maya
Full Member
Posts: 2,137
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Post by maya on Jun 20, 2009 15:03:58 GMT -5
WOW yours analysis of ollian relationship are so depressing
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Post by rhiannonhero on Jun 20, 2009 15:19:53 GMT -5
Well, I don't know if my analysis is really all that depressing, since I maintain that people with issues can, and in real life often do, have very happy, successful, healthy relationships for years and years and years, with the occasional big row to reset the dial, so to speak. I don't know any people who are happily married or in long term relationships who don't have personality conflicts with their spouse that they cope with on an ongoing basis. Though Lola's analysis certainly is a bummer. Kidding!!!!!!!  |
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Post by flippa on Jun 20, 2009 15:53:18 GMT -5
I'm a fan of Jo's lowriding crackalicious swimming trunks myself (last scene). PMSL- great description! |
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 21, 2009 1:02:07 GMT -5
No for me they would only stop being that if it was only resolved onesided. As long as they still balance each other I don't mind where the balance is located. Whether 0 insanity on both their sides or on 10000 measurements of insanity on both their sides, the whole thing is that they both need their degree of issues for equilibrium for it to work and for me to still consider it a love story; Let's hope the writers see it and treat it with a big dose of love  My take on freakout fanwanking though is mostly that in a way it's almost to emphasize the good point when they happen. Kinda, like when we were all freaking out about what it meant and analyzing and complaining that Christian hadn't said "I love you" to Olli last summer. That made it all the more sweeter when he finally did it. Had it been watched by somebody who wasn't aware that they don't say that to each other all the time, the scene would still have been sweet but it wouldn't have had quite the same power. If we have your nightmare visions of what the characters would (OMG, Christian is gonna just be like every other straight in a turning story, he will be mean to Olli and push him away and treat him like dirt even after they are together and keep denying Olli in public etc, like JP from HO or Sülo from MH) that makes us appreciate more when the characters do something that goes directly against those negative visions/expectations and makes one appreciate that it must have been a lot of effort for them. I think in a way it upset the storyline rhythm a lot that they didn't decently do the "Olli procures the No Limits" story and so much of it either happened rushed or off screen. That would have been an excellent way for Olli to show some weakness (and he did show some unease when dealing with Gregor and it was sometimes up to Christian to communnicate between the two and it would have been interesting to see his misery for a longer amount of time if it had taken longer for him to get the money). But even with most of it happening off screen yet somehow it still counts (in my eyes) as an "Christian supports Olli 100%" story. So balancewise I do feel that the ball is in Olli's court again, his turn again to show some complete love and devotion like Christian did in the No Limits story. (naturally another negative side effect of rushing the No Limits story is that I still have a hard time buying Olli's emotional attachment to the NL; to me it still seems too clinical, the way he treats it; like he would have acted the same way with any place they gave him rather than it being *his place* the way Schneiders is Charlie's place) Maybe that's where people currently differ in opinion, whether they feel like it is Olli's turn or Christian's turn storylinewise to prove themselves again. |
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Post by mona on Jun 21, 2009 7:30:13 GMT -5
never talking much about his family past and truly personal history. [ But that's not something we can take as a given fact. One conversation and we could hear that Olli did tell Christian a lot (off screen). Personally, I don't want Christian to be the one ending things if they do some day because he always had the "power" in his previous relationships. We know how Christian is when he's done with something and finds someone new. I would be more interested what it does to Christian if someone walks away from him. And Christan walking out because he has his strict morals wouldn't be "acceptable" for me. That's something he has to work on, too. If they do that kind of story I would want Olli to open up and Christian to forgive or to realize that he can't always have his strict moral. If Olli has deeper insecurities Christian should also be patient and try to "help" him. And not walk off when he senses that Olli is doing something wrong in his opinion. Because that would mean that Olli just stays in his insecurities and he did help Christian to work on himself. (I think they're both aware they have their flaws and if they would bother they wouldn't give up quickly) Especially Christian is lucky he found someone who's taking his insecurities so well because they were pretty hard at the beginning for Olli. I think that's my "problem". I can't see it that way that a relationship has to be balanced like that because that's too much "gegeneinander aufrechnchen" for me. SPOILER But since Christian has the bigger problem in the future I think it will go that way that he's the supporter again |
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Post by sheepiefarm on Jun 21, 2009 7:43:39 GMT -5
It would definitely be really interesting to see how Christian coped if he lost someone when he was still in love with them - in his previous relationships he has either been ready to move on or had someone waiting in the wings to take thier place.
