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Post by davedoty on Jul 11, 2009 8:37:45 GMT -5
My thoughts after part 5:
My thoughts are largely unchanged from part 4, although in this case, I think I should have written separate comments for here and AfterElton, since there was a certain... aggression in my post that was really aimed at some folks over there, not here. Future note to self: cut and paste random comments: good. Cut and paste intense debate: bad.
I again feel this will probably be the best writing to come out of RTD for his work on the entire franchise. The only major fault, IMHO, was the "six months later" ending, which was a little twee. I suspect that this was always intended to be the end of the series, and comments about a season four were just to throw us off how thoroughly he blew up the show in these five days. But we'll have to see what statements come out of the head office now that the end is out.
Personally, even though I loved it, I actually agree with the people who want the show to end, although for me it's because I think it was a great ending. And as I've said before, I think it wouldn't be a bad thing for the franchise to "rinse and spit" the remaining RTD aftertaste, and start afresh with the next showrunner. I'm looking at you next, Sarah Jane Adventures. I suppose a bloodbath of those kids is too much to hope for? ;D
Anyway, if it does come back, it may be with a "rightsized" and more harmonious fanbase. I'm not accusing anyone who says they aren't in this camp, but the fandom on Outpost Gallifrey and AE and places like that have always been full of a large contingent of people whose attitudes, literally and in their own words, were "this show is terrible, I only watch it for Janto." If they do come back, I would enjoy watching the show and then getting to talk about it with a fan base who actually LIKE the show.
No crossposting here, since I've pulled out of the Torchwood discussion on AfterElton entirely.
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dalia
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Post by dalia on Jul 11, 2009 23:20:53 GMT -5
I still haven't watched episode 5, after 4 I didn't feel like it, but will probably watch it tonight.
i wholeheartedly agree with valso and carld Re: Ianto. i wasn't crying for the death of Janto, while i did like the pairing - i was disheartened because my favorite character was killed off for no apparent reason. if it was only to turn Jack into a dark character, which in itself is a shame, but i'm sorry - Ianto deserved better than that.
if i wasn't so invested in Ianto i would have loved Season 3, the format of it being a miniseries with one central story worked well. i'm sure there will be a season 4, but with Ianto being killed off, i no longer care about the show. i did like Jack, but i don't think i like what he has become (or becoming)- and i've never cared for Gwen, so there is no point for me to continue to watch.
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Post by harmonium on Jul 12, 2009 16:10:57 GMT -5
Okie dokie. I have finally managed to finish all 5 episodes at one go. And I must say I am a little overwhelmed with this mini-series. It's about 4plus in the morning as I'm typing this, so please excuse my sentence structuring as they may be a little off.
First of all, about this particular format. It has its cons and pros. I like it because it's precise and it makes this particular season very exciting. It's like you want to know what's gonna happen next and how the whole thing will end. So it's concise, fast and will keep the viewers glued to the show. But what I don't like is (although the storyline is compelling) the whole premise of the show is pretty "sick" in a way especially the ending. I can't really deal with the fact that they have to use a child as a sacrifice (and let him dies, it's painful to watch the child die with him not knowing what he is sacrificing for) and that the children are the targeted victims. I usually have minimal tolerance to these kind of storylines. And also although the format for this season has changed, I still prefer an alien per week basis format. Because when each episode is connected to each other, usually the storyline will be "dark" and "heavy-hearted" and somehow make the show lost its appeal. (That's what happen to "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", I enjoy the earlier seasons alot, but when things turn to the darker side, it gets very heavy to follow and makes me uninterested in following the rest of show). So with the current format, I'm not sure how are they gonna revert to the usual format in a good way for the next season.
Second, the killing off of Ianto is absolutely unnecessary and in no way helpful in making a significant amount of viewers to follow the next season (if there is). I mean Ianto has proved to be a popular character, killing him off just make no incentive for certain viewers to follow the show. They have killed Owen and Tosh (who is my fav. character) in just 2 seasons. Now with Ianto gone, I have never seen a show with such a high turnover rate in the main cast. I mean viewers have already emotionally invested in certain characters. So by killing characters off just like that (and for climax sake) is a pretty silly thing to do. If there is a next season, I hope they will bring back Ianto somehow. Maybe a Ianto-Bot? (Just like a Buffy-Bot in "Buffy") Hehehe. Seriously, with Owen, Tosh and Ianto gone, I can't see how Jack and Gwen can carry the show given they are pretty uninteresting to me. Jack works for me when he's with Ianto. I know the show may introduce new characters but there are equal chances that the new characters may or may not be as interesting as the old ones, so I will keep my options open.
