mgh48
Junior Member
Posts: 368
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Post by mgh48 on Jun 14, 2008 2:56:00 GMT -5
Of course Christian had a right to be horrified, but the way he lashed out was very typical Christian. I mirrored the freakout when he found out that Coco had written him letters "OMG, you wrote letters that gave me great comfort and happiness in jail. YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY EVIL WE CAN NEVER BE FRIENDS AGAIN AND I BET YOU WERE LAUGHING BEHIND MY BACK THE ENTIRE TIME". (actually this thinking that people are trying to verarschen him and are secretly mocking him seems to be a particular fear/obsession of his) Well, let's just say I think he is lucky that he is dating a former psych student. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say that Christian is actually insane, at least not more insane than your average soap character; just that he has his own quircks and fallacies. This "my way or the highway" attitude, even when there is evidence to the contrary and people are telling him he is wrong is pretty typical. To his credit, he is capable of eventually listening. It's just not his first instinct. The problem with the daddy issues is that at the moment they run unopposed (or rather opposed only by Christian's own morality) because he hasn't talked to either Olli or Gregor about them. And his father is a particularly sore spot for him and he has had his share of "take your head out of the sand" discussions about him with Gregor. I don't know Thore's background, his own personal story, lola---but from what I'm seeing and knowing my last BF who was similar in age to Oli and Chris as I was to him, I can offer the following: Younger men, as I've said, tend to view their own emotions and conclusions as 'paramount'. No one else, in the entire world, is feeling or experiencing life as they are. That's Christian's gestalt. Oliver is different: he's older and wiser and has had tempering. Dealing with an abusive father is not an easy thing. I know women are stronger in many, many ways than men---though most of us will never admit it. What overcomes us, women overcome with grim determination. If Thore is acting on this level (more likely the writers behind it), then he should be praised and thanked. Gregor knows the reality, Christian has yet to see it. Geoff
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Post by ivaniv on Jun 14, 2008 3:00:07 GMT -5
When caught with Timo Olli said "Timo should show you that karate(?) move, too. I didn't get laid that quickly in a long time." I giggled and thought I should remember that one ;D Now again he tries to lighten up a dense atmosphere when he says "It is exactly what it looks like." Because it's exact opposite what people say in these situations and he also makes a definitive interpretation of the scene in the case Christian would try to put some spin on it. I think he might be a bit afraid of that. He may be a bit blunt judging by Christian's reaction, but that might have been best for him. I think Gregor was relatively fine with the situation till the moment he realised how Christian saw him, when he started throwing 21st century and no illness in his face. If Christian just shut up he'd tell him it's OK, he tried twice. And his reaction was foreshadowed in the previous episode when he told Christian after he refused him as his promoter "You do not trust your own brother?" I had a feeling this would come back and bite Christian in the arse. I also think it was good there was no further dialog between Olli and Gregor. We knew enough to fill the gaps. He told him about Christian being afraid losing him and that he refused the promoter deal, because he did not want to lie to Gregor like he had to to the Schweinehund ;D
ETA: as for the daddy issues, it felt to me that Christian was saying "goodbye" in a way. That the father would probably want something else, but Christian can't have it like that anymore. Whatever would his father say.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 14, 2008 3:38:13 GMT -5
It's a real pity that the whole story of Gregor, Christian and their father still has a lot of blank spots.
For example, I always got the impression that he was more neglectful than physically abusive. That it was more the breaking promises type of pain he caused rather than being a bastard to Gregor and Christian's face. (or that Gregor got more of it, considering his statement about how his father made him lie to their mom to cover for dad)
I can also buy that maybe their father just got along better with Christian than he did with Gregor if Christian was more open and Gregor was more sullen. And that they just related to each other more.
