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Post by GayTime on Sept 5, 2008 19:11:04 GMT -5
using my dictatorial admin powers to stop this childish discussion right now. easy mistake, as the rest of the spoilers just read like the official text. nothing to get worked up about as if someone had insulted a real life person you actually know. moving on!
if you have serious concerns about a post, instead of starting a flame war in a thread- please PM that person directly or ask a mod for assistance.
thanks!
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Post by Bonobochick on Sept 5, 2008 22:08:47 GMT -5
So I watched and poor JP. When Niall found him in the alley, he was in shock. *thinks back to JP calling Kieron sweetheart trying to wake him up* His pain and guilt were palpable. And part of me wanted him to feel guilty for how poorly he treated Kieron because I can still hear "not my John Paul" echoing looking at JP. That Kieron begged for JP's life with his dying breath even after thinking JP didn't want him but Craig was just wrenching. John Paul is still my favorite gay character but I don't care for how he's acted the past week. Anyhoo, Niall breaking down with Myra, I thought he might call her mother til Myra interrupted him but that was powerful as well. Myra turning her back on JP. I understand her disappointment in his behavior but turning her back was too much. When even Mercedes thinks someone is being too harsh and needs to dial it down, you know it's bad. Craig. Oy... Craig. I like Craig but he should have left John Paul alone to mourn Kieron. He just seemed like all he wanted was for JP to tell him that it wasn't [Craig's] fault; that Kieron killed himself(!) before knowing he and JP had slept together. It was such a huge step back from the emotional growth I thought he'd had while away.
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sozment
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Post by sozment on Sept 5, 2008 22:17:43 GMT -5
I didn't see it that way at all. I saw it as Craig trying to make JP understand that it wasn't his fault either (meaning JP). That they didn't do anything to cause such an act by Kieron. I think Craig knew that JP was blaming himself and he had to say that. I would have been saying the exact same thing, had I been in that situation. I would have been trying to get that person to understand that they were in no way at fault...and since Craig was a huge part of that ...then by default, he was trying to get forgiveness as well. (if you can call it that)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2008 23:52:42 GMT -5
Ok, it’s official. I think Barry wants to kill me. He’s so damn good. Making me feel slightly sorry for him in spite of everything, especially during that hug? Fantastic bastard! I'm with you, Bonobochick. Myra yet again displays her own version of unconditional motherly love. No wonder all of her kids have such selfishness issues. From Kieron’s (apparent) friends (hey Niall!), fine; from K’s family, ok; heck, from disgruntled JP/K fans, I sort of see it; but from his own damn mother? Just awful. I guess the world revolves around her hurting. I oddly felt more this episode, like I was finally allowed to grieve or something. It was heavy, but I felt it flowed better. I don’t know how else to put it. They're finally willing to show C’s interactions with Steph only when it has to be all about JP, huh? Speaking of which, maybe we’re supposed to glean from all of this that JP/C just have bad karma on top of bad timing; maybe when they dare to give it a go again next year, there’ll be a mass murder around the corner or something. No intent to be insensitive, I'm just unwilling to take this way too seriously at this point I guess. This is entertainment after all. Man, people’s emotions are really running high over this show. I feel like the real “winners” are non hardcore fans of the two damned pairings and of course the HO team who are probably high-fiving each other as we speak.
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Post by shanuti on Sept 6, 2008 4:53:36 GMT -5
This episode hit me pretty hard because James Sutton's and Barry Sloane's acting was just hauntingly believable. How on earth, after what Niall just did to my favorite character on the show, Barry Sloane can make me feel sorry for Niall is beyond me, but I did.
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lala
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Post by lala on Sept 6, 2008 14:45:53 GMT -5
that "sweetheart" bit really got to me.... ahh. this entire thing is just too much. I both love it and loathe it when a piece of fiction can get to me so much.
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Post by jsg03jd on Sept 6, 2008 15:16:36 GMT -5
I'm still not over processing Kieron's death and Jake's fantastic performance. "Not my John Paul" resonates over and over in my head...
