Oliver & Christian, 23.06.08, video and caps

[lolaruns]

IMO, Olli mostly apologized for the "hurting Judith" part of the whole thing. But that's just my take.

I think Olli has strong convictions. His strong conviction is that you shouldn't give up your dream or else you will regret it. He said so over and over again. I don't think that that is about him or about how that makes him feel, it's just a truth he happens to believe him. Just like Christian believes in his own set of truths (such as: dreams are not more important than honesty).

Any two people enter a relationship with their own perceptions of life. Either the percetions go together or they are changed or they don't. If Christian doesn't agree with Olli's "Your dreams are important" stance he can leave or he can try to put more effort in making a case why Olli is wrong.

Think of it as the equivalent of dating an animal activist. Either you agree, or you disagree but can live with it, or you can't live with it and leave or you try to ameliorate their stance. That doesn't mean that the person in question is being manipulative if they try to get you to join the cause.

For what it's worth I think Olli's plan went something like this:
- Get Judith's okay
- Get Fabian's okay
- Present the whole case to Christian after he as already established that it is doable

But he got interrupted by Axel arriving and by Judith acting on her own.

[tihkon2]

I still say, that it's my personal opinion that there is no intent to show or portray Olli as manipulative. I think it's simply a case of people seeing something through the filters of their own life. And I guess my life experience hasn't made me see Olli as manipulative.

[lolaruns]

No, Olli doesn't have to be perfect. But he doesn't need to be controlling either. I accept that he is. But I don't have to like it.

And Christian doesn't have to yell at people, accuse them of things that are off base, threaten them with physical violence and come close to manhandling them. Guess what, he still does.

Or you know, kinda sidestep his own ideals like when he is oh so honest but was treading his feet in regards to outing himself to Gregor even though in this case Olli actually wanted him to do it.

You get to call Olli Papa Olli, I get to call Christian wifebeater waiting to happen.

[lolaruns]

And I think that's bullshit, because it strikes me no different than what many people including Christian do in arguments.

IMO Olli is upfront about his intentions. Christian can take it or leave it. Olli said he was sorry about hurting Fabian/Judith. And I believe that because that is what he told Fabian, that he meant to tell Fabian beforehand and clear it with him but events happened.

Summary:

Christian: Blablablaba, YOU came up with that
Olli: blablabla what is your problem, I thought we agreed on that, it's a white lie
Christian: fake girlfriends are worse than just not talking about your sexuality. Besides, have you considered that you dragged Judith into something that will definitely get her into trouble with Fabian.
Olli: Okay (conceding). I'm sorry about that. (Das tut mir leid)

[restenergy]

Jun 24, 2008 15:10:11 GMT -5 @biglug said:

Just to be clear, not all manipulation is malicious and (as I said in my last post) I do not mean to suggest that Olli has an uncaring bone in his body.

If an action is malicious or not speaks to at least one aspect of the intention of the one who acts. Manipulation can be done without being malicious. On the other hand, if we really thought that an action was beneficial or benign, we wouldn't be all that likely to also speak of it as manipulative. Manipulative implies that the manipulator is regarding the manipulatee more as object than subject. Describing an action or an individual as manipulative also implies some negative judgement upon the activity. Malicious or not, we are not likely to regard manipulative as a good thing.

Jun 24, 2008 14:04:19 GMT -5 restenergy said:

It seems to me that manipulation take place toward some end. Well, then, if Olli is being manipulative to what end? What purpose does it serve?

Well, to ameliorate Christian's anger.

The discussion, as I've understood it, has not only described Olli's statement about not wanting to see Christian throw away his career for Olli's sake, but has more generally described Olli's behavior toward Christian, especially in regards to coming out in the boxing world, as manipulative. It is in that context, and thus more generally, that I wonder about what purpose and end Olli's supposed manipulativeness would serve.

Exactly. Olli can't bear it -- i.e. Olli can't bear how it would make HIM feel despite the fact that Christian has made plain his priorities.

That Olli has such emotions doesn't mean it's about Olli. These emotions are about his care and love for Christian. Olli can't bear it because it's about Christian, his beloved. It isn't a matter of Olli's own selfish emotional fulfillment. Those emotions flow from caring deeply about another.

