore, I can be kinda miffed when they don't. (for starters, we know that Christian can be kinda judgemental with people [see: Olivia; see:Gregor], so one wonders how he would really feel about Olli's potentially wild past if they ever had that conversation) Instead we get like three of four different cases of "Christian wants to come out and Olli stops him". That said, I do hope that they play the whole "ZOMG! Christian has to deny Olli in public" for all the angst/drama/guilt that it's worth [as for staying on topic, it's hard especially when you are ranting on something that is directly based on spoilers and you couldn't post it in the general discussion without spoiler bars or at least greatly confusing people as to what the heck prompted that]
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Post by Bonobochick on May 7, 2008 0:53:34 GMT -5
[as for staying on topic, it's hard especially when you are ranting on something that is directly based on spoilers and you couldn't post it in the general discussion without spoiler bars or at least greatly confusing people as to what the heck prompted that] I understand that but it starts to get to a point where it takes over the thread and comments that initially were directly related to a spoiler but are not really spoiler talk anymore become front and center. Try to keep the focus on the spoilers solely and if the need to rant comes out, keep in mostly on point with the spoilers. If it becomes heavily loquacious or off-track or becomes an in-depth discussion bringing in a bunch of other things not related directly to the spoilers, then it needs to go in the general discussion thread. And though I am responding to your post cause you mentioned it, my comments are not specifically directed at you but to all posters in this thread. Thanks
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bugchicklv
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Post by bugchicklv on May 7, 2008 6:40:13 GMT -5
Oh Noes! They cut Sebastian's Emo Hair Of Doom! I think I am going to cry. Seriously, I have a thing for REALLY great hair (like his, or Albert's in the UK version of Make Me a Supermodel).
Also, I wonder if TPTB will throw us a bone (*snerk*) and give the Ollian fans a bath scene like that? *sigh* One can only hope.
Ooh! I'll add that to the wishlist...
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Post by lolaruns on May 7, 2008 6:50:37 GMT -5
Somehow I have a hard time picturing Christian in a bubble bath. But did they did give a bath scene to the lesbian couple once.
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Post by Bonobochick on May 7, 2008 8:16:37 GMT -5
Sebastian's hair may be shorter but he'll probably still portray the role of "sulky child".
Argh, Judith, you fool. CONSTANTIN, not Fabian!
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Post by amber80 on May 7, 2008 9:01:03 GMT -5
Oi, I didn't even regonized Sebastian! I won't judge till I've seen it in a dry state... And YES Judith, listen to Bonobochick!! Not Fabian, but Constantin!!
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Post by lolaruns on May 7, 2008 9:06:59 GMT -5
Constantin's story. Constantin's evil father Adrian needs money so he has Carla and Lars' child abducted and wants money. There are a lot of botched attempts to hand over the money. During the big showdown Sebastian saves the baby and Adrian is shot. He needs an organ donor and Constantin is a match, but Constantin doesn't want to do it because he suspects that Adrian was behind the kidnapping. On 20.6 he opens up about his dilemma to Judith. Next episode he says he is only gonna do it if Adrian signs a confession. Sebastian and his new sister spend a lot of time begging Constantin to help Adrian. Adrian finally caves to SebastianConstantin's demands on the 27th. BTW, that is the Ollian bathroom, right?
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