Should be interesting how this plays out. Either John Paul comes off as an insensitive jerk, his relationship with Craig is really the be all and end all of his life and to heck with everything else, including grieving and mourning for Kieron or... I don't know how else John Paul can come out of this smelling like roses, really.
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lala
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Post by lala on Sept 6, 2008 15:38:19 GMT -5
it's true.
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Post by caitlinp on Sept 6, 2008 16:09:24 GMT -5
I'm still not over processing Kieron's death and Jake's fantastic performance. "Not my John Paul" resonates over and over in my head... Should be interesting how this plays out. Either John Paul comes off as an insensitive jerk, his relationship with Craig is really the be all and end all of his life and to heck with everything else, including grieving and mourning for Kieron or... I don't know how else John Paul can come out of this smelling like roses, really. I agree, and that's why I don't understand what the writers are trying to do. Shouldn't they be writing a story that redeems both John Paul and Craig, and makes them the heros of the story. How can they be seen as a super couple given all that's happened. Kieron went out looking like a saint in comparison to every other character on the show, but especially when compared to John Paul and Craig. I have no idea why the writers decided to tear down John Paul's character and not Kieron's (even thouh I really didn't want that to happen.)
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lala
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Post by lala on Sept 6, 2008 17:09:03 GMT -5
I've never been one to say this, but I just don't see how a JP/C reunion can be approached in any way that redeems JP at this point. I don't think they've made him some horrible monster creature and I do still see him as human. In fact, I think however stupid, what he's done up to this point forgivable. I can see a scenario where JP sleeps with C out of grief or something, as horrible as that is, but it wouldn't ruin the character for me, but if they were actually to, like, ride off into the sunset together, I just don't know how i'd feel. I guess all there is to do is wait and see how it was handled and if they decide to get them back together.
It's not the possibility/idea of him getting back with C that bothers me as much as how horribly inappropriate (in every sense) it seems.
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Post by jaymac74 on Sept 6, 2008 18:07:46 GMT -5
I can honestly say that I feel that JP was grieving for both Kieron and himself. He knows that he loved that man (not in the same way that he loves Craig, but it was still love that the couple shared) and that he treated him badly for the past couple of days, because he couldn't be honest with him. Of course, he's going to be grieving for himself. He feels guilt. He should feel guilt. Then, you have Craig, replying with an "Oh, please", because JP needs to have time by himself to deal with his mother kicking him out of the house, because of what they did the night before? He (JP) is disgusted with himself. What does it really matter if Kieron didn't know about JP's plan to let him know about those two becoming a couple again? That's not going to absolve the feelings of guilt that JP's going to have. He would be inhumane if he didn't have feelings of guilt. He was with Kieron for 6 months. Craig did not say 'Oh please' he said 'please' which gives it an entirely different connotation.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Sept 6, 2008 18:15:05 GMT -5
I don't think that it does give it a different context, because at that point, it shouldn't have mattered if Kieron knew about JP being back with Craig or not. It should have been about Craig being there for JP. Why did the writers have Craig questioning his sister if Kieron knew about him and JP? As others have stated, Craig could have told him that I'll be here, whenever you need me and then let him be. Why did we need to have a scene of Steph pulling him away from JP, while Niall's there to try and calm JP down? I know that you guys want to defend Craig and his actions during this time, but I just don't see how he wasn't selfish at that point. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this topic. Or, I could just be delusional. Then, you have Craig, replying with an "Oh, please", because JP needs to have time by himself to deal with his mother kicking him out of the house, because of what they did the night before? He (JP) is disgusted with himself. What does it really matter if Kieron didn't know about JP's plan to let him know about those two becoming a couple again? That's not going to absolve the feelings of guilt that JP's going to have. He would be inhumane if he didn't have feelings of guilt. He was with Kieron for 6 months. Craig did not say 'Oh please' he said 'please' which gives it an entirely different connotation.
