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Post by sheepiefarm on Jun 13, 2008 20:34:44 GMT -5
I think the key observation is that Christian lectures to Gregor what Christian needs, himself, to be convinced of. We--just as would the other characters of the story, who have heard anything that Gregor's actually said on the subject--recognize that the 'lecture' is misdirected. I suppose what puzzles me slightly then is why is this "angry tirade" only directed at Gregor? Christian also - has heard as much as we have heard about Gregor's stance on homosexuality. I think he desperately needs Gregor's acceptance - but the fear of that not happening was greater than his ability to face the possibility of it being OK. We've already seen this a number of times with Christian... He tried to cling on to Coco when he realised he was attracted to Olli. When he realised it was Olli he'd been chatting to on the internet about his feelings for "Olli" he immediately backtracked and tried to deny it. He didn't apply to college because he assumed he wouldn't get in with a prison record. I agree, there probably was an element of this - but I think this "demon" would have manifested itself towards many more people than "just" Gregor. Although the Mann brothers quite clearly love each other as brothers do - I don't think they are "close" in terms of really knowing or understanding each other. Gregor and Christian both had very different views on thier own father - something that has caused conflict between them in the past. Christian idolised his father, while Gregor had no time for him - this, I think, is something that Christian still does not fully understand or comprehend. If he could despise his own father - then maybe he could despise his own brother too? We also see this reversed from Gregor i.e. Gregor was hurt by the realisation that Christian didn't trust him. Which is why, I think, Christian's reaction to Gregor is less about his own demons amd more about the relationship he has with his brother.
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Post by sheepiefarm on Jun 13, 2008 20:43:27 GMT -5
First let me say, I am a huge Andreas fan, and he was fantastic in these scenes, but is it just me, or did he not look so good in this clip? I don't know what else is going on with he and Sarah, and of course he just found out that Christian didn't trust him and thought he was an a**hole......... but to me he looked really tired in this espisode. (runs and ducks for cover!) I think he did, especially when Olli was confronting him. But I thought it was very fitting. He thought the brother who would stick with him through think and thin wasn't and thought ill of him. He had rather shockingly discovered something rather significant about his brother that he didn't expect. I think it's thrown Gregor for a very big loop. He's adrift. Look at the way he polishes that glass when Olli comes in. He's just going through the day in a fog. I think he's been in it every since he opened the door to Christian's room. When defending his Mann, Olli also ends up snapping the other Mann out of it. It's okay Amber you can come out of hiding I agree with Restenergy - he looks like someone who has just discovered that he really doesn't know his "little" brother quite as well as he thought he did. He's also just realised that his little brother doesn't trust him or think he can talk / turn to him - he's also probably just realised that he's been so wrapped up in his own problems that he hasn't actually noticed what is going on in his brother's life. No - he doesn't look great - but he sure looks the way someone should look, right at that moment in the story.
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j9l45
Junior Member
Posts: 622
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Post by j9l45 on Jun 13, 2008 20:49:40 GMT -5
Gregor and Christian both had very different views on thier own father - something that has caused conflict between them in the past. Christian idolised his father, while Gregor had no time for him - this, I think, is something that Christian still does not fully understand or comprehend. If he could despise his own father - then maybe he could despise his own brother too? Great point. I had never thought about that.
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momnoc
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"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." Dr. Seuss
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Post by momnoc on Jun 13, 2008 20:55:23 GMT -5
I think he did, especially when Olli was confronting him. But I thought it was very fitting. He thought the brother who would stick with him through think and thin wasn't and thought ill of him. He had rather shockingly discovered something rather significant about his brother that he didn't expect. I think it's thrown Gregor for a very big loop. He's adrift. Look at the way he polishes that glass when Olli comes in. He's just going through the day in a fog. I think he's been in it every since he opened the door to Christian's room. When defending his Mann, Olli also ends up snapping the other Mann out of it. It's okay Amber you can come out of hiding Sheepie why would Amber be hiding?