Thirdly, this may not be relevant to the future of the show, but just a general comment with the reference to the storyline. If you were anyone in the government or anyone of Torchwood, would you sacrifice the kids (if there is no other way to fight the aliens) or you would unite the whole world to fight against the aliens? Coz either way, there are sacrifices, but ethically and reasonably, which option would you choose? I think for me, I would rather unite the whole world to fight against the aliens. At least, everyone will be on the same level and more or less has the equal chances of surviving and dying, knowing the truth and fight for their lives, rather than letting other people who happen to be on the higher authority to decide who should live and who shouldn't. And through the whole deal, I found that humans are just mere statistics and pawns. And also in the end, it's all about natural selection and the survival of the fittest/smartest.
Overall, I would say I have mixed feelings about this current season. Good storyline and execution but poor choice of ending for certain characters. When Ianto died, I didn't really feel sad (maybe because I was spoiled accidentally). But even if I wasn't spoiled, I will probably feel more dismayed rather than upset because of killing him off. It's like they have kill a major character off just to heighten the climax, which I think it kinda backfire. Now I just hope that the new season will be a good one. Call me silly but I'm still holding to the hope that they will revive Ianto and Tosh (yes, I want her back!!!). We shall see...
On side-track, does anyone thinks that the actress that portrays Lois looks like Leona Lewis? Hehehe.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jul 12, 2009 22:07:17 GMT -5
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Post by davedoty on Jul 12, 2009 22:24:09 GMT -5
Having seen some of those same mean-spirited comments on AfterElton, I can totally understand.
Every time someone talks about how the creators HATE the fans, I've seen the personal animosity begin with the fans. And yes, when they've spewed enough ugly personal attacks at the creators, I'm sure the creators do hate those fans right back.
I don't believe they deliberately write badly to get back at them, though.
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Post by ivaniv on Jul 12, 2009 23:34:20 GMT -5
Has it come to this that people are insulting writers because they don't like what happened? That's mad
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2009 0:10:14 GMT -5
I finally decided to share my thoughts on this in light of the ridiculous hooplah going on. I personally thought it was the most brilliant thing RTD has done in years. I watched Doctor Who recently, and I didn’t find it nearly as riveting as this five-arc season. The thing is, I loved Ianto, and I really liked Janto for what it was as well. I felt his death. And yet, the amazing writing, pace and acting overrode any personal feeling I had over it. It takes a lot for me to appreciate TV these days (or the last few years), but I really, really enjoyed this one. It was dark and bleak, and it was definitely not perfect (loopholes were very present), but it was a great ride, of the kind that is getting scarcer and scarcer on the small screen. Most of all, I love that there was no cop-out, no reset button to get out of this all shiny and sparkly. A small part of me hoped for it because a character/actor I enjoyed slipped away, but I was glad this time they stuck to telling a good story. GDL is a good actor, but so are so many in these episodes. Eve Myles being one of them. I haven’t always enjoyed her character, but I certainly appreciated her acting chops, this time especially. The secondary characters were just fantastic. It is quite amazing that the most chilling scenes to me were so terribly and cruelly human, as they were the ones of the debates between the members of the Cabinet regarding the “units”. Those scenes displayed such an ugly reality that it could very well have been humanity looking at itself in the mirror. I’m not about to overlook the greatness of it all just because a character – who was no less expendable than virtually every other mortal TW member – I cared about got the axe. It was good TV, plain and simple.
I hope that if TW comes back, it doesn’t get ruined, either by bending to the wailing and threats of psycho stans or by trying to bring back the Captain Jack that is always smiling, happy and flirty, without a damn good explanation. TW this time broke the Jack we knew and I won’t give a pass to a failure to acknowledge it. When you want to do your stuff without listening too much to the fans, this is how you do it: by telling a great story even if it ends up pissing some people off. [ATWT’s CG could take note.] Don’t cheat later on by breaking it to satisfy some loud crazies.