So I can see the conflict between Gregor and Christian over the dad being at least somewhat a honest difference of opinion. Where Gregor thinks that the bad things their father did vastly overpower the times he was nice. While Christian maybe saw more of the nice side and says he knows his father was flawed, but to him the good things count. Though from the way those scenes played out, I always got the impression that a good dose of idolizing was in it too. That maybe Christian's mind new that gambling and lying was bad, but his heart wouldn't let him think ill of his father. Because he thinks that some things, like family love or loyalty should just count more than anything.
While something like him having a particular idea about how Gregor react and not listening to all the people who think differently and not looking at the evidence of how Gregor behaved in the past, is not a question of having different values, but is more akin to just getting it wrong.
Meanwhile, things like him getting upset over Coco writing letters to him under a different name are a mixture. On one hand it is a difference in values (Christian values honesty higher than most people around him), but it also has an element of getting things wrong (implying she had sinister motives).
I think Christian has particular morals and ideas about how the world is supposed to work and he regularly clashes with people not living up to these expectations of his. And he has gotten smart enough to make allowances for that because people fail but are still human. (see: the majority of his arguments with Coco)
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neand48
Full Member
'It isn't about who has the power or who doesn't, but the power you share when you love each other.'
Posts: 1,154
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Post by neand48 on Jun 14, 2008 7:30:01 GMT -5
roddieb more of the same please. Brilliant. I think a number of us have some personnal reason(s) to relate to Christian's reaction.
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 14, 2008 8:07:42 GMT -5
Christian's hang-up mit sein Vater. Ugh. I know the feeling. Been there, done that. You may not realize, all of you, just how strange a relationship with an abusive father is for a young man. It's a love + hate thing. Sometimes, the hate can be turned inwards. Sometimes, it goes outwards. But, it's eternally complex. I suspect it's even much more complex than the relationship women feel towards their Mothers. It can be cold, stark, dissolving, delusional, empathic and very much destructive if you cannot find a way out of it. Finding a way out of it is rare. Yes, a child--particular a very young child--is virtually defenseless. So an abusive--or even just extremely demanding and relentlessly critical--parent often induces a desperate need to please in the child--desperate because the harder the child tries, the worse he's made to feel he fails--since the core problem is the parent's frustration, unhappiness with life in general, and the child, of course, cannot solve that. This awful paradigm informs the child's personality, induces a morbid sensitivity to the opinions and expectations--real or imagined, and if real, often exaggerated--of others, individuals and collectively. Which results in frustration, unhappines that often perpetuate the behavior into the next generation . . . But some children 'best it', come out of it exceptionally strong and self-confident. It depends on temperament -- so Christian might be, approximately, an example of the one, Gregor the other. However--and similarly as Lola talks about--I don't have a clear idea of how we're supposed to understand the dynamics / dysfunctionality of the Mann household while G & C were growing up -- whether the father was just given to terrific irresponsibility because of his gambling addiction, or if he was also an 'emotional tyrant'. In any case, I think the writers' characterizations are well realized, nicely nuanced.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 14, 2008 8:44:38 GMT -5
It kinda seems hard to me to sort of connect the emotional tyrant with the very broken and very contrite man who actually showed up on VL. But you never know I guess and even tyrants can reform. However, even in the flashback from before Christian went to jail where Christian uncovers that his dad is the robber there seems to be shock and shame that his son would see him like this. He doesn't raise his voice once even when Gregor is accusing him. And both Christian and Gregor talk harshly to him. The theme seems to be neglect more so than abuse. (Gregor accusing their father of always trying to pull the same thing when their dad says that he's here to make up for things, Gregor suspecting that he is only there because he wants money, etc)
Which is why I tend to picture him more as a leech and a loser who broke his promises and disappointed Gregor rather than a tyrant. But yes we pretty much don't know.
I wonder, do you figure there would be interest to get the clips that deal with Gregor and Christian's father subtitled even though they don't have any Christian and Olli?
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neand48
Full Member
'It isn't about who has the power or who doesn't, but the power you share when you love each other.'