In regard to Olli taking the time to deal with Christian's insecurities - that was primarily because Christian allowed him in - yes Olli had to push quite hard but ultimately I think Christian welcomed the fact that he could talk to Olli.
When it comes to Olli's insecurities - it's a completely different kettle of fish - Olli clams up or runs away or changes the subject. His biggest fear is letting anyone in - hence the reason he bottles things up, becomes completely irrational and has sulks & temper tantrums.
Olli loves others far stronger than he allows himself to be loved.
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 21, 2009 7:55:39 GMT -5
If I remember correctly didn't Nico walk out on him? I actually think that both his relationships with Nico and Coco were pretty equal (including similar degrees of love and not-love).
Oh actually I would fully expect Christian to be supportive. My guess is just that Olli probably thinks that Christian would judge him on his past. I actually expect Christian would be understanding of his past and would be a lot more morally pissed off if he felt/found out that Olli was lying to him in the here and now.
I would expect it to go something like when Coco opened up to Christian about her trauma (sure it was a pointless trauma, but the point is that Christian was supportive). I actually do think that Christian is quite ready to do the "warts and all" kind of thing once he has reached a certain level of relationship.
Like I said, I don't think that Christian would ever walk out on Olli because of Olli's insecurities, I just think that Olli fears he would. If Christian ever walked out, I think it would much more likely be one of those "It's not what you did, it's that you lied about it/played me for a fool" kind of things that VL loves rather much (how many bets that this is exactly what Lydia will tell Sebastian?).
But so far we have never seen Olli in that position and because of this it is meaninful. It would be like during the time when Christian hadn't said I Love You yet people claiming that well maybe he has already said it off screen.
Thus far Olli has consistently been portrayed as somebody who doesn't do that (reveal vulnerable things about his past). And he has consistently been portrayed as somewhat evasive and intentionally bland on the subject. So yeah, I think it is a fairly safe bet that it hasn't happened and I will assume till the show tells me otherwise because to me that is more consistent with Olli's character, that there has never been anything resembling Christian's father conversations from Olli's side. Even though there were PLENTY of opportunities. Like Olli talking about his childhood and why Olivia is therefore so important to him. Or explain why having and opening the No Limits is so important to him. Instead he stays vague on the subject.
I'm sorry, a relationship where one has all the power and the other has none, where one is controlling and the other has no way to fight back would be horrible and quite abusive. Especially since nobody can sell me on the idea that Christian actually WANTS a relationship like that. To me that fits neither with the way his relationships were in the past nor with the way he fell for Olli. So to me that could never be happy relationship if somebody has to be turned into something unrecognizable and ito something they don't want. It would be like Olli being turned into Tom's little Hausfrau just so Tom can be happy with the excuse of "Well, it's for love!". To me that would be verbiegen as opposed to growing together. And that would be a horrible act on Christian's character. There is no way I could ever see Olli as a non-evil character if he did that and/or let that happen. If you love somebody you don't want them to turn into willenlos, personality free, resistance free puppet. That is not a person. If you take somebody and then obsessive change them by removing everything that makes them unique then why not just abduct somebody random from the street and lock them in a cage, it would boil down to the same thing.
I don't think that that is Oli, but the whole point is that if there were trends along those lines that would be an incredibly disturbing situation and Christian in this situation SHOULD walk out. And relationshipwise, Olli can't always sit on the safe defensive forever, something has to give eventually. You can't just have one person giving out personal things and the other never returning anything of value. Eventually that is going to feel unsatisfying to the other person.
So yes, I do think that something's gotta give from Olli's side eventually for it to still count as a love story.
