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Post by summerinthecity on Jun 24, 2008 17:12:06 GMT -5
Hi everybody! javascript:add("%20:D") Cheesy Apart from all these very interesting psychological aspects of the whole"finding an alibi girlfriend for Christian" business which have been discussed so far I can't help thinking it was a very smart move when you see it from a storytelling point of view. Apparently the writers don't want Christian to be out and open in the boxing world right now. Presumably it will happen sometime in the future (otherwise in my opinion this whole build-up wouldn't make any sense) but right now they had to give them a break. Just repeating all over again that Christian's private life was none of Axel' s business just wouldn't have done the trick. So they needed someone to come up with something - Judith kissing Christian out of impulse without someone putting the idea in her head beforehand - now that would have been really scary. If this beard? thing had been Christian's idea he might have looked a bit selfish and cowardish plus lots of other things which could have been deducted from this. With Oli it's completely different - you can easily believe that he wouldn't think of lying about his love to Christian if it weren't for Christian's sake. He is definitely not afraid of Axel - (and just as if to destroy any last tiny doubts somebody (definitely not me !) might have had, we get this cute scene in No Limits when he has a go at Axel. Now of course Oli should have discussed the whole plan with Christian before but again - seen from a point of storytelling - there would have been much less drama if they had done so;-). Definitely no kiss - some handholding at the most! Or Christian would have said "no" altogether(most realistic option) , and that would have been the end of it - no way Oli or Judith could/would have done anything against the explicit will of Christian. Plus: each episode with all its other storys lasts maybe 25 minutes, not so much time there for endless discussions. And who knows - maybe the writers do actually plan to delve into the depths of Oli's "meddling" and Christian's reactions to it further so right now they are sort of collecting material for oncoming discussions. P.S. I've tried to add smileys - but don't think I succeeded so it will prabably look a bit weird - I'll keep trying javascript:add("%20;)") Wink
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Post by calaeb on Jun 24, 2008 17:17:07 GMT -5
By the 'purist' standard being advocated by some here, anyone who ever acts--rather than only reacts--or justifies his action should be deemed 'manipulative'. But doesn't this rather void the word of any useful application? For me the case rests primarily on two things: intention and results. Regarding the former, I think no one has seriously questioned the altruistic nature of Olli's motives. Regarding results: it seems to be the writers' premise--and the consensus among the characters--that Christian's career is nipped in the bud if he's outed / outs himself before he shows he's got what it takes. So Olli's intervention has simply kept Christian's 'dream' on track, when C himself--whether high-mindedly or simply combatively--would have derailed it. Therefore--in my view and so far--Olli seems entirely vindicated. For Christian, he's the ideal mate--which Christian recognizes once each crisis is past, and which he has impassionedly acknowledged (the 'sirtaki' soliloquy). I agree. It would be unhealthy in my mind if either Olli or Christian were using this situation to gain power or control over the other in the relationship. And I don't see these as the character motivations. I see naivety, for sure, but not manipulation.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 25, 2008 12:46:25 GMT -5
I am unlocking this thread for now but if anything happens in here from this point on like what happened yesterday, I will lock it back up and people will get official warnings. If people cannot control themselves, then the next time there will be official warnings for folks who are instigating/exacerbating any mess that pops up on this forum. Racking up more than a few official warnings will lead to you being banned from the forum.People need to watch that things do not become personal nor that opinions start becoming facts. If you find you can't do either one of these when posting because you're that riled up, step away from the keyboard and go for a walk or do something to calm yourself because what broke out here yesterday was ridiculous and judging from the complaints that filled the mods' respective inboxes, irritated a lot of folks on the forum. Take this time to re-read the board's policies and rules. Before yesterday, things had been respectful between posters even in disagreement. It needs to stay that way. Seriously. If you have any questions or whatnot, PM me. Thank you for understanding.
