restenergy
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Olli forever (and Christian, too)
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Post by restenergy on Jun 13, 2008 0:13:51 GMT -5
Then there is that joke that occasionally circulates amongst Norwegian Lutherans, which I think I've mentioned before, about the Norwegian farmer who loved his wife so much that he almost told her so. I identify with that Norwegian farmer (even though I am now the 2nd generation removed from the farm). I think Christian might, to some extent, as well, although he's neither a farmer nor a Norwegian. Hey restenergy, in light of what just happened in Norway, do you suppose that soon there will be a Norwegian farmer who loves his husband so much that he almost tells him so? I already know that there is at least one Norwegian farmer who loves his partner so much that he almost tells him so. I can only assume that there are others. So, I do suppose that there will soon be someone who loves his husband so much... Alas, it won't be me any time soon. Stupid laws and constitution in my state. But yeah for Norway!! Interesting idea. You might have a really gate insight there. I'll have to think about it some more.
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restenergy
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Olli forever (and Christian, too)
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Post by restenergy on Jun 13, 2008 0:40:49 GMT -5
It was cute to see Christian go off ranting about how he loves Olli and that homosexuality is not an illness. Clearly that threw Gregor even more that especially after he was the one who talked Christian down from his early homophobia towards Olli that now Christian thought he was a homophobe! Exactly. You said it much more eloquently than I, Psionycx. And, yes, it was cute to see Christian ranting this way. It would have been interesting to see this. But maybe it would have been less than riveting television for those who aren't as into these characters as we are. So, I guess allowances must be made. Thanks for the good post.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 13, 2008 1:36:05 GMT -5
I'm just deeply amazed that somebody actually remembered that Olli is bi!
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bg26
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Post by bg26 on Jun 13, 2008 2:35:48 GMT -5
Just love it when Christian finally says "Ich liebe Olli !" to Gregor, which is different from what we've heard until now: "I've fallen in love with you" or "same here"
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Post by fortheloveofgays on Jun 13, 2008 4:12:47 GMT -5
Just love it when Christian finally says "Ich liebe Olli !" to Gregor, which is different from what we've heard until now: "I've fallen in love with you" or "same here" I definitely agree and would like to add, Thore must have practiced hard on that part, anyone else notices how he visibly chokes up after he says that he loves Olli, so much emotion put into that statement, touching
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aldebaran
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Halunke, Ich liebe Dich so sehr!
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Post by aldebaran on Jun 13, 2008 8:42:31 GMT -5
Ok, I've seen the episode subbed by the wonderful Nanna (thanks, btw! ), and my eyes got wet again. For the third time. That's enough! Gosh, I'm too sensitive.. Psionycx, I find your comments always smart and interesting. I can't but just quote you: He should have pointed out that he did, in fact, attempt to tell Gregor but Gregor didn't believe him. Then again Christian's not too good with these kinds of emotional verbal discussions. I didn't understand him. He said "I wanted to tell you", but in fact he DID tell him! But perhaps he had already forgotten... It was cute to see Christian go off ranting about how he loves Olli and that homosexuality is not an illness. Clearly that threw Gregor even more that especially after he was the one who talked Christian down from his early homophobia towards Olli that now Christian thought he was a homophobe! As I already said some time ago, Gregor was so convincing that Chris believed that being gay wasn't bad at all! Let's have a try then... ;D I also would have liked to see more of their conversation. Well, I think that Chris has experimented enough, those times are over now... ;D
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Post by ivaniv on Jun 13, 2008 10:44:48 GMT -5
But the way Christian told Gregor the first time did not really count. He could have just waited a while and then told him "But seriously, Gregor, I mean it."
It would be nice though to have Gregor reference some events from the past later, like "Wait a moment, you did try to tell me, but I was such a dick and made fun of you." Or "When I found you half naked and was joking that you looked like you just had a shag, you actually did, didn't you?" ;D But I don't think it would work in yesterday's episode, it was not about such details.