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Post by mona on Jun 21, 2009 8:16:39 GMT -5
In regard to Olli taking the time to deal with Christian's insecurities - that was primarily because Christian allowed him in - yes Olli had to push quite hard but ultimately I think Christian welcomed the fact that he could talk to Olli. But that's also why I think Christian should "push" and not turn away. It's not like Olli hides something but Christian doesn't seem to ask? Christian is making it easy because he isn't really interested. In some way I think they both aren't types for discussing the past too much or to discuss "What if's". Only if it comes up that Olli still has a problem from the past it would matter. I like that they're more the "living here and now" characters though. SPOILER If they use Andi to "push" Olli and Christian to talk about Ollis past I would find that good.He wasn't in love with Nico that much. The reason she broke off was that Christian already was interested in Coco. But it's not like that? I just think sometimes the other one gives more for some time but I don't see how it could have a pattern where Christian is helping and then Olli and then Christian again. I think Christian has "power" too. I think Olli was very afraid that Christian would end things after the critic fight and that means to me that Christian had some power. I expect it like that: Christian is mad again after Olli says he has to go and then Olli is afraid Christian could be really mad (again). It's Olli who is the air in that situation and Christian has a bit more power (again). The way you described it with the "power" was Ansgalie for in the worst times where he hit her, fired her, got her into rehab against her will and had sex with other woman and she had to agree. That's unhealthy and has to do with more power, tending to use that power and being abusive. Even when Ollian have a "lighter" version of something like that they don't want to use it and try to work it out with respect. |
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 21, 2009 8:46:37 GMT -5
But that's the whole point of discussion. That Christian's power at the moment comes from his temprament. If if people honestly wanted to take that away then it would be a onesided and powerless and highly disturbing relationship. Hence, to me if people talk about how Christian needs to give up his moralizing and his temprament what they are really talking about is taking away his power. And if only Christian's power gets taken away, then yes, that would be a disturbing and horrible onesided relationship, no matter how well Olli means it. Just like it would be a horrible onesided relationship if Olli showed himself in prime vulnerability and Christian was still a tempramental and moralistic and Olli was the helpless moralistic punching bag. But at this junction Olli has a lot of power (and has even sacrificed some of the gracefullness and lovingness in how he deals with Christian) and yes people are still talking about how Christian needs to have even more power taken away? Espeically since he will soon have neither a job nor a dream. They might just as well rip out any bone in his body and permanently paraplegic. At that point will be in the creepy situation of the only one with power and in that context it becomes even more and more disturbing that as sheepie pointed out that Olli has gotten a lot less sweet and loving and accomodating when using his power. Just deciding things over Christian's head, frequently no longer asking for Christian's opinion. And that would be a tyrant. If Christian doesn't even have the power to walk out anymore if Olli orders him around, what kind of relationship is that? How can anybody consider that loving or healthy? You choose to be with somebody because you love them. If there is no choice anymore then it's just a mockery of love. Creating a situation of complete dependancy? Creepy in the highest extent and I hope nobody would actually go for that. And the person who creates that dependency is actually a lot more creepy than the person who is dependant. Because one wonders for what kind of person one would have to be to actually want that. It's certainly not what I would consider love. If you love somebody, you should want to see them flourish, not to want them be beaten down and be obedient to make things easier for you. Which is why I hope that Olli actually tells Christian tomorrow that he thinks Christian would be better off in a different job. Rather than suggesting that Christian have no job at all. That would just be too many shades of Tom. Though I think the upside would be that I don't think that VL has never ever portrayed not having a job and just sitting around as anything but big, big, big trouble (idle minds and all that...). Well, it was an odd time. Nico broke up with him because she thought Christian and Coco loved each other/were meant to be, while Christian was mostly WTF are you talking about? He then went into the woods, grieved for a while and then came back down to go fetch Coco after deciding that maybe Nico did have a point after all. |
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Post by rhiannonhero on Jun 21, 2009 9:55:28 GMT -5
Well, it was an odd time. Nico broke up with him because she thought Christian and Coco loved each other/were meant to be, while Christian was mostly WTF are you talking about? He then went into the woods, grieved for a while and then came back down to go fetch Coco after deciding that maybe Nico did have a point after all. That just amuses me sooooooooooooo much because that is, omg, so incredibly in character for Christian. Even letting other people tell him who he loves! I've joked with a friend of mine that the only reason Christian unlocked the door for Olli after the Rick-ass-grabby jealousy night was because Olli basically told Christian, "You're in love with me, fool! Can't you see that?" And Christian, being Christian, was like, "Hmm, I think you might be right." Hilarious! Anyway, not that that is actually what happened, but I wouldn't count it out! |
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Post by lolaruns on Jun 21, 2009 10:14:08 GMT -5
I always thought that that makes the Christian/Nico relationship interesting in retrospect (even though it was not terribly unique). Because she was the only one he picked without them being friends first for a longer time/without there being any outside components (I love Coco because Coco is more loyal). Though one could argue that maybe he went for Nico in the decision between Nico/Coco for shallow "Well, I saw her first" reasons ;D Though I still think it's noteworthy that based on that he still stuck with her a surprisingly long time even in the face of Coco being there as well. You gotta love the progression though: Nov 27th: Thore's first airdate. Nico and Coco meet Christian on the boss and are instantly smitten. Later Nico runs into Christian at No Limits. Nov 28th/29th: Nico is supposed to show Christian the city. Instead they start squabbling/arguing because he cancels last minute (Nico=feisty) . Later they both are working together at No Limits.
