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Post by alessis on Oct 3, 2008 12:29:16 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree with all your points, Greenwich, and with what most of what others said earlier in the thread, too. It's a complex and many-layered thing, hence the "talk and talk and talk but utterly fail at explaining" that I've also experienced (well put).
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Aldi
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Meine Eltern haben sich nach Asien abgesetzt!
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Post by Aldi on Oct 3, 2008 14:05:45 GMT -5
Something else that I find entertaining (and if this has been brought up already, I'm dreadfully sorry) is how everyone knows that straight guys find two lesbians hot together but most people have no clue that it works the other way round for many women, lol. I've heard how guys got told off for appreciating girl-on-girl action with the argument that "women don't get off on the idea of two guys together, after all" - hah, if they only knew! I've tried to refute that but again, no dice.
Thank god for lovely places like this where people get it ;D
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Post by amber80 on Oct 3, 2008 14:33:29 GMT -5
Oh, yes! I'm so glad there's a place like this. If you spend so much time here, you'd almost forget that it isn't considered that normal in the 'real world'.
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Post by alessis on Oct 3, 2008 15:40:32 GMT -5
Yeah, Greenwich and amber, that is so true, people don't get it, and they can be a bit shocked if you try to explain it... And I mean I live in a progressive country, in a big city, around openminded people who are not easily shocked, and yet I feel that this gay fascination is more "in the closet" for me than my own bisexuality. Two things to "come out" about, and the bisexuality is the easiest one, because at least people know what that is!
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Post by crazylilly on Oct 6, 2008 7:31:26 GMT -5
I think it also has to do with stereotypes and gender roles, to a degree. Enlightened or not, we still associate certain behaviours and patterns with a m/f relationship, sexually and otherwise. What I find interesting about m/m and f/f relationships is when you don't have those conventions, there is no role that you're supposed to naturally fall into. (Yeah, okay, there's a thousand gay pairings where one is the "man" and the other the "woman". I really don't like those much.) I find it fascinating to watch two people just figure out what they are to each other without being able to rely on such pre-cast moulds. It's not that it's more balanced, at all, it just seems a little more freestyle (sirtaki or freestyle, yay!), less shackled in convention and therefore instantly more appealing. (I'm pretty sure none of that made any sense whatsoever ) It totally made sense. Especially since this was, what I first liked about - well, in my case slash-stories. (Since my first fandom only had man and all woman came from the outside and were "weaker" because of that anyway, I started to read slash. It was just much more balanched in a way.) But there are a lot of very interesting ideas in this thread. And it is interesting to read that almost none of us really knows, why m/m-relationships are more interesting to us.
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I ♥ Blaine
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Post by I ♥ Blaine on Nov 4, 2008 17:19:58 GMT -5
The impression I get is that you don't mind seeing it (the guy/guy pairing) on TV or in the movies. Actually, you enjoy it. What about in real life? Have you ever witnessed it? If yes, did you react the same way? I'm just wondering. Just wanted to answer this. I smile when I see two men hand in hand and I think of Ollian... ;D I haven't witnessed "it" irl, BUT there's a gay friend of mine who is really hot and he brought his cute boyfriend to a party I was at. I must say I just wanted to look at them. I was so fascinated. They weren't doing anything... just being couply...so so cute and hot. But, I think I speak for the most of us when I say that seeing some of the raunchier VL or AWZ things happen in real life would be kinda weird..
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Post by provocateur on Nov 17, 2008 16:25:48 GMT -5
That's quite interesting that you girls like gay couples. What I can say is that a lot of girls do like gay people or people with gayish attitude. But when it's coming up with kissing and sex between guys they think it's ugly and disgusting .
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Post by skylighter on Jan 8, 2009 10:49:25 GMT -5
It is one of the best threads I could ever have imagined in the whole world! I have been into m/m relationships on TV for almost a year now and my bf has been joking me about it :-( I can only explain my obsession by saying it is the same fashion in how straight men love f/f make out. But just like so many of you have pointed out, they are really not the same. Str8 men are usually into more sensual or even obscene scenes with the f/f while we are mostly into the romance and connections of m/m.
Some of you have mentioned different orientations even among straight girls and that makes me wonder all the time too. I have tried to introduce QaF to my galpals but it seems none of them share the same passion as I do. A lof of them just think it is gross how two men make love to each other, and I can't really argue with that or can I?! In that matter I am completely standing alone and then to my great pleasure I found this forum <3 Objectively I have to say that as str8 women into m/m romance as to be quite a small demographic group, judged by how girls around me react to it as well as the population on this board. What do you guys think?