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Post by sheepiefarm on Jun 13, 2008 21:02:44 GMT -5
It's okay Amber you can come out of hiding Sheepie why would Amber be hiding? Sheesh - well it is 3am here. You see MOM - you've changed your Avatar and it looks like one Amber used to have. Anyway - it got you out of hiding, didn't it ;D
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momnoc
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"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." Dr. Seuss
Posts: 1,613
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Post by momnoc on Jun 13, 2008 21:05:42 GMT -5
Sheepie why would Amber be hiding? Sheesh - well it is 3am here. You see MOM - you've changed your Avatar and it looks like one Amber used to have. Anyway - it got you out of hiding, didn't it ;D Yeah, thank you for that!
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restenergy
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Olli forever (and Christian, too)
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Post by restenergy on Jun 13, 2008 21:14:05 GMT -5
I think the key observation is that Christian lectures to Gregor what Christian needs, himself, to be convinced of. We--just as would the other characters of the story, who have heard anything that Gregor's actually said on the subject--recognize that the 'lecture' is misdirected. Gregor has several times--and quite explicitly--made it clear to Christian that he is not prejudiced against gay sex--is, rather, entirely accepting of homosexuality and of those who, like Olli, practice it. In fact--and as others as have pointed out--on more than one occasion he'd actively and pointedly disapproved of Christian's seeming homophobia. Upon discovering C&O together in bed, Gregor reacts--with surprise and puzzlement, yes--but all he actually does is to politely excuse himself--gives no basis for Christian's accusation that he'd not told his brother because he knew Gregor would "react just like this." Gregor's demeanor at the door is a recognition that Christian is arguing with himself, not really with him. But what disturbs Gregor is the recognition that Christian, evidently, knows and trusts him so little. We see that that's why Gregor's hurt, but Christian hasn't a clue. Until, of course, Olli and Gregor talk, Gregor comes to understand that his role as big brother entails patience in this as well. Then, with their conversation and Gregor's clarification, Christian too finally comes to understand--and accept--which is what the slight nod of his head (into G's shoulder) at the very end of the episode is meant, I think, to convey. I don't think it's about any lingering misgivings of Christian's. I think it's really about Christian's fears of how others will react to to him, perceive him, and act toward him in the future. And, if anything, the Wolle stuff has probably recently reenforced those fears. Christian is projecting is hears rather than his own self-doubts. He really is scared of losing Gregor, not so much because of Gregor's character, but because Gregor is his last family. The line in Christian's rant about homosexuality being normal and not an illness has, I think, nothing to do with Gregor, little or nothing to do with Christian's own thinking, and much more to do with fears of the reactions of others. In terms of Gregor's reaction upon his discovery of Christian and Olli in bed, and at the door of his flat, I don't think we can stop at Gregor's words. Clearly Christian misunderstands Gregor's reaction. Certainly he's seeing this through his expectations and fears. But we also need to look to Gregor's body language and expressions. There is shock and confusion there, and that do nothing to dispel Christian's fears of rejection and judgement. They don't match the simply polite excusing of himself. Those are just a sort of social construct of etiquette. Gregor's reaction does feed into Christian's actions. They are not quite so neutral, but they are misunderstood. Certainly Christian's supposed homophobia and Gregor's comment the other day about thinking that we had gotten through all that with Christian added to Gregor's confusion and shock. He didn't expect to suddenly find Christian in bed with another man. Gregor's reaction at the door is first, and foremost, trying to make sense of what seems an odd and bizarre bundle of facts he knows or thought he knew. And he's almost certainly already upset with Christian for not telling him about this. Christian's hostile demeanor (which comes from his fears and his expectations that Gregor will react badly) makes matters worse. And then during this rant he comes to think that Christian apparently regards him as some sort of a-hole. Then Christian doesn't seem interested in a conversation because he's angry and not letting Gregor speak. Is it any wonder that Gregor closes the door on him? Is it any wonder that Gregor simply wonders if Christian is done? Conversation, which he tried to have, seems of no use. Christian isn't interested in it. Where you are quite correct is that I think Gregor, with Olli's help, comes to understand that his role includes being patient with Christian. And I do think that Christian realizes, as Gregor speaks to him, that he needs to be patient too. It's really a nice coming together. Poignant. Your comment that you don't mean to say that Christian is still a closet-homophobe does make me wonder about timeline here. Christian has long been concerned with Gregor's reaction. As Christian become more comfortable with the relationship, and the idea of the relationship, I think he's really left all of that behind him. I don't think he's still fighting last misgivings. But the vision, the expectation, the fear of how Gregor would react might still be swimming back there. If it is indeed a projection of misgivings about being in a gay relationship, it's misgivings from back then perpetuated by his still present fears of losing his brother. But, still that residual demon has more to do with fears of the reaction of others, than his own doubts and questions about himself and his love for Olli.