Dec 4th: Nico and Coco are squabbling over Christian. But secretly Christian has already decided on Nico.
Dec 5th/6th: Coco figures out that Christian was in jail and confronts him. He trusts her with his secret. She is over the moon, but then realizes he only sees her as a good pal.
Dec 8th: Coco kisses a non-plussed Christian, but Christian thinks of Nico.
Dec 11th: Coco lies to Nico and claims Christian was kissing her rather than the other way around. Nico gives Christian the cold shoulder. Christian is pissed at Coco's deception.
Dec 12th: Coco feels guilty and sets up Christian and Nico. Even though she! has! to! deny! her! feelings!
Dec 15th-19th: Christian tells Gregor the truth about jail and after a fight seeks comfort with Coco. Nico is disturbed by their closeness and confronts Christian. Christian finally tells Nico the truth about jail. Nico is sad that he didn't tell her first.
Dec 28th/29th: Nico and Christian have a fight because he thinks she told other people that he was in jail. After a clearing conversation Christian confesses to Nico that he loves her. Will Nico permit those feelings in herself? *dundundun*
January 2nd: "Christian and Nico give in to their feelings" and become a couple. Coco is sad but pretends to be happy for them.
January 3rd: Christian confides in Nico that having a sport equipment store is his big dream. Gregor is skeptical.
Some promos from that time:
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I guess I always give Christian's props for staying with Nico as persistently as he did because to me the storyline was soooo heavily tilted towards "OMG, doesn't he see that Coco loves him so much more" and Nico being undeserving.
My favorite promo is definitely the ZOMG, will Coco let Nico die in a ditch just to get to Christian? one  |
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Post by brownsugar on Jun 21, 2009 22:27:02 GMT -5
Wow, just read over the posts...some really great opinions and analysis of the personalities of Christian and Olli.
After watching the episode quite a number of times now, I think I'm really to throw my 2pence in.
What stuck out for me the most was when Olli decided to tell Christian about not mixing relationships with work. I think the moment Olli went to tell Christian about no longer working at NL he was extremely nervous, even though it appeared as though he had this nonchalant attitude about it. Notice how he couldn't even face Christian when he told him. And even though he spoke in a casual manner, you just know he's expecting an earthquake reaction from Christian, if not...then he's more out of touch than I realized. I'm sure Olli was pissing himself as those words left his mouth. And i'm sure he thought the whole thing through over night. Now granted, it does make Olli look unsympathetic, even mean the way he was just lying there, and then casually tells the love of his life it's better if he remove himself from the job he's occupied for a couple of years because he decided it's better for their relationship. It really came off horrible.
And Christian isn't a frigging idiot either, he immediately caught on to what Olli was suggesting. And that look on his face at the end was just devastating. It was a mixture of shock and disbelief. It's no wonder Olli couldn't look at him at that very moment.