As for fandom wank, boy do I despise it, as it reminds me yet again of that other dreadful fandom which somehow bears a remote (in my mind anyway – I stick to that) connection to another RTD masterpiece. Only this time, we are talking about good writing; so, I feel compelled to do more than watching from the sidelines while shaking my head and rolling my eyes. I’ll chime in that the threats and guilt trips sent to the writers (like the poor James Moran) are just so pathetic and low, especially because they did a marvelous job IMO, which is not something that could be said a lot about TW in general. What’s the point of acting like someone killed your dog while we’re talking about freaking TV and entertainment?!? So, from me anyway, only one word to all who worked hard on this: BRAVO! I was certainly entertained.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 13, 2009 5:15:27 GMT -5
I know that some folks are pissed, saddened, want blood and demanding answers, but I'm not one of them. I understand your feelings, so please understand mine:
I really enjoyed CoE. I went on the ride and experienced all the many ups and downs. I thought it was amazing and it still resonates with me, even after seeing it all in one shot 12 hours later.
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Post by davedoty on Jul 13, 2009 5:25:01 GMT -5
I've also not always been much of a Gwen fan, although I haven't been a hater. But in her defense, I should point out that the only time in the series I even came close to tears (I got a little misty, at least) was when Rhys asked her if she was really going to get rid of the baby, and she promised him she wasn't.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 13, 2009 11:48:41 GMT -5
That was a very good and honest scene between them, DaveDoty. I can't imagine what it had to be like for Rhys to hear Gwen saying that about THEIR CHILD, during the tense moments after hearing what 456 were planning on doing to the children. I'm so glad that she's kept their child, because if Gwen ends up turning into Jack, then Rhys can run off with their child.
I've never really been an all-out GWEN HATER, but what irritated and annoyed me about the character was the way that she totally disregarded and took for granted Rhys absolute love for her and their relationship. He wanted her: warts and all. All she could see (when she initially joined Torchwood in season 1) was that he was "dull, plain, average", but as much as she wanted MORE in her life, she still wanted him in her life. She had to figure out how to balance her home life with her work life, because she didn't want to end up sad and lonely like Owen, Tosh, Ianto and Jack. Once she realized that IF she was without Rhys (even during the time of her affair with Owen), she would have nothing and that was after she ret-conned him after he was killed.
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Post by davedoty on Jul 13, 2009 12:06:01 GMT -5
For me, the biggest issue with Gwen has always been how deeply flawed she is, which I think is great, but then RTD will turn around and right a scene or a character's speech that is supposed to make us think she's wonderful and perfect. It's a double standard he uses a lot - it's what bugged me about 10Doc and Rose.
Like the scene when Jack told Suzie how wonderful Gwen was, and she was such a better person than Suzie had been. Really? The same woman who had an affair and used retcon to confess then have him forget so she could feel better and avoid the consequences?
I'm fine with the Gwen that did those awful things. I would have been less excited but okay with the perfect Gwen Jack described. But put them together, and you get a character who can do terrible things, then get a free pass from consequences or even guilt.
I think not seeing that Gwen was another reason CofE was so great.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 14, 2009 14:58:38 GMT -5
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softfurbear
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Post by softfurbear on Jul 15, 2009 16:48:28 GMT -5
Today's AfterElton interview with "Torchwood"'s John Barrowman: "I Love Captain Jack, what he stands for and represents." by Michael Jensen, Editor Note: The interview does not contain any spoilers for CoE, but some of the viewer comments do. www.afterelton.com/people/2009/7/john-barrowmanI would love to see him work with NPH (as someone else commented, can you image them in a remake of "The Odd Couple" together?) and Gareth as always comes across as lovely ;D
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Jul 17, 2009 15:58:58 GMT -5
For me, the biggest issue with Gwen has always been how deeply flawed she is, which I think is great, but then RTD will turn around and right a scene or a character's speech that is supposed to make us think she's wonderful and perfect. It's a double standard he uses a lot - it's what bugged me about 10Doc and Rose. Gwen is always perfect and wonderful. Nothing bad can ever happen to her. The problem with this is that seeing the end of Torchwood being her and Jack, who has always been a character written in a very confusing, contradictory way (which is why I can't say this miniseries "broke" Jack -- which Jack? Isn't this more of the same sadface Jack we have already seen anyway? Wasn't his entire team already killed 10 years ago? Hasn't he already lost loves, like the woman killed by faeries? It's all just endless angst with no real fallout), is that it means any character who was not Jack or Gwen had to die. They were simply unworthy. Tosh and Ianto were both such wonderful creations, they brought so many great moments, and yet, they were, almost for kicks, killed off. There's no point in investing in a show if great characters are just casually chopped down while others who bring little to the plate never seem to face anything.
