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Post by stuartsez on Jun 23, 2008 23:51:40 GMT -5
I'm with psionyx on this one. Olli & Gregor are cute when they work together, but if I were Christian, I'd have told them both to piss off. They crossed the line from helpful to manipulative. Olli's intentions are good, but he's trying too hard - this is Christian's life, and if he wants to live it honestly and come out, it's not for Olli to tell him "no".
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mgh48
Junior Member
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Post by mgh48 on Jun 23, 2008 23:55:00 GMT -5
What I got out of this one:
More examples of real love between Olli and Chris. When you love someone so much their well-being comes before your own. That's what they both showed in this epi. Finally, Chris allows it to go forward because he believes he will be vindicated, all their turmoil will be worth it for the Big Fight.
Both of them are so concerned about the other's feelings and doing right by the other. I don't think Christian has ever had someone care so much about him on that level before. And, of course, Olli keeps getting reminders of how much Christian cares about his feelings and the deep need to express his feelings publicly.
I hope it works out right, in the end.
Geoff
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 24, 2008 1:04:36 GMT -5
Thank you so much Nanna and everybody for the great subtitling job.
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Post by ivaniv on Jun 24, 2008 1:06:03 GMT -5
Miriam and that machine is a running theme, when she's not there breaking glasses, she struggles with that machine ;D I think that's all what it was, she wasn't hitting on Olli.
As for Oliver's meddling, Christian could have told him so many times that it had to stop, if it really was such a huge problem, but he didn't. And as it turned out, once again Olli was right in guessing what Christian wants. If Christian is happy with it, that he has somebody who cares so much for him, why should we get worked up over it.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 24, 2008 1:18:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree, clumsy Miriam is sort of an injoke that has existed since episode one. Poor Miriam, I actually feel sorry for the actress. There were a lot of pointers that Miriam was probably supposed to end up being Lars' daugther (because the story of Lars' childhood girlfriend and Charlie giving her money for an abortion was brought up right when Miriam joined the show and this old childhood sweetheart of Lars was brought up a bunch of times recently). Which would actually make her a cousin to Olli and Olivia ;D
But it seems that they dropped the storyline, probably because of a combo of the actress not being very strong and now it turns out that the guy playing uncle Lars got an offer as a lead on a different show, so they are probably not gonna make Miriam his daughter if he's not gonna be on the show anymore.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
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Post by restenergy on Jun 24, 2008 1:30:20 GMT -5
I kinda love that Fabian is suspicious. Judith informing him that Christian dates guys didn't seem to phaze his suspicions at all. Which is nice, that means that Fabian can do the job of being the watchful spoilsport and Olli doesn't have to be, but at the same time it means that not everybody on the show is acting like it's completely normal and natural. I hadn't tought about that angle yet. Thanks for pointing that out. It is good that not everyone thinks this is normal and natural. I must have missed that. Darn, I'll have to watch it again.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 24, 2008 1:43:51 GMT -5
Sorry, my bad. I remembered it wrong. He said that to Fabian, not Christian (that they were planning to ask them but stuff happened).
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restenergy
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Olli forever (and Christian, too)
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Post by restenergy on Jun 24, 2008 2:31:14 GMT -5
I'm with psionyx on this one. Olli & Gregor are cute when they work together, but if I were Christian, I'd have told them both to piss off. They crossed the line from helpful to manipulative. Olli's intentions are good, but he's trying too hard - this is Christian's life, and if he wants to live it honestly and come out, it's not for Olli to tell him "no". I don't think it's quite that simple. One certainly doesn't loose their own life, or control over it, when one becomes two. That would be unhealthy. On the other hand, when one is part of a couple, you aren't entirely your own anymore, either. I don't think Olli and Gregor went so far that they've become manipulative. Whether he's trying to hard and should just let Christian do what he wants on this is open for debate. It may not be for Olli to dictate, but Olli does and should have a voice in the matter, especially if they are, or are to be, a healthy couple. Geoff, thanks for you post, too. I think you're quite right. We are seeing both of them care for one another. I do think it will work out, at least for Christian and Olli, even if not for Christians boxing career. As for Oliver's meddling, Christian could have told him so many times that it had to stop, if it really was such a huge problem, but he didn't. And as it turned out, once again Olli was right in guessing what Christian wants. If Christian is happy with it, that he has somebody who cares so much for him, why should we get worked up over it. Ivan, I think you hit the nail on the head. Christian has not gone out of his way to say enough. That should count for something in these discussions.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 24, 2008 2:36:42 GMT -5
I think the idea is that Grolli should have brought up the beard suggestion first with Christian before they rope Judith into it. (though I think the plan was to prepare everything and present it to Christian in a "look, it's totally workable, he even already got a beard for you and she and Fabian are okay with it" kind of way)
That said, if all characters on soaps only acted the 100% correct way then there would be no storylines at all.
I still don't particularly like the beard thing because I think that is does feel more dishonest than just not talking about your relationship. What they are doing is deception. And while deception might be okay with the bad people of the world, it's also deceiving of any people who might not have had a problem with it.