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 13, 2008 22:23:02 GMT -5
I think the key observation is that Christian lectures to Gregor what Christian needs, himself, to be convinced of. We--just as would the other characters of the story, who have heard anything that Gregor's actually said on the subject--recognize that the 'lecture' is misdirected. I suppose what puzzles me slightly then is why is this "angry tirade" only directed at Gregor? Christian also - has heard as much as we have heard about Gregor's stance on homosexuality. I think he desperately needs Gregor's acceptance - but the fear of that not happening was greater than his ability to face the possibility of it being OK. We've already seen this a number of times with Christian... He tried to cling on to Coco when he realised he was attracted to Olli. When he realised it was Olli he'd been chatting to on the internet about his feelings for "Olli" he immediately backtracked and tried to deny it. He didn't apply to college because he assumed he wouldn't get in with a prison record. I agree, there probably was an element of this - but I think this "demon" would have manifested itself towards many more people than "just" Gregor. Although the Mann brothers quite clearly love each other as brothers do - I don't think they are "close" in terms of really knowing or understanding each other. Gregor and Christian both had very different views on thier own father - something that has caused conflict between them in the past. Christian idolised his father, while Gregor had no time for him - this, I think, is something that Christian still does not fully understand or comprehend. If he could despise his own father - then maybe he could despise his own brother too? We also see this reversed from Gregor i.e. Gregor was hurt by the realisation that Christian didn't trust him. Which is why, I think, Christian's reaction to Gregor is less about his own demons amd more about the relationship he has with his brother. I think the examples you give make the point that, primarily, Christian wrestles with himself but projects his fears / the feelings he fears onto others--turning them into adversaries of sorts--whether it be Olli, college admissions, or Gregor. Christian's sentimentality about his father, is a parallel example--the other side of coin. Here it's a matter of idealizing a relationship--that apparently was far from ideal--such that he can draw courage from it. Once again, Christian's projecting his own feelings onto another--and aptness be damned! You ask, why project the fear of rejection over homosexuality onto Gregor in particular? Because this gives the struggle gravitas. In a way, say, that projecting it onto Miriam wouldn't. For Christian's struggle to be meaningful, he has to be convinced that a great deal is at stake. Of course, we understand that there is. But we've listened to Gregor on the subject and so--unless we suspect that the writers shall suddenly adopt glaring, American-soap-opera-style character inconsistencies--we're convinced we know how Gregor's going to react. That Christian is the only one who doesn't just has to--it seems to me--reflect that this is his intra-personal struggle--not an inter-personal one. I want to say: I've no interest in condemning Christian's conduct. I suspect I'm as enamored of him as anyone here--and as much on account of his weaknesses as in spite of them. But it does seem to me that the writers--and I think very astutely--do consistently show his objective judgment to be over-shadowed by his various inner demons--but because he's a good soul and committed to being good, with the help of others, like Olli, who are relaxed about who and "what" they are--he eventually gets things into 'perspective'.
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 13, 2008 22:47:09 GMT -5
Your comment that you don't mean to say that Christian is still a closet-homophobe does make me wonder about timeline here. Christian has long been concerned with Gregor's reaction. As Christian become more comfortable with the relationship, and the idea of the relationship, I think he's really left all of that behind him. I don't think he's still fighting last misgivings. But the vision, the expectation, the fear of how Gregor would react might still be swimming back there. If it is indeed a projection of misgivings about being in a gay relationship, it's misgivings from back then perpetuated by his still present fears of losing his brother. But, still that residual demon has more to do with fears of the reaction of others, than his own doubts and questions about himself and his love for Olli. I appreciate what you say, and I wonder if, beyond a certain point and concerning certain matters, it's even possible to distinguish. Consider the 'conversation' between Christian and his father. Christian says he's disappointed his father by being "unsuccessful" and "gay". Is it his father he's disappointed? In the practical sense, we would have to say that this is no longer a possibility. But psychologically it's possible because the paternal 'demon' resides in Christian's mind and disapproves. Certainly, as you say, it's quite reasonable to be fearful of real, frightening things and of real danger. But the father is a figment, and I guess I still think that Gregor the Terrible was too. It's human nature to internalize the imagined expectations of others--individual others and society as a whole. And those internalizations become 'actors' in an internal struggle when there's a difference between those expectations and one's own desires. But: in some cases, complying with those expectations is 'one's own desire' too--and then one might well be said to be 'conflicted'.