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Post by psionycx on Jun 25, 2008 13:01:49 GMT -5
I agree. It would be unhealthy in my mind if either Olli or Christian were using this situation to gain power or control over the other in the relationship. And I don't see these as the character motivations. I see naivety, for sure, but not manipulation. I think you're correct on this calaeb. Neither of them is abusing this situation or being thoughtless of each other, at least in a fashion comparable to say Noah on ATWT or Deniz on AWZ. If anything it's the opposite. Christian is openly unhappy with the situation and only playing along grudgingly at best. Olli is only pushing it because he wants Christian to succeed in boxing and doesn't want to be the reason he doesn't. The main imbalance is that Christian feels increasingly guilty and stressed, which may cause problems further down the line. And Olli finds himself taking unpleasant actions in Christian's best interest. But this is a soap and there can be no story development without tensions. The initial buildup to Christian coming out and getting together with Olli is past, so now they need new challenges to overcome and so now we're dealing with the problem of Axel and the Neanderthals and having to use Judith as a beard. And it's actually good because it draws in the other characters. Olli is conspiring with Gregor (which is cute), Christian is thrust together with Judith and Fabian is annoyed as all heck.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 25, 2008 13:19:22 GMT -5
My take on this is that makes the beard issue more complicated is this:
It's hard to judge soap opera actions sometimes because sometimes soap reality is just different from real life reality.
An example. In the current storyline Constantin's evil father got shot. He needs a kidney transplant. Everybody and their dog tells Constantin that Constantin needs to donate one of his kidney or else his evil father will die. OMG. Either Constantin donates his kidney or else his father will die. Dundundun. Dramatic choice.
In a real life context we would deduce that this is a stupid choice because Constantin would have the third option of saying "Dear dad, go fuck yourself and just have a machine clean your blood for the rest of your life". Still mean, but not as bad as actually letting him die.
Yet for whatever reason this option doesn't exist in soap universe. Sure we could deduce that maybe it is an elaborate scheme of Leonard, Sebastian, Rebecca, the entire hospital and the entire medical community of VL world not to tell Constantin that this option exists. Since there is no evidence for it, the solution is that this option for whatever reason just doesn't exist in VL world.
It's similar with boxing. Regardless of whether we think whether it is realistic that Christian NEEDS a beard, for whatever reason the characters seem to think so. Gregor proves that this is not just Olli's singular oppressive psychosis. Regardless of whether it ends up being true once Christian outs himself Olli seems to think so, Gregor seems to think so and I guess one could even claim that Axel and Wolle can be used as supporting witnesses.
To me the whole dynamic of O&C is that Christian makes a rash decision, Christian thinks of it, and then Christian changes his mind. Here are some examples: - Being mad at Olli - Being mad at Coco - Thinking Coco was evil for sending him letters in prison - Not wanting to out himself to Gregor (first attempt, mind changed after interacting with Gregor and Judith at No Limits) - Taking steroids - Wanting a beard (mind changed after interacting with Judith and Axel)
The problem is that these mind changes are more natural to us when we see Christian as being obviously wrong and being his change of mind as obviously right.
The thing is that with the beard many of us don't particularly agree with it being a good idea and aren't sure if Christian's initial instincts weren't maybe right. And while we can't really use the real life reality as an absolute measurement of what would be true in soap reality, do we really trust this one set of characters that they are right? After all only the attitudes after Christian's outing will prove what the reality of VL world in this regard really is. (though it should be noted that neither Fabian nor Judith seem to seriously question whether a beard is necessary or whether it is an amoral idea; they mostly don't seem to be the discomfort it would cause them personally; so that is the question. Is this a kidney case? Where even though our real life gut logic tells us that there is something wrong going on but we kinda sorta have to accept the laws of VL world and have to believe the characters who say it is so (cue to my long rants about tell vs. show and how the storyline would be more effective if we had seen more realistic boxing homophobia at work rather than having a few cardboards and taking Olli and Gregor's word for it). Or are Olli and Gregor wrong or mistaken when they portray it (like the kidney question) as an all or nothing case where Christian only has this chance and outing himself would really cost him this chance and not taking this chance would make him unhappy.
Bottom Line: Olli is treating this situation like he is screaming "Don't jump off that cliff you will die immediately". If we apply earth logic we can see plainly that the "cliff" is actually made out of paper and only half a foot high and that there is no way that Christian would die if he fell down there and might think that Olli is sounding screechy and irrational. Christian is currently eyeing this cliff and wondering whether he could jump and make it.
