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Post by dane323 on Dec 3, 2009 15:53:41 GMT -5
Hi Everyone, I thought it would be a good idea to create a separate thread for random questions on life & culture in Germany, which would help us international fans have a more well-rounded understanding of certain happenings on the show. And who better to get answers from than right from the source...those of you who live and/or grew up in Germany. For example, I asked several weeks ago what "The Bund" was...was it a military school for anyone, or for juvenile delinquents, or was it an actual military post of sorts? Were kids graduating from high school required to fulfill some military service, and that is what The Bund is for? The answers I received were fantastic and really helped me understand not only The Bund, but why Lenny currently has work obligations as he does. My current question is about the Christmas holidays. In the U.S., the Christmas holidays "officially" start after the U.S. Thanksgiving Day (on a Thursday toward the end of November each year). But thinking about it, obviously Germany would not have the same start to the holiday season. So, when is the "official" start traditionally considered for Germany then? And do Germans have Santa Claus? And do Germans traditionally open presents on Christmas Day or Christmas Eve? (I read somewhere else that in Germany, Christmas Eve is considered the more significant day. Sounded untrue, but was curious.) I guess I want to see some holiday festivities on GZSZ soon!  |
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lizkarita
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Post by lizkarita on Dec 3, 2009 16:01:29 GMT -5
Well, I'm not German, but since Austria and Germany are not that different relating the Christmas holidays, I'll try to answer them. I'm not too sure about the Christmas season starting in Germany, but here it started about two weeks ago. To me at least, the start of Christmas season was when all the punch booths opened up and the city was decorated with Christmas lights. In Austria/Germany there is no Santa Claus, even though it's becoming more popular here with all the stuff swamping over from the US.  We have the "Christkind" (Christ-Child ?), who brings the presents. And indeed we celebrate Christmas on Christmas Eve on December 24th. Usually, for people who are religious, there's a mass in the evening and then you go home and celebrate Christmas. December 25th is not really a special day, it's a holiday, but our celebrating is done the day before. I hope I could partially answer your questions. |
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Post by placebo on Dec 3, 2009 16:14:56 GMT -5
Well, I don't think there's really a date where the holiday season starts. At least not that I know of any. There is, however, the tradition to have an Advent wreath with four candles and you light one every sunday from four weeks before christmas onwards. So maybe it starts then, IDK... Well, I actually grew up with the belief in Santa Claus, so at least in northern Germany it's something that kids are told. And sometimes you have someone (the neighbour, the gardener, your car mechanic) dress up like Santa Claus and bring the gifts. My parents never bothered to do that, but just told me, that obviously Santa would bring the presents by night and the next morning they just were there.  Guess I was easy to fool, when I was little. And we open presents on the 24th, so it's the most important date. However no one has to work on the 25th and 26th of December... Edit: Oh well, Liz was faster. Nevermind, I think our answers probably add up quite well...  |
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Post by dane323 on Dec 3, 2009 16:16:01 GMT -5
Huh! Interesting, Lizkarita! I find differences in cultures like that fascinating. Over here, I don't think it's possible for me to separate in my mind Santa Claus from Christmas. It's such an ingrained piece of the holiday for Americans, especially for non-religious people. Kids here tend to believe Santa is real...until they're cruelly told otherwise by their hateful siblings or classmates some time between the ages of 6 - 9 usually. You often see sitcoms play off of that situation. (Jeez, writing it down, it really sounds awful to do that to kids from an outside perspective, lol.) But I think that's what makes the nostalgia surrounding Santa so ingrained for us. Even after the shocking revelation that he's not real, we can't separate him from the holiday itself. The Christmas Eve point is curious as well. December 25th is THE high point of the holiday season for us. December 24th is simply the last day to get your Christmas shopping done, midnight mass, and if you're lucky, your parents will let you open ONE present! haha Oh, and thank you, Placebo for your answer as well. That's actually very interesting that you can find both cultures in regards to the Santa Claus myth in the Germany/Austria region. The Christmas Eve tradition is kind of blowing my mind! LOL. I'm glad I know. If I was ever visiting in Germany over Christmas, I would've been horrified to see everyone opening all their presents the day before! I might have snatched up all the gifts and hidden them until the next morning for safe keeping! |