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Post by Bonobochick on Sept 6, 2008 19:19:44 GMT -5
I've never been one to say this, but I just don't see how a JP/C reunion can be approached in any way that redeems JP at this point. I don't think they've made him some horrible monster creature and I do still see him as human. In fact, I think however stupid, what he's done up to this point forgivable. I can see a scenario where JP sleeps with C out of grief or something, as horrible as that is, but it wouldn't ruin the character for me, but if they were actually to, like, ride off into the sunset together, I just don't know how i'd feel. I guess all there is to do is wait and see how it was handled and if they decide to get them back together. It's not the possibility/idea of him getting back with C that bothers me as much as how horribly inappropriate (in every sense) it seems. Reading your post, I went back through the spoiler comments when it was first announced that Craig was coming back. I found some thoughts I had on things: gaydaytime.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=hollyoaks&action=display&thread=60&page=39#23322It's like everything I feared is playing out. Besides the drama on the blog and people acting 10 years old wanting Kieron's photo removed , which was tacky & incredibly immature IMO, I just don't see how any of the characters are going to come out of this looking well. Actually, Kieron did with his last few breaths prove that he was a worthy, compassionate man. He came out well. I am not sure how the remaining characters will come out but it's not promising at this point. The actors are all doing a great job with the material but this ending is leaving a really sour taste in my mouth, mostly with how JP is behaving because I expected better from him considering everything he went through coming out and the relationship with Craig the first time around. It's riveting drama, definitely, but it's nothing I feel like cheering on. When I first watched McDean play out, after the airport scene, I wanted a Sunset Ending very much because I adore the character of JP and wanted him to have what he wanted most (though I didn't care enough to actively campaign for it) but now I am starting to think be careful what you wish for cause you just might get it. Cause what I've seen play out? I never wanted that. I wanted something better. I wanted something that wouldn't tarnish the legacy of the McDean story nor shit on JP/K. I guess I was asking for too much.
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lala
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Post by lala on Sept 6, 2008 19:38:32 GMT -5
I just read your linked post, B-chick, and (I think obviously) I agree with what you've said. The reasons why it upsets me so are exactly as you've stated. I really normally don't get so torn up about such things. I think the last tv show that left me thinking about it for days was the end of Buffy. Oh well. It's just TV, right?
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Post by jaymac74 on Sept 7, 2008 1:02:24 GMT -5
Denise, the writers had Craig questioning Steph, cos he was frightened that K might have committed suicide over him and JP:
1. because he didn't want that on his conscience 2. because he did not want JP to carry that burden either and he wanted to be able to reassure JP that it hadn't been about that. IMO a perfectly understandable reaction. They were not cheating as K had broken up with JP.
As far as 'please/oh please' are concerned - totally different connotations - one is dismissive and unwarranted under the circumstances - the other is asking, both to be allowed to comfort JP and also not to be banished - it was then followed by 'I'll wait as long as it takes'.
Maybe his timing was off? - but his intentions were genuine - as he said to Steph he knew how upset JP would be and both times he saw JP, his first words were to offer help - hardly selfish.