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aldebaran
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Halunke, Ich liebe Dich so sehr!
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Post by aldebaran on Jun 13, 2008 10:50:50 GMT -5
It would be nice though to have Gregor reference some events from the past later, like "Wait a moment, you did try to tell me, but I was such a dick and made fun of you." Or "When I found you half naked and was joking that you looked like you just had a shag, you actually did, didn't you?" ;D But I don't think it would work in yesterday's episode, it was not about such details. Yes, I hope too that it's gonna happen someday.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 13, 2008 11:02:35 GMT -5
If you read German, I just read a fanfic right on this subject ;D Sort of a fun extended version of that scene where Gregor asks Christian a bit more questions. I have to say, my female instinct totally would have been to dig into this issue more. Ask Christian how long it has been going on, if he thinks he really loves Olli or if it's just a casual thing, if he is exclusively gay now, if he thinks that it was in him before, what he intends to do about boxing and keeping it a secret, if coping with it was really hard for him, etc... But... it would probably have been rather out of character for Gregor. Pshaw! Manns! ;D
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j9l45
Junior Member
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Post by j9l45 on Jun 13, 2008 11:57:54 GMT -5
As much as I would have liked to see more of Gregor and Olli's conversation, from a storytelling point of view I think they made the right choice. It would have covered the same basic material as the Gregor /Christian talk (i.e. Gregor felt insulted, would always be there for C, etc.) If they had done this it would have removed a great deal of the emotional impact of the G/C scene. We would have heard it all before and it would feel like a rehash instead of a revelation. It was more important to focus on C and G's interaction. Besides, I like to think the conversation with Olli helped Gregor get his thoughts in order and calm his emotions. Olli only got the rough draft, Christian got the final presentation. ;D
I also liked the length of the C/G scene (though a longer hug would have been nice.) Any more dialogue would have felt like dead weight. While I would like a scene sometime in the future where C and G have a more in depth discussion, in that particular scene it would have served to pull focus. It is so moving partly because it is so concise.
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aldebaran
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Halunke, Ich liebe Dich so sehr!
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Post by aldebaran on Jun 13, 2008 12:52:38 GMT -5
As much as I would have liked to see more of Gregor and Olli's conversation, from a storytelling point of view I think they made the right choice. It would have covered the same basic material as the Gregor /Christian talk (i.e. Gregor felt insulted, would always be there for C, etc.) If they had done this it would have removed a great deal of the emotional impact of the G/C scene. We would have heard it all before and it would feel like a rehash instead of a revelation. It was more important to focus on C and G's interaction. Besides, I like to think the conversation with Olli helped Gregor get his thoughts in order and calm his emotions. Olli only got the rough draft, Christian got the final presentation. ;D Oh, then it's true that women are cleverer than men... I didn't think about it. ;D Sorry Lola, your link leads to a website where I'm asked to sign up. Never mind.
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RJ
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Post by RJ on Jun 13, 2008 13:01:33 GMT -5
As much as I would have liked to see more of Gregor and Olli's conversation, from a storytelling point of view I think they made the right choice. It would have covered the same basic material as the Gregor /Christian talk (i.e. Gregor felt insulted, would always be there for C, etc.) If they had done this it would have removed a great deal of the emotional impact of the G/C scene. We would have heard it all before and it would feel like a rehash instead of a revelation. It was more important to focus on C and G's interaction. Besides, I like to think the conversation with Olli helped Gregor get his thoughts in order and calm his emotions. Olli only got the rough draft, Christian got the final presentation. ;D That was my thought too. Unless the viewers have been reading spoilers, up until the moment of the final Christian/Gregor scene, they still wouldn't be quite sure just what Gregor would be saying to Christian. When Gregor says "you'll always be my little brother no matter who you love", that line packs such an emotional wallop, it can't help but bring a tear to one's eye.