Indeed, I think that if it was about Olli and his own emotions and needs and desires, we'd see different behavior from him. I don't think Olli's druthers would be for any of this hiding of sexuality and of the relationship between our two guys. We've seen this earlier in the story. Olli was patient for Christian to come to the right time, while also encouraging him to make steps out. I see no plausible motive here for Olli's supposed manipulation of Christian (which I don't think is manipulative in intent or in fact) to be about Olli's own personal and emotional needs over and against Christian's.

[lolaruns]

Olli thinks he is right. Olli thinks he has the knowledge advantage on Christian here. Olli has been upfront about that. If Christian thinks that Olli is riding this case, this conviction too hard, then it's up to him to leave. But he doesn't. Because IMO on some level he agrees. Or believes/trusts Olli and Gregor's judgement. Like he ended up doing today even without Olli looking over his shoulders just by sitting around with Judith.

Christian may beat him for it later, but he hasn't.

So I just imagined all this grabbing him at the collar and pushing him around before they got together? The threatening of physical violence? To me that were inappropriate actions, regardless of what kind of mood Christian was in. Apparently, Olli seems to disagree because he thought Christian was worth it anyway. Just like Christian seems to think that Olli is worth it anyway for now.

[lolaruns]

So are you saying that because I don't understand German that I'm not getting the full gist of the exchange? Because the subtitled clip I'm going off of says something a little different. And that's putting aside the bits you left out -- like Christian saying he's pissed because Olli made the decision on his own.

Check your own ears. Olli says "Das tut mir leid" ("I'm sorry about that" even if the translation only says "I'm sorry". If it had just been "I'm sorry" it would have been just "tut mir leid" in German). And the last thing that Christian says before the "that" is the "and btw this is hurting Judith".

IMO you keep obsessing over irrational details. And you have been pretty much since you joined the board. If you find the relationship so distasteful to watch, why not focus your attention on Nuke or DeRo or JPK?

Every relationship has their dynamics. One doesn't have to like all potential types. There are plenty of relationship types that I find distasteful and I don't fault people who like them even if I don't. This happens to be the Ollian dynamic. And it's not gonna magically change because you happen to complain about it.

Upfront? Okay, perhaps. But he goes behind Christian's back to carry out his intentions. And didn't Gregor point this out to Olli?

Like I said, I think he had every intention to present the case to Christian once he had built his case by talking to Judith and Fabian. Which got interrupted. Does that constitute going behind somebody's back or being upfront? Or something in between. Olli went ahead with it even after Gregor pointed that out because he was sure he could win Christian over in an argument about it. And it's not like he could avoid having that argument. Its not like Christian wouldn't notice if he suddenly had a fake girlfriend.

[restenergy]

Jun 24, 2008 15:23:20 GMT -5 @biglug said:

No, Olli doesn't have to be perfect. But he doesn't need to be controlling either. I accept that he is. But I don't have to like it.

Olli is controlling? I don't think that's true. That's not how I understand Olli or his actions. He asserts himself when he needs to. Mostly he does so by making his case to Christian. Occasionally he acts. But mostly Olli seems to rely on winning the argument rather than on controlling Christian. Besides, Olli would never get away with controlling Christian. Christian wouldn't let that happen, even though he deeply loves Olli. Christian is still acting of his own accord.

Wouldn't it have been nice if they'd have tried to convince Christian?

Yes, it would have been. Events got away from them before they had a chance to even start talking to Christian.

Olli is working on a proposal like someone working on a problem in the office might. The worker has an idea on solving the problem, but knows that getting the boss to agree might be difficult. Instead of presenting the kernel of the idea, the worker does some homework. People who have a stake are spoken to. Systems and other considerations are looked into. A plan is put together. Possible objections are considered and answers to them are worked out. Then the whole thing can be presented as a workable solution rather than just a vague idea. There is a much greater chance it will get looked at seriously, and even agreed to, that way. The problem here is that the plan was being worked on, and before the plan could be completed and presented, things started to happen and someone acted as if it were all in place.

I don't think it was ever the intent of anyone to not talk to Christian about it before it was put into action.

[tihkon2]

Wow.

I don't think Olli's a manipulator, and I most definately do not agree that Christian is a potential abuser. What Lola regarded as a big deal, ie: Collar grabbing and a shove and a verbal threat to kick Olli's ass were issued over a period of months before they were a couple. They are two guys, and at that time C was "straight" and with a girlfriend. He had just been kissed on the lips by the man who also made out with his girlfriend.

I see no correlation here at all between the behavior Christian exhibited during that timeframe and the behavior of an abusive boyfriend.

None.


To put it simply, it was exactly how I would expect an average straight guy to react in those situations.