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Post by psionycx on Jun 13, 2008 23:12:18 GMT -5
Is it his father who's disappointed? In the practical sense, we would have to say that this is no longer a possibility. But psychologically it's possible because the paternal 'demon' resides in Christian's mind and disapproves. That's a very eloquent way to put it and I think you're right. Christian has a somewhat rosy, younger-son's view of his father. Unlike Gregor who as the eldest had to deal with more of the harsh reality. We've seen Christian and Gregor fight over this before. Indeed, it's rather ironic all told because the main reason Christian is behind in life at all is because of the prison sentence that he served in his father's stead. That is the root of a lot of his later problems. Yet he still wishes he could have done better to make his father proud. Ironically, all told he's actually very worthy of respect. He's a really good man, loyal, loving and he's motivated and works hard. Yet still he feels inadequate. But I think that Gregor was Christian's psychological proxy for his father, hence the dream. Gregor would have never denounced Christian based on him doing something that would disappoint their father. Gregor doesn't share Christian's idealized view of him. But Gregor often behaves paternally towards Christian and so I think Christian subconsciously may blur the line between them a bit. Really, he was expecting the reaction that would have likely come from his father to come from Gregor instead.
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 13, 2008 23:38:13 GMT -5
But I think that Gregor was Christian's psychological proxy for his father, hence the dream. Gregor would have never denounced Christian based on him doing something that would disappoint their father. Gregor doesn't share Christian's idealized view of him. But Gregor often behaves paternally towards Christian and so I think Christian subconsciously may blur the line between them a bit. Really, he was expecting the reaction that would have likely come from his father to come from Gregor instead. Yes, I think you've got it, Ollie! err psionycx. Else the dream would have been the father disapproving 'in person', right? (On the other hand, maybe the guy who played the father is no longer available for 'cameo' appearances . . . )
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 14, 2008 0:25:01 GMT -5
Incidentally: I think Olli's line "Yes, it is indeed what it appears to be," is quite fine, such a refreshing change from his super-lame martial arts 'explanation' when Christian and Lisa walked in on him and Timo in like situation.
And certainly from Christian's 'performance' when Wolle came upon him and Olli . . .
I think Olli was very concerned to forestall any attempt by Christian to construe the situation as different from what it clearly was--to lie, in a word--since that would have made relations with Gregor rather worse.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 14, 2008 1:05:11 GMT -5
It seems fairly obvious for me that those irrational demons are still there. Christian suppresses them because it is wrong to thing that way, Christian is too honorable to think that way, Christian knows the way he is supposed to act. But the demons are still there (his scene about how his father would be disappointed that his son is gay and a loser).
I'll frankly admit that while I think that Christian and his father probably had a very emotionally close relationship, I buy much more into Gregor's version of reality. Hence, it seems obvious to me that Christian is projecting things that are clearly completely off base, for Gregor's personality, for his father's personality (just like when he suggested that Lisa was deeply hurt over finding Olli wich a guy even though Lisa knew Olli for just a day at this point). The over the top interpretations have to come from somewhere and it seems pretty obvious that they come from Christian himself.
I don't think that Christian is just building up general obstacles in his mind, the obstacles he builds up at the moment strike me as highly specific. Just take the convo where Christian uses his father as an excuse for thinking about taking steroids. Taking steroids is completely against Christian's personal ethos and at the same way there is no way that I buy that his father would want him to do something that is damaging to his health, something against his personal ethos, want him to do something that would be cheating in a competition or would care whether Christian becomes a boxer in three weeks or takes three years. It's true that we only "met" the already reformed version of Christian's father, but even earlier I have a hard time picturing that he was ever a Col. Psycho heavily morally authoritative type.