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Post by nahuela on Dec 3, 2009 16:43:41 GMT -5
Here in west germany we truly believe in the "christkind"...At least I did when I was a kid ;D My parents used to ring a bell after church on the 24th...we were told it was the christkind telling us that our presents are ready the 25th and 26th is more the kind of a family-visiting-day... and there´s no santa claus for us, but the Nikolaus, it´s the holiday on the 6th of decembre...don´t know if that exists in other countries...children put one of their shoes outside of the house the evening before and in the next morning there will be a surprise like sweets or small presents inside those shoes =) christmas season kind of officially starts after "Totensonntag" (the last sunday before advent starts)...at least that´s where you are officially allowed to decorate everything...of course no one really cares ;D |
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Post by ivaniv on Dec 3, 2009 16:59:36 GMT -5
A religious equivalent of Santa Claus is St Nikolaus who brings gifts to children on December 6th. The name would suggest that Santa Claus origins are in St Nikolaus although AFAIK there's nothing religious in SC. 24th December evening is actually important as a preparation for the next day, a birth of Christ. Probably it's a same principle as with Jewish sabbath that starts on Friday evening and not on Saturday morning. Somebody else might know better.
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Post by lolaruns on Dec 3, 2009 17:04:29 GMT -5
You do realize that he was invented by the Coca Cola company at the beginning of the 20th century? www.thecoca-colacompany.com/heritage/cokelore_santa.htmlAnd yes, the Bund is standard miltary service for all males. Or rather males can choose, either do half a year at The Bund (I think the idea is to give the rudimentary soldier training) or do social service (like help the elderly, cooking for convicts, etc), but that for twice as long. I dunno, I think it sets the mood quite well because to me that emphasizes more that you are celebrating the birth of christ (since there is a star that the kings and the shepherds follow in the story, I do assume that he really is supposed to have been born at night). I just find it so amusing when there was this whole "war on chrismas" argument, because really, can you get more pagan than "Mr and Mrs. Kringle live on the North Pole"? (nothing against pagan btw, just odd to see it brought up by supposed christian conservatives) |
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Post by sheepiefarm on Dec 3, 2009 17:28:46 GMT -5
Uhmm... - just to clarify The image was invented by caricaturist & political cartoonist Thomas Nast and used by the Coca-cola company in a hugely succesful advertising campaign. The notion of Santa Claus existed before then - CC just made his image famous |
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erica
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Post by erica on Dec 3, 2009 17:32:18 GMT -5
There's no need to become defensive about it. Celebrating Christmas December 24th has been around for centuries, but so has December 25th as a Christmas religious holiday. Both date back to 400AD. So 'he said she said' really gets us nowhere. Let's just take the religious aspect out and look at Christmas traditions of other countries. In Canada, as we tend to keep our traditions from our ethnic countries, the people who do celebrate Christmas usually do both. About 50% of the people I know celebrate on the Eve, and the rest celebrate on the Day. I tend to do both, celebrating with cousins and opening presents on the Eve, and then opening presents with immediate family in the Day. I was taught to believe in Santa, but he only filled the stockings - the presents were brought by family. |
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lizkarita
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Post by lizkarita on Dec 3, 2009 17:37:31 GMT -5
Here in west germany we truly believe in the "christkind"...At least I did when I was a kid ;D My parents used to ring a bell after church on the 24th...we were told it was the christkind telling us that our presents are ready the 25th and 26th is more the kind of a family-visiting-day... Aw, yeah, I also loved it when the bell rang and the door opened and we could see the Christmas tree and the presents. When I was little I always ran to the window to see if I could catch a glimpse of the Christkind, but I never did...  