There has not been one instance that I can recall since they've become a couple that would lead me in even the most wildest imagination to even entertain the notion that C would abuse Olli.

[restenergy]

Tihkon, we seem to be on very similar wavelengths today. I've really appreciated what Lola has said, but I don't think that there is any hint of potential abusiveness of Olli on the part of Christian, just as I don't think Olli is a manipulator or controlling.

[tihkon2]

Tihkon, we seem to be on very similar wavelengths today.

Dude...

I'm kind of sitting here in shock.

[Bonobochick]

Deep breath, folks!

Debate is good but let's be careful.

[lolaruns]

IMO it's like Christian and Olli are working on the same turf. They have the same goal: boxing Christian.

The way I see it, this goal is independant of Ollian as a couple, as Olli was supporting the whole "give Christian any dream her wants" deal even before they were a couple or there was even much of a chance of them to be a couple from his perspective.

This goal is something Olli believes in and is passionate about. Maybe he even believes in it more than Christian himself (again we have evidence of Christan having low self esteem in this regard, see ex-con vs. college application). It's not something he intends to give up easily. Christian too wants this goal, though maybe not as deeply as Olli does (though it's hard to compare. Christian was willing to give up boxing for Olli when he fired Wolle. Olli thinks that Olli's comfort is not important enough to lose your dream for it. We don't know yet if Olli thinks that the dream is more important than Christian even though he thinks that the dream is more important than Olli).

Take the Wolle situation. Olli was against firing him. Christian did it anyway. Afterwards Olli said he thought it was a mistake. Did he dwell on it and nag about it? Not really. But he was looking for or at least supporting other methods (Gregor as the promoter) that would help continue the dream at a point where Christian had been ready to close the chapter.

Take the steroid situation. Here Christian was ready to fuck up his own supposedly high ideals to get to his goal faster showing rather disturbing amounts of ambition. Olli was against it. Deeply against it. Argued against it. Tried blackmail even, which Christian shot down immediately. Olli argued some more. Olli finally came around and grudginly decided on the stance of "I strongly object, but I'm still with you no matter what". His own version of a compromise.

Just like it is Christian's compromise towards Olli and Gregor's conviction to keep it quiet till the big fight. Olli and Gregor are convinced that outing himself will ruin his career. Christian originally thought he could make it on talent alone. Then heard their arguments and saw bits of the evidence (Axel denying him a sparring partner because he thinks he is gay, Wolle telling the story that he would fire anybody who is revealed as gay) and decided his temper his optimism but still keep it in the form of agreeing to stay quiet till the big fight where he will have proven his abilities and where outing himself won't hurt him any longer.

I do fully think that Olli and Christian have different ideas of honesty and what measures are appropriate (bearding vs. not bearding; and yet, Christian pro steroids and Olli anti-steroids?). And I fully think that it is gonna be a bone of contention or future conflict in the future. +

That doesn't mean that I agree with the idea of Olli the manipulator and Christian the hapless victim.

+ In fact, I bet there are a tons of things that they have different takes on. For example, I tend to think that Olli was more of a Gregor before he fell for Christian. And we all know how Christian feels about Gregor's sexual mores. And I would dare say Christian would have been rather appalled by Olli's "I cheated on my boyfriend with a woman because he cheated on me first and then we decided we were even and decided to stay together" experience.

But again, having different takes on life or different personalities =//= hapless victim.

There has not been one instance that I can recall since they've become a couple that would lead me in even the most wildest imagination to even entertain the notion that C would abuse Olli.

People project their own experiences on things. Maybe it's a female thing. But there were a lot of scenes of Christian both with Olli and with Coco that gave me the creeps. There is more than one kind of abuse and to me Christian was skating fairly close to it a bunch of times.

[tihkon2]

People project their own experiences on things. Maybe it's a female thing. But there were a lot of scenes of Christian both with Olli and with Coco that gave me the creeps. There is more than one kind of abuse and to me Christian was skating fairly close to it a bunch of times.

The only reply I have to that since of course, that is your opinion,
is the same one I say to the "Olli is a manipulator" thingy.

Do you think that is the writers' intent? To portray Christian as a potential boyfriend/ girlfriend abuser.

I believe that is not the intention of the production team.

[ivaniv]

Christian the abuser, Olli the manipulator, Olivia the funny and cool one , I seem to be watching a completely different programme

[lolaruns]

I believe that is not the intention of the production team.