The most amazing post got be Alessis admiting she is bisexual yet still more into m/m than f/f. That's just completely out of my imagination. Maybe it is because Alessis is still more into guys then girls?
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Post by lolaruns on Jan 8, 2009 10:55:00 GMT -5
Agreed. I was lucky enough to find somebody in my real life who shared my fondness of it. But by far not all women are into it. You might find opinions ranging from indifference to vague dislike (even for women who are in favor of gay right).
So it really is just a subset of women who like it. Not all women.
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Post by crowie on Jan 10, 2009 16:22:43 GMT -5
I've ha the opposite experience really. Me and a friend of mine both really like m/m romance and before the internet often went on big treks to rent gay themed movies/tv shows etc. since we really liked the romance.
QAF - UK was one of the first dvds I bought for example because I really really wanted to see the show etc.
Then I watched some of that with my sister as well and she really likes m/m romance as well, then I moved to a different city and the majority of my female friends here think that gay romance is somewhere on a range from neutral to hot, depending on how it's done of course.
Still of course it's not all women.
As for the difference between gay stuff irl and on film. I used to live with a gay guy and I never had any problems with that at all, when he was in a relationship he brought his boyfriend over (and some casual flings occasionally when he wasn't in a relationship) and it was all good. They were a bit loud on occasion but that was the only annoying thing *coughcough* and not any different than if they'd been a straight couple.
I can't say that it's "hot" irl though, I'm not a voyeur. For me it's pretty much exactly like straight relationships, i.e people can be cute together when they're really happy etc. but I don't get a kick out of watching my friends make out with their boyfriend or girlfriend. That'd just be weird.
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Post by skylighter on Jan 11, 2009 8:07:09 GMT -5
I've ha the opposite experience really. Me and a friend of mine both really like m/m romance and before the internet often went on big treks to rent gay themed movies/tv shows etc. since we really liked the romance. QAF - UK was one of the first dvds I bought for example because I really really wanted to see the show etc. Then I watched some of that with my sister as well and she really likes m/m romance as well, then I moved to a different city and the majority of my female friends here think that gay romance is somewhere on a range from neutral to hot, depending on how it's done of course. You are so lucky Crowie! I guess it also has something to do if you have an open-minded friend circle or not. Most of my girlfriends were quite conservatively brought up, so it might be only natural they are not into alternative romance. Great to know a lot of girls feel the same way about m/m romance. Always nice to share with someone
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Sonnenschein
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Post by Sonnenschein on Jan 11, 2009 12:02:02 GMT -5
What drew me to m/m-relationships? Can't really tell. I agree with the things explained so far (more tender side of men, well told stories, curiosity, relationships need to be difficult in order to be beautiful, ...) It all started when I was still in school. Me and 2 female friends watched "The Priest" together. And boy did that kiss blow us away we kept rewinding for hours ;D And after that it was "Coming out". These two classics did it for us. Since then we actively look for touching and moving gems like Ollian! The first thing that comes to my mind when I try to start explaining is the difference to those m/f relationships you see everywhere. By that I mean there are mostly more obstacles to overcome. And I find that most gay stories are written more thoughfully and with more care and love. The doubled hotness factor surely doesn't hurt either ;D I am sorry to read that not all of us here are so lucky to share their addiction, feelings, faible... with people close to them in real life But thankfully we all have found our way to this invredible place. to you all outthere! I've seen lots of m/m kisses irl by now. And there is still something incredibly hot about it. And no I haven't seen "more" irl. Right there with you gals - that is way too private! PS: Bonobochick YAY for Angel/Buffy and Michael/Nikita!
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Post by crowie on Jan 12, 2009 16:45:34 GMT -5
It all started when I was still in school. Me and 2 female friends watched "The Priest" together. And boy did that kiss blow us away we kept rewinding for hours ;DHahaha me and my friend did that too! although it was My Beautiful Laundrette that kicked the whole thing off complete with rewinding if I remember correctly. Priest was one of the movies we then sought out very shortly afterwards and it's still one of my favourite movies.