The core questions are: 1.) Do we accept a slightly tweaked soap reality where the half foot cliff really is a huge dangerous obstacle? (again, kidney example) 2.) Do we take Olli's word for it (and Gregor's too) or do we wonder together with Christian whether it is doable
It's much more easy to side with Olli if he is arguing in favor of things that are obviously right (like "don't take steroids, they are bad for your health, and if you love a person you don't want them to damage their health") and reasonable and his points are right and have to be made. But with the beard issue many of us don't think that it's a good idea, for story reasons, for real life reasons, for what kind of message it would send. Since it is undecided in soapworld how necessary it would really be or whether Gregor and Olli are just honestly mistaken on this issue.
I don't think that VL judges people who have beard. Carla had a beard for over a year (and she actually married hers). And the beard proved to be pointless in the context of why she had him (she was afraid of her father's reaction but in the end her father reacted much more benevolently than she expected). But I think she was still very much supposed to be a likable character throughout it, so it would count as an understanable mistake.
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Post by ivaniv on Jun 25, 2008 13:22:25 GMT -5
I think that it is important that they talk, neither of them is sulking because of what the other did. It may not solve everything, but at least there's no buid up of tension. I find it very healthy actually. None of them is perfect, they both have their flaws, but they both want to get through the problems together.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 25, 2008 13:30:34 GMT -5
I don't know. I don't think it was necessarily resovled 100% in this episode (or rather the "Okay, I guess a beard makes sense" issue was resolved, whether the "You didn't talk to me first" issue was remains to be seen if C even considers it an issue). I guess we will only know in the next episode. I also think that is kinda how VL works. It isn't and it isn't treated as a huge insurmountable crime, but potentially many small things can build up and eventually become a problem (again, Christian and Coco comparison; the storyline never made any attempt IMO to portray Coco as the evil badguy, it's just that things added up over time and it led to complications; of course, they are the extreme case). Again, I guess only the next set of episodes will prove that ;D
That said, I don't think that the problem is anywhere close to Christian letting Olli manipulate him. After all, he was pretty quick to cut Olli off when they had the steroid discussion. We know that Christian can stand up to Olli and can ignore Olli's impassioned pleas if he wants to. Though if he chose not to go this way this time it means he must have wanted it this way.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jun 25, 2008 13:38:41 GMT -5
Exactly, Psionycx. Christian and Olli aren't totally 'isolated' with only interacting with themselves in their storyline. On certain days, those two are in the forefront of their story, with Gregor and Judith as their supporting background players. On other days, it's the other way around. I find that marvelous, because TPTB are making sure that Christian and Oliver are apart of the fabric of VL. Not, just some side dish, that's thrown in, for when they need something "exotic". I agree. It would be unhealthy in my mind if either Olli or Christian were using this situation to gain power or control over the other in the relationship. And I don't see these as the character motivations. I see naivety, for sure, but not manipulation. But this is a soap and there can be no story development without tensions. The initial buildup to Christian coming out and getting together with Olli is past, so now they need new challenges to overcome and so now we're dealing with the problem of Axel and the Neanderthals and having to use Judith as a beard. And it's actually good because it draws in the other characters. Olli is conspiring with Gregor (which is cute), Christian is thrust together with Judith and Fabian is annoyed as all heck.
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Post by ivaniv on Jun 25, 2008 13:40:13 GMT -5
That's what I meant, if Christian is really unhappy with something he tells Olli so. He did not look unhappy after Olli's explanation. It was a plan that was put to action before anybody could tell him, because it was necessary. As Olli said it was something they agreed upon that outing now is not a good idea. I do not think they are supressing problems that are going to explode later.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jun 25, 2008 13:40:32 GMT -5
Another aspect of the development of their storyline that I love, Ivan. You described it perfectly. ;D I think that it is important that they talk, neither of them is sulking because of what the other did. It may not solve everything, but at least there's no build up of tension. I find it very healthy actually. None of them is perfect, they both have their flaws, but they both want to get through the problems together.