So, where does this drive come from when it can't really come from their father? It's gonna come from those "demons" inside Christian.
I actually don't think that Wolle and Axel being homophobic did much to increase Christian's insecurities because they are so obviously evil they actually appeal to Chritian's moral/honor/hero side and just encourage him to stand up more for his relationship.
I think Christian's unuttered fears do go more into the direction of him being afraid about how people will see him once they know, that he will no longer fill the manly ideal (hence maybe the sudden drive towards the manly sport boxing and the almost obsessive need to exceed at it). I don't think that it is necessarily all clear cut though. There isn't just one motivation for what Christian does, it's a bundle of a whole bunch of them.
Spoiler. I'm quite curious about the scene where it says that Christian changes his [negative] stance on having a beard somewhat when he finally finds acceptance by Axel after Axel thinks Christian has a girlfriend.
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Post by psionycx on Jun 14, 2008 1:25:03 GMT -5
Yes, I think you've got it, Ollie! err psionycx. Else the dream would have been the father disapproving 'in person', right? (On the other hand, maybe the guy who played the father is no longer available for 'cameo' appearances . . . ) Well Christian's not delusional. The dream was a realistic one rather than a surreal one, and hence Gregor had to be the one to express their father's imagined disapproval in it. Father/son dynamics can get bizarre (just look at Noah and Col Pervy on ATWT). It's not unreasonable for Christian to believe that his father would disapprove of his being in a relationship with another man. Most men of his father's generation probably would express at least some upset/disapproval. That Gregor has been having a trifle erratically lately doesn't help. Christian is used to him being a the responsible big brother I expect. Gregor's recent crusade to avenge himself on the female population has put some strain on their relationship, especially since Christian has been concealing the fact that he doesn't want another girlfriend. Fortunately Christian, drama queen that he is, sometimes blows things out of proportion and they're not as bad as he may think. That's one of the reasons Olli is such a good partner for him.
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Post by mattnjacob on Jun 14, 2008 1:25:05 GMT -5
Solve a mystery please for my bf and me. What is that blue pitcher? Is that an electric tea pot or is it just a water filtered pitcher?? I realize we're probably watching the video too many times that we are actually paying attention to such small things, but we're curious. When she pours the water in the mugs she doesn't filter out the leaves if it's for tea. Or is it just a coffee pot? But then it looks like the coffee pot is right there in front of her.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 14, 2008 1:31:36 GMT -5
My guess it's that it's an insolated coffee pot. You brew the coffee and pour it into this insolated coffee pot with a screw on lid that keeps the coffee warmer for a longer period of time.
Well, let's just say that I think Christian has some unique capabilities for delusion and self-delusion. Like him always suspecting a conspiracy first (when he found out that Olli was his chat partner). Like him kidding himself about his motives (defending his jealousy of Olli and the club guy as wanting to protect Olli, any of the "it was just an experiment/I don't really want this" lies, telling himself his dad would have wanted him to take steroids to make the fight).
The dream was deeply unrealistic alone because Gregor is pretty much the last person who would ever cite their father in an argument considering Gregor's own conflicted history with their father. But Christian just likes to tweak reality to suit his opinions. And occasionally needs a bit of a kick to snap out of it.
But since the conversation with Gregor didn't include a reality check in regards to how Christian's father realistically would have felt about his son having a boyfriend is to me a sign that it's bound to come up again in the future at one point. Because it was established but not resolved.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Jun 14, 2008 1:38:57 GMT -5
I thought the blue pot is an insulated carafe that they use for coffee. Olli was using it the other day, too.
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bugchicklv
New Member
Boys Will Do Boys (YAY!)