There were kids at my kindergarten who claimed they did see some of its feathers vanishing (we believed that the Christkind kinda looked like an angel), but when I found it it wasn't real, I knew they'd been lying. ;D And kids also write letters to the Christkind what they want for Christmas and we always put them in the window. And then sneaked down at night to see if they're gone. Ohh, I totally forgot about the shoe thing, because I've always had a designated "sock" where the stuff was being put. Looking forward to this weekend btw, because then I'll receive my Nikolaus bag. Yes, my mom still gives one to me and I love it!! Well, I don't think there's really a date where the holiday season starts. At least not that I know of any. There is, however, the tradition to have an Advent wreath with four candles and you light one every sunday from four weeks before christmas onwards. So maybe it starts then, IDK... Yeah, that's when advent starts, but we have Christmas stuff already before that, like the lightning and the punch/mulled wine booths. But when I was a kid, Christmas season started with the first advent Sunday, you're right. Or I probably remember it that way, because I just didn't see all the stuff, because I wasn't in the city centre that much... That's really interesting, I've always thought that all of the Germans believed in the Christkind. Maybe it's because of the proximity to Scandinavia? One always learns new things everyday. Edit: Just read that only the catholic parts of Germany believe in the Christkind and the protestant regions believe in Santa Claus. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christkind If you're interested. |
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Post by jasmineg on Dec 3, 2009 17:44:47 GMT -5
That's really interesting, I've always thought that all of the Germans believed in the Christkind. Maybe it's because of the proximity to Scandinavia? I grew up in the west of Germany and Christkind/Santa Claus was pretty interchangeable in my house. I'd think, being in the Catholic Rhineland and all, the Christkind would have been more important, but apparently not? I never believed in either though. My parents must have told me up front that neither was real. Poor disillusioned me.  |
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Post by sheepiefarm on Dec 3, 2009 17:47:40 GMT -5
In Scotland the main day for celebrating is the 25th. It was Santa who brought us our presents and he came down the chimney - lol - I wonder where on earth that myth started  ;D Celebrating the New Year is as big ( if not bigger) in Scotland. There is a tradition to go "first footing" after midnight - visit friends & neighbours and wish them a "guid new Year". It was considered good luck if the "first footer" was tall & dark. Because I'm over 6 foot with brown hair, I was always shoved in the door first Is the New Year a big celebration elsewhere? |
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lizkarita
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Post by lizkarita on Dec 3, 2009 17:58:12 GMT -5
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Post by dane323 on Dec 3, 2009 17:58:59 GMT -5
Wow, ok, this is so much info I didn't realize about Christmas! Awesome! Steffi & Ivan, it's interesting that you bring up St. Nikolaus. I've started watching the Dutch version of GZSZ recently (also very good, though I like Cenny better), and the past couple episodes had odd references to St. Nikolaus standing outside their door, and throwing down a shoe. I was like, "WTF does that mean??" ;D Lola, LOL, I had no idea Coca-Cola invented the modern image of Santa Claus! When I read your post (and before I read the article), my mind immediately went to trying to recall any references to Santa in 19th century literature. I thought, wait a minute, L. Frank Baum (most known for writing The Wizard of Oz books) wrote The Life & Adventures of Santa Claus in late 1800s or early 1900s (1902 specifically). Then, I also thought (sadly), "And on Little House On The Prairie, in the first Christmas episode, the littlest baby daughter pointed at a beard-covered-with-snow Mr. Edwards and yelled 'Santa!'." Now if THAT wasn't proof to the contrary, then I don't know what is! ;D Sheepie's explanation makes sense though. Still, I had no idea Coke popularized the Santa image so much in our culture. Huh! |
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Post by dane323 on Dec 3, 2009 18:09:09 GMT -5
It was Santa who brought us our presents and he came down the chimney - lol - I wonder where on earth that myth started ;D Sheepie, funny you should ask. I don't know if this is the first illustrated example (probably not), but the First Edition of Baum's The Life & Adventures of Santa Claus (again, around 1902 I guess) is shown here: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/LifeAndAdventuresOfSantaClaus.jpg |
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Post by tazzithedevil on Dec 3, 2009 18:09:53 GMT -5
am from the ruhrgebiet . it is the middle part of nrw and my parents told me that the weihnachtsmann (santa) and the christkind worked together the christkind is his little helper. i think it is because nrw is in the middle of germany so there lays the point were the north-german santa changes into the south-german christkind.