Posts: 1,154
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Post by neand48 on Jun 14, 2008 9:04:15 GMT -5
Which is why I tend to picture him more as a leech and a loser who broke his promises and disappointed Gregor rather than a tyrant. But yes we pretty much don't know. If I'm not mistaken, there were a couple of clips that seemed to indicate that such was the case, weren't there? Excellent idea...
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Post by mattnjacob on Jun 14, 2008 9:10:55 GMT -5
I wonder, do you figure there would be interest to get the clips that deal with Gregor and Christian's father subtitled even though they don't have any Christian and Olli? I wish! I'd love to see the whole show with English subtitles. I wish the people behind VL would sell a weekly subscription on iTunes. I'd totally buy it. I also love the character of Charlie. I think she is a magnificent woman and I wish she was more involved with Ollian so I could see her more. About the blue carafe. I thought that maybe that is what it was...but then I'm not really familiar with them and I thought "Why would she use something like that when 3 people would probably take a full pot of coffee?" Anyway...mystery solved. Thanks all.
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neand48
Full Member
'It isn't about who has the power or who doesn't, but the power you share when you love each other.'
Posts: 1,154
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Post by neand48 on Jun 14, 2008 9:27:01 GMT -5
BTW mattnjacob, love your signature(?) (you know... the stuff at the bottom of your posts).
re: charlie she strikes me as a no-nonsense kind of person. Does she know about O&C?
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Post by mattnjacob on Jun 14, 2008 9:38:40 GMT -5
BTW mattnjacob, love your signature(?) (you know... the stuff at the bottom of your posts). re: charlie she strikes me as a no-nonsense kind of person. Does she know about O&C? Thanks. I'm thinking about making it smaller but I want the pics to be clear. re: Charlie: You made me pause. I think she knows. There was the scene at the gym where she stops Olli from going into the ring to comfort Christian after losing his fight. But then I guess she could have just been stopping him thinking Olli (being a caring person) was going to comfort his friend. However...I have a problem thinking Olivia knows and she didn't spill it to Charlie. I think she knows. Well, you've given me an excuse to watch the whole playlist over again Not that I need an excuse.
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Post by jsg03jd on Jun 14, 2008 10:56:40 GMT -5
Is there a screen cap of Olli holding the spoon as if it were a warning sign to Judith for her to shut up? I find that incredible scene w/ Jo giving Katrin the death stare so hilarious.
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Post by psionycx on Jun 14, 2008 14:45:06 GMT -5
It wasn't my impression from the backstory I've seen and read here that Wolfgang Mann was an abusive father either physically or emotionally. The way I've been interpreting it he was merely a rather unreliable person.
Gregor, being older, probably would have felt this more because it would have compelled him to grow up a bit faster and perhaps made him cynical. Christian was the younger brother and was maybe more insulated from the full extent of their families problems at least early on. Gregor tends to dwell on the bad memories, while Christian tends to dwell on the good ones (like going camping).
In all likelihood Wolfgang was not blind to his own flaws and wanted his sons to grow up to be better, more successful men than him. All he had to give them was encouragement since he had little else I guess.
Gregor is more practical, as the older son, and is more concerned about actually getting by in life than in trying to be successful because he thinks it would have made his father proud. But Christian on the other hand is looking to become who he thinks his father would have wanted him to be.
This is where Olli and Gregor are on the same page, because they both want Christian to succeed and be happy for his own sake, not for his father's. Christian is only just learning to measure his self-worth against himself and not against others expectations. For example, he seems a little overwhelmed that Olli thinks he's somebody special. Coco thought he was a good boyfriend generally but I don't think that she made him feel special.
Christian is slowly learning to overcome what are really self-doubt issues, largely with Olli's help. He was too scared to send in his college application and face rejection so Olli had to intervene. Olli and Gregor have been helping him with the boxing. Slowly he's starting to learn more of a sense of self-worth from the appreciation of living people and not his dead father.