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nana29
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Post by nana29 on Jul 17, 2009 18:21:12 GMT -5
Tosh and Ianto were both such wonderful creations, they brought so many great moments, and yet, they were, almost for kicks, killed off. There's no point in investing in a show if great characters are just casually chopped down while others who bring little to the plate never seem to face anything. I agree with you, I really haven't made any comments of the series, butI don't think I'll be seeing series 4 if there is one. I invested in this show, and totally loved the character of Ianto. Gareth David Lloyd played him so well. Yea, I was a Janto fan but I was an Ianto fan first. I don't get how everyone here was suppose to sacrifice something during this series, everyone did except Gwen, and I think that's what irks me in the wrong way. I don't hate her character, its just that in the first series they just threw her in our face, then i hated that she retconed Rhys. Series two, i grew to like her a bit more, so i have nothing against the chacracter, but it does annoy me that she didn't lose anything (aside from a friend, but she lost Tosh and Owen last series too) and Jack pretty much lost everything. And Ianto, well...his life. There was an interview where RTD explained why he killed Ianto, it came down to the extent to make the character of jack grow, that without killing Ianto I think he would have been able to sacrifce his grandson. I'm just sayinig that for a character to grow you don't have to kill off his love interest!
oh, and yellow is still very readiable, for the purpose of the spoilers. ;D
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Jul 18, 2009 7:28:30 GMT -5
What you said is very true, in my opinion. There were other ways of "breaking" Jack, or making him sacrifice. If anything Ianto's death was a poor way, because they had never really shown a heavy relationship between them. We usually only got inferences and brief glimpses. Jack is immortal, he has seen lovers die by various fates, he's seen his entire team die. For his death alone to bring some big change in Jack, I didn't buy it. I thought it was shock value only. I also think it's disappointing that they saw Ianto as such an unimportant character that he was killed only for this big change. I also don't believe that fans ever loved Torchwood for some big dark brooding Captain Jack. John Barrowman isn't that type of actor and can't quite carry it off. There were many other ways to write this storyline without going so far away from what worked best about the show. I like Jack well enough but I watched for people like Tosh and Ianto. Not for overwrought melodrama which will probably be brushed over if the show ever returns.
I wouldn't want Gwen to lose anything, because they would just kill Rhys and I like Rhys, but it is a jarring contrast that she has everything while Owen, Tosh, and Ianto were all violently murdered. Then to have her, who has a loving husband, a baby on the way, her health, a happy life, in tears, devastated over the thought of losing Jack, I thought it was a very wrong note to end on. The implication was she wants everything while others have had nothing.
I'm sorry that the writers have received angry comments. I don't have any desire to react that way. If I have any reaction it will be to stop watching. With the new producer and cast changes at Doctor Who I'm also concerned for that show. Hopefully the new Sarah Jane Adventures will hold up well.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Jul 20, 2009 19:57:05 GMT -5
Only 4 more minutes until CoE Day 1 airs here in America on BBC America. Woohoo.