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aldebaran
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Halunke, Ich liebe Dich so sehr!
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Post by aldebaran on Jun 13, 2008 14:11:10 GMT -5
aldebaran, is cleverer a word in Italian? No, why? Don't tell me it's wrong because I know for sure it isn't! ;D
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 13, 2008 14:22:27 GMT -5
BTW, in the scene where Olli stops Christian from getting out of bed naked, does it sound like he is saying "Sebastian" instead of "Christian" ;D
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Post by Bonobochick on Jun 13, 2008 14:35:30 GMT -5
Oh, then it's true that women are cleverer than men... I didn't think about it. ;D Well, I am glad you're comfortable admitting that! Gah, I still have to watch the subtitled clips (cause Nanna's awesome). I've only seen the original German versions of the last 2 eps and read the transcripts.
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Post by sheepiefarm on Jun 13, 2008 17:31:45 GMT -5
...but for the love of God, leave me the happy-trail. Please! That and some lean, toned hips peeking out above the waist on a pair of low-rise jeans are quite possibly the sexiest things (below the neck) on a man. Oh - I am soooo with you on this Bugchickly not getting this manscaping thing at all
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neand48
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'It isn't about who has the power or who doesn't, but the power you share when you love each other.'
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Post by neand48 on Jun 13, 2008 18:01:29 GMT -5
...but for the love of God, leave me the happy-trail. Please! That and some lean, toned hips peeking out above the waist on a pair of low-rise jeans are quite possibly the sexiest things (below the neck) on a man. Oh - I am soooo with you on this Bugchickly not getting this manscaping thing at all OT ALERT The happy trail makes this camper happy. But PUHLEASE... the low-rise jeans? You never saw the plumber who came to fix the tub... that's a trail (for lack of a better word - need your help here sheepie) any trekking fan will gladly steer clear of. Cleverer... or wilier?
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Post by sheepiefarm on Jun 13, 2008 18:12:15 GMT -5
When Christian said to Gregor - I tried to tell you - imo, he was referring to his relationship with Olli more so than he was gay. You may or may not have noticed that I am decidely a Christian fan, however, I thought that Olli looked distinctly handsome in that black shirt - however, Christian in his new shirt was just *phew!* Really loved the bit where Olli was trying to indicate to Judith to "shut the fuck up" - a beautifully little scripted scene to add a touch of humour to an emotional episode. I thought the final scene between the two brothers was pitched just right - the Mann brothers are NOT over emotional - to have induced tears or overlong hugging scenes would have been way out of character for these two guys. "But you won't lose me" I don't know why, but that line just did it for me - whilst not actually reduced to tears running down my face - it did induce a moment of "manly blinking" - oh yeah and I think maybe I blew my nose Not sure if agree with the line of thinking that Christian's anger at Gregor is subconsiously anger at his own self. I think Christian is beyond that point now - though I think he still has issues with how he is "now" gonna "be" percieved by others - and who can blame him after the Wolle incident. In typical Christian fashion - he's already had this "I'm gay" conversation with his brother in his head a thousand times (re - the dream sequence a few weeks back) - always with the same outcome, i.e. Gregor will despise him for it. That is always the outcome for Christian because that is what he fears the most - thus the subconscious mind is preparing himself for that moment - therefore when the moment comes - especially in the embarrassing, shocking way that it did, all logic and presence of mind goes out the window - the first subtle sign we see of that is the way he looks to Olli - but really, it is an uncomprehending look - his mind is now re-playing the "worst case scenario" reaction from Gregor regardless of what is actually happening around him which is why A - without thinking he immediately wants to rush after Gregor without realising he is naked B - he immediately goes on the defensive without realising that he doesn't actually know how Gregor has reacted. However - as I have said before - we all see the story we want to see.