That's part of what I got from the rant in the hall. Christian has found love and was defensive because even though it wasn't what Wolfgang would have expected or wanted for him, it makes him feel good and he wants to defend it. He just miscalculated turning Gregor into a stand-in for his father and his imagined disapproval.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 14, 2008 15:04:25 GMT -5
I'm going over some of the older clips of Christian and Gregor and there are some interesting tidbits.
One of the first things that Gregor accuses his father of is that he ripped apart their family. He also lashes out when Wolfgang says that things were hard for them after C&G's mother died to not dare and blame that on mother. Maybe their father's actions in regards to money were really hard on their mother and Gregor as the older one noticed it while Christian as the younger one was oblivious to it.
At one point Gregor tells a story to Sarah that his father threw out Gregor's favorite toy train because it annoyed him. He also tells the story how his father bought Gregor a toy helicopter when Gregor's best friend moved away and told him to imagine to fly in that helicopter to see his friend so Bavaria, the place the friend moved to, wouldn't seem to far away.
Incidentally what Gregor tells Sarah is that he and Christian worked their asses off for their father and their father never appreciated it/Gregor felt he never showed them that he loved them.
One thing that is really interesting is the C&G interaction when Christian gets accused of stealing money. Nico shows up at Gregor's place looking for Christian and tells him what happened. Gregor immediately says that he can't imagine that Christian did it. Later Christian comes home and they start arguing in their typical Gregor and Christian way where they both misunderstand each other and assume the worst. Gregor eventually asks Christian if he took the money because he knows it was Christian's plan to open his own shop and he needed start up money. Christian is offended, grabs his stuff and immediately wants to leave town. Downstairs he runs into his father. His father wants to tell Gregor the truth so he'll understand better. Christian says that even his own brother thought he was guilty, that Gregor doesn't trust him and that there is no point in tell him anyway because Gregor wouldn't belive them anyway and then storms off.
Struck me as rather similar, because again lack of trust is a major topic and again Christian is very sure in predicting that Gregor will react negatively.
Heh, I also have a lot of fondness for a scene where Gregor comes home after finding out that Sarah cheated on him. Christian comes across him in the hallway and seeing Gregor's face and the bruises on his hand (from punching Leonard) says "Hey you look like shit". Bwahahahah. Guys.
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Post by psionycx on Jun 14, 2008 15:28:43 GMT -5
Given their past history Christian and Gregor may not have been on as good terms growing up as they are now.
I can certainly relate. My childhood was just as afflicted by dysfunctional parents and a sister who was sufficiently older that we were not on the best terms in the face of common adversity. Indeed, we really handled our parents differently and in fact she and our father avoided each other studiously while I spent much more time with him.
So the Gregor and Christian might have a similar situation. Gregor, like my sister, was less inclined to be forgiving of their father's failings. He also might have resented Christian if he didn't share Gregor's strong negative view of their family situation.
My sister and I didn't really begin to seriously bond until we were both safely into adulthood. The same could be true of Gregor and Christian now. Maybe Christian is accustomed to Gregor having a negative outlook on things from their childhood and is only starting to adjust to a more open-minded Gregor?
For Gregor, now that their father is dead, there's no point to dwelling on the past when they have their own lives to move forward with. So he's thinking in terms of them being successful and happy on their own terms an he wants to be closer with Christian than maybe he was in their youth.
That's why he was really upset these last two episodes. Christian being in a relationship with Olli, shocking as it was, didn't upset him. What upset him was that Christian had fallen in love and hadn't told him about it. Christian assumed he wouldn't understand (again perhaps blurring the line between him and Wolfgang) and kept his relationship a secret. That Christian didn't trust him hurt, because Gregor really wants to be close.
Damn this show has good writing for a soap!