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restenergy
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Olli forever (and Christian, too)
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Post by restenergy on Jun 24, 2008 2:37:04 GMT -5
Sorry, my bad. I remembered it wrong. He said that to Fabian, not Christian (that they were planning to ask them but stuff happened). OK, so I'm not loosing my mind. No problem, Lola.
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Post by ivaniv on Jun 24, 2008 5:28:16 GMT -5
I hadn't tought about that angle yet. Thanks for pointing that out. It is good that not everyone thinks this is normal and natural. He knew about Oliver and had no problems with him, so this was just a bit of surprise and that was it. Gregor's reaction was a bit different, because he's family, the whole trust issues, plus he got a visual demonstration.
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 24, 2008 8:52:41 GMT -5
What I got out of this one: More examples of real love between Olli and Chris. When you love someone so much their well-being comes before your own. That's what they both showed in this epi. Finally, Chris allows it to go forward because he believes he will be vindicated, all their turmoil will be worth it for the Big Fight. Both of them are so concerned about the other's feelings and doing right by the other. I don't think Christian has ever had someone care so much about him on that level before. And, of course, Olli keeps getting reminders of how much Christian cares about his feelings and the deep need to express his feelings publicly. I hope it works out right, in the end. Geoff I like that view of it: that each of them is motivated to defend the other. I've always thought the human spirit is better suited to championing another's cause than one's own. And I'd say that kind of motive can easily redeem 'meddling' in a romantic relationship. And such motivation is in 'noble' contrast to the unsavoriness of the adversity they're confronting.
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restenergy
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Olli forever (and Christian, too)
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Post by restenergy on Jun 24, 2008 12:00:54 GMT -5
I hadn't tought about that angle yet. Thanks for pointing that out. It is good that not everyone thinks this is normal and natural. He knew about Oliver and had no problems with him, so this was just a bit of surprise and that was it. Gregor's reaction was a bit different, because he's family, the whole trust issues, plus he got a visual demonstration. I'm confused, Ivan. I thought that what Lola was talking about was the beard thing, not the sexuality thing. Fabian doesn't seem to have any problem with Christian and Olli's sexuality. He doesn't quite seem to think the beard thing is without it's oddities. Maybe I misunderstood Lola.
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mgh48
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Post by mgh48 on Jun 24, 2008 12:11:33 GMT -5
Yeah, he doesn't really seem to care about Christian being Gay or Bi or whatever, only that he 'borrowed' his girlfriend without discussing it with him. And, of course, he doesn't want it happen in the first place.
Who would?
heh
Geoff
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Post by calaeb on Jun 24, 2008 12:15:02 GMT -5
Yeah, he doesn't really seem to care about Christian being Gay or Bi or whatever, only that he 'borrowed' his girlfriend without discussing it with him. And, of course, he doesn't want it happen in the first place. Who would? Luke seemed okay with it... maybe Olli's been watching a little too much ATWT?? hehe
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 24, 2008 12:15:17 GMT -5
Yes, Fabian's mind seemed to go straight to "Gay, bi, whatever, DOES THAT MEAN THAT IT WILL BE HARDER FOR ME TO GET NOOKIE WITH MY GIRLFRIEND?" ;D
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momnoc
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"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." Dr. Seuss
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Post by momnoc on Jun 24, 2008 12:29:08 GMT -5
Just watched the subbed version on YT - thanks Nanna. I have to say I really feel for Christian in this episode. He's suddenly found himself in this position without any consultation and everybody telling him it's for the best. Olli then pushes the case even further by stating that he doesn't want to be the reason Christian has to give up his dream. My god - what a complete mindfuck! I just got a chance to watch the subbed version ( THANK YOU NANNA) and there is one part that really bugs me. At about the one minute mark Olli says he's sorry and adds: "What was I supposed to do just stand by and watch you give up your dream because of me"How did this all get be to be Olli's fault? Did Olli hold Christian captive and make him gay? Did he make Christian fall in love with him? Did Olli make the boxing industry homophobic? I can't believe Christian didn't step up and straighten (no pun intended) Olli out on the facts! Instead he just let Olli carry the whole load!
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dkp
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Post by dkp on Jun 24, 2008 13:22:12 GMT -5
Yeah that "What was I supposed to do just stand by and watch you give up your dream because of me" irked me somewhat too, because biglug your right, it was some thinly veiled manipulation from Olli even if he didn't mean it to be manipulative.
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Post by ivaniv on Jun 24, 2008 13:30:10 GMT -5
You know, this "manipulation", it may end up with Christian getting a taste of the boxing and deciding he does not want to put that in jeopardy by being accidentally outed. So Olli is rather selfless in doing that and not a manipulator that enjoys playing with his toy.