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Post by brownsugar on Jan 15, 2009 23:17:04 GMT -5
My enlightenment came one chilly night when I was about twenty years old in my home town of Birmingham, England. I was watching this foreign movie. I don't even remember which country it was from, but it was about two men back in the time of the Roman Empire with Julia Cesar. They were in love and having this secret relationship. Anyway, when these two gorgeous men kissed and was all intimate with each other, I remember thinking/feeling...that was so hot, and from then on there was no looking back. Fortunately for me, my sister also loves gay movies and the m/m intimacy. I've just told her about Olli and Christian on You Tube which she will be getting to when she gets the kids off to bed at night. I also know other women who love to see men kissing in gay movies and find it incredibly sexy. I believe there is a ton of women out there who love to watch gay romantic story lines in movies and series but are running scared when it comes to revealing their like. This society we live in is dominated by men allowing them to freely carry on about how 'hot' it is to see two women together while saying how 'disgusting' it is for two men to be seen kissing. And of course they expect women to agree/feel the same way as they do. Their arrogance doesn't allow for any other thought. It doesn't occure to them or they don't care to know that maybe, just maybe women could have the same reaction to seeing two men kiss and be intimate as men do regarding women. The evidence is clearly apparent about women's love of seeing two men together. All those shows like QAF, Six Feet Under, Oz, and the current bromances have huge female follows. Also, one of the major factors in driving the movie Brokeback Mountain to the box office smash that it became was women. And what about all that slash fiction written by women. I even remember there was this one episode of Sex And The City where the girls all rented gay movies for a night in. Trust me, there are plenty of us women out there who love m/m storylines. Personally, I hide nothing...I have a nice collection of gay themed movies which are in full view for anyone visiting my house. I admit that I love the romances and most of them that I own are with happy endings. The ones I own are well written, acted and yes, the men in these moves are gorgeous. The Olli and Christian story is just amazing. Romance taken to the highest level. And Jo and Thore being two great looking guys is a huge added bonus. ;D I would pay big bucks to get a DVD collection of their storyline. As for feeling uncomfortable if I see gay men being intimate in real life...absolutely not!! I've been to a number of gay clubs with most of the men paired of kissing, cuddling and dancing closely together, and it's so lovely. I can tell you this...although the men at the clubs have about zero interest in me...i've never been surrounded by some much gorgeous men in one spot. On the other hand...I do get plenty of chat up from the lesbians at these clubs.
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Post by lolaruns on Jan 16, 2009 3:06:24 GMT -5
I really, really, really wanna see that movie now ;D
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jan 16, 2009 9:39:15 GMT -5
I as well, Lola. I as well. I really, really, really wanna see that movie now ;D
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Post by brownsugar on Jan 18, 2009 21:36:55 GMT -5
lola, Difficult Diva...I really wish I remember the name of the movie. I do recall it having subtitles and I think it was made in the late eighties. Anyway, I've never seen it again since. All I know is it left a very lasting impression on me. ;D
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Post by matan4il on Feb 9, 2009 18:12:34 GMT -5
When I was around 10, I was WAY hooked on Batman: The Animated Series. WAY. And there was this episode where it was implied that Dick Greyson liked a girl. But it never comes to anything and we never see her again. An episode or two later, Bruce Wayne is on a date.
And all of a sudden, I found myself wondering, "why am I supposed to care about Bruce's date? Who is this woman? What does she mean to Bruce? Does she mean anything at all? She suddenly shows up this episode and next one, she'll probably be gone as well, never to be heard of again. And the person who Bruce really cares about is Dick. It's such a shame two men can't be together. They would have made a beautiful couple."
Obviously, I didn't know two men CAN be together at that point in my life, but it's equally obvious to me that I responded to something in the show, between these two men, that was undeniable.
I think the truth is we girls are taught from a very young age about relationships and how desirable couples and romance and such things are. So I don't know about you, but I always had my eyes open for romance. Yes, even on animated series such as this one. But we're not turned into robots and the emotions are still what guide us when we want to cheer for a blossoming romance. I think it's obvious I was responding to the fact that the emotions simply were strongest - in that particular case - between two men. And the older we get, the more we realize that's alright and possible, and there's no reason not to love a story like that.
And to add to this theory - that at the core we respond to the emotions we're shown by actors/characters - I'll point out the fact that there were and still are a lot of straight couples I cheered (and still cheer) for. Buffy & Angel on Buffy, for example. Sooky & Bill on Tru Blood, for another, more recent one.
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Post by davedoty on Mar 24, 2009 2:48:05 GMT -5
Howdy, all. I'm fairly new to the boards, and thought I'd resurrect this zombie thread to throw in a couple of thoughts, since I've been a part of various slash communities over the years, and seen these subjects come up many times.
I don't have much to say about the original question. I've seen that even the women involved in the phenomenon can't seem to agree on the source of its appeal, so I'm not about to try to tell people what's going on in their heads. I will say that I don't really like the theory that women get into male-male relationships because they're equal, unlike male-female relationships. It just makes me sad that some straight women just seem to have given up on the idea that men and women can have healthy relationships.