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mj128
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Post by mj128 on Sept 7, 2008 1:22:10 GMT -5
Well Denise, I'm going to venture a guess that Craig isn't going through life hoping that he (or JP) will be the cause of someone taking their own life. I mean, who on earth would want that? So, of course, learning that Kieron had died supposedly by suicide the same day JP was going to tell Kieron about he and Craig would naturally lead to the question of did Kieron kill himself after hearing about JP and Craig reunited. You call that "selfish"? Craig was there for JP, Denise. Instead of adding words to what the characters said in this episode like you chose to do in an earlier post, I'll stick to what was actually said: Craig to Steph: "I've got to go and see him. No, I do Steph. I need to talk to him, to be with him. I know how upset he must be." Craig to JP (and family): "If there's anything I can do." Craig to JP: "I know you're hurting. I want to try and help." "It's not our fault. You never told him." Craig loves JP with all his heart and he knows JP will be hurting very much at this time. What he wants to do is be there and comfort JP in his time of need. Apparently, you call someone who sees the love of their life completely devastated and wanting to be with them to comfort and support them, selfish. I suppose ignoring them and not trying to comfort them and instead leaving them to their family would be better? Hmm, that argument doesn't really fly in this case seeing as though JP's mother, who should be there for JP during this time, throws him out of the house! Good thing Craig did offer his support, then, wouldn't you say, Denise? Otherwise, the only person still offering comfort and support to JP in his time of need would be Niall and I think it's safe to say his intentions are less than honorable. I don't think that it does give it a different context, because at that point, it shouldn't have mattered if Kieron knew about JP being back with Craig or not. It should have been about Craig being there for JP. Why did the writers have Craig questioning his sister if Kieron knew about him and JP? As others have stated, Craig could have told him that I'll be here, whenever you need me and then let him be. Why did we need to have a scene of Steph pulling him away from JP, while Niall's there to try and calm JP down? I know that you guys want to defend Craig and his actions during this time, but I just don't see how he wasn't selfish at that point. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this topic. Or, I could just be delusional. Craig did not say 'Oh please' he said 'please' which gives it an entirely different connotation.
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Post by Bonobochick on Sept 7, 2008 1:44:22 GMT -5
I am going to step in and say that in the past two days there have been posts that are too personal in nature in this forum. GayTime already posted a warning about this yesterday. People are not always going to agree but folks need to make sure the line is not being crossed between respectful disagreements and wank. If posts start falling into the latter category, the posts will be deleted by a mod.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2008 3:32:26 GMT -5
I am not sure how the remaining characters will come out but it's not promising at this point. The actors are all doing a great job with the material but this ending is leaving a really sour taste in my mouth, mostly with how JP is behaving because I expected better from him considering everything he went through coming out and the relationship with Craig the first time around. It's riveting drama, definitely, but it's nothing I feel like cheering on. When I first watched McDean play out, after the airport scene, I wanted a Sunset Ending very much because I adore the character of JP and wanted him to have what he wanted most (though I didn't care enough to actively campaign for it) but now I am starting to think be careful what you wish for cause you just might get it. Cause what I've seen play out? I never wanted that. I wanted something better. I wanted something that wouldn't tarnish the legacy of the McDean story nor shit on JP/K. I guess I was asking for too much. I see a few of your points, Bonobochick. On one hand, I’m comforted in my original opinion (as stated in my very first post a few months ago) that I would have been majorly disappointed if they had made C do a perfect 180 in regards to his relationship with JP only after 1 year or even 2, as I just found it rather unrealistic. On the other hand, the apparent lack of major change in their dynamics (and C's apparent tendency to fall back into the old pattern when all else fails because it's worked before) might not really bode well for the future for them. Yet, it also seems to strangely confirm my previously stated theory that the “ending” we’ll get for this couple will not be a “sunset ending”, no matter how it turns out. So, I don’t feel cheated mainly because despite always liking the JP/C for what it was, I never envisioned C being completely "changed" as being realistic, nor did I ever wish for a “sunset ending” (those two guys still have realistically years of real growth to accomplish). In sum, some unfortunate turns