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Post by dane323 on Dec 3, 2009 18:19:00 GMT -5
Tazzi, cool, you had the best of both worlds! Lucky guy!!!
Btw, it just occurred to me (duh) that the stocking that Santa fills must be a carry-over of setting out the shoe for Christkind to fill. Jeez, they are both very similar aren't they? Santa basically just comes 19 days later than Christkind. I was raised Southern Baptist (Georgia), so I guess we weren't heavily religious when it came to the holidays since it was always much more about Santa, Frosty, Rudolph, the North Pole and such. Jesus & Church were always an after-thought. (We were bad religious people! No wonder I'm a non-believer now...)
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lizkarita
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Post by lizkarita on Dec 3, 2009 18:22:05 GMT -5
Btw, it just occurred to me (duh) that the stocking that Santa fills must be a carry-over of setting out the shoe for Christkind to fill. Jeez, they are both very similar aren't they? Santa basically just comes 19 days later than Christkind. Correction: Nikolaus fills the boots with little presents (nowadays mostly candy), Christkind brings the presents on December 24th. And, yeah, Santa does originate in Europe. He was brought over by the Dutch, it says so in the Anti-Santa article I posted earlier. |
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Post by tazzithedevil on Dec 3, 2009 18:24:48 GMT -5
and the big day is the 24th december the shops are closing at 2 pm and the family starts to decorate the cristmas tree .. and then the children look some tv (in my youth i looked every year drei nüsse für aschenbrödel - three nuts for aschenbrödel) and then so at 6 pm suddenly the bell was ringing and the chrismas circus starts singing unwrapping from gifts paper is lying everywhere on the floor ....
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Post by tazzithedevil on Dec 3, 2009 18:38:31 GMT -5
Tazzi, cool, you had the best of both worlds! Lucky guy!!! Btw, it just occurred to me (duh) that the stocking that Santa fills must be a carry-over of setting out the shoe for Christkind to fill. Jeez, they are both very similar aren't they? Santa basically just comes 19 days later than Christkind. I was raised Southern Baptist (Georgia), so I guess we weren't heavily religious when it came to the holidays since it was always much more about Santa, Frosty, Rudolph, the North Pole and such. Jesus & Church were always an after-thought. (We were bad religious people! No wonder I'm a non-believer now...) ;D yes - and so even if one of them will have an accident .... falling from the christmas sleigh ... the other one can bring the gifts ... we in the middle of germany love security... ;D ;D and we dont have christmas socks - ok today as a decoration but they have no use for gits or candys |
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nadle
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Post by nadle on Dec 3, 2009 18:52:10 GMT -5
I'm also from the rhineland but protestant and I always believed in the Christkind (not Santa Claus).
We also have the "Adventskalender" (normaly for children). So it's a kind of countdown to Christmas even.
You get them with chocolate or other things which are hidden behind little "doors". So starting with 1st of Dec. you have 24 doors to open.
Ah...and talking about St. Nikolaus - he is not alone. He has an "assistant" - Knecht Ruprecht. So if you were a good kid you will get a present from Nikolaus but if you were a bad kid your will be punished by Knecht Ruprecht. When I was little we had two neighbours who played that roles and I can tell you - every child in our neighbourhood was afraid of Ruprecht.