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
Posts: 1,667
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Post by restenergy on Jun 14, 2008 15:32:14 GMT -5
My interpretation about Christian throwing 21st century and no illness in Gregor's face was quite appropriate, at least for me. There's a message there. I like to think that writers try to connect with their viewing audience when writing some story lines, especially sensitive ones (again, my own thoughts here). Think about your own personal situation. How many of us are "out" and how many of us still "closeted"? Many of us remain closeted or have waited a long time before coming out because of fear, the same fear Christian had about being rejected by his brother/family. I have an older brother, whom I would consider close to, but I've never told him I'm gay, simply because I know or think I know how he will react. I told my younger brother several years ago and he put his arms around me, hugged me, kissed me and said, "I love you no matter who you are with." Not quite the words Gregor said to Christian but pretty close. I choked up and got all teary eyed when Gregor said something similar to Christian. *drum roll, please* I think the writers had Christian go off on Gregor the way he did was because this is the way it is in real life so many times and the writers wanted to connect with their audience. Both, to show that gay people fear rejection when coming out to family and loved ones and to show that straight people don't always understand homosexuality (pre 21st century), and to show that some do (the 21 century way). I wonder what the writers would think if they could read all our interpretations about any particular scene. Would they laugh and say, "did we write that?" Or, "is that what we were trying to say?" Just my 2 cents here. *goes back sipping more coffee*Thank you for your wonderful post, Roddieb. I think you have hit upon something here. Stories like this, with great variety in details and situations but also similarities in theme and concerns, get played out in the lives of many. I've not told my family. I'm not fearful of rejection. It's just hard. And now, if I have any fear, it's that they might react because I haven't told them for so long. I do think my parents and maybe my sister have figured it out. I've never dated women. I've lived with my partner for almost 8 years now. And we both picked up from the Twin Cities and moved to central Wisconsin when my partner got a job here after finishing grad school. I'm out in the rest of my life. Still, I've not told them. I appreciated the way they did this with Christian and Gregor for many reasons. Every once in a while, I run into straight folk who seem to think that coming out is no big deal anymore, or an absolute nightmare with backward relatives. It's nice to see something that recognizes the emotional and psychological complexities that often accompany coming out, and having someone come out to you. It's nice to see something that isn't terrible drama around actual bigotry or a super-easy, what's-the-issue-anyway thing. It's also a relief, after all of Christian's angst over this, and after Gregor's confusion, that things really are OK and will be OK between them. Like we thought otherwise, but still, to see it play out is gratifying and touching.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 14, 2008 15:43:55 GMT -5
psionycxOf course I don't know because it hasn't exhaustively been covered by the show or rather because I haven't seen all of the relevant episodes. My stab in the dark impression would be that Christian and Gregor liked each other well enough when they were younger but maybe weren't exactly sure what to do with each other because they are very different in a lot of areas. From big things like their opinion of their father to small things like Gregor playing indoors and Christian being little nature boy. So to me it has always felt like distance rather than dislike. They do love each other and/or are loyal to each other as family, but they don't always understand each other or see that there are limits to how much they can agree on certain things. Also, Gregor left home when he was 18 and left Christian behind, so I'm guessing this also contributed to putting some distance between them. For example, Christian wasn't aware that Gregor used to be a callboy when he joined the show and only found out on VL. Similarly, Gregor had a hard time believing that Christian would rob a gas station, but it was the only info he had and he chalked it up to desperation. And when their father shows up Gregor tears into him and blames him from causing Christian to fall into a life of crime. They also have always had their share of conflicts because they just have a very different outlook on life, for example, they often repeated true love vs. sleeping around arguments. With Christian believing in true love and Gregor being cynical and thinking it doesn't exist and insisting he'll never fall in love (and then of course he does fall in love, and then always gets screwed over again and falls back into being a cynic).
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Post by psionycx on Jun 14, 2008 15:51:53 GMT -5
Well lolaruns, I guess that since their childhood is mostly backstory rather than an onscreen issue information will always be scanty. But what you're saying sounds like what I am thinking as well.