The production team also thinks that Fabian is a real stud and that Sarah and Leonard are a beautiful torrid romance. Doesn't mean I have to buy it. ;D

I do think that Christian is supposed to be brash and irrational and have a temper (remember, guy who punched his brother in an arguments over their father; guy who accidentally punched out Coco when he was trying to punch Andi). And it depends on people's experiences whether they think it's cute.

Just like they can portray somebody as a hot badboy and depening on your personal experiences with badboys you will decide for yourself if you think they are hot and angsty or just self-important whiners.

Interrupted? Judith was either non-commital or said no. What interruption?

Judith saying no is not an interruption of Olli's plan? Judith jumping in and doing stuff before he could clear it with Fabian and Christian is not an unforeseen interruption of Olli's plan?

Shall we move along to a discussion of how stupid you think the whole boxing storyline line is? And where have I "fault[ed]" ANYONE for liking anything? Discuss? Yes. Argue? Yes. Debate? Yes. Disagree? Yes. Fault? Not one damn time.

Oh please, going on about how manipulative you find Olli of course carries a judgement in it. A "how can you like it if Olli is obviously manipulative" kind of judgement. Again, if you find it so stupid, why bother watching? Your life doesn't hinge on it. There are plenty of other gay storylines that you could watch. Why hinge your life on this storyline if you don't seem to enjoy it based on the kind of criticism you decide to throw at it.

I do criticize the storyline. I too constantly complain. I tend to think that I do it in a way that makes it obvious that I still like it at the core of it (otherwise I would have stopped watching). In my eyes you don't.

That is entirely unfair and kind of a cheap shot.

Got any other suggestions about how to prove it to you? It's there. You can choose to believe me or deduce that I have nefarious reasons for lying about it.

[Bonobochick]

Seriously people... it's becoming personal and folks need to dial it down. Now.


Any more posts that exacerbate the current heightened situation will be deleted.

[tihkon2]

Christian the abuser, Olli the manipulator, Olivia the funny and cool one , I seem to be watching a completely different programme

Ivan

I just made the same observation to someone in a PM, and also yesterday.

I am most definately NOT watching the same story as some other people on this board.

The one I'm watching has so far been a mostly feel good story with some ups and downs, about two nice young men in love.



I'll take my version over the others I'm reading about!

;D

[GayTime]

DO SOME DEEP BREATHING EXERCISES, Y'ALL!
It's exactly this type of discourse that so far TGoDT was known NOT to have and we would all like to keep it that way.

If you wanna battle it out, there's PM. This TOTALLY spiraled out of control. I don't wanna be the one telling people Santa Claus doesn't exist, but you are getting WAY to worked up and personal about FICTIONAL characters!

[amber80]

Jun 24, 2008 16:42:11 GMT -5 @ivaniv said:

Christian the abuser, Olli the manipulator, Olivia the funny and cool one , I seem to be watching a completely different programme

Call me confused too...

Edit: Sorry, only just now noticed the last posts. I agree.

[Difficult Diva]

What in the hell is going on?!

[lolaruns]

It's not my intention to prove that Christian is a future wifebeater. It's me arguing that the case for wifebeater is equally as (not) strong as the case for Olli the manipulator.

[tihkon2]

Never mind....

<deep breaths>

[lolaruns]

To me it's reductio ad absurdum If I believed Olli was a manipulator on this evidence, I can equally deduce that Gregor is secretly the reincarnation of Hitler. Everything is possible. I just have to repeat it often enough.

(and hey, if Gregor seriously gave me an reincarnation of Hitler vibe, I wouldn't be able to find any of his pairings hot either)

[gastLXXXIV]

By the 'purist' standard being advocated by some here, anyone who ever acts--rather than only reacts--or justifies his action should be deemed 'manipulative'. But doesn't this rather void the word of any useful application?

For me the case rests primarily on two things: intention and results. Regarding the former, I think no one has seriously questioned the altruistic nature of Olli's motives.

Regarding results: it seems to be the writers' premise--and the consensus among the characters--that Christian's career is nipped in the bud if he's outed / outs himself before he shows he's got what it takes.

So Olli's intervention has simply kept Christian's 'dream' on track, when C himself--whether high-mindedly or simply combatively--would have derailed it.

Therefore--in my view and so far--Olli seems entirely vindicated. For Christian, he's the ideal mate--which Christian recognizes once each crisis is past, and which he has impassionedly acknowledged (the 'sirtaki' soliloquy).