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Post by dane323 on Dec 3, 2009 23:05:11 GMT -5
Thanks, Everyone, for all of the fantastic responses and feedback. I never dreamed the Christmas holidays were so diversive between our cultures. It's very cool to realize! And here I was hoping just one person would answer me, lol! Also thanks, Lola, on the Bund & military service info earlier in the thread too for people who were wondering about that from my original post. Btw, if I don't get around to saying it later, I hope all of you posters & lurkers alike have a wonderful holiday season, no matter who comes knocking at your door or sliding down your chimney! May all your Cenny dreams come true! |
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cheerios
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Post by cheerios on Dec 4, 2009 2:28:52 GMT -5
What is the winter weather like there? Lots of snow all over? Or is it just cold?
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Post by neenski on Dec 4, 2009 4:57:04 GMT -5
I'm from the Rhineland myself, but my father's Catholic and my mom's Protestant (he's from the Münsterland and she's from North Germany, talk about a clash of the cultures *laughs*), so we grew up with the Weihnachtsmann (Santa Claus in German) and the Christkind, but tended more towards the former. Although I'm 27 now and not really a little kid anymore, my mom just sent me a Christmas calendar - 24 little cloth bags stuffed with various things (sweets or other little gimmicks) that are tied to a long band. I've just cut down the 4th bag - a little chocolate Santa Claus, tasty. *g* When I was little, we used to be off to the afternoon service at the church, starting at around 4pm, and when we were back at home, a little later the unpacking of the presents would start (our parents would ring a little bell after they had cunningly brought the presents downstairs and set them under the X-mas tree *g*). We always had potato salad and sausages afterwards (in some regions of Germany, you have goose - the potato salad is from my father's family, my mother's family used to have goose, but she went along with my father's tradition there). On the 25th and 26th, shops are closed (mostly) and there's more delicious food (like roast venison with red cabbage - hmmm). For some families, this is the time where they have a get-together with their extended family, we didn't because our relatives live so far apart, so we had just some lovely cosy days playing with our new presents. (And having to write thank-you letters to whomever we got our presents from...) cheerios: Our winter weather? Well, that depends on where you live. In Northern Germany (I'm living in Hamburg) it's mostly cold and wet (and windy), there's not much snow (which comes later, mostly around January/February - December's comparatively mild). It's about the same in Western Germany, I think. But in Eastern Germany and the South (the Alps!) there's quite often snow all throughout winter, also in the higher wood regions in Western Germany (like the Black Forest), it's also colder in these regions. |
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lizkarita
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Post by lizkarita on Dec 4, 2009 7:13:05 GMT -5
We always had potato salad and sausages afterwards (in some regions of Germany, you have goose - the potato salad is from my father's family, my mother's family used to have goose, but she went along with my father's tradition there). Oh, yeah, the traditional Christmas dinner! I've always wondered about the sausage/potato salad meal in Germany, it doesn't seem very festive to me... I don't think we have a real traditional meal in Austria, I think fish is very common (we always have salmon), but besides that I don't think there's a special meal. I live in Graz, which is in Styria, the south of Austria. Since it's pretty much flat country (?), we don't have much snow. Traditionally we have the first snow in November, which lasts only one day or a few days tops. We hardly have any snow in December, which really is a pity, since we haven't had a white Christmas in years.  Then there's January - freezing cold and we got the most snow in February, which is annoying, because by that time I'm already sick of snow and want spring to come. In other regions of Austria, they have snow until after the Easter holidays! |
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We have the "Christkind" (Christ-Child ?), who brings the presents. And indeed we celebrate Christmas on Christmas Eve on December 24th. Usually, for people who are religious, there's a mass in the evening and then you go home and celebrate Christmas. December 25th is not really a special day, it's a holiday, but our celebrating is done the day before. 
Guess I was easy to fool, when I was little.
;D