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Post by bugchicklv on Jun 14, 2008 1:43:05 GMT -5
...but for the love of God, leave me the happy-trail. Please! That and some lean, toned hips peeking out above the waist on a pair of low-rise jeans are quite possibly the sexiest things (below the neck) on a man. Oh - I am soooo with you on this Bugchickly not getting this manscaping thing at all OT ALERT The happy trail makes this camper happy. But PUHLEASE... the low-rise jeans? You never saw the plumber who came to fix the tub... that's a trail (for lack of a better word - need your help here sheepie) any trekking fan will gladly steer clear of. If you notice I was sure to put the phrase "lean, toned hips" in there to disqualify the not-so-hot plumber and his ass-crack of doom. However, if YOU saw the one that came to caulk my tub (not a euphemism. Hell, I wish!) then you'd DEFINITELY understand why he is NOT disqualified. Holy hell. I kept him there for over an hour asking him to check ANYTHING that I thought might be plumbing related, just to see that BEAUTIFUL butt-cleavage (he could have been one of Janice's hot-bod-boys, seriously). *fans self* This may be the only time I utter this phrase, but thank heavens for apartment living. Maintenance is all covered. (Of course, I keep having to tell myself it is NOT ok to deliberately break something just so he'd have to come back...) But to keep this post on topic (and not incur the wrath of a certain painted-faced animation): The blue thing is indeed an insulated carafe. When I worked at IHOP and a couple of other restaurants that served coffee we would fill those and leave them on the table so as not to have to return 14 million times...but only for breakfast. It seemed to be the only time the customers would run us ragged (and thus kept us from getting the food out while it was still warm, and from taking other orders or seating other guests). And if you're wondering why they don't just use the coffee pot it was brewed in, well--it would scorch their table top and (if they weren't paying attention--hello, Christian with the sugar dish) someone could accidentally burn themselves.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 14, 2008 1:49:52 GMT -5
I thought the blue pot is an insulated carafe that they use for coffee. Olli was using it the other day, too. I'm like, oh man, don't tell me that the Americans don't have those either.
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bugchicklv
New Member
Boys Will Do Boys (YAY!)
Posts: 121
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Post by bugchicklv on Jun 14, 2008 1:56:16 GMT -5
I thought the blue pot is an insulated carafe that they use for coffee. Olli was using it the other day, too. I'm like, oh man, don't tell me that the Americans don't have those either. We do. Look up. (Edit added while you replied to that.)
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 14, 2008 2:04:53 GMT -5
Ah, good, I feared it might be another one of those "green" things we Europeans do ;D
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mgh48
Junior Member
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Post by mgh48 on Jun 14, 2008 2:18:36 GMT -5
I thought the blue pot is an insulated carafe that they use for coffee. Olli was using it the other day, too. I'm like, oh man, don't tell me that the Americans don't have those either. We do; but it's annoying as hell to use them. I'd rather take a beating with staves than have to wait any longer than I do for my coffee. ;D As for your discussion on Christian. What we have here is a dichotomy which we are tending to overlook, IMO. Christian is a younger man than Oli. I'm not really sure if Thore is trying to play him as his own age or slightly older. Regardless, young men of that age are overcome by emotion and a deep rooted feeling that their own perspective is the ONLY one there is. So, he knows this much: he is physically attracted to Oliver; he is emotionally wound-up with Oliver; he cannot stand hiding, dishonesty or disloyalty---he will not tolerate any of this for long. When it comes to the point of no return, he will act to be honest and stand up for what he feels is right. Regardless of the consequences. Only the fear of losing his brother kept him silent for so long. So, losing his brother. He lost everyone else in his family and so, feels that it's also possible to lose his brother. Irrational? Yep. But as a young man having gone through what he has endured, this is not outside the realm of possibilities, neh? When you are this young, and a man, you cannot help but feel that your own feelings are more important, more vital and more correct than anyone else's. It is only later in life that you realize most of these feelings are grossly exaggerated and doomed to incorrectness. Oliver is so wise, so calm, so experienced. It's no surprise he knows how to handle this entire situation. Even his faltering babbling to Gregor when he walks in on them is feigned, IMO. He's trying to coddle Christian's fears while at the same time, accommodating Gregor's shock and his own sense of forthrightness. Why should he prevaricate or dissemble? He knows how Christian feels about him (though Chris has YET TO SAY IT TO HIS FACE) and he knows that it was Christian who finally came to him and declared his feelings and wanted the relationship. So, he would never cave in to typical stereotyped reactions. Why should he? Christian's hang-up mit sein Vater. Ugh. I know the feeling. Been there, done that. You may not realize, all of you, just how strange a relationship with an abusive father is for a young man. It's a love + hate thing. Sometimes, the hate can be turned inwards. Sometimes, it goes outwards. But, it's eternally complex. I suspect it's even much more complex than the relationship women feel towards their Mothers. It can be cold, stark, dissolving, delusional, empathic and very much destructive if you cannot find a way out of it. Finding a way out of it is rare. Geoff