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Post by fortheloveofgays on Jun 13, 2008 18:32:34 GMT -5
When Christian said to Gregor - I tried to tell you - imo, he was referring to his relationship with Olli more so than he was gay. You may or may not have noticed that I am decidely a Christian fan, however, I thought that Olli looked distinctly handsome in that black shirt - however, Christian in his new shirt was just *phew!* Really loved the bit where Olli was trying to indicate to Judith to "shut the fuck up" - a beautifully little scripted scene to add a touch of humour to an emotional episode. I thought the final scene between the two brothers was pitched just right - the Mann brothers are NOT over emotional - to have induced tears or overlong hugging scenes would have been way out of character for these two guys. "But you won't lose me" I don't know why, but that line just did it for me - whilst not actually reduced to tears running down my face - it did induce a moment of "manly blinking" - oh yeah and I think maybe I blew my nose Not sure if agree with the line of thinking that Christian's anger at Gregor is subconsiously anger at his own self. I think Christian is beyond that point now - though I think he still has issues with how he is "now" gonna "be" percieved by others - and who can blame him after the Wolle incident. In typical Christian fashion - he's already had this "I'm gay" conversation with his brother in his head a thousand times (re - the dream sequence a few weeks back) - always with the same outcome, i.e. Gregor will despise him for it. That is always the outcome for Christian because that is what he fears the most - thus the subconscious mind is preparing himself for that moment - therefore when the moment comes - especially in the embarrassing, shocking way that it did, all logic and presence of mind goes out the window - the first subtle sign we see of that is the way he looks to Olli - but really, it is an uncomprehending look - his mind is now re-playing the "worst case scenario" reaction from Gregor regardless of what is actually happening around him which is why A - without thinking he immediately wants to rush after Gregor without realising he is naked B - he immediately goes on the defensive without realising that he doesn't actually know how Gregor has reacted. However - as I have said before - we all see the story we want to see. Your absolutely right sheepie we all react to the story in different ways because we all have a different view on life. For me personally I think that Christian shouting out at Gregor all of his feelings before Gregor gets a word in edgewise makes perfect sense. The fact is that Gregor did walk out on Christian and Olli, so Christian automatically went on the defensive. He was just getting everything off of his chest that he had wanted to say to Gregor before he lost his nerve. That is the way that I am towards the people that I love, I automatically get angry and go on the defensive and start blurting out all of my feelings without waiting for the other person to speak. So for me the scene with Christian in the hallway was very poingant it was exactly the way I would have reacted.
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neand48
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'It isn't about who has the power or who doesn't, but the power you share when you love each other.'
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Post by neand48 on Jun 13, 2008 18:39:01 GMT -5
Gregor's pink shirt... nothing more appropriate.
Everybody's dream BIG BROTHER, and gorgeous to boot too...
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Post by gastLXXXIV on Jun 13, 2008 19:36:23 GMT -5
Not sure if agree with the line of thinking that Christian's anger at Gregor is subconsiously anger at his own self. I think Christian is beyond that point now - though I think he still has issues with how he is "now" gonna "be" percieved by others - and who can blame him after the Wolle incident. In typical Christian fashion - he's already had this "I'm gay" conversation with his brother in his head a thousand times (re - the dream sequence a few weeks back) - always with the same outcome, i.e. Gregor will despise him for it. That is always the outcome for Christian because that is what he fears the most - thus the subconscious mind is preparing himself for that moment - therefore when the moment comes - especially in the embarrassing, shocking way that it did, all logic and presence of mind goes out the window - the first subtle sign we see of that is the way he looks to Olli - but really, it is an uncomprehending look - his mind is now re-playing the "worst case scenario" reaction from Gregor regardless of what is actually happening around him which is why A - without thinking he immediately wants to rush after Gregor without realising he is naked B - he immediately goes on the defensive without realising that he doesn't actually know how Gregor has reacted. I think the key observation is that Christian lectures to Gregor what Christian needs, himself, to be convinced of. We--just as would the other characters of the story, who