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Post by iclickmyheels on Jun 25, 2008 13:43:12 GMT -5
my sort-of problem with this episode - and other times during the show is the total lack of response/surprise at finding out that someone is gay. the fact that fabian showed NO real reaction at all when judith told him Christian was gay rings false. Sure, maybe the writers want us to know that the characters are open-minded, or that being gay is a non-issue, which is great, but I'm as pro-gay as they come and if I found out that a friend i'd presumed to be straight was gay i'd at least be like "wait, what? really?!?!" or if fabian had already pregged christian as gay, an "omg, i knew it!!!" would suffice. even if he was mad at judith.
this same scenario bothered me when christian found gregor and coco in nolimits when he had just walked in on olli and timo as well. As soon as christian told coco and gregor that olli was gay - which he didnt even present in a mean way, just as a surprised matter of fact - they were like "and?? why are you being so homophobic?" Note to writers: Being surprised that someone is gay is not homophobic. i think christians reaction would be totally typical for any "straight" guy who happened to walk in on a male friend doing the dirty with another dude. i'd expect AT LEAST a week of being a little wierded out/surprised/awkward about the whole thing for even the most forward-thinking guy. honestly, it'd be pretty darn awkward walking in on almost anybody in the middle of a hot and heavy shirtless makeout session.
The fact that the annoucement of something as 'big' as someone's sexuality consistantly ganers less discussion that say, the weather, seems strange.
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Post by psionycx on Jun 25, 2008 13:46:16 GMT -5
Great post lolaruns! Very well thought out.
We do have to make allowances for the fact that people in both the real and soap worlds also don't always make the right decisions. But sometimes the right decision is unclear.
Real world fact: sports remain a bastion of homophobia. How many out gay athletes are there? How many are in sports like boxing or football? So is it irrational of Gregor to believe that Christian would have problems trying to break into boxing as openly bi/gay?
The beard thing is thus unpopular in the minds of people who want gay athletes to be able to compete openly as who they are. But in the real world that isn't the case. It's not even the case for actors! The use of beards is actually quite widespread among closeted entertainers and athletes in the real world.
So honestly it would actually be a fictional thing to portray a storyline where an openly bi/gay man could just waltz into the world of pro boxing without experiencing conflict and possible subtle blacklisting. It would certainly be highly unlikely in the real world.
So the whole notion actually isn't very odd. The fact that Gregor is in on it sort of shifts some of the responsibility off of Olli's shoulders though as he is not the sole mind behind the plot. Of course that just means Christian has two people to be annoyed with. But then, he's not wholly innocent either as he allowed Axel to believe that Judith was his girlfriend.
So if it's a bad decision it's partly his as well.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 25, 2008 13:50:34 GMT -5
I can only speak for my experiences, but for people of Fabian's age and education (which is basically around my age and education) I can easily see it being an issue of it being considered tacky to have a reaction to somebody being gay.
A good friend of mine outed himself to his college friends after a few years and among generally liberal/open minded people it's almost sort of a honor thing not to have any reaction/to be poker faced and doing any deeper digging would be considered prying and is only allowed if you really are good friends.
For example for the kind of relationship Fabian and Christian have it would be entirely inappropriate for him to ask question like "when did you first find out" and the like. It's a private affair.
It's what I do when I find out that somebody I know casually is gay/lesbian and I didn't know before. (also, Fabian only met Christian after Coco was gone, so he has no factual reason to go "Wait, didn't he use to date that chick Coco?") It's considered polite to at least act like finding out somebody is gay is a totally equal thing and you have to be very careful in your mind to only ask questions that you would also ask a straight person in the same situation. It's a mindset thing that people happens to exist among certain straight people with certain convictions/types of education and background.
For example the Christian vs Coco/Gregor scene gave me a clear "liberal Coco and Gregor think that Christian is acting like such a country bumpkin" vibe.