As for what gay men think of it, I've found that gay men and women mix pretty well in groups like this, and it's not usually an issue. Occassionally a gay man gets oversensitive and looks for reasons to be offended, or a straight woman gets so caught up in her ideas about homosexuality that she tries to argue with the gay men in the group about how gay people act or feel, but those are both pretty rare.
I do think there can be a difference in fiction written by men and by straight women. One story I like to illustrate this: I once wrote a Due South slash writer and asked if she was a man, because her stories gave me that vibe. Fortunately, she was flattered rather than offended, and mentioned that other gay men who had read her stories had asked her the same thing. To me, this illustrates two points: the fact that multiple men recognized "male" type writing independently suggests that it really exists, and also that it's clearly not a strict division, since we all managed to misidentify a female writer as male.
Interestingly, when there is division, it seems to be more along straight/gay lines than male/female. When I've been in slash groups with active lesbian members, they often seemed to fall into line with the gay male viewpoint than the straight women's, on those occasions when those subjects came up. Again, I'm not going to speculate on why, except that I don't know if that would be true if it was a group devoted to female characters, but I found it interesting.
The one thing that really bothered me occurred once in a while when women would ask gay men, either out of curiosity or research for fanfic, personal questions about feelings, or what it was like to come out, or... ahem... physical details. Most of the time, these are very pleasant exchanges, and nice conversation comes out of it. But occassionally, the woman in question would forget that she was asking someone to share something very personal, and sometimes tied in with very ugly things in their past, and they would share... inappropriate... comments on what they hear. If you're going to ask someone to share deeply personal, private things with you, then even if you think those things are gross, or shallow, or selfish, or whatever, you DON'T TELL THEM THAT!
The worst case I can recall actually happened to a friend of mine, and not me. As research for a story, someone had asked him about what kind of sexual fantasies men gay men might have, thinking that they are often different than the fantasies men might have. A couple of weeks later, in a public discussion, she brought up one of the things he mentioned as an example of how shallow men can be! She didn't mention his name, but you can imagine how he felt watching her publicly mock something very personal he had told her.
Anyway, those are random thoughts, but I should conclude by reiterating my earlier point that most of the time, gay men and straight women mix perfectly fine.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2009 17:08:49 GMT -5
Just wanted to quickly note that I am a huge fan of QAF, Degrassi and Verbotene Liebe. I also enjoy Buffy and Angel however I loved Spike more than I liked Angel as he loved Buffy without his soul.
I am also a huge shipper of the Willow and Tara relationship especially the fact that even with her dying words Tara was always thinking of Willow. After being shot and seeing Willow's shirt bloodied she says: Tara: "Willow your shirt..." and then dies, broke my heart that did.
I would also like to say that I have never really understood Homo phobia or Hetero phobia why can't we all just love each other for who we are?
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I ♥ Blaine
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Post by I ♥ Blaine on May 18, 2009 17:12:35 GMT -5
So now I can add ghey p0rn to my list. One of my gay friends thought he would broaden mine and another friends horizons so he showed us some. I always wondered how I would react on it. Must admit it was strange (not bad strange) but still hot...and much more "tender"-looking than straight.... but I do definately prefer watching something that leaves something to the imagination, like say OLLIAN, and I don't have an urge to watch more! Have any of you ever watched some and what was your reaction? Hope it's ok to ask this here. I am just curious. ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2009 17:30:27 GMT -5
Once my Ex boyfriend (who was 14 at the time, I was 13 and his little brother was 9) put on the Playboy channel and you should have seen his face when he saw two guys going at it.
I have no reaction to it what so ever, b/c I see it as very fake. To this day my Ex blames that moment for turning his little brother gay (One of the reasons we broke up, but not the only reason).
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I ♥ Blaine
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Post by I ♥ Blaine on May 18, 2009 17:38:35 GMT -5
Once my Ex boyfriend (who was 14 at the time, I was 13 and his little brother was 9) put on the Playboy channel and you should have seen his face when he saw two guys going at it. I have no reaction to it what so ever, b/c I see it as very fake. To this day my Ex blames that moment for turning his little brother gay (One of the reasons we broke up, but not the only reason). It is definately fake. But I found it strangely fascinating still.
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Post by davedoty on May 22, 2009 13:03:40 GMT -5
Have any of you ever watched some and what was your reaction? I'm going to guess this is one of those "just for the women" questions.
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I ♥ Blaine
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Post by I ♥ Blaine on May 22, 2009 13:22:39 GMT -5
Have any of you ever watched some and what was your reaction? I'm going to guess this is one of those "just for the women" questions. HAHAHAHAHA! Yes, I guess it is. ;D I admit it.. it was hot. I feel dirty now.
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