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momnoc
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Post by momnoc on Jun 24, 2008 13:30:25 GMT -5
I just got a chance to watch the subbed version ( THANK YOU NANNA) and there is one part that really bugs me. At about the one minute mark Olli says he's sorry and adds: "What was I supposed to do just stand by and watch you give up your dream because of me"How did this all get be to be Olli's fault? Did Olli hold Christian captive and make him gay? Did he make Christian fall in love with him? Did Olli make the boxing industry homophobic? I can't believe Christian didn't step up and straighten (no pun intended) Olli out on the facts! Instead he just let Olli carry the whole load! Well, it is all Olli's load. Olli's is at fault because he did it without asking or telling -- especially inasmuch as he knew, in fact, explicitly stated, that Christian wouldn't want to do it. And Christian did step up and straighten him out a few lines earlier when he said: " I'm pissed off that you made this decision on your own." But the line you quote bugs me too. To me, it's a thinly veiled manipulation -- turning his inappropriate action, that was supposedly for Christian's benefit, into something about him. I didn't take the line to have anything to do with the beard/Judith situation. I thought it was more of a "bigger picture" statement. More like Olli felt like he had to do something to help Christians gay/boxer situation because, he Olli, had created it by merely being Christians love interest. And I just don't think that is a fair or true statment about Olli.
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restenergy
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Post by restenergy on Jun 24, 2008 14:04:19 GMT -5
But the line you quote bugs me too. To me, it's a thinly veiled manipulation -- turning his inappropriate action, that was supposedly for Christian's benefit, into something about him. It seems to me that manipulation take place toward some end. Well, then, if Olli is being manipulative to what end? What purpose does it serve? Olli's statement that he could not stand by and watch Christian give up his dream because of him doesn't turn all this into something about Olli. That understanding turns the statement on its head. Olli knows that Christian would give up his boxing career for him. Christian has said so. But Olli can't bear that Christian would make that choice without first having the opportunity to at least give his dream a good and solid chance. That is all about Christian, and Olli's caring about Christian, and so Olli wants to do what he can to allow Christian to pursue that dream. It seems to me that Olli is willing to risk his relationship to do what he can for Christian. I also think that Christian understands this. That's communicated by Christian's reaction to the statement. It is not further anger at manipulativeness, nor does it strike me as resignation to Olli's will. What also seems to be missing is any thought of Olli's own reaction in this scene. Everyone is focusing only on Christian's side of the emotional equation, it seems to me. Olli's tone of voice changes after Christian's rant. When he says he's sorry, I don't think he's just saying it. He does seem, at least to me, to feel Christian's displeasure greatly. I think it hurts not just because Christian is upset, but because it's a point where Olli is trying to help and trying to care for his dear one. The situation is a plan that didn't quite go as intended. Things happened faster than expected, and Judith started with it as a spur-of-the-moment reaction to the situation. There hadn't yet been a chance to speak to either Fabian or Christian. Maybe Christian would have rejected the plan, maybe not. But to treat the situation as if it went off according to intentions seems to me to not be putting the best construction on the events. It also, it seems to me, is trying to look for something bad from Olli's part. It seems to me that it is looking too hard for something that is wrong and even catastrophic here. And, finally, it seems to paint a picture of Olli's character that I don't think is actually borne out in the portrayal we have seen to this point.
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dkp
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Post by dkp on Jun 24, 2008 14:14:39 GMT -5
You know, this "manipulation", it may end up with Christian getting a taste of the boxing and deciding he does not want to put that in jeopardy by being accidentally outed. So Olli is rather selfless in doing that and not a manipulator that enjoys playing with his toy. Good point, which is why I'm an most on the fence, because I can certainly see the other side as well.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 24, 2008 14:29:38 GMT -5
But isn't that how people interact with each other? Particularly when they are arguing with each other? It's not like Christian is incapable of dealing out low blows (though he admittedly is more straightforward than most people)
The show has IMO made it rather obvious that Olli does things without gain. That, imo, he would do the same things if he wasn't in a relationship with Christian because he was doing them long before he ever imagined that he might actually end up in Christian's bed one day.
And considering that Christian's version of eating crow usually doesn't go further than "I'm sorry, maybe I overreacted" no matter what the throws at people I don't think that Olli or anybody else owes Christian a dance of the seven veils.
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Post by tihkon2 on Jun 24, 2008 14:30:21 GMT -5
Amen , Wisconsin. I agree. I don't agree that Olli is manipulative , and I don't think there is any intent whatsoever on the writer's part to show him as manipulative. As ever, just my opinion.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 24, 2008 14:36:31 GMT -5
I think there is about equally as much intent to show Olli as a manipulative bastard as there is to show Christian as a wifebeating authorative bastard. ;D
Both are flawed. Both have the option to take it or leave it. Olli doesn't have the obligation to be any more the perfect angelic selfless boyfriend that he already is.
For better or worse, Olli and Gregor are convinced that outing himself is a step that Christian just couldn't take back and that would irrevocably damage his career. They might very easily be wrong. Doesn't change that they are convinced of it.
Of course Christian can make his own decisions. Olli told him not to fire Wolle. Christian did it anyway because his consience dictated it to him. Olli has a right to make his case. Christian has a right to survey it and reject it or listen to it. Besides, he used to date women, I'm sure he is used to much worse
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