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softfurbear
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Post by softfurbear on Jul 25, 2009 2:22:41 GMT -5
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carld2
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Post by carld2 on Jul 25, 2009 5:34:43 GMT -5
Here's another one. If you don't like Ianto's death, then go watch Supernatural. ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/07/backlash-shmacklash-thats-torchwood-creator-russell-t-davies-reaction-to-the-outcry-over-the-death-of-gareth-david-lloyds.htmlI don't know what I'm more startled by in that Afterelton piece, the assumption that the AfterElton writer is talking only about a sexual relationship between Jack and Ianto, the sudden idea that it would be wrong to bring someone back from the dead even though this has happened multiple times on Torchwood (Suzie, Rhys, Owen), the claim that Jack and Ianto had anywhere near as much of a relationship shown oncamera as Gwen and Rhys, or the claim that Jack and Ianto fans don't like Gwen and Rhys. It's funny because I thought DAVIES didn't like Gwen and Rhys. How else do you explain 1) Gwen cheating on him with Owen 2) Gwen confessing to him and then drugging him into amnesia (even though she had just seen people become insane and murderous because of those drugs) and 3) Gwen making those goo-goo eyes at Jack time after time, even on her wedding day! I can tell you that I probably like Gwen and Rhys a whole lot more than the show ever has. And if people didn't like them, how is he surprised, given the way that Rhys has consistently been written as an afterthought to Gwen? If the show itself were of better quality than maybe more people wouldn't have had this reaction. As it is, I won't be staying around to see who is killed off next.
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softfurbear
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Post by softfurbear on Jul 27, 2009 1:30:00 GMT -5
Brent Hartinger over on AfterElton.com just wrote up a piece I found interesting. SPOILER WARNING: DON'T READ IT IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED CoE. “Buffy” Vs. “Torchwood”: Which Did a Better Job Killing Its Gay Character?www.afterelton.com/TV/2009/7/buffy-versus-torchwood------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ My personal reaction to CoE (mostly cross posted from AfterElton): The first 3 1/2hrs of CoE were some of the most engaging scifi I'd seen in a long time while the last 1 1/2 hrs were a huge letdown after the fantastic buildup (and that would STILL be the case with me even if Ianto hadn't died). Ianto's death felt completely without a purpose story wise other than shock value and ultimately left me feeling unsatisfied.
I can understand wanting to kill off characters to make the point that these are dangerous worlds to live in, but to kill 3 out 5 of your main characters within 5 episodes seems to me to show a dangerous lack of insight into your fan base. We watch for the characters and how they learn and grown from the obstacles they face and become emotionally invested in them. This is why the killing of a character should happen rarely, to make us feel the shock and pain that much more strongly.
I kept waiting in Day 5 for Jack to come out guns blazing more angry than we'd ever seen him, motivated by the fury of losing Ianto so shortly after losing Tosh and Owen. If the hero is going to give up I want it to happen after banishing the threat to humanity. This is why they are the hero. They soldier on when no one else will! I realize Jack is an anti-hero but you must have him learn and grow from his mistakes to distinguish him in some way from the villains of the piece. For us to feel empathy for his loss we must feel he is worth caring about.
Jack is left at the end of CoE in a darker space than when he started at the beginning of Torchwood. This by itself is fine by me but he doesn't seemed to have grown or learned anything at all from these experiences. Where's the fun in following a show like that? Time will tell how Torchwood will have Jack handle himself in the future but I don't think I'll be watching to find out.
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Post by Bonobochick on Jul 27, 2009 9:04:34 GMT -5
Since Children of Earth has aired in the USA, it's ok to talk about it without spoiler font now.
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nryabenko
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Post by nryabenko on Jul 27, 2009 11:20:40 GMT -5
Depends if people saw it. I for one have not and wont "since Yanto died.".
I wont watch the rest of the show because I like Yanto and Jack together. I still like Jack, but the show has gotten darker.
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Ailyne
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Post by Ailyne on Jul 29, 2009 0:34:35 GMT -5
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA..... im.....horribly depressed... thats all i have to say.. Ianto and Jack I LOVE YOU.. oh
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Ailyne
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Post by Ailyne on Jul 29, 2009 0:46:53 GMT -5
ok...im a huge fan of Torchwood...i am....i have stuck through every decision that the writers made...but...for some reason i cant let this go...im sorry if it makes people mad... i just...i dont know...i feel betrayed...for some odd reason...i know...i still cant wrap it around my head... I dont understand...did they just do it to be dramatic...because if thats all they wanted well they got our attention.. im sorry...im just a little sad...i usually don't care who stays and who goes in my fav shows because ya know...writers know best...they keep us entertained day by day... but this one....i just...cant they broke my heart
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nana29
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Post by nana29 on Jul 29, 2009 0:49:35 GMT -5
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