Age difference and other factors meant that Gregor and Christian weren't joined at the hip as kids and so their adult relationship is often awkward as they try to understand where each other is coming from. They don't appear to have been close intimates growing up. Plus, given Gregor's rather adversarial attitude towards their father versus Christian's tendency to defend him it's not surprising they'd get into conflict.
But it's clear that Gregor and Christian both want to be close now. Like I said, now that their father is gone there's nothing in between them. Except perhaps for Christian's expectations.
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restenergy
Full Member
Olli forever (and Christian, too)
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Post by restenergy on Jun 14, 2008 15:54:43 GMT -5
Thanks for filling in some of the background of Christian and Gregor, Lola. It's quite interesting. It does seem that the interaction and expectations around Christian's having Olli as a boyfriend falls into a familiar pattern for him and his relationship with his brother.
One question, however, is it clear what the age difference between them is? It seems that Christian is meant to be around Thore's age, give or take a year or two. Any idea on Gregor? Is Gregor roughly the same age as Olli?
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Post by psionycx on Jun 14, 2008 15:57:50 GMT -5
I believe most family members know if another family member is gay even if the words are never uttered. Families just know. In Christian's case he never acted on gay tendencies until he met Olli. Then it all happened so fast. Nonsense! I managed to provoke intense shock with my coming out. You can't rule out the ability of people to deny things that don't fit in with their expectations. I went to considerable trouble to lay clues for my mother prior to officially coming out and it still ended up playing like a bad made-for-TV movie complete with spouted cliches and dramatic crying. Talented at rationalization as she was, Mom managed to come up with an excuse for every clue I laid out. The moral of the story being that even if they should know, it doesn't necessarily mean that they have intellectually accepted it. A lot of people, especially parents, will fill their minds with elaborate reasons why it can't be true to the point that they genuinely believe their own denial and the truth becomes something unbelievable to them.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 14, 2008 15:59:48 GMT -5
IMO, I never got the impression that Gregor held their father against Christian (particularly since Christian was a little kid). Gregor just went away because he was so sick of their father and he wanted to create something of his own (working as a callboy to fund his helicopter service). Something that I'm guessing gave Gregor self-confidence in life and was something that he needed.
Christian comes to stay with Gregor after his stay in prison and they immidately move in together. I think there is a strong sense of family loyalty even when there's sometimes a disconnect when they don't really understand each. They are supportive of what the other does in general, but they aren't really constantly in each others business and always checking up on each other.
I fully believe that the feelings are there even if the interactions can sometimes be awkward or even stand offish. Which is why even though I would have prefered a deeper heart to heart and would have been even open to crying and histronics and whatever, the relative simpless of how it was dealt with rather suits them. The feelings are there, but they aren't always very good at expressing them. Sometimes it can come off a bit gruff. (well, at least to my female sensibilities; for example this is the first time that I have a scene where Mann brothers actually hugged)
Well, in real life Andreas is 30. I once read that Gregor was supposed to be 24 when he joined VL and he joined in 2005, which would make him 27/28.
Olli was mentioned to be 23 when he was on VL which was a bit over 5 years ago. So yes, they are in the same age range. (in fact, my secret desire would be to eventually bring up how much partying Olli did or didn't do in his days between leaving the show 5 years ago and meeting Christian. Because it would be a hilarious scene if Christian had an "OMG, I'm dating the gay version of my brother!" moment)
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Post by psionycx on Jun 14, 2008 16:11:08 GMT -5
The feelings are there, but they aren't always very good at expressing them. Sometimes it can come off a bit gruff. (well, at least to my female sensibilities; for example this is the first time that I have a scene where Mann brothers actually hugged) Males, as a rule, don't go in for the kind of deep, intimate heart-to-heart conversations complete with hugging and crying that females do. Remember that males are discouraged from expressing "weakness" in most cultures. Had Gregor and Christian actually done any crying or other deep emoting it would have come across as rather unbelievable to most male viewers. What we got was actually a pretty high level of emotion for two men, even brothers. Plus, they're Germans, and German men are not renowned for displays of deep emotions. Instead they just said what they were feeling, rather than sobbing and clinging to each other and that was a breakthrough in itself. It reminds me of a scene from Will & Grace, where they had just found out that Will's father was having an affair. Will, a WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant), was going to quietly deny the whole problem and certainly not tell his mother or brothers. Grace, a New York Jew, was appalled by this. Grace: " So, you're going to deny the truth. To avoid suffering. That is so not Jewish!"