in a few respects, but it’s still in my world of making sense, even if I understand that it means less than satisfactory results for fans of this ship so far. I do find though that while he was definitely allowed to shine, the goodbye storyline for JS has not been - so far - as well thought out, developed and finalized around his character as it could/should have been. It’s more worked around Niall’s story. GB’s goodbye storyline was better crafted, and the focus on him (and his storyline mates – Sarah & JP – of course) was more obvious IMO. The storyline itself didn't make the character look great in the eyes of many throughout (almost similar complaints for the current storyline in regards to JP now), but it still found my utter appreciation and my focus. I was sucked in more and there was a more personal "feel" of the characters and the inner changes they experienced, without major distractions. There was more care for the handling of the characters themselves; it was almost at times characters first, story second, not the other way around. There were also pacing issues, sure, but much less noticeable. Then again, the JP/C stuff was also more "new" last year, but still, I don't know.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Sept 7, 2008 4:57:03 GMT -5
Jaymac, I still stand by my opinion, that whether or not Kieron KNEW about JP and Craig getting back together, JP will still feel guilt. Yes, Craig doesn't want that guilt on his and JP's consciences, but since I'm focused on the JP character, he will have that guilt. He had guilt when Hannah was dealing with her eating disorder. He had guilt, when he was cheating on Spike with Craig. He had guilt, when he was 'the other man', while Craig was still with Sarah. He had guilt, when he OUTED his affair with Craig, during his engagement party with Sarah. He had guilt, when he left Craig at the airport back in September 2007. He had guilt, when he started his affair with Kieron. He had guilt, when their affair was found out by Myra and OUTED during Steph and Max's wedding. So, JP's not going to feel guilt NOW, during the initial days of Kieron's 'suicide'? He's not going to feel 'guilt', because all the while during his relationship with Kieron, who he loved, he also loved Craig? I'm hopeful, that the truth of Kieron's death, will be revealed to him in October, but JP will always have that burden about Kieron's death, because that's who the character is. Jaymac - I also still stand by my opinion of Craig being selfish during this time. Did he really think that JP would want to be initially comforted by the man he was with, during the time that Kieron 'committed suicide'? Regardless if you think they weren't cheating, because the relationship between JP and Kieron was over with, that's not how JP views it. Denise, the writers had Craig questioning Steph, cos he was frightened that K might have committed suicide over him and JP: 1. because he didn't want that on his conscience 2. because he did not want JP to carry that burden either and he wanted to be able to reassure JP that it hadn't been about that. IMO a perfectly understandable reaction. They were not cheating as K had broken up with JP. As far as 'please/oh please' are concerned - totally different connotations - one is dismissive and unwarranted under the circumstances - the other is asking, both to be allowed to comfort JP and also not to be banished - it was then followed by 'I'll wait as long as it takes'. Maybe his timing was off? - but his intentions were genuine - as he said to Steph he knew how upset JP would be and both times he saw JP, his first words were to offer help - hardly selfish.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Sept 7, 2008 5:11:13 GMT -5
MJ128 - I know that Craig doesn't want that burden (Kieron's 'suicide') to be on his and JP's shoulders "going through their lives". I think the same of JP, but it will, because that's a trait of the character of JP. I also don't doubt that Craig and JP love each other. That's never been an issue with me. What IS an issue with me, is that with all of the love that these two have for each other, they still don't understand each other. Does Craig really think that JP would want to initially seek comfort from the man that he was in bed with during the time of Kieron 'committing suicide"? Yes, Kieron and JP were "over with" while he was in bed with Craig, but JP doesn't feel like "they were over with". He was seeking him out, before Craig came over to the McQueen's asking for "just 10 minutes" of his time, because "he owed him that". JP was trying to contact Kieron during that time. Conviently, he just couldn't seem to get himself directly over to Kieron and Niall's apartment. All he could do was text, which fit into the storyline of him being at home, so Craig could find him there. IMO - Everything is setup to be very convient for this SE. Well Denise, I'm going to venture a guess that Craig isn't going through life hoping that he (or JP) will be the cause of someone taking their own life. I mean, who on earth would want that? So, of course, learning that Kieron had died supposedly by suicide the same day JP was going to tell Kieron about he and Craig would naturally lead to the question of did Kieron kill himself after hearing about JP and Craig reunited. You call