have heard anything that Gregor's actually said on the subject--recognize that the 'lecture' is misdirected. Gregor has several times--and quite explicitly--made it clear to Christian that he is not prejudiced against gay sex--is, rather, entirely accepting of homosexuality and of those who, like Olli, practice it. In fact--and as others have pointed out--on more than one occasion he'd actively and pointedly disapproved of Christian's seeming homophobia. Upon discovering C&O together in bed, Gregor reacts--with surprise and puzzlement, yes--but all he actually does is to politely excuse himself--gives no basis for Christian's accusation that he'd not told his brother because he knew Gregor would "react just like this." Gregor's demeanor at the door is a recognition that Christian is arguing with himself, not really with him. But what disturbs Gregor is the recognition that Christian, evidently, knows and trusts him so little. We see that that's why Gregor's hurt, but Christian hasn't a clue. Until, of course, Olli and Gregor talk, and Gregor realizes that his role as big brother entails patience in this as well. Then, with their conversation and Gregor's clarification, Christian too finally comes to understand--and accept--which is what the slight nod of his head (into G's shoulder) at the very end of the episode is meant, I think, to convey. I don't mean--by any means--to say that Christian was, up until that moment, still a closet-homophobe--that he was divided into two, and one half of him was yet Wolle-like. Not at all. I think he'd already mostly come to terms with it. But I think there was a residual 'demon' that only now has been laid to rest--now that Gregor knows. But the demon wasn't the actual Gregor--it was Christian's own last misgiving about being gay* projected onto Gregor. And, Sheepie, the above just by way of 'engaged' discussion--I too recognize that ultimately these interpretations (like Christian's!) are based in one's own sensibility. *or, as I think Lola would have it, being in a gay relationship
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j9l45
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Post by j9l45 on Jun 13, 2008 19:53:01 GMT -5
You know, we get to compliment Jo and Thore a lot, but I must say, Andreas was fantastic in these scenes.
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restenergy
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Olli forever (and Christian, too)
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Post by restenergy on Jun 13, 2008 20:05:09 GMT -5
Your absolutely right sheepie we all react to the story in different ways because we all have a different view on life. For me personally I think that Christian shouting out at Gregor all of his feelings before Gregor gets a word in edgewise makes perfect sense. The fact is that Gregor did walk out on Christian and Olli, so Christian automatically went on the defensive. Plus he didn't get an all that friendly reception when he knocked on Gregor's door. That would have done nothing to challenge Christian's expectations of his brother's reaction.
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momnoc
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"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." Dr. Seuss
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Post by momnoc on Jun 13, 2008 20:18:42 GMT -5
You know, we get to compliment Jo and Thore a lot, but I must say, Andreas was fantastic in these scenes. First let me say, I am a huge Andreas fan, and he was fantastic in these scenes, but is it just me, or did he not look so good in this clip? I don't know what else is going on with he and Sarah,and of course he just found out that Christian didn't trust him and thought he was an a**hole......... but to me he looked really tired in this espisode. (runs and ducks for cover!)
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restenergy
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Olli forever (and Christian, too)
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Post by restenergy on Jun 13, 2008 20:24:16 GMT -5
First let me say, I am a huge Andreas fan, and he was fantastic in these scenes, but is it just me, or did he not look so good in this clip? I don't know what else is going on with he and Sarah, and of course he just found out that Christian didn't trust him and thought he was an a**hole......... but to me he looked really tired in this espisode. (runs and ducks for cover!) I think he did, especially when Olli was confronting him. But I thought it was very fitting. He thought the brother who would stick with him through think and thin wasn't and thought ill of him. He had rather shockingly discovered something rather significant about his brother that he didn't expect. I think it's thrown Gregor for a very big loop. He's adrift. Look at the way he polishes that glass when Olli comes in. He's just going through the day in a fog. I think he's been in it every since he opened the door to Christian's room. When defending his Mann, Olli also ends up snapping the other Mann out of it.
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