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 14, 2008 16:15:02 GMT -5
Well, as a woman, I can't help being a sucker for the emotional scenes Hence, one of my most favorites scenes is when Christian takes Gregor home after Sarah lost her baby and a teary eyes Gregor finally admits that it's killing him that he feels he can't do anything to help Sarah. I was actually bit peeved at Christian back then because he didn't really reach out to Gregor all that much in my eyes. (though he probably did by male standards by telling Gregor to just be strong for Sarah) I guess I'm just spoilt by the way Carla and Leonard always slobber all over each other. Though now that I think of it, while the male/female family relations are frequently pretty close, I can't think of any male/male relatives being that way.
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Post by sheepiefarm on Jun 14, 2008 16:25:13 GMT -5
I believe most family members know if another family member is gay even if the words are never uttered. Families just know. In Christian's case he never acted on gay tendencies until he met Olli. Then it all happened so fast. Nonsense! I managed to provoke intense shock with my coming out. You can't rule out the ability of people to deny things that don't fit in with their expectations. I went to considerable trouble to lay clues for my mother prior to officially coming out and it still ended up playing like a bad made-for-TV movie complete with spouted cliches and dramatic crying. Talented at rationalization as she was, Mom managed to come up with an excuse for every clue I laid out. The moral of the story being that even if they should know, it doesn't necessarily mean that they have intellectually accepted it. A lot of people, especially parents, will fill their minds with elaborate reasons why it can't be true to the point that they genuinely believe their own denial and the truth becomes something unbelievable to them. Not wishing to belittle the comments you have made regarding your own experiences here psionycx.... but it could be argued that as your mother managed to find excuses - the she did actually know - she just chose not to want to believe it?
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 14, 2008 16:27:35 GMT -5
The feelings are there, but they aren't always very good at expressing them. Sometimes it can come off a bit gruff. (well, at least to my female sensibilities; for example this is the first time that I have a scene where Mann brothers actually hugged) Males, as a rule, don't go in for the kind of deep, intimate heart-to-heart conversations complete with hugging and crying that females do. Remember that males are discouraged from expressing "weakness" in most cultures. Had Gregor and Christian actually done any crying or other deep emoting it would have come across as rather unbelievable to most male viewers. What we got was actually a pretty high level of emotion for two men, even brothers. I think some crying--not all out sobbing and wailing, but brief loss of base-line composure--during some of the many emotional exchanges between Olli and Christian would have enhanced the viewers' (certainly this viewer's) experience. And it's the mode of 'heightened emotionality' that might serve as contrasting alternative to argumentation / debate--the mode which is, of course, almost always used. That's kinda what I was trying to get at when I offered my much spurned 're-write' of the 'tepid-embrace-cum-English-sarcasm' scene--not that I dare bring that up again . . .
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 14, 2008 16:37:44 GMT -5
Like I said, I don't think it would have fit. I compare it to the scene where Gregor loses his unborn child and even there the emotionalism is restrained even though it is obvious that he is beside himself and Christian didn't even hug Gregor. Hence, it wouldn't have fit at all to me if they went suddenly more over the top for this scene than they did for such a serious scene.
Hence, my comments about how there has always been a bit of a distance between C&G and this scene went perfectly along with the way they just are.
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