that "selfish"? Craig was there for JP, Denise. Instead of adding words to what the characters said in this episode like you chose to do in an earlier post, I'll stick to what was actually said: Craig to Steph: "I've got to go and see him. No, I do Steph. I need to talk to him, to be with him. I know how upset he must be." Craig to JP (and family): "If there's anything I can do." Craig to JP: "I know you're hurting. I want to try and help." "It's not our fault. You never told him." Craig loves JP with all his heart and he knows JP will be hurting very much at this time. What he wants to do is be there and comfort JP in his time of need. Apparently, you call someone who sees the love of their life completely devastated and wanting to be with them to comfort and support them, selfish. I suppose ignoring them and not trying to comfort them and instead leaving them to their family would be better? Hmm, that argument doesn't really fly in this case seeing as though JP's mother, who should be there for JP during this time, throws him out of the house! Good thing Craig did offer his support, then, wouldn't you say, Denise? Otherwise, the only person still offering comfort and support to JP in his time of need would be Niall and I think it's safe to say his intentions are less than honorable. I don't think that it does give it a different context, because at that point, it shouldn't have mattered if Kieron knew about JP being back with Craig or not. It should have been about Craig being there for JP. Why did the writers have Craig questioning his sister if Kieron knew about him and JP? As others have stated, Craig could have told him that I'll be here, whenever you need me and then let him be. Why did we need to have a scene of Steph pulling him away from JP, while Niall's there to try and calm JP down? I know that you guys want to defend Craig and his actions during this time, but I just don't see how he wasn't selfish at that point. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this topic. Or, I could just be delusional.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Sept 7, 2008 5:19:24 GMT -5
That's why I'm glad that I'm not the only one to see that the Craig of yester-year is still lurking inside of him, which also makes me sad that it also brings out the JP of yester-year. I see a few of your points, Bonobochick. On one hand, I’m comforted in my original opinion (as stated in my very first post a few months ago) that I would have been majorly disappointed if they had made C do a perfect 180 in regards to his relationship with JP only after 1 year or even 2, as I just found it rather unrealistic. On the other hand, the apparent lack of major change in their dynamics (and C's apparent tendency to fall back into the old pattern when all else fails because it's worked before) might not really bode well for the future for them. Yet, it also seems to strangely confirm my previously stated theory that the “ending” we’ll get for this couple will not be a “sunset ending”, no matter how it turns out. So, I don’t feel cheated mainly because despite always liking the JP/C for what it was, I never envisioned C being completely "changed" as being realistic, nor did I ever wish for a “sunset ending” (those two guys still have realistically years of real growth to accomplish). In sum, some unfortunate turns in a few respects, but it’s still in my world of making sense, even if I understand that it means less than satisfactory results for fans of this ship so far. Yes, I agree with you.
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sozment
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Post by sozment on Sept 7, 2008 7:36:14 GMT -5
I have to agree with BC. I think the JP/C ending has been tarnished with this killing of Kieron. But in the end I'll be very happy if they end up together. I love Craig with JP and want them together forever (much like my Brian/Michael that I never got. ) BUT, I don't see Craig as being selfish at all. Not one bit. That's my thoughts and oh well... enough from me.
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Post by jaymac74 on Sept 7, 2008 7:43:33 GMT -5
Denise - totally agree that JP will feel guilt - that wasn't my point - my point was that I don't think that C was selfish - I think he was distraught - so we'll agree to differ. And he was trying to be there for JP. I don't think it was possible for him to process whether it was appropriate or not.
I also think that part of JP's guilt will be that he will feel that he has ruined K's life, cos he's still in love with his ex, as stated by Hannah.
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Post by jaymac74 on Sept 7, 2008 7:58:59 GMT -5
The convenient setting up for the SE is precisely, because the SE was planned all along - long before K was cast and before his character was even a priest. James,Guy and BK all hinted/said so last year.
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Post by Difficult Diva on Sept 7, 2008 8:26:47 GMT -5
And this is what they came up with after a whole year? The convenient setting up for the SE is precisely, because the SE was planned all along - long before K was cast and before his character was even a priest. James,Guy and BK all hinted/said so last year.
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