Maybe it's an issue of open US vs. more emotionally restrained Germany. Or an issue of city vs. country. I dunno. But Fabian's reaction and Coco/Gregor's reaction towards Coco were pretty much my own reactions when I found out/was informed that somebody in my surroundings was gay (a co worker, the brother of a friend whose family party we attended, the aforementioned college friend etc.) For straight people it's also always a sketchy etiquette question of how to tell a third party that a (not currently present) second party is gay/lesbian if you know about it and the third party doesn't. Again, in most cases you are not supposed to say because it is suposed to not be relevant. So it usually comes in the way of "X is gonna be coming with his boyfriend" or "X going on maternity leave because she is having a baby. With her girlfriend".
I think there are plenty of cases to be made with an eye on realism. Still, I think it's much more easier to see Olli not wanting C to take steroids as a pretty straight forward obvious proof of love than wanting him to get a beard. Particularly since it is much easier to believe that in soap world one could totally be an out gay boxing superstar (or just a boxing superstar within three months without any major background in boxing). Soaps are about dreams and impossible things, so one could be at the point where one doesn't buy that it's not possible. And can see this as a matter of faith. Olli believes that Christian can make it without steroids (no matter how unrealistic that is too in a real world context in this time frame), but he doesn't think he can make it without a beard? Of course, the show has made a case of it just being plain out practical. No beard - Axel refuses to be a sparring partner. Beard - Sparring, yay! Christian on the way to boxing superstardom!
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Post by iclickmyheels on Jun 25, 2008 14:59:58 GMT -5
yeah i can buy that. its the 'PC' thing to do, but it still seems...phony. I'd rather show some sort of positivity in reaction to someone's coming out instead of total...nothingness. If X tells you they're gay and you say "oh. nice day out isn't it?", X wouldn't really know whether you're reacting negatively by trying to ignore it or positively by making it a non-issue. I'd rather hear a 'oh, thats cool.' or something similarly affirmative. as for the issue of a second party telling a third party about someone being gay, I agree its a generally touchy thing, and that maybe that had something to do with the non-existant reactions. Maybe what it boils down to is that all the people on VL are much better people than I when it comes to the latest gossip. I wont share secrets told to me in confidence (I'm no Olivia, thank god), but if someone tosses me a juicy tidbit, I'll eat it up for sure. i mean, i read perez hilton, and im okay with it. sort of. actually, thats my secret. don't tell anyone. As for whether Judith or Christian were justified in telling Fabian or Coco and Gregor respectively, or if anyone is ever justified in outing another person, thats a whole other box of cereal that we won't get into...
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 25, 2008 15:05:30 GMT -5
Well, regardless of whether it is nice or not, I find it fairly realistic for people with their background.
As for "outing" a third person, I tend to assume that if I'm not a close friend who was told something in confidence, then it is reasonably public and therefore it should be appropriate to inform others. Doesn't mean that you should gossip about it, but you can say it.
(which is just my take on it, not everybody seems to agree, both among gay and straight people)
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Post by psionycx on Jun 25, 2008 15:27:12 GMT -5
I can only speak for my experiences, but for people of Fabian's age and education (which is basically around my age and education) I can easily see it being an issue of it being considered tacky to have a reaction to somebody being gay. Let's keep in mind here that it's not all about Christian. Realistically speaking Fabian probably doesn't care that much about Christian's sex life so long as it doesn't involve Judith. At that particular moment Fabian was far more concerned that Judith called Christian "sweetheart" and kissed him in front of everyone in No Limits, including Fabian himself. His lack of reaction to Judith's revelation probably had more to do with his disinterest in talking about Christian when he was more concerned about him and Judith. That's why his reaction consisted of asking Judith if she was trying to change Christian (i.e. he's asking her if she has the hots for Christian).
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j9l45
Junior Member
Posts: 622
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Post by j9l45 on Jun 29, 2008 22:53:26 GMT -5
I keep laughing at the part around :55 when Christian is upset that the deception may cause problems between Judith and Fabian. I can't decide if he is more upset about truly hurting them or about having to listen to Judith's play by play of it. And while I may have been team Consti, I have never disliked Fabian. Til now. I have no problems with his concerns (he's going through a lot right now with his family, the relationship with Judith has finally settled down a little, he must want some sense of stability and honesty), but I have a problem with the childish pouty way he is expressing them. And I secretly wanted Judith to say, "I'm surprised you stopped texting long enough to even notice." But that's my issue.
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