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
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Post by restenergy on Jun 14, 2008 2:21:41 GMT -5
Well, let's just say that I think Christian has some unique capabilities for delusion and self-delusion. Like him always suspecting a conspiracy first (when he found out that Olli was his chat partner). Like him kidding himself about his motives (defending his jealousy of Olli and the club guy as wanting to protect Olli, any of the "it was just an experiment/I don't really want this" lies, telling himself his dad would have wanted him to take steroids to make the fight). I don't know about Christian having unique capabilities for delusion and self-delusion. I think that it's a remarkably common trait, actually. Anyway, I have some quibbles with your examples here. I think Christian's first reaction to discovering that Olli was his chat partner was a much more normal and general horror of finding out you'd been pouring your heart out to this person about your feelings about that very person. But when he went out to the living room and heard Olli talking to Olivia, he jumped to conclusions. At least that's the way I've seen that clip. I'm not sure that defending his jealousy at the club is purely self-delusion. It seems that it's a strange mixture of self-delusion and conscious cover-up. His statement to Olli that it was just an experiment has always struck me as a very conscious lie (even though Christian very much values honesty, he's feeling rather conflicted at the time), and not in any way a delusion. The steroid thing is definitely a rationalization of some sort, and it seems just as probably that it is self-delusional as anything else. Yet it is in a dream. I'm not sure that we can speak of Christian as an actor therein, especially as a kind of tweak of reality. The dream is deeply unrealistic for the reason you've stated, but also because Gregor really wouldn't react that way himself. And I don't disagree with you that Christian likes to tweak reality to suit his opinions and purposes. I just have a hard time ascribing that sort of action within a dream.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 14, 2008 2:33:57 GMT -5
Of course Christian had a right to be horrified, but the way he lashed out was very typical Christian. I mirrored the freakout when he found out that Coco had written him letters "OMG, you wrote letters that gave me great comfort and happiness in jail. YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY EVIL WE CAN NEVER BE FRIENDS AGAIN AND I BET YOU WERE LAUGHING BEHIND MY BACK THE ENTIRE TIME".
(actually this thinking that people are trying to verarschen him and are secretly mocking him seems to be a particular fear/obsession of his)
Well, let's just say I think he is lucky that he is dating a former psych student. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say that Christian is actually insane, at least not more insane than your average soap character; just that he has his own quircks and fallacies. This "my way or the highway" attitude, even when there is evidence to the contrary and people are telling him he is wrong is pretty typical. To his credit, he is capable of eventually listening. It's just not his first instinct.
The problem with the daddy issues is that at the moment they run unopposed (or rather opposed only by Christian's own morality) because he hasn't talked to either Olli or Gregor about them.
And his father is a particularly sore spot for him and he has had his share of "take your head out of the sand" discussions about him with Gregor.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Jun 14, 2008 2:51:24 GMT -5
Of course Christian had a right to be horrified, but the way he lashed out was very typical Christian. Indeed he did. This pattern seems particular common for Mr. Does-Not-Freak-Out. He does have is own quirks and fallacies in his thinking and reacting. I really don't disagree with that one bit. My quibble (and it really is just a quibble) is that I'm not sure that the examples of finding out he was chatting with Olli, the jealousy at the club, the statement that he was just experimenting and it wasn't for him, are pointing at a tendency to be (slightly) self-deluded. At least, I don't think Christian is any more deluded than many men in his position. Not a few gay or bisexual men (and I imagine the same goes for women) have discovered the amazing powers of denial and self-delusion as they come to terms with their sexuality. I hope no one reads that wrong. It's a concept I'm still working on trying to describe, years after I went through it myself. (I could start using concepts from philosopher Paul Ricoeur, but that'll get too deep and technical, and I'm already blathering on too much. )
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