Even more troubling is how Christian will become instantly unemployed. He has a prison record and doesn't really have a skill so it's not going to be easy getting another job. I'm just hoping in Monday's episode we get to see some decent conversation between them about how Christian is suppose to make his living and contribute to rent, food, etc now he is unemployed. But I suspect Olli will once again make the decision to support Christian while he completes his sports studies. I guess Olli will figure that NL is doing pretty well so he can afford to support both himself and Christian Still, Christian is going to feel dehumanized and put down by the man he loves.
Now, I do think it is better that Christian and Olli not work together because it's becoming a real obstacle to their relationship. It's just the way Olli more or less gave Christian the pink slip. Why didn't he wait until they returned back from the beach, and then they could sit down together in the flat and talk things through. This was not the way to do it because it came off cold and heartless.
I feel really bad for Christian right now. He even had the dignity to prepare something lovely for him and Olli and continued to apologize at the flat and even at the beach for his behavior. He admitted fault and did it with grace. He deserved better than the way Olli sprang the sacking on him. And that's a shame because Olli has been a loving and understand boyfriend to Christian, up until now. There just seems to be this arrogance about him since becoming partner at NL, and it ain't pretty. But he should be careful, because as much as Christian loves him, he isn't a doormat either and does have his limit.
As for the flirting which triggered all this off in the first place...Olli needs to give his boyfriend respect. When he is with Christian just don't flirt or make it so obvious. When he isn't with him, then...what Christian doesn't see won't hurt him.
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Post by mona on Jun 22, 2009 10:10:14 GMT -5
I don't know if Olli suggesting to "stay home" is that horrible because Christian has an idea of his future with his studies and boxing. It's not like Christian didn't complain about the time issue himself. (I think Sarah concentrated on her piano skills and didn't have a normal soap work either after Königsbrunn) If Olli offers it I think it's not horrible but he has to give Christian a choice. Like: Do you want to go?/Do you agree? and then it's also Christians turn to figure something out. Olli can't tell him what he should do then (I think that would be more creepy to me if Olli tells him exactly where to work/what to do) I often feel like there's a fine line about pride and false pride (especially in Christians past) I would like to know how they pay anyway these days with one room. Or is Christian not paying because the house belongs to Gregor? Christian did say work trouble can "kill" love and Olli is more important to him than his NL career if they can afford it for some time of course, that's also the question. Olli could also suggest he should look for something new but he still has the NL until he found something.
The first scene today won't be rational I fear and I expect something like Christian saying how he should pay and Olli answering it will be "okay".
SPOILER
I wondered if the thing with Olivias rent could mean that Olli is paying for everything now and Christian is "taking" it in his depressing phase for granted and that's exactly what Olli didn't want and he tells Christian to do something. Then again he wants him to rest more anyway so it's unlikely he will be like Leo and tell him to do something
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Post by rhiannonhero on Jun 22, 2009 10:53:24 GMT -5
Something that I haven't seen anyone else address is the fact that had Christian not been Olli's lover, and he had behaved as he did to that guest, Olli would be entirely and completely remiss in not firing him. I think that the complicating factor of their relationship can't be ignored, obviously, when discussing it, but all of these comments about how Christian should have a choice about staying at NL after his outburst toward an important guest are, imo, leaving out the issue that Christian is not, in fact, Olli's partner in NL, and Olli can't have an unpredictable employee like that. When Christian says that he won't over-react like that again? Um, I call bullshit. He doesn't want to think that he will, but he absolutely would...eventually, when he's had too much. I have no doubt about it. And who knows what that trigger would be? Was the way Olli handled it best? Of course not. But the question of whether or not Christian stays shouldn't be be answered by Christian alone, imo. It is Olli's responsibility to be an employer here, and I think that Christian's behavior probably warrants being fired. What his status of lover requires, though, was to be sat down and talked to like an adult about it, not have it dropped like a bombshell during his lovely day with his lover. Of course, I don't think Olli intended to tell him in that way, but it simply happened as it did. Anyway, I think Olli has made the right choice for both of them, but it was, as has been the case lately, handled all wrong.  ETA: brownsugar, I really enjoyed your comments, especially the observation about Olli turning away, etc. I agree with your take on that. |
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Post by degenhard on Jun 22, 2009 14:22:17 GMT -5
Thank you for that nice video and these